Scientific Witches?

[shadowx 0]

This is a weird one. I consider myself "intelligent" and somewhat scientific. I dont mean to make myself seem better than anyone but the scope of this is important.I consider myself a pagan, and i am interesting in learning more of witchcraft or magick. (K is intentional) I have worked with energy before and meditation, i fell out of practice after i once followed Wicca and learned more about it, life changed and i fell out of practice. Ive since turned away from Wicca, it seems far too "love is everything" for me. I also cannot explain the existence of of a god and goddess which are sentient. I can however comprehend the existene of vast reserves or energy due to the fact that according to quantum mechanics such things could in theory exist. Anyway.... The point is this... Are there any intellectuals out there who also believe the existence of witchcraft and magick. Like i said, i dont want to insult anyone here but i read some sites and resources and there are so many spelling and grammar errors, so many silly little problems that suggest the writer has less than average IQ, which concerns me. How can i believe anything they say on such a matter when they seem under-intelligent? What really angers me is things where people claim that things like the Flu, are caused by the god and goddess (of Wiccan and some pagan traditions) when we know it isnt. It is merely genetic code that simply lives in humans and has the adverse effects. This is just foolish drivvle.Anyone?

[BuffaloHelp 24]

Let me share an experience many years back when I was visiting Japan.While I was invited when a company (I cannot name) was opening a brand new facility with the latest technology installed. They featured retina scans for all visitors for identifications. Face recognition for quick track. Finger print and thermo signature to identify and allow access to designated areas. Phone systems followed you even if you leave your office and ring with "special" ring to the phone near by. Hospital built-in in the same building with the latest MRI, CAT scan, virtual surgical environment, you name it they had it.And at the beginning of the opening ceremony I observed the cutting of the ribbon and then smoking of the boar. This was to please the ancient spirits to bless and protect the building and the business.We are at the highest of our technology. The 21st century of modern medicine and computing. We are not traveling to other stars at the speed of warp speed but, never-the-less we are living the science fiction dream. And yet, the company that made so many innovations for the world still practiced ancient old tradition--praying to ancestors for protection. No matter what they have done, the final pull still belonged to the spirits who can make it or break it.It's hard to convince those who believe somethings are supernatural. What I'm talking about is drinking some tea made from leaves and burning candles can actually heal virus infections. I am sure in the past, when our knowledge of medicine wasn't enough, it helped or probably cured many. Which brings me to this point: maybe magic in the past was nothing more than some science experiment(s). It's no secret today if you mix chemical X with chemical Y you get some reaction. In the past that may have been a magic but, today it's science. It takes no magic to run a computer. It's chemical reactions to produce electricity that were stored in a battery format that powered my laptop.And so, to practice magic with the possibility of doing or controlling much more than mere technical gadgets is too far fetched for me. It's going backwards, in my opinion. We are not at the height of our civilization, perhaps not. But we are much advanced than those eras where magic and witchcraft were practiced.

[mahesh2k 0]

What really angers me is things where people claim that things like the Flu, are caused by the god and goddess (of Wiccan and some pagan traditions) when we know it isnt. It is merely genetic code that simply lives in humans and has the adverse effects. This is just foolish drivvle.

I wonder people who claim about knowledge from scriptures as scientific found any cure about swine flu, AIDS so far ?

I'm agree with BH on some points. We are advancing and are definitely much better than celt and mayans on many ways. Besides that sci-fi texts helped more than anything in my opinion. In early 90's there was movies of paper displays, touch screens and that technology was not there in that time. But now we are seeing the results. We are advancing slowly but much better than those temple/monument builders in my opinion. We have managed to get our knowledge across globe, we have managed to cure diseases which used to be curse earlier, we have managed to do many things which were not possible and which earlier civilizations failed to do so.

[anwiii 17]

darnit darnit darnit!!! i had posted a long post earlier in this thread. now i am thinking i accidentally posted it in another thread or it just mysteriously disapeard so if someone finds this mysterious post somewhere....please redirect it here.i will sum up my post in a few words though. science and technology has NOTHING to do with paganism and wicca....and i personally will believe in nature over science any day of the week.i don't practice any one religion since they all have something to offer, but they are all still subjective to the rules and beliefs.someone once told me that there are time limits and a god or goddess can take us away as easily as they have brought us here....and the time limits can come in any form. it's just another way of saying we all have a purpose in life and a so-called destiny to fullfill. not everyone lives to be a hundred....and there are reasons for it beyond any scientific explaination. that is my belief.

[shadowx 0]

This could prove an interesting discussion actually upon the importance of magick in everyday life.

Just to clear up the "k" in magick is used by some pagans/witches to show they mean witchcraft rather than card tricks. I use it out of habit now for the same reason...

Which brings me to this point: maybe magic in the past was nothing more than some science experiment(s). It's no secret today if you mix chemical X with chemical Y you get some reaction

This is almost exactly what i believe. Lets take harry potter as an example (stay with me here...) we are shown in the films and told in the story of moving pictures. Taken using a magical camera and then printed onto paper with some magical device the static pictures can wave, smile, talk and even interact in some instances with the observer. Fastforward to lets say, 2100 and i can almost assure you that this will become reality. A video camera would be needed to record a small clip and then implanted using bio-electrical circuits and displays into a paper like display.

My point here is that magick is simply science we do not yet understand. Interestingly i was thinking the other day thanks to inspiration from a website about crystals. We know the science behind a crystal. It is a lattice of atoms arranged in smooth, flat sheets atop each other making a smooth crystal structure. Now, the basis for most magcik is vibration, the theory that everything vibrates, for example as a living person i vibrate slowly, i am not attuned to the universe and as living entity i am on the lowest plane of existence (in my belief there are 7, the 7th is the living world here and at the bottom, the 1st is where a "god" would reside, many religions call the 1st heaven as it is a place of infinite energy, bright, almost sacred if you will) Now, back to my point... Everything vibrates, the ancients knew this long before science discovered in sometimes in the 18-1900's i think... Now, the ancients and most modern witches appreciate the power of a crystal to channel energy, direct it, form it etc.... Science also recently discovered this ability, early radios were based on crystals (and still may be). These crystals (i think) of quartz are used (i think) as timing devices and possibly even as a sending device to project the information out in the form of a radio wave. Your watch would not work without these crystals. How is it that the ancients knew of their power before us?

The ancients also propose the idea of multiple universes along the lines of the various planes of existence. They recognised that we do not go to another place when we die, like another world or planet or location but instead we are in the same place but on a difference plane, or in a different, parallel universe. Science is now trying to find these planes.

If science is able to find these planes of existence does it mean they are no longer magickal? Yes, by definition it does because magick is essentially a reaction caused by a trigger who's method of operation we do not understand. As technology explains these things scientifically they simply change names to scientific.

I have witnessed some otherworldly things, as a young child i described an imaginary friend perfectly. Turned out i had described a "dead" relative who died as an infant. My mum would attend a psychic circle where they would communicate with spirits, often she would see these spirits out our home (before i was aware of my own existence, either i was too young to remember or i was not born) my dad was a skeptic, and still is, however one night she saw a shadow walk through the room and she didnt mention it, he then turned to her and said something to the effect of "is that one of yours?" casually. He too had seen the shadow and there was no physical explanation.

There is too much evidence for these things and yet i find myself torn between three states...

One is the cold hearted cynic. Love is nothing buy a biological process designed to make me have intercourse which in itself is designed to make me have kids and further my species. Love acts as a binding to ensure i look after my partner and young to give the child the best start in life and ensure its survival. The feeling i get from seeing the sunrise is nothing but a reaction of my body to the coming sunlight which will enable my skin to create Vitamin E from it's light. The joy i get from seeing wild animals is nothing but my brain being happy at the fact there is food should i need it.

then there is the Scientist within me. The one that tells me some things may be real however it is not all romance and fairytails. This part tells me that death is an impossibility due to the quantum mechanics of not being able to observe death of myself hence it cannot happen. Instead the universe splits and i live on, despite being dead in all other universes. This part tells me there is no soul, magick is mainly an illusion but can be effective through positive thinking. IE if i try to move a car for fun i wont be able to, however if i psyche myself up and there is an old lady under its tyres slowly dying i would find the strength and probably be able to move the car. This isnt magick as such but it would work. (EG if i want a job and dont believe in myself then i may cast a spell to help me, i would then believe in myself and go in feeling positive, enhancing the chance of me getting the job, is that magick? *shrugs*

Then there is the pagan within me. A spirit waiting to grasp the power of the universe and channel its floes into immense defences and powerful healing. To ward off the dark and strike at its heart should it attempt to attack me. The witch within.

Reading articles written by people who cant understand the science behind the sun for example and truly believe it is a god simply pushes me to the cynic. Telling me that these people are deluded, and yet i feel the tug from the universe, the forest and my inner self. I seek to talk with those who understand that the sun gods are simply a personification of a force which we have no control other. Much in the same way a scientist may call nature "mother earth" he does not believe nature is a goddess or a mother, but merely gives it a personality.

Like i said, i do believe in vast energies in the universe, some of which we call gods and goddess, IMHO all are the same. The universal energy is neutral, it has no personality, nor conscious, but we can still form it with thought, will and our own energy... I can create out of it a ball of immense energy, pure light beaming from my being and commune with it, though it cannot reply for it has no mind or brain however it can react...

I realize this post is long, but i wish to show my yearning for the arts and my enthusiasm and yet my doubts in the classical explanations which have no place in a modern world.

Tell me how you feel about witchcraft, magick and its existence, what do you think it is capable of?

And if you think the craft is evil then please, stay out of this discussion. This is not a place for narrow-mindedness, in fact if you feel this way i would urge you to create a new topic about your feelings so we may discuss it further.

[Misanthrope 0]

I happen to appreciate all things weird. Growing up in drizzly Seattle, Washington where the sun shines a mere fraction of the year, weird was the order of the day. And even on sunny days, our family on more than unusual occasion would find itself drawn to a very weird store hugging the shores of rainy Puget Sound. Our dear Mother often gave us tours of Ye Ole Curiosity Shope, where all manner of dead things exhibited themselves in bizarre, sometimes hideous, but always macabre form. Shrunken heads from the Americas, mummies hailed from the near east, and the poor, poor sea horses shriveled up, dried up and sold as mere trinkets to the vulgar tourist spectator.

 

Weird. The mere mention of the word implies something out of the oh-so limited dimension we find ourselves shackled in, something out of the work-a-day normal hell. When I hear references to the word, I must admit - my soul rejoices! To think, another soul may at last be breaking free from its shackles!

 

Thoughts initiated in this thread are enlightened, intelligent, and original, and thereby?creative. So it only follows the man asserting them possesses the same qualities. I see no reason for topic starter to apologize for possession of the heightened awareness he obviously possesses, and wishes to accent. Same difference. I am sick and tired of hearing intelligent folk apologize for their mental prowess! When was the last time you heard a geek apologize for knowing too much code? It's ok to be an arrogant geek, but the true genius is feared and ridiculed. Contrary to the vulgarized paradigm we find ourselves in, I suspect we are not actually born into this world on equal footing, or what some refer to as being born ?equal.? One need only look at a snowflake to view the disparity. Each one is decidedly different. Divine in it?s own right, yes, but different?. individual. Suggesting all men are ?equal? (in the current politically correct dialectic) does injustice to the human spirit, as it shackles it the lowest common denomator.

 

I relate to topic starters concerns as nowadays, the majority of schools preach ?all is love and light? when in fact hereditary and/or knowledgeable practioners understand that simply isn?t the case. There are always two sides of the story in this dualist reality we find ourselves in. If there is light, there is darkness. And unless you are an ascended master, I don?t care how much ?love and light? you put out there, you must not only acknowledge invasive energies, but take proactive steps to keep them from entering your circle.

 

Topic starter may wish to consult earlier incarnations of modern metaphysics, before the whole thing turned into a three-ring Wiccan/New Age circus for the unwashed masses. The majority of ?magickal? websites are pure, unadulterated trash, so look to pre-Gardnian thought for serious literature. Obviously the traditions are real as history is replete with in-your-face evidence. Interesting that quantum physics be brought up. I recently listened to a lecture by a specialist who wasn?t a physicist himself. I think he?s actually an electronics engineer. None-the-less his peer-review documentation made a compelling case dispelling the science vs. magic drift. The two are the same, as any true practioner knows.

[shadowx 0]

thanks for the support

I am always wary of blowing my own trumpet by suggesting i know more than some other people, it may be true but alas they arent so keen to agree... Not that im a genius of course, i simply absorb what i read and i cant stand not understanding something which is why i work with computers, the thought of not knowing how these characters get from keyboard to screen would drive me mad until i eventually research it.

I agree with what you say about neo-paganism being full of rubbish, WIcca to me is a prime example of this. I apologise to any Wiccans reading this, i once consider myself a near Wiccan, without an initiation rite i would not call myself Wiccan. But the Wiccan rede and tradition teaches never to cause harm in any manner.

"An it harm none, do as ye will" This is a perfect ideology. if i want to have weird sexual orgies or indulge in a little drunkenness or even paint my house pink black and green then its fine, so long as i harm none. And i support this idea which is in fact very closely related to some of the ideas in Satanism (Not devil worship. Satanists do not believe in any form of devil or god.) However, consider this. You stand in battle against 10 men, all equally armed as yourself, all armoured, the only difference being instead of a sword you have 2 immensely strong shields. How long would you expect to last? Sure, your shields will defend you, but can you really outlast the 10 soldiers trying desperately to sever you limb from limb? Of course not. They will tire but there are 10 of them and one of you. You're dead!

The only option is to take up a sword, block their attacks and strike back with your own, aiming for their arms and legs, preventing their attacks and advance. But according to Wicca your only option is to stand and die. This is where i disagree vastly with the Wiccan teachings. As you touched upon Wicca is a new age religion. It is indeed based upon those ideas of older traditions and as such it seems to have a lot of credibility but it also lacks the wisdom. Like a young priest embarking into the world believing hi and his god can convert the world and make everyone happy he is yet to learn that shadow and light need to bent together to achieve success in anything. You cannot have defence without offence, you cannot cleans without eradication and you cannot work with the light without understating its equal. This is not to say you must work with dark energies but you cannot discount them, particularly in defensive situations. I would equate this to computer security... How can i stop a hacker if i dont know how to hack? I cant. To defend you need to know how to attack so you can anticipate the actions.

None-the-less his peer-review documentation made a compelling case dispelling the science vs. magic drift. The two are the same, as any true practioner knows.

This is where i draw my solace from. I know in my mind that what i am doing is not mystical, or special even. It is something that many do not understand or know of but it isnt true magick, it is merely the application of my mind and body as a technology, a tool, to influence the universe. I do think that in time we will develop machines that can amplify this, perhaps telepathic devices that do not use radio waves but instead follow more closely the telepathy often regarded as magick and told in stories, we will develop devices to control the energies of the universe, lets not forget that something like 80-90% of the universe simply isnt there... we cant find it, see it, detect it. We only know it is there because of its effects on the universe. What if this energy that we cant find is in fact the magickal energy that we talk of?

With regards to all men being equal i am unsure... There are the obvious examples of this not being true with mutations, IQ differences and the visual differences that everyone has. However does that mean our souls or spirits are not equal? I dont know... In my theory i do not know where spirits come from, nor exactly where they go. However re-incarnation is not something i subscribe to, it may be possible i dont know. So that means that souls must be made of something. Everything is made of something, so does that mean there is a limited number of souls that can be made? Or are we recycled in some way? Perhaps the universal energy is as infinite as the universe itself, in which case i would argue that all spirits are created equal perhaps by a natural process whereby the body needs a commander in the form of its soul or spirit which uses the body's eyes, ears etc... to help it survive (let's not forget that your body is not really one organism but rather made up of millions of cells, each one desperate to survive regardless of your survival, so it stands to reason that by banding together they can ensure that the heart cells will send the muscle cells the oxygen they need and in return the stomach cells will provide both with the food they need while the muscles and skin cells shield the stomach cells from attack... IN this theory the soul is simply created to make decisions)

Another long post... but i am passionate about this and i plan of going to stonehenge in the southwest of england for the winter solstice. I would like to create a staff for use in magickal workings too, however obtaining wood is a problem...

This is a really interesting post though and i would love to hear other "rational" explanations of the supernatural.

[anwiii 17]

first, two things to clear things up. witches are female. warlocks are malesecond, it's vitamin D the skin absorbes. not vitamin Eit's interesting to see you question things. from my observations, you have more of a science view than a cynic side. and your cynic side outweighs the pagan in you.my question is....how is discussing this going to even help you. what's the point of it.we are raised a certain way from the day we are born. for most of us, we have to break free from it because what we were taught and how we were guided wasn't really 100% us at the time. it was just our parents thinking they know what's best until we are old enough to make our own decisions and choices. in the same way we have to break away from our original guidance, we have to break away from society as well. society dictates certain things in life which are always 100% true to ourselves either. so....we have to break away. science is good, and science has proven many things. at the same time, it hasn't disproven many things either. also, science will never be able prove or disprove certain things specifically related to us in general. we are all born special and unique and some things are only known TO that individual. what they know about themselves.wicca is newage. i don't consider wicca a religion after all the curiosity seekers started to want to learn witchcraft when they didn't even know what wicca was all about. different circles practice different things. so i would think that maybe each circle practices their own religion and just calling it wicca. also...all wicca is is an offset of the pagan religion itself and there are many offsets to it. not just wicca. all pagans believe there is a soul/spirit and they believe in reincarnation through each lifetime.what is really strange to me, being born studying christianity and the bible til i was 17, i was lost as a kid after high school and until i was in my early thirties. i remember thinking alot about who i was and what like is and how life related to me specifically. one day, the answers to a lot of my questions....more than NAMELESS could ever ask in this forum came to me in an instant. a rush of answers....over a hundred.....and over a period of about 2 minutes. i remember wanting to write everything down, but i couldn't. thoughts were coming too quick. it was a god like experience i will never forget as someone or something was talking to me and guiding me in that instant. most of my beliefs came from that experience. what is strange as well is that a couple years later, i was drawn to read about pagans and the religion. and to compare my beliefs that came out of that unusual day, and the thoughts i had aftwards to really define my beliefs to pagan beliefs was uncanny. i never studied the pagan ways before so it was very exciting to me to find such an old religion to where it matched up to my beliefs almost 100%.so, i found something inside me that science can never define. i am not a cynic, and i have experienced things that can be explained within my own beliefs and knowing certain truths where others will consider it unexplainable.....or they will try to give an explaination other that what is true. "energy" to me is a name given to those things in which i cannot explain. i wont use the term energy to ghosts or spirits or spiritual guides, gods, godesses, or the devine. but i will use the term energy to those things that i experience that even i cannot explain. it is a gereral term as energy surounds us all and as we ARE that energy as well and connected.BUT! even though i have very similar beliefs to the pagans, i don't practice it. i don't believe in practicing any one religion as my beliefs stretch further than the pagan religion. i will also never worship any one god....although i will pray from time to time. but i wont light candles or do any rituals for the most part. although i will meditate from time to time.....or try to sometimes it's hard for me....especially in the last year or so. it always helped me become closer to nature and the goodness that surounds us all.one last thing....for me....i would rather believe in love this and love that......rather than hate this and hate that. for me, true love comes from a deep deep understanding.

[shadowx 0]

Interesting....

first, two things to clear things up. witches are female. warlocks are malesecond, it's vitamin D the skin absorbes. not vitamin E

I stand corrected on the second statement. However i will have to disagree with the second statement. Some circles or covens or even individuals will indeed agree with you, however i think the majority (or atleast a very significant percentage if not the majority) would disgree. I was taught by websites, books and forums that a witch is one who practices the craft of witchcraft generally to "good" ends, regardless of gender. A warlock is one who also practices the craft but is untrustworthy, someone who would willingly delve into darker magick, and not always for "good" but instead to cause trouble. They arent necessarily "evil" however as a practitioner of the light you would avoid associating yourself with a warlock. This is similar to male nurses showing the difference between a doctor, which is traditional more male dominated, and a nurse which was, until recently, a title used for essentially female doctors as well as those who aid the doctors and surgeons etc...

The term Wizard can be used but that brings up connotations of fairytales which is a bad image to use. Personally i dont yet classify myself as a witch, simply as a pagan. My magickal experience is far too low for me to classify myself as a witch in respect of those who have devoted their life and energy to almost earn the title of being a witch.

What do i seek to gain from this thread? Interesting... mainly just to discuss my views and opinions with those who are equally minded and intelligent people. To try to wade through the fog and murk of miss-information and talk rationally about things we cant explain. To seek rational, almost scientific advice from which we can strengthen ourselves and generally see what others think from a scientific-religious point of view. Theories for how and why magick works, who if anyone is out there in the form of powerful entities of gods/goddesses etc....

i don't believe in practicing any one religion as my beliefs stretch further than the pagan religion

I agree with you here but for slightly different reasons. I use the term "pagan" to refer to any person who believes in supernatural entities such as ghosts, gods, goddesses, spirits etc... and magickal energy, either through ritual, spells, talismans etc... technically this would involve those who use animal or human sacrifice but i extend its definition to exclude those types of religions and extend it to those religions and individuals who are nature based, druidic, celtic, aboriginal etc...

Under that banner i class myself as pagan. However i do not believe in gods and goddesses as sentient beings in the "organized religion" sense (meaning Christianity, Judaism, Islam and to an extent Bhudism.) instead i perceive them as embodiments of the universe's energy. They may or may not appear this way when travelling in the astral planes. For example if i attuned myself to the higher vibrations after death i do not know if i could be able to see (for lack of a better word) the god and goddess which to me represent the duality of the universe and the male/female nature of everything as well as the elegance and power of everything combines) or if i would simply perceive a vast, powerful energy of greatness with the perception of duality. So based on that i feel i differ from the majority of pagan religions and traditions. Having said that i will still thank the god and goddess for a beautiful sunset even though i am simply talking to the universe. I would also use their names and other representations during rituals, purely to invoke the power of the universe in its dual nature. I do not believe that any sentient god like being would join me in that space but it would allow me to tap into the vast energies in the universe and relate to them as beings, rather than things i cannot possibly comprehend.

one last thing....for me....i would rather believe in love this and love that......rather than hate this and hate that. for me, true love comes from a deep deep understanding.

so would i, however life has taught me that simply seeking to see only love and happiness does not mean hate and despair arent there. And anything that exists must be dealt with on some level. I would strive to drive off dark influences around myself and others, but i cannot pledge to you now that i will never seek to control darker energies. The overall goal of doing so would be for the "good" if such a thing exists, i would not curse or bind simply for pleasure but would only do so as a last resort of protection, like cutting the arms from a perpetual attacker, removing his weapons.

[anwiii 17]

oh i disagree with this concept entirely as far as defense and offense. with your shield and sword example, even if you pull your sword, you are most likely going to die. the only real difference would be is how many men YOU kill. to truely defend yourself it to out think and outsmart your attackers while running is always a good option. as far as hackers. i learned my hacking skills 25 years ago. i never used them to defend against hackers and that is certainly not why i learned. sometimes a good "defense" can get you in trouble and bite your in your butt.

people need to make a choice in how they wish to live. sure, there are those that seek the middle ground for defense and offense, but they really don't.

i am 6'4 and went to an integrated school where the blacks seemed to always want to pick fights with me. i later understood it wasn't anything personal, but it was to show their worth if they can seek out the biggest guy and humiliate him. i wasn't a fighter for the most part. i was always on defense. my thinking back then is if i ever fought back and hurt someone, i wouldn't feel good about myself. i would dodge punches. not throw 'm. i wasn't an angel back then either, but for the most part, my multiple suspensions were uncalled for because i wasn't usually the problem.

when talking about light energies and dark energies or light magick and dark magick, you don't need to learn the ways of a dark worker just to protect yourself being a light worker. first of all, there are usually only two ways a light worker could get harmed. they practice the dark and make themselves more suseptable to it.....or.....they don't hide themselves well enough to where you would at times be a target for someone who want to play. this is why conversations in threads like these need to be done respectively and cautiously. you don't want to sound the bells of what you practice so some idiot can play games with you. it can be dangerous and that is just irresponsibility on some peoples parts.

and i will give an example. i studied martial arts when i was in my 20's. first important thing i learned was that no matter how good you are, there is always someone better. secondly, never practice in public. you sound the bells telling others who you are and to start a fight to where now you are in a conflict that you could have easily avoided. a conflict to test how good you really are. bad bad bad idea.

i tell you this shadowx so i hope you never have to learn these lessons the hard way....especially if you are ever going to mix light and dark magick thinking they will create a balance for you AND is needed to protect.

do i believe in the supernatural? you betcha! as i have already experience alot of it in different forms. i just don't practice anything that i know about including light and dark magick. the dark has always intrigued me, but i have had the discipline to stay away from it completely as i don't practice within the light either. once in a blue moon, i dabble and exmeriment with the supernatural. i don't have to practice ANYTHING to believe in it and i don't have to practice anything to fulfill my personal beliefs or define who i am. but i will believe in the wiccan's crede....which practices "harm none"....and here is the catch. it includes yourself. drinking is harmfull to your health. also, if you ever do decide to practice any dark magick, i suggest you don't drink as it will leave you more suseptable to harm.

You cannot have defence without offence, you cannot cleans without eradication and you cannot work with the light without understating its equal. This is not to say you must work with dark energies but you cannot discount them, particularly in defensive situations. I would equate this to computer security... How can i stop a hacker if i dont know how to hack? I cant. To defend you need to know how to attack so you can anticipate the actions.

[shadowx 0]

"harm none"....and here is the catch. it includes yourself. drinking is harmfull to your health. also, if you ever do decide to practice any dark magick, i suggest you don't drink as it will leave you more suseptable to harm.

I do agree completely, (the drinking example was a fairly poor one, i give you that )

However i cannot live by only putting my faith in "the light" which is a term i will use to describe magick for good causes. Back to my computer security analogy, as a programmer i cannot possibly defend my creations without first knowing how to attack them. An example is SQL injection. The long and short of it is that by entering a username as: ' OR 1=1; (or something very similar) i can effectively bypass any unsecured system. It simply tells the database that if the number 1, is the same as the number 1 (which of course it is) then i should be logged in, or it will cause an error and show me a password or two. My early codes were not protected against this, but as soon as i learned how to exploit this i also learned to "escape" the input to prevent it. Sure, someone could have taught me to always use a certain line of code or all hell breaks loose but that doesnt further my education.

For example, let's hypothetically say that some magickal attack consisted of shaping an amount of energy into a sharp point and sending it at the target. Now, i could be told to defend myself simply via a shield that is reflective and flat, but if the energy was strong enough it would pierce it like paper, so instead if i were to learn how the spear of energy is made, and how it penetrates perhaps i could put up a layered shield much like layered body armour and stop the attack. Of course this is merely hypothetical and i have no doubt it is also wrong, but the principal i believe is correct. To defend an attack you must first know how that attack is formed and how it comes at you.

I did some martial arts (karate) before leaving due to irritation from my stepbrother who has ADHD and is just plain stupid... Anyway... i was there for a brief sneeze of time and learned very very little of the art, however the first thing taught is to avoid conflict. Just because you *could* defend against an intruder doesnt mean you leave your doors unlocked. So i understand your point about "cloaking" for want of a better word, in a magickal sense but as im sure you understand if you and i were in martial combat and i were to attack you with, lets say, a flail, it would be somewhat difficult to defend against with delicate body parts, if however you had wielded a flail, or even watched it being wielded and used and learned of exactly how one attacks with a flail then you could accurately gauge that as i swing the flail from left to right i am likely to strike on the return stroke from right to left and so you could aim a fist to my opened body as i changed stance for an attack and effectively get a free hit before moving out of the way of the now erratic flail attack. If however you had never seen a flail in action your chances would be limited.

The analogy is not perfect however i think it works. One must have an understanding of magickal attack before magickal defence can be 99% effective. However, that does not mean you need to or should research attack before defence. In a magickal world you will need the defence to safely learn of the attack as you eluded to. There are the basic defences of shields, invocations, and general positive energy, but that wont stop someone determined.

My understanding is still limited in the magickal world, and my experience even smaller. I have no intentions of learning any dark arts however i cannot rule it out as being needed to achieve my ultimate goals of strong protection.

[anwiii 17]

well, before i go, because i haven't gotten any sleep last night and it's now 8:30 and going to bed....i just want to state something else i learned...never box a boxer, and never wrestle a wrestler.which means, you can learn all you want to "protect" yourself.....but in the end you will realize that what you protected yourself from can actually hurt you.now warlock has many definitions attatched to it so i guess it falls in line with just about any definition. it's what you think it means. but as the word warlock has something negative attached to it by some people....well....so does the word witch. if people want to consider warlocks as traitors, then we can look at witches as those who fly around on broomsticks. i wouldn't believe everything you read, either, shadowx. especially on the internet. for the most part....especially ones who are true witches or hereditary ones....generations....living and dead, you wont even come close to finding information on the internet.if paganism intrigues you, you might want to study celtic mythology as the religion itself is very similar.sorry that i don't have any comments about science relating to witches. i think the belief in most witches are nature based. one thing to think about is this though. if there was no nature, there would be no science. the same is not true in reverse. think about what that means before you even attempt to try and compare the two.

[shadowx 0]

I understand that the internet is full of absolute rubbish, and you may be correct in your definition of warlocks Vs Witches, but to me a warlock does have negative connotations, i play world of warcraft (dont bang on me about WoW and paganism and the differences and everything else... i was interested in paganiosm before i heard of WoW) and the Warlock character there is one who uses demons and demonic magic, also warlocks in the media are presented as negative, their mere name implies battle (WARlock) and sounds to me something like "one who is at war, or uses magick for war") the thing with magick is it is very personal, so in essence neither definition is wrong. I would almost err on describing myself as a pagan/druid due to my absolute reverence for nature which isnt a requisite of witchcraft.

never box a boxer, and never wrestle a wrestler.
which means, you can learn all you want to "protect" yourself.....but in the end you will realize that what you protected yourself from can actually hurt you.

An interesting quote, and im sure it is quite true. However i still stand by the fact that you cannot defend without at least some knowledge of an attack. This does not mean you will need to experiment with darker magick, or in our examples it doesnt mean you need to be a hacker to stay safe nor learn to use a sword to be able to use a shield, however... without the knowledge of how a curse, a virus, or a sword works how can you expect to prepare an adequate defence? IMHO you cant. For example a sword and a battle hammer are vastly different in their applications and their weaknesses. A sword is faster and due to that much weaker, so your defenses can be better tailored instead of having a very heavy, strong shield a lighter one would offer the same protection and free up some weight which you could use to wear protective shin/leg armour whereas against an axe or mace the shield needs to be very sturdy.

IMHO this is applicable to magickal defence too. If you know there are faster, smaller attacks that try to consistently wear down defences then you would perhaps use a defence magick whereby the shield is slightly weaker but still adequate and conserve energy, whereas if you anticipate a massive attack in one burst your shield needs to be top quality and as strong as possible.

Celtic lore and mythology does interest me, purely as story more than anything. I know that some traditions have their feet in myths and lore and that some things resulting from lore and myth are effective. It is interesting though, especially when one sees its influence on the modern day society.

Relating to science V religion IMHO they are one. Religion is simply the stuff that science is yet to understand or perhaps cannot understand due to the fallibility of the human brain and technology has its fundamental weaknesses. As a scientific person i question everything, the things i cannot question i deem as worthy of research.

you wont even come close to finding information on the internet.

This is one of the many hurdles facing a solitary practitioner, every coven has their own book of shadows which is cloaked in secrecy, and for good reason. Personally i think that some things can come from feelings alone, for example affinity to certain herbs, elements, locations etc... If i have learned anything about the craft it is that the ingredients are not that important. It is what you do with them that matters, and how you believe they work. The power ultimately comes from the energy, channelled from the universe through yourself and the objects you choose. IMHO at least the objects are focussing aids and "tanks" to hold the energy and direct it. The exception in my eyes is crystals who's role i feel is linked intrinsically to the crystal itself. Even from a young age i identified with quartz as a powerful channelling agent. Long before i knew that paganism even existed.


I am still really interested in hearing from other "intelligent" spiritualists and their views.

(again, i mean no offence, nor to make myself appear higher than anyone else here, but i want to avoid the twaddle that usually follows such discussion.)

[blabber 0]

Many are very spiritual and live a spiritual means and way of life ,at same Time some are just birth and taught certain means right from a infant within spiritual means ,that is strong , has its roots in the ancient nature religions of this Earth that goes ,way back in Time . It holds standard and complete principally Deep-rooted in the old religions ,from generations to generations . How one was raised ,taught in old ways of life ,that is passed down from generations to generations ,guided with in the young that are born to live a certain way of life ,does not really mean a belief or religion that is instilled in the young ,more a journey that one is birth to take ,from very first breath one shall ever take on earth . Generations seek this ,before thy birth ,preparing in own self in this journey for thy child way before thy birth . Each journey for young ,never is thy same ,as it becomes more of a life's journey that ,as adult for that child ,no matter how one disagrees or wishes to live a life as simple as society likes to dictate to each of us ,is the way ,to be or way to live within normal limits ,it seems to unravel sooner or later ,in the destiny of that journey ,that was created way before that child birth . Many now days ,become ,witches in their own divine beliefs or shall I say ,some like call them Guardians ,or Protectors ,that they are self taught to hold strong ,connection to follow certain ways ,that brings the name witch,those to some are consider ,adoptive of sword of protection ,in other words ,true witches birth within this world need ,these types of witches ,to protect ,those on earth that holds a journey ,to be traveled that goes beyond most understanding within society ,common sense . These protectors are ones that can freely ,discuss certain things out in Public ,as they are teaching themselves ,with what they read ,listen an gain from others or what one can guide them ,as they self teach ,through out their own lives ,These can live a productive Lifestyles ,that becomes so open and revealing that ,some that are birth to generations of witches ,shall not become so open as their birth to more secretive life ,within protecting not just themselves ,protecting generations ,old and new . As far as a balance of Light and Dark ,each person holds another side to themselves ,this is typical nothing of unknown ,sometimes another person can bring out that other side ,and combined together ,when never understood or seen ,can become a destructive balance ,upon two having combined life style or relationship throughout there lives shared together . Then there goes beyond the unknown ,that balance of light and dark ,practicing the dark ,when one is birth ,within thy light ,and holds journey through the light in seeking the good ,through all things ,you find this spirit ,traveling through one life time ,that exist in mixture of many hurts ,that seems to be unraveling ,a life that ,becomes filled with turmoil of damaging structures ,A person that seems to always attract ,trouble ,certain people that ,at end of knowing these people ,seem always be results of something not so good ,to society ,When in truths ,to that certain person living that way of life ,it becomes a teaching tool ,to not just that one person experiencing ,those drama's ,although becomes teaching guidance that goes from generation to generations . There becomes a strong purpose to understand certain means of journeys ,that is needed for the future young ,to be understood ,in their own journey's that are to be lived . Some Take on journeys that ,actually becomes a life filled with ,so much hurt and destruction ,for one purpose in their own lives ,although when you meet someone like this in our own lives ,we normal will hand down ,cruel labels with judgment upon that person that holds no understanding at all ,that goes beyond anything one persons mind could ,actually hold any common ground ,to believing only in What one shall experience for themselves in Life . Although the one ,that holds that journey ,will always see the Good ,through out their life ,despite the bad events that unraveled within their own lives or the attraction they seem to attach themselves towards certain people within this Journey . Back in old Times ,we held burning Times ,Where on that ,accused of wrongs or any superstitions of being abnormal or holding any witchcraft that could not be truly understood or hold any facts ,weather they were midwifes or natural healing ,anything of being normal within limits and expectations ,of How this world shall see ,each be living .Anything beyond ,people were burned . Now days ,we are still burning those same People that ,do not fit into our mind that ,is living a certain manner or ways ,fit in society .Although we do not drag these people out ,to tie them to a stake and set them to blaze ,we do ,burn them ,as we did in olden ways ,We just offer it in different manner ,till they become outcast or emotional damaged . Crushing their Spirit ,till they are left ,with a mind that becomes destructive ,to fight their way out those Fires ,to their journey that is meant to be since birth . So there is a Truth in how others see ,certain people through their own eyes ,that can be as living in Burning Times ,for those that ,are birth from generations ,that needs protecting from these Journeys . Those Birth in Generations ,there soul is intertwined with more that one shall ever have acknowledgment of understanding ,that combines one soul with attachments of many in one Journey through a life time towards the next . Everything in occurrence in one Life ,holds a purpose a meaning ,that shall never be in tuned into one state of mind frame ,as there goes beyond ,why one shall have certain dream or certain change in personality ,or a life style that ,holds ,experiences that ,can not be explained with any logical thought . To those Birth in Generations ,old ways ,There is a truth in Time frames and connection ,that is instilled within their Life from birth ,When certain things takes affect ,sometimes there becomes a struggle to maintain those Time frames ,when one can not ,those journeys of generations will soon unravel slowly ,as all that bind them together ,soon seem to be floating through a life time ,cycle that becomes lost in time ,till all ,joins within a moon phase that connects once again .Bringing forth a journey that holds divine protection against from what we still call those burning Times . There is thy unknown out there ,we each live among ,many things that shall never go explained .No matter How shall seek out those answers . There will always be lingering filter of thy unknown that ,will always linger through one in Life ,never having answers to ,what one actually seen or experienced ,although there will always be what may look like ,just changing within time ,those Burning Times .Some will just stay without a voice through one Journey .

[networker 0]

I wish I were a witch. I badly wish I were a witch,or warlock rather! As a matter of factI so badly wish I were a warlock that it's indescribable. I mean,if I were a warlock I'd have magic powers, at least that's what I've readabout in the newspaper.Just to think I'd be able to have anything I wanted by just simply casting a spell!Why can't it be so?Fact is though, without the title you just don't have the mojo whatsoever.It's all in a title isn't it? I'd rather be called a warlock than have a stupid knighthoodor be president of the us of a.Ah well. Such is life.