How You Justify Piracy? let the debate begin

[Baniboy 3]

This is what I've been wondering, people that download illegal content free from internet/torrents and stuff... how you justify that?It's like stealing, just like you were on a store and you just took some movies and put them under your coat. I don't think internet downloading will ever stop artists from making music and hollywood to not produce any films but still it's wrong, it's illegal and I think you have nothing to grab on when you try to justify illegal downloading.Note: please don't spam, and keep the posts clean and don't provide links to other sites that might have illegal content in them (or the torrents).

Edited February 17, 2009 by baniboy (see edit history)

[Xalor 0]

I used to pirate a couple of things though like Adobe Software, in the beginning, because 30 days is not a long time to use it, so I used it for a bit, but then buckled down and bought it because I couldn't make anything commercial and feel okay about it. I say that one can justify it by saying that, if its on the internet its legal. Its up there for a download, and if its free who can't say no. Its not that its illegal but its so tempting, to download it, while you have no problems, its simple and quick to use. Its really hard to not do it nowadays. Thousands of torrent sites, with all these downloads. Some people don't know that its even pirating. I thought it was legal to download music from Limewire even, or some people could think that when the movies are up on torrent sites its legal, I had not known and was downloading a couple, never worked for me since I couldn't figure out what divX meant anyway.

[rvalkass 5]

It's like stealing, just like you were on a store and you just took some movies and put them under your coat.

Whether you agree with piracy or not, that is a flawed and incorrect analogy. When you walk into a shop and take a DVD without paying, the retailer has lost a physical product, and cannot replace it. If you download something, you make a copy - nothing is ever lost. This is the crucial difference that people don't seem to get.

 

The counterargument from the movie studios/RIAA/whoever is that they "lose a sale". This is very often not the case. The people that download things do so because they are not worth paying for, and they would never buy them in the first place. No sale has been lost.

[rayzoredge 2]

I can see how "potential" sales can be lost when people download "copies" of programs, music, video, and whatnot. That could be a point in the RIAA/MPAA/whatever's favor.

 

However, this is the way I see it:

 

With programs, you are downloading a copy of it to utilize and essentially, try out. For the majority of pirates that jump onto the bandwagon ship, I don't think there are much if any that actually utilize illegally-downloaded software for commercial applications. I would see it as wrong to make money off of products that were made by a program that the person didn't even pay a license for in the first place. However, I don't see much in the way of obtaining software for personal use. You may "lose" potential sales in the private sector, but the commercial sector will very well make up and even supercede your return on investment, in my opinion. And if it doesn't, it's most likely because the software is inferior. *coughVistacough* Also, I believe that most licenses are valid for one running copy of the program at a time. If I want to work using Photoshop on two computers, what's the incentive for me to run both at the same time? Even if I did for some odd reason, would it kill anyone? (Now, if you deployed the same program on multiple computers with multiple users, that's a different story.)

 

As for games, there aren't enough pirates to take away much of a PC game's sales. I believe the figure is up to 25%, which can be rather significant, but that's why you try to port your games to other consoles and expand your sales to cater to more audiences (owners of different consoles). Again, the try-before-you-buy concept applies here. There are some games that seem good but become a waste of money when you realize that they are buggy, crappy, or not what you expected. Some don't even run on select systems, like one of our Xisto members here who now can't play Age of Empires due to a hardware/software incompatibility (and not an inferior system). And of course, if you like a game on your PC that doesn't run it well, maybe you'll like it better with refined graphics on your XBox 360 or PS3 when you go out and buy the game legitimately.

 

For music, the whole idea of it all is to share what you've made. Music is a great thing... and I understand the whole plight of trying to make it in the music industry with the dread that you won't make any money due to piracy. With this reality, however, you can bend the concept of peer-to-peer sharing to your favor. The more people that like and share your music, the more people that will be willing to purchase your paraphernalia, go to your concerts, attend your special events, and whatever lucrative opportunities that you can think of. It's not all about the record sales. Then again, that's what it is when you look at it from the record agencies' point of view... which really, I don't have an answer for.

 

Edit 02/17/2009: I also want to add that there is a bill paying songwriters for their songs every time that they are aired, and they're pushing for one for musicians as well.

 

Movies are probably one of the most pirated items on the Scene. But what ever happened to movie theater sales? People still buy things on DVD and BluRay, and nowadays I'm sure there are royalties to the HD streaming that we have today. I think that everyone should have the right to make a digital copy of their movies, because we have kids who like to destroy our discs, dogs that eat them, accidents that leave hideous marks, and even gone-bad disc players that eat them up. Physical media is nice for on-demand, but digital media can serve the same purpose AND preserve the media much better (assuming you have stable, reliable media to back it up to). I don't have a real stance as far as for or against the right to share movies illegally, but then again, everything makes it to cable eventually, so why not just expediate the process?

 

There are different viewpoints on illegal filesharing, and if you actually look at it from these different aspects, you will probably be able to see why it's an actual arguable debate with good points on both sides.

Edited February 17, 2009 by rayzoredge (see edit history)

[Xalor 0]

I can say that rvalkass, has a really good point. I think that analogy is flawed also, that you have to think about these huge companies. They lose little from individual sale losses. You can't lose a sale from a person who is going to not buy it anyway, like rayzor said. Pirating also gives free advertising, can you believe that Photoshop for example, you have thousands of people pirating it, over half of them liked lets say CS, and then instead of waiting for pirated version of CS2 they paid for it. The best example of free advertising of a pirated software is here, at Windows 7 Beta. The first release of it for the preview version, that circulated all over the internet. It reached the hands tech reviewers. Those people looked at it and said it was one of the greatest releases of Windows, and it was amazing. Microsoft made a public beta because of this. Millions of users, downloaded Windows 7 and used it as their main OS. I mean now when the real version comes out Microsoft will make a killer with sales of their brand new OS.A copy is not an original of the product. Making copies and distributing them, does not mean that you are stealing. You are merely using a copied version of it, its not the original. That product would have never been sold because it had not exists. What had not existed could not be have sold. The potential sale was not lose because that person had bought the new version. That person would not have bought CS3 if they did not enjoy CS2. If they bought CS2, they would have not bought CS3. You see how, the pirated version of Adobe software got around, people who are younger, and people who aren't even in the industry have bought it, and are using it.

[Baniboy 3]

Yes rvalkass I see your point, but if you're not willing to pay for a product you shouldn't have it in the first place.But I can somehow justify trying it out.. but i think a 30 day trial is enough for that if you're not taking big brakes between the software launches. Yes it's not a physical thing that you steal from shop and maybe it does have "potential market" if it wouldn't be pirated but even if it doesn't harm anyone, most people wouldn't pay 500$ for photoshop except if they a graphics designer that makes a living of it, you shouldn't have the copy anyway, btw it is illegal, to copy and to download a illegal copy. Let's imagine if you made a really good product and you wouldn't make it open source, because you want to make money out of it. And the next day you go to some torrent site and you see hundreds of free copies that are available to anyone. Now if someone would even want to buy your product, he wouldn't even consider paying fifty bucks for it since he can download it free!

[Echo_of_thunder 1]

well as a firm believer in copy write laws and paying royalties I honestly feel if a person downloads anything that is or has been pirated he or she should be shot on site. This is one reason that the music that you can down load online is so costly no a days, due to people downloading for free and not paying the price or a price for there music or movies. Even internet radio stations now are having to pay more a year than before due to Piracy of music and movies that have been downloaded illagally.These download have hurt not only the actors and artists of the songs or movies but you and me. Look at what we have to play at the CD Shops or Movie theaters. Here in the New Jersey area the price for a movie is around $10.00 USD. It's not only with music and movies but Programs too. Take windows. There are people that have hacked it so you can get it without having to buy it. Doing this has brought the price up even more and forced Microsoft to add even more anti hacking into Vista and Windows 7. All because of what? People trying to get something for free when they could have got it at a fair price. But now thanks to all this there isnt a fair price.

[rayzoredge 2]

I also want to throw in this awesome reference as to how many pirates there are (that are tracked by The Pirate Bay, anyway), worldwide.

The tracker updates users every 24 hours. The nuclear symbol represents higher percentages of people using torrents to illegally-acquire software, with China doubling the numbers of the United States, and smatterings of pirates all over the globe.

With all of these numbers, they are hardly staggering compared to the reality of the issue of losing supposed "potential sales" of software, media, and whatnot.

If you really wanted to, you could add all of the users world-wide and take a general assumption of each and every person purchasing one DVD or one piece of software and see the impact that piracy has on companies and the music/motion picture industry. Will it make you feel better if you pirate software or other things? Most likely not. Will you care, knowing that these companies make millions of dollars in sales anyway? Probably not.

Edited February 17, 2009 by rayzoredge (see edit history)

[stefan_pavikevik 0]

Yes it is like stealing someones hard work! It is bad and bad and bad! Why to download pirated content? - No way! I don't like piracy! I hate it! We need to stop it now when is the time! What you'll do if someone steal your hard work? You'll be crazy on him! You'll want to kill him. But killing isn't good thing! So don't support piracy! Stop the piracy! Don't steal someones hard work! It is really expensive! If you don't have enough money, simply collect them, or use Open Source!!! Now we all live in time with economic crisis, so it is very hard to develop something! It is very expensive. And what if someones crack some software in this time? It will be destruction! So stop Piracy (Warez)! Stop it!

[truefusion 3]

Yes rvalkass I see your point, but if you're not willing to pay for a product you shouldn't have it in the first place.
But I can somehow justify trying it out.. but i think a 30 day trial is enough for that if you're not taking big brakes between the software launches.

This is pretty much along the lines that i would argue from. I've seen arguments from both sides that were good but the attempts in trying to justify piracy would never succeed from a logical and reasonable position, meaning i have yet to see anything that truly justifies piracy. What people argue from is from profits—which will only divert the actual, moral issue, therefore allowing supporters of piracy or those playing devil's advocate to provide arguments that validly debunk the arguments that argue concerning profits. That is, there is too many red herrings going on. The fact of the matter is, what it really comes down to is not whether or not any profits are made, but whether or not the desires of the authors of that form of media should be considered. If their desires for their property should not be considered, then why should we consider any argument for piracy? In the end, i would say, it all comes down to: If you created something where you were the sole author of that product and did not want that product to be pirated, should it be allowed, without your permission, to distribute the software? Note that distribution of a product without proper consent is illegal. It is only legal if and only if the original author(s) gave the permission for a certain organization, group or individual (and only them) to distribute the product. Any one who does not have the right to distribute is performing an illegal act, and therefore piracy—the illegal distribution of a product or form of media—should not be allowed.

[Nabb 0]

For myself, I view piracy as extending the powers of trials. I had used an illegal version of Adobe Flash 8, and then Adobe Flash CS3, and proceeded to purchase Adobe Flash CS4. I would never have made a purchase if I didn't have the (much) extended trial. This would probably be the same scenario as many other people with all kinds of software. When it comes to things other than software - games, movies, music - I support those which I consider worthwhile. If I download a game to find it is good, I am likely to purchase the game. This means that the producing company has more money to create more good games. Of course alone, I have no impact on the overall profits of a game. However, many peers of mine share the same views, and I wouldn't be surprised if many other people also operate in this manner.With regards to piracy rates - the value quoted by rayzor of 25% can be far from correct. For a game which is distributed only via the internet, the piracy rate is bound to be much higher. For example, the PC game World of Goo (with no DRM) by 2DBoy has an estimated piracy rate of 90%. Ouch! (I personally obtained the game from someone who worked in the same building as 2DBoy! (or something like that))

Edited February 18, 2009 by Nabb (see edit history)

[iGuest 3]

I am a pirate.How You Justify Piracy?

I am a pirate but do not profit from itin any other way but for my own personal use. I have sold a few to peeps who I trust, but I realized that if it got out it would bring big trouble for me and I just didn't want that attention. So I only give copies to family and loved one's that I can trust. One day I will stop when I lose interest in it or become incarserated,lol. But the point is. Is that no matter what the RIAA/MPAA do. They will not stop us all. There is no use of trying. Look how long they have been trying to keep weed and other drugs out distribution. Now california has legalized weed and it will not stop at that state either. There are others experimenting with the idea. They just tax it and put a stipulation on it about how you must be 21 to purchase it. Whether you agree or disagree that this world is getting better or worse because of all this. One thing remains the same. It's never going to end. So you can choose to except it or not. Your choice. Well thta's all I have to say. Oh I am also a moderator on a torrent site,lol. Take care everyone.

-reply by Styfler?

[Saint_Michael 3]

You can't justify piracy all it is is lazy people who don't want to buy anything and don't care who it is from. Some justify it by saying if its a good movie or music or software I might buy it, of course what do most kids these days need $300-$300 software anyway there is a lot of free alternatives out there. Of course, its not kids anymore either its also adult and I am not talking college students either, people in their 30s, 40s, 50s doing it as well and that is where these piracy busters go after. Due to the fact that most of these people can't afford lawyers or pay these large fines and thus force to settle, heck look at that woman from Minnesota she has to pay almost $2 million dollars are those piracy busters couldn't prove a thing.Of course, the legal system is complete BS to begin with anyway because they let these private companies do all the work and only show the non-illegal stuff they do to obtain this info. So the only people winning are these companies that extort money from people who can't afford their high priced lawyers. Piracy is never going to end, however, look whats about to happen to Pirate Bay, they just got bought out and about 99% of all the illegal stuff there is about to get wiped out. That is how these companies should work just buy out the websites and then delete everything and would be the smart thing to do instead of suing poor people for millions of follars.

[anwiii 17]

forget about legalities. pirating is stealing wether it's a copy of the original or not. stealing has it's moral issues. if you can live with being a theif, go for it. if you can't, don't....but if you do, you can't take that choice back and you will always know you are a theif.me? i'm a thief. i wont justify it. all i will say is this. i am not going to be punished by other people's mad morals when i know i will never have a lot of money to my name til i die. second, i use certain things for personal use(programs) that i have never made a profit off of or benefited other than just having a pirated copy of something that nobody else would use, nor do i redistribute it. personally, i can live with that. BUT! if i ever did start making a profit of any sort with the help of any pirated software, i would always give back. problem as i see it is people can talk crap about how they use illegal copies, but 90% will never give backpersonally, i would love to see piracy come to a halt but that wont happen until you give the hackers a reason not to crack a piece of software. how do you illiminate the next generation hackers? make everything free. on the net. easier said than done, but it's a conceivable concept if done right over a period of time in where the companies can start charging again. after 10 years or so. the companies lose a little money, yes, but once they start charging, you have 5 times as many people willing to pay for the software that they have grown use to. that's my theory at least. compaines can stop the hackers. they are just unwilling. they would rather increase profits to make the quicker buck. i don't agree with that business principle and those are the companies i will always be unwiling to pay a dime to.so now aside from piracy being a moral issue where only theifs prosper, piracy is a legal issue and anyone who commits the act is a criminal. myself included........i never did like the written laws much as i would follow any moral ones....but heck....i am still guilty both ways

[SpiderVV 0]

Well, we all know piracy appeared since the money crisis started almost 20 years ago. People started not to have money and let other people buy it then to rip them to CD's. As far as I remember, it started with CD's being sold in the streets or in the black market and then the uploading websites came. It was a complete internet riot, illegal Windows to one side, applications to other, etc. Also until they started to decode serial numbers, CD-keys and creating cracks.I think piracy should end and that it shouldn't at the same time as it's illegal, but it also helps the ones who don't have money to pay certain applications or pirates really, I don't really endorse piracy but I've downloaded it a lot of times in the past.