Joshua

Of course doesn't that imply that people keep getting better and better? That the ones living as people have gotten good enough to be people? I really have a hard time believing that people in general have been getting better and more moral. You say that we'll be able to fix things we couldn't before, but I think people in general have become less caring and more self-focused in the last few years, less charitable and kind. Or perhaps you're just saying there's the possibility people could be fixing things but that they could also be regressing? However, what do you think about the ultimate goal being just to get out of the reincarnations? To become good enough that your attempts at perfection finally succeed in you ceasing to exist? I'm a bit curious why people can swallow that as the whole reason to life. The whole point of life and our whole purpose is to keep getting better and better until we can finally cease to exist? That would suggest the reincarnations are just one meaningless, rat race of a cycle and that what is best is simply to finally get to escape it and cease to exist, right?

Well, I believe she should not and it seems plain to me that Christ would not approve of it, for He said that to do otherwise is adultery. And it does say that our bodies become the temples of the Holy Ghost once we're saved. (1 Corinthians 6:19) But it would be an issue to talk with the person about, not something for me to use to put them down. Church leaders might have to talk with her about getting right with God concerning it. One of the things I've heard preached on is that God forgives but you do not forget. If you are truly repentant (and true repentance abhors its mistakes, doing all it can to turn from them) and ask God for mercy He will forgive you of the mistake (note that He would not bring wrath upon a Christian, He might chastise them as children to bring them to the right way, but the wrath is already paid for, rather it is for the sake of relationship with Him). But because it was not according to God's will you will have missed out on the potential blessings that could have come through following God's willl. God wants the best for our lives. Oh, I just recalled the perfect verse on the subject! I'm surprised it didn't come to mind before... Oh well, maybe God just didn't want me to see it until now So even in the case of an unbelieving spouse, one is not to depart. And as verse 11 says, if one does depart they should remain unmarried or else be reconciled. Hope that verse helps as well. No, I don't. I don't see why God can't be just in not condoning sin and merciful and loving in trying to pay for that sin. God can't help or else won't change who He is. He is a just and righteous God who utterly abhors evil, and He will not tolerate it. Since it was brought into the world, and with it, the consequence He made for it, death (Romans 5:12), He intends utterly to destroy it even as He destroys Satan whose work it is (1 John 3:8). God doesn't just worry about us, He worries about His whole creation. He wants a perfect creation, like the one He made that's gotten messed up because of sin (Romans 8:22). He can't permit evil to continue to the next creation when He will destroy this universe to make a new one, including new heavens and a new earth. (Isaiah 65:17) It is righteousness and justice that causes Him to destroy evil. It is longsuffering mercy and love that made Him refrain from destroying us all at the beginning so He could come to die on our behalf that we might have a chance to be in the relationship with Him He first intended. I see the whole situation as a murderous convict standing before a judge. The convict says "Judge, I know you're a good guy, and I believe that since you're a good guy you're going to let me go!" The judge replies, "You're right, I am a good guy, and since I'm so good I'm going to have you locked away so you can't hurt anybody else!" You see, if God permits evil to coexist with righteousness it will by nature persecute the righteous. If God permits those who hate Him to coexist with those who love Him, the haters will end up hurting those who love Him just as they've persecuted and murdered them here on this earth. And so, a righteous God to allow such people to coexist with the righteous, can only let them coexist if they are changed to become righteous. And the only way that can be done is if they trust in Jesus Christ, and being born again, become new people. Hope that helps, Jz

I found a really good site with brief descriptions of each belief: http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/ I think this is the one you're thinking of: Here's some others just for India alone, also as described on that page: As far as moving to another planet, I think it's highly improbably even aside from my reservations about what the Bible says about it, since you're talking about having to take a lot of stuff a long way to just start making it habitable, let alone getting the people there. And at the rate our nations are going, everyone would probably end up destroying each other before that could become a reality.

But again, why is it essential? To protect you from other hateful individuals? Take hate out of the equation and what does hate, evil, sin, etc. need to protect you from? Take out evil and what would be wrong with the world? Overpopulation? If people worried more about others they could just live in high-rise buildings and take care of their world and then there'd be a lot more room. I think the reason people don't think we'd get far is more because we have trouble imagining life without evil and hate, then that we'd be worse off without it.

I just remembered something I heard. The reason cigarettes are legal and marijuana isn't is because marijuana is easily grown. They can tax cigarettes, they can't tax marijuana. All of which means that maybe the reason they don't make it illegal for teens to smoke is because they don't mind kids getting addicted since cigarette taxes can earn them so much revenue. You know why they like taxing drugs? Because like gambling, it's addictive, and once you're hooked you're hooked. In other words it's not something people will easily boycott no matter what you raise the taxes to.

Well, if you believe that, I guess if you ever had one of those mothers who ever said "I brought you into this world and I can take you out of it" you must've been scared stiff, huh? On the contrary, you go into an Islamic country you expect laws based on the Koran, if you go into a Hindu country you expect laws based on Hinduism. There's a reason all our currency has God's name on it you know. There are atheists who having denied the existence of evil believe everything is permissible, and there have been some atheists who've been what most would consider pretty immoral. I am NOT saying this to try and say a person following belief in God is inherently any more moral then anyone else, I'm simply pointing out that basing what's right on what you feel to be right does not always work. And I'm replying specifically to your following statement, to say that being an atheist does not guarantee you a mind capable of infallible moral judgements: Human government can tell you what to do but can it give you a good reason why you should do it? People tend by nature towards what is advantageous for them, and that is often not what is most advantageous for others.

Well, ultimately the Bible judges sins as what's offensive to God, regardless of whether or not it is to man. For example, keeping the Sabbath holy might not seem wrong to most people but God places emphasis on it. You're right, they're people, we're people, and we're all naturally evil. I mean, it's our human nature to want what other people have, to jump at the chance to take what we can get away with, etc... When we meet someone who isn't like that it's so rare that they tend to gain a following, be utterly persecuted, or all of the above. There's an interesting cartoon for Prickly City where the girl says she's perfect and that she's going to show the world how good she is and everything. Then the coyote points out that she has a booger hanging out of her nose. The last frame shows her sulking and saying "figures, you talk about perfection and they start looking for boogers." My point is that precisely because we all do wrong things we can't put others down, as Christ said, we can only judge (in the sense of persecuting, sentencing, punishing, not simply disagreeing or saying there's an ultimate truth) if we ourselves are perfect. Unless we ourselves are sinless we can't cast the first stone at others. (John 8:7) And Christ said there is none good but one, and that is God. (Mark 10:18) That's why when pointing out what is wrong it is also essential to point out that we ourselves fall short as well of the ultimate standard and that we're all in one boat so to speak, and that filled with the guilty.

Alright. Well, I look at a real case that happened in California several years ago as a good idea of how this works. A judge found a girl guilty, down came the gavel, and he made her pay a fine, for he was a just judge. But then a strange thing happened, the judge came down, took off his robe, and pulling out his wallet paid the fine for her. He was her father and he loved her. I look at it as this is what God has done. He is a perfectly just God and His nature cannot excuse sin. You could say He has a job to be just, all justice and righteousness in the universe depends solely on Him. For righteousness to exist there must be an ultimate separation of evil from it else the evil will destroy or pollute the righteousness. God has to pronounce a sentence on evil or He can't satisfy righteousness, and thus it will cease to exist. But being loving He did what He could to pay the sentence Himself, we need only to trust in Him alone for our righteousness, and not in anything we or anyone else can do. God can be both just and loving. As just He must pronounce a sentence to satisfy that justice aspect of His nature. As loving He did what He could to give us a chance to have that sentence fall on Him instead of us. Ravi Zecharias likes to ask people who Jesus Christ died for, and often they'll say "for me", "for everyone", or "for sin." And Ravi will agree but ask them who else He died for. You see, He also died for the Father, to meet that justice requirement the Father demands, or else the requirement would have to fall on us. God doesn't overlook sin, someone has to pay for it. However, He did die for us so that payment could be made by Him, on our behalf. And finally, Christ came to separate the good from the irredeemably evil. How can there ever be any hope of righteousness and love from those who've rejected the ultimate good and righteousness of the world, Jesus Christ? This is God's Son, who He loves and cherishes and has proclaimed the "light of the world," if we reject Him we've rejected everything good the Father had to show us. This I believe is why there's no hope for Satan to be saved, he knew what He was giving up and who He was rebelling against, de'd tasted of all the goodness and righteousness of God and Heaven and even knowing all this he willingly rebelled against everything he knew to be good and perfect in the universe. I believe that once you do that there is no turning back, you've utterly rejected perfect good and there's no hope for you. Christ said He didn't come to send peace but a sword, not to join but to separate. (Matthew 10:34) He came to separate the wheat from the chaff, the lambs from the goats, the evil from the good. In the first poem I ever wrote, the first line says "Earth is a testing ground between two planes" and I still believe that. Earth is God's testing ground to determine once and for all who is worthy of His coming kingdom and who there is no hope for. Christ's coming served another purpose. It was God showing us the ultimate good and the ultimate righteousness about Heaven, everything the Father loved is embodied in Jesus Christ, and if we refuse Him... how He must be angered. We've refused everything good He had to show us, "How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation?" (Hebrews 2:3) Christ is essentially the Father's dividing line, the ultimate good to see who will thankfully embrace it and who will scornfully reject His incredible gift. By this will He decide who will enter His kingdom, by who received His beloved Son and His precious gift bought with God's own blood. I personally do believe that remarriage is wrong, but that reporting his endangerment of her or his family to the law whose job it is to stop such things is a good action. Again however, it's not my job to worry about how bad a non-Christian is, since the ultimate thing that sends them to Hell is not finding mercy in Jesus Christ. For a Christian however, I do believe it is wrong and that if the woman is submitted to Christ she will realize this. If not then, then hopefully eventually, and then repent and find forgiveness for it. I'm simply telling you how I believe it works. *shrugs* Frankly, I don't normally discuss these things with someone, my one worry is for whether or not their heart is right with God through Jesus Christ. And if a Christian was in such a situation I would explain to them what I saw the Scriptures as saying humbly, as I would to a beloved sibling, as the Bible says. (2 Thessalonians 3:15) Agreed, that's why I would speak to a fellow Christian concerning such a matter as I would to a brother or a sister, and why I wouldn't even speak to a non-Christian about it at all. I do not however feel that simply stating what you believe about something is persecution. If they ask you for example whether you believe something is or isn't Biblical, is simply answering them persecution? A judge sentences, gives a persecuting punishment, but simply saying something is what the Bible teaches needn't be done to condemn anyone or punish them. In fact, it may be what they need, for how can one know they're wrong, and thus repent and turn to God, if they don't know what the Bible says on something and thus what they've done wrong? The key is to do it humbly with kindness and empathy, not trying to put them down but to help them see what God says about it. That is also why I emphasize that all sin is worthy of death and that I myself don't stand in this grace by my own merits, but by God's mercy alone. The point isn't to put anyone down, it's to either get right with God, or to grow in our relationship with Him and with others.

I've said them pretty fast too, the English ones listed so far by everyone anyway, and the only ones really giving me trouble are your two ones, the one about the zither and the one about the sick sheik. I'm starting to suspect everyone has a tongue weakness, and that mine has to do with x sound. I think I'll compose you a tongue twister right now, let's see how you guys do on it Quiver at the clever livery worker's lisping wranglings I might add a line later if I feel like it, that's just one off the top of my head See how you do with that one

Actually, one of the big supports for a Biblical history is the existence of flood legends on almost every continent in numerous ancient legends. This site is good for showing which cultures have flood legends: http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html As you can see, they have them everywhere from Australia to Canada. Well, again, I figure ghost is just a synonym for spirit. Something I've found interesting, spirit or ghost comes from the word breath, or air, perhaps revealing something of the nature of ghosts or spirits. I don't doubt the paranormal, indeed the Bible teaches the spiritual realm to be the ultimate reality and the physical to be merely something vulnerable to change from the spirit realm. Concerning the distended reality, I really can only guess. The Bible says the Holy Spirit can know our hearts and that that spiritual realm deals with faith and matters of the heart. Demons can control a person and inhabit them like a house. Because God is a Spirit it says that He dwells not in temples built with stone but people are His temples. Again, what kind of an alternate reality this would involve I can only guess, but I think thoughts and feelings compose the reality. You are consumed not by physical sight and senses but rather by the realm of the mind and the heart, and it is the realm which you give your attentions to. I would imagine those who dwell in it are more highly tuned to emotions and thoughts and that such compose their reality. What's interesting is we consider such the intangible though we know they exist, because we are physical we don't examine them as fully as we could, but doesn't the paranormal have largely to do with the mind or the heart? Not just thoughts but the will as well and variances in "faith" or being able to do that which you most firmly believe in. Just some thoughts brought up by your observation. That's exactly it, we've all done those things and it's why Christ came to save the whole world, not just one group of people! I for one know I'm certainly as guilty as anyone else, and if I knew I was still responsible for those mistakes I'd be miserable I'm certain those little white lies are just a sampling of what we've all been guilty of, and I know that's true for me. That's the thing with salvation, it's not a purging to be done every now and again, but Christ offered Himself once and for all. Once the sins are washed away, they're washed away for good. They are spoken of as covered, it's a done deal and not only your sins that you've done are forgiven but all you'll ever do. The Bible says that "as far as the east is from the west" is how far He removes our sins from us. (Psalms 103:12) I wouldn't want to be surrounded by ultra-religious people either That's the thing, Christianity isn't about religion or working your way to God, it's about forgiveness and relationship with God through Jesus Christ's finished payment on the cross. Christ hung out with prostitutes and publicans (Jews who worked as tax collectors for the Romans and who their own people loathed and shunned) and they loved Him for it because He was compassionate to them and treated them with dignity, when noone else would. Yet the self-righteous Pharisees were the subject of Christ's unceasing denunciations. That I believe is one of the secrets of Heaven It's not going to be filled with a bunch of stuck-up people who think they're perfect, in fact, you can't get saved thinking that. It will be filled with ex-prostitutes, ex-murderers, ex-thieves, etc... Christ reached out to those who were despised, He scorned and warned those who thought they were superior to others. Thieves like the thief on the cross who by simply accepting Jesus was told "this day will you be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43) Prostitutes like the woman in Samaria who Jesus reached out to so she could find eternal life. (John 4:17-18) And murderers like Paul who was one of the Church's greatest enemies before He came face to face with the One He was persecuting, Jesus Christ. (1 Timothy 1:13) Becoming a greater apostle even then the original 12, he became a champion for Christianity whose zeal for the Lord amazed all who met this former Pharisee as He happily faced shipwreck, stonings, beatings, floggings, imprisonment, starvation, and was even left for dead. (Acts 14:19) He stood fearlessly before the rulers of the known world (Rome) declaring the wonder of his Master and when they finally executed him, his last words were "I have won!" Of course, there's the depressing parts of reincarnation, like the fact that you don't regularly recall past lives. Nothing is ever resolved. And the whole point of it is to get good enough that you can finally just "get out of it." The whole gist of it all is to keep getting good enough that you can supposedly become one with the universe (or Brahmin?) and just lose your sense of being in itself, as I understand, you basically cease to exist. Sorry about subjecting you to another quote, but it'll be a short one It's from page 14: As you can probably tell from this, Ravi Zecharias grew up in India. However, at the age of 20 his family moved to Canada. Eventually Ravi moved here to the US as well, and of course, as one of the most famous philosophical speakers in the world has traveled many other places as well. That is why he is able to detail personal meetings with high-ranking Russian generals, Olympic athletes, and prominent scientists and theologians of the day. I suspect it was his beginnings in Hinduism that sharpened his mind for philosophy and why he is so well versed in explaining the philosophical side of Christianity. Well, I believe this world and the universe as we know it will be utterly destroyed and that God will build a new creation devoid of the sin and evils brought in by Satan, which is why He can permit only those obedient to His will into it, else they would only mess up creation again. Regression, that's an interesting point the Bible makes. It says we're not evolving but devolving, that we were created to be able to live hundreds of years and were perhaps smarter then as well. Since we lived longer we had the benefit of learning the experience of our ancestors, and perhaps our minds matured more as well. It may be why so much of our brains are currently unused now. Just something to consider for the sake of further conversation I suppose.

I got a warning before, I believe it was for either not putting Bible verses in quotes or for using so many quote tags that the system couldn't handle them. Apparently if you have more then 10 quotes in a post the post won't activate them and it will just show the html and not do anything with it. I only got up to 10% though and they decreased it after maybe a month, so maybe it'll be 10% every month?

Well, although all the articles I usually use from the http://creationtoday.org/ site haven't been put up yet, I'm looking to see if some of their new ones might of use. Btw, the owner Kent Hovind is also the guy who owns Florida's Dinosaur Adventure Land that brought in over 17,000 visitors in 2004, so he does have some influence. Perhaps he's redoing the articles, because I haven't seen this one before, but he makes a good point in it. I'm hoping these are just the barebones articles too, because he gave good sources and pictures with the articles before, and I don't see any in these recent articles. Here's one on Carbon-14 dating: http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/ http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/ from: http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/ http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/ Well, that's 4 of his new articles, hopefully he can get some more of them back up on the site. Maybe something there will prove interesting to you. *shrugs*

I have no problem accepting the people or treating them like anyone else. I'm not going to waver on the Bible calling it wrong, but the Bible calls other things wrong too, like hating others and lusting after those you're not married to. A large portion of the population is adulterous and I consider it very wrong to single out one group of that population for what most of the population is guilty for. The Pharisees wanted to single out an adulteress when they themselves were guilty as well. So I must hold 2 points up here. 1, we are all guilty, the difference is not in who's better but in who's found mercy; and 2, homosexuality is wrong but doesn't send us to the Lake of Fire anymore then any other sin, all sin sends us there. As a Christian we're called to depart from all sins to follow God, and there is no excuse to do otherwise. http://www.thebible.net/cnlglfg/ The first amendment was intended to protect Christianity so that the Roman Catholic Church couldn't again start up killing Christians who worshipped God differently. Indeed, the nation was so predominantly Christian that it was at first seen as overkill to put in that amendment, but someone (I forget who) wanted it put in anyway. It seems plain that the amendment was attempting to prevent a church/government merge such as so many Catholic countries have, and as England has, from which they'd fled. This article seems to put it pretty well. http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9202/articles/neuhaus.html Christ hung out with the prostitutes, however, when He forgave the adulteress He also told her to "go and sin no more." It's a tolerance of the person while not condoning their sin as alright, something Christ incorporated perfectly into His life. He pointed out that things like lusting after others and hating others are sins, but also said His job wasn't to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever repents of their sins (and repentance involves admitting they're wrong) and trusts in Him alone for their justification will be saved.

Also, before I forget MS, the moderators on this site don't like posting one post after another if at all possible. You can ask a moderator to confirm this if you wish but they aren't happy about multiple posts by the same person in a row from what I understand. I'd suggest being careful about that from now on before you get in trouble. Again, you can talk to a moderator to confirm this if you wish. I only make this multiple post here to let you know this.

As for the PBS link, they also point out: Gladly, the Son always existed, He said He existed before Abraham (John 8:58) and that He had glory with the Father "before the world was." (John 17:5) David knew of Him and said "Blessed are all they that put their trust in him." (Psalms 2:12) In Revelation 1:8 He speaks of Himself as the "Alpha and Omega, the first and the last" as well as "the Almighty." Proverbs 8 gives us more insight into His nature, that He was not "born" in the sense we think of for as Hebrews 7:3 says He is "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life." Proverbs 8:22 points out that He was possessed by God, not created. And in Hebrews 1 the final key to the puzzle is revealed: By the way, this quotes Psalms 45:7 where it speaks of God speaking to God and God annointing God. Hard to explain that if there is no Trinity. You see, Christ was never "born" in the sense we think of, for He always existed. As I understand it, He met the Father before the world began and because He was "the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person" (Hebrews 1:3) the Father said "thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." Concerning Mary, she was nothing but a doorway for the eternal God to step into this world. She had no part in His creation, for He always existed: That Mary's body being used as that doorway gave her no special honor is abundantly clear thanks to a New Testament passage in Luke 11:27-28. Here we see a woman coming up to Christ and actually saying Mary's body is blessed for bearing Him. But as Christ points out, yes, her body is blessed in itself, but not as blessed as any Christian believer can be by "hear[ing] the Word of God, and keep[ing] it." Carbon dating shows numerous recent objects to be far older then they are. Drdino.com had some very good articles on this but unfortunately have redone their website recently with the old articles not yet put back on. However, let me make this point. Carbon dating relies upon the levels of carbon being the same from year to year. Yet it does not take into account what effects the worldwide catastrophes (ice ages, meteor strikes that wiped out dinosaurs, etc...) would have on the carbon levels. In the case of the dust from the meteor that supposedly filled the atmosphere, this would block out the sunlight, and most certainly have an effect on carbon levels. True, but at the same time the Bible also narrows down some things as being impossibilities concerning that which is mutually exclusive. God cannot do be contradictory, He can't be both good and evil, and He can't make square circles. That's dealing with mutually exclusive events. For example, the light and darkness were day and night, and with the sun made on the 3rd day the 24 hour period would have had to begin at least then. Furthermore, since the grass was made the 2nd day and the sun the 3rd, if it wasn't a literal 24 hour period the grass would have died by then, right? You are right about the concession, I'd been thinking I'd posted it, but I'd begun it and having to leave it got deleted in the meantime so I couldn't post it. It's why there was my last reply was a bit belated, I'd gotten a bit discouraged when the post before had just gotten deleted after so much work before I finished it. I'd meant to edit out the comment about letting you have the point and apparently missed it. *shrugs* Well, it gave one source for 1999, your article was 2001, so they must have both been written around the same time... Concerning your Y Chromosome, I found one interesting explanation from: http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org/archives/000203.html

It's been said that they sinned and brought sin into the world but as soon as we're old enough we jump off the ship too, and that while it's possible to live without sin none of us will ever do it. God can't make a people capable of love without allowing something to test their love as well, bringing up the question if any different way of creating man would have succeeded without rebellion. If God hadn't said not to eat it then eating it would not have been wrong, you can't have something be wrong and not have a law stating that it's wrong. Because there wasn't sin yet they had the ability not to take of the tree and they willingly rebelled against God. It is often spoken of of how there's an age of accountability where we realize what we're doing. The Bible would suggest that children who die do go to Heaven since in 2 Samuel 12:23 David says he will go to his unborn son when he dies but that the son will not return to him. God judges us for our sins, our mistakes, in the final judgement, as I understand it. All sin is worthy of death, when we lie once, steal once, hate someone else once, covet once, etc... we have committed a sin worthy of eternal death in the Lake of Fire for we have rebelled against God. This is the curse that the Law brought upon it, for a righteous God cannot allow evil to go unpunished and to abide with Him. God came to earth as Jesus Christ to pay the price so that the punishment might come on His head. The Bible was physically written by people who God inspired, but it is His Words and He is the Author of them. We go to Hell for rebellion against the Almighty, insurgents are not tolerated. Pick an empire you think is the most just and then look at how they deal with terrorists and rebellions. That's your parable, now for the one Christ tells in Luke chapter 20: =============== A man planted a vineyard and let some people take care of it. He then took a long trip to a distant country. When a certain season came, He sent one of His servants to give him some of the vineyard's fruit, which belonged to him anyway. But those he'd loaned the vineyard to beat His servant and cast him out. They did the same to a second servant, and when He sent a third they wounded him as well and cast him out. So the lord of the vineyard said, "What will I do? I'll send my beloved son, perhaps they will honor him when they see him." But when the caretakers saw the son they considered and said among themselves, "This is the heir, let's kill him so we can have his inheritance." So they cast the son out of the vineyard and killed him. Now what then do you think the lord of the vineyard will do to them? =============== You see, God has had mankind continually rebel against Him. He sent His servants the prophets and mankind has attacked and killed them. Then when He finally sent them His Son they killed Him. As Christ said, whoever isn't with Him is against Him, and thus associated with His murderers (Matthew 12:30). You see, we are either God's children or Satan's, there is no middle ground. Christ came that we could be a part of God's family instead of Satan's, by refusing Him we stand all the more solidly beside Satan and the murderers of God's beloved Son. (John 8:44) Here is more: Mankind rebelled against God, and choosing to defy His commandments, and this now evil race continued to reject His pleas to repent. He picked out a nation that the world might come to to worship Him, but even this nation rebelled against Him. Other nations continued in their abominable ways, choosing to worship idols and things made of rock and stone rather then the one true Creator. They even burned their children alive, committed sexual abominations, and killed and used violence on all they could. The injustice became so great that He nearly wiped out the human population, wishing He hadn't made them. The only reason He chose not to was because one man lived righteously and followed after Him (and our evil nature leads us to commit evil, only by following after God can we learn of righteousness). All through the ages God has tried to draw mankind back from their backsliding ways as they continue to refuse Him. The few men who've obeyed Him, the prophets, He has sent to try and turn mankind back to Him, and they've been stoned, sawn in half, and slain with the sword by a rebellion race that refuses to return to the Creator who loves them. Finally God sent them His Son and they even killed Him. The final nail in the coffin besides the fact that we sin and live in rebellion against Him, is that we refuse Him who died for us, making it evident that had He lived in our time, we too would have killed Him as well. There will come a day when God will do as He did in the days of Noah, He will destroy the wicked race of mankind, leaving only those who are doers of good. We cannot enter paradise while we are still associated with the evils of this race but as there are levels to Heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2) and there are levels to Hell (Psalms 86:13), as there are differences in rewards, so it would be safe to assume there will be differences in punishments. God is just and I believe that those who are less guilty will suffer less in the Lake of Fire. However, the day is coming when that purging of the human race and God will do what He could have done years ago, He will annihilate the wicked race that has utterly forsaken Him. Only those, who like Noah, have turned again to Him, will be saved. Maybe you don't want to hear that, say it's too harsh, but I say that when that day comes we will all have a lesser idea of how evil we are then what we really are. Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. I don't know that I agree with all of Wild's post but I think he was right on about how God can't allow those rebelling against Him into Heaven for they would only pollute yet another of His creations. You see, God made this one perfect, but through the evils of mankind the whole creation is being destroyed. Indeed, all creation cries out for its Creator to do something about this: Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. God will not let His new creation be messed up like the last one was. You bring up some good points about why you believe what you believe and I respect your honesty and candor. God did take judgement of His nation into His own hands, the fact that Israel has gone through so many trials and captivities and genocidal attacks through history is proof that God has done as He said in mightily judging them for rejecting His promises. That Israel still stands despite all it's been through is proof that God is true to His promise in preserving them. Before Christ came, God did interact with people via angels, but to tell the nation of Israel of Christ who would come. Christ did come and worked miracles even a whole nation set on disbelieving Him could not deny. Many people don't think about how the whole nation of Israel which Christianity started in was dead set against believing Him to be God, and their laws stated that false miracles and false prophecies were to be accompanied with stoning. Yet even His greatest enemies couldn't deny the miracles or the teachings, indeed, His disciples deliberately pointed to them afterwards as evidence of who He was. One of the great reasons Christianity succeeded was because the miracles and the great works could not be denied. I figure that now that Christ has come and God has evidenced and backed Him up like noone or nothing in history has ever been backed up, that He figures He doesn't need to provide further signs. His Son has come, the promise has come, now it's just a waiting period to see who will show themselves righteous by trusting in Him, and who will show themselves unredeemably wicked by refusing Him. However, I think you'll find if you deliberately challenge God to prove Himself to you, if you ask Him to show that He exists, and are really willing to see His hand at work, that He'll give you what you need to believe God does work in people's lives if they are really seeking Him, to draw them to Him, but He does just enough for it to be enough. And God will not view Himself as an entertainer, He's not going to show someone miracles who's set on not believing in Him and just wants to see what He can do for their private amusement. If someone really wants to see if He exists, He will draw them to Him. It may not be like they'd expect, in fact I'd venture to guarantee will not be I'm certain God has a sense of humor when it comes to that But He may show you truths, reveal things to you, work in your life until you either must believe it's not coincidence or ultimately refuse to let anything be enough to persuade you. He might bring people into your life to tell you what you need to know, to tell you the facts you need to hear, but He will not force you. The point is that our sins bring us a guilty conscience and a heavy heart, and it's the weight of all that guilt leaving which many (perhaps not all) people who are born again first notice. It's like the biggest weight in the world falling off you, your guilt is utterly washed away. The point is that there's life out there, there's hope, there's a chance to change, to find eternal life! This isn't a matter of needing to do good enough deeds to get in or so you don't have to face much of Purgatory (which isn't Biblical), the Bible says you are saved once and for all. It means complete assurance that you've found eternal life and all the promises of God, and that all the searching is over. That all the payment is done with, and not done by us, but by Christ on the cross. That we can finally be free, not just from sin and from death and from hate, but from worry and anxiety altogether! It means knowing our souls are safe with the One who bought them, as the hymn says "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded; that He is able, to keep that which I've committed, unto Him, against that day!" It means simply resting and trusting in God and realizing more and more that whatever the world might throw at us we are ultimately safe in Him and that all the searching, all the striving, all the fear is dead and gone. It means death for us is dead, that everything is finished, there are no punishments for us, only rewards, and life no longer has fear remaining in it for us, for there's nothing we need to be afraid of, for we're eternally safe. All that remains is to obey God, not because we have to, or because we don't have a choice, but rather out of love and gratitude towards Him for what He has done for us. This is the point. Concerning ghosts, the Bible does speak of them but not in that way Ghost is just another word for spirit, which is why "Holy Spirit" and "Holy Ghost" are interchangeable. There is the rare case of Samuel as a ghost coming to visit Saul in 1 Samuel 28:12. However, this was apparently a special circumstance God allowed, since the witch was shocked as well to see it happen Demons are simply fallen angels, like Satan. And it says angels are ministering spirits who care for the "heirs of salvation" in Hebrews 1:14. Demons of course can cause physical problems and Christ cast them out of people before. How much they can do I'm not sure, but they are subject utterly to Christ, and thus to the saint (i.e. born again Christian). Both demons and angels are active in this world, and angels at least have come in bodily form before. It seems plain to me that from them originate the popular conception of "ghosts." Christians were also burned at the stake. Those who burned people at the stake got their religion from the same Rome that burned Christians at the stake, and burned their Bibles as well. God permits us to disagree with Him for now, that we might have a chance to find mercy. I believe that it isn't ignorant disbelief we are punished for (Paul was forgiven for His actions done in ignorance-1 Timothy 1:13) but rather all the evils we commit. When we hate someone we do evil. When we want something that's someone else's we do evil. When we lust after someone we're not married to we do evil. Add up all those evils and you'll see why we must be punished. That's the direct cause for why we go to the Lake of Fire. The indirect is because we didn't find the way of mercy that can pay for those evils so they come upon Christ instead of upon us. My friend, I respect others, not their beliefs Because I respect them I do not provide unbacked accusations and I listen to what they have to say, respectfully. Let's face it, we both believe we're right We both believe our way is the right way Simply saying one way is right is not disrespecting the other person, disrespect is to either attempt to silence the other person's views/voice (which idea I abhor) or to simply put them down through charachter assassination or their views down by unreasonable attacks (your view is stupid, etc... esp. without reasoning). The topic's on life after death and I'm willing to discuss a lot of other topics with others as well. *shrugs*

I told you about 20 posts ago that not only did I not know where I found the article but that since I couldn't find the proof I'd just let you have the point since it wasn't Biblically related, remember that? While it isn't disputed that the first civilizations were Mesopotamian, apparently this idea of African descent comes from the "Genetic Eve" your site talked about. It didn't have much at all to say either from what I could find, and the basic ideas are pointed out to have multiple potential flaws by PBS: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/neanderthals/mtdna.html I thought it described them pretty well, how they were created, what their purpose was, some of their characteristics... I did answer your question, read again... And I'm getting tired of having to requote myself, please pay attention: I surely hope you are indeed "done" with me, because it's highly taxing for me to continue trying to talk to someone who's so offensive and relies so heavily on charachter assassination to win their debates. Who else was being spoken of but the Trinity? But of course if you don't believe the Bible is true you wouldn't believe in the Trinity either, now would you... 176336[/snapback] Since God made all the animals and man in a literal 6 day period, I'd assume the popular date of 6000-8000 years would be about correct.

You know what, I figure since you don't want to expound on the "latex" issue, why should be continue to disagree about whether or not we are allowed to judge those outside of the Church even though it's stated in Corinthians I 5:12?On the topic of misinterpretation: I would like to know why you don't think Catholics didn't misinterpret the Bible during the Inquisition. I would also like to know, what makes you the end-all-to-be-all interpreter. How do you know that you haven't misinterpreted scriptures as well? After all, we are all only human, and the Bible states that although the main message will remain intact, the Book itself will be revised/changed/interpreted by man, and there will be error.You can think that Christ had olive skin all you want, if it helps you. I'm not going to argue on this. You can search the scriptures if you want, because I'm not wasting my time explaining how. Just as an FYI, though, the first Jews were Black. That should give you a start. Heck, the first people on earth were African. And if you argue this, I will point you toward a African history class taught by a white man at UCLA, and/or the Discovery channel to get you started on that. I already responded to the "latex" issue a long time ago : And you still haven't answered my question about what you think judging involves. I repeat, Christ said not to judge, He also said to judge not according to appearance but to judge righteous judgement, meaning you need to examine what the word "judge" involves in both cases then. The Catholics didn't have much to do with a lot of the old NT fragments, those were from the early Church, which had very little in common with the current Roman Catholic Church. I'd like to see where in the Bible you read that "the Book itself will be revised/changed/interpreted by man, and there will be error." Actually, the first people were believed to be from Mesopotamia, or the Middle Eastern region, which may have included parts of Africa, but was not solely African. *shrugs* When God talked to Job, Job didn't have to ask Him what the different animals were, they were familiar to him, so yes, I assume the Behemoths and what we call dinosaurs were definitely alive when humans were. As far as what the Scriptures say about planets and galaxies: And he could have made it to fit together so perfectly without flaw, could he? The Bible says not only that God gave the Bible but that He preserved it. There is more Bibliographical evidence, or manuscript authority, for the New Testament alone, then for any other great work of literature in antiquity. God has given more then enough to give us proof of the Bible's validity and authority. The Bible is God's Word and it's following God's commandments that make you a Christian (and not by works but as it is written, faith in Christ alone) not by following what someone else feels in their heart. Huh? I never said anything about staying with them, obviously the law should take its course in separating a man who is physically abusive, I just said there should be no divorce. And God has written His Word in my heart, and I know it to be the only truth I need to live my life by and will never give it up. The Bible is completely and utterly rational. Also, the user name shortening was Johnny's suggestion, he noticed noone had picked Joshua as a username and offered to change mine, I accepted, and appreciate it. The Bible says that what God therefore hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (Matthew 19:6) Christ gave the one thing that could nullify a marriage to be fornication, not violence. See my above post, I never said anything about her needing to stay with him, I spoke concerning divorce only.

You are right about what the Bible teaches, it teaches one God who created us to enjoy a personal relationship with Him and that other ways are no ways at all but rather idolatry. Christ said He is the only way to God and that all others are false. The Bible isn't going to beat around the bush about it, it claims one way, one truth, one life, and that Christ Jesus. That my friend is one of the many things that keeps many people from ever coming to Christ. They have the freedom to choose Him or reject Him and they refuse because they don't want to acknowledge His authority over their lives. I won't deceive you, that's exactly what Christ asks for, your heart. He will save you, but He buys you with a price, and you are born again to serve Him and no other. The words are those of Christ's who ever lives, and we serve in the Spirit of the Law, not the letter, for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. You see, the Bible asks not only obedience, but for us to change our hearts. It asks us to literally become different people on the inside, the outward actions are not enough to satisfy God. He sees our hearts, and asks us to live in love, in faith, in peace, in joy, and He gives us what we need to accomplish this. In short, Christianity is about the heart. In 1 Corinthians 13 it says we can know all knowledge and wisdom, speak in all tongues, work miracles, give to the poor, and even die for God, but if we don't do it with the right heart, with love, it doesn't mean anything. But if all evil is illusory then anything is permissible, do you say that it is alright to kill and rape and plunder to your heart's content since evil is not real? That's another reason people don't accept Christ, they don't want to admit they're so bad that they need His sacrifice. They don't want to admit that they're so bad they deserved death and that He paid that price for them. But the Law says every secret thought in our heart will be revealed in the final day. Every time we lusted after someone not our wife. Every time we wanted something that wasn't ours. Every time the hate blossomed up in us so we'd have killed someone if we could've gotten away with it. Christ said that all the murderers and adulteries and blasphemies and evil thoughts come from the heart and these defile a person. (Matthew 15:18-19) The Bible says God is a just God and that we will stand trial for every idle word we've every spoken, every evil thought we've ever had, every cheap shot we've ever took at someone, and that when God counts sins, noone will be able to stand.

Alright, I'll show it to you a third time... Last time though! Christ specifically states that IF YOU DIVORCE OTHER THEN FOR FORNICATION YOU COMMIT ADULTERY. Plain and simple. As for the dinosaurs, I could go into the behemoth and the great creatures to walk the earth, but I'd like to go into the Leviathan for now Read Job chapter 41, in verses 19-21 it even speaks of it being able to breath fire, so apparently the dragon legends are based on this very real dinosaur, which is probably where plesiosaur skeletons come from. In verses 15-16 it says the leviathan has airtight scales and in verses 31-32 that he dwells in the deeps of the sea. I can go further, but 41 should give you a lot of what you can learn about this creature. By the way, according to several verses I can give you, it would seem it will dwell in the depths of the ocean until the final day of judgement, meaning it's still around. The key to finding eternal life is trusting in Jesus Christ alone to save us, not Mary, the pope, or anyone else. If any were sinless they could have died on the cross instead of God's perfect Son, but they weren't. We also CANNOT earn our way to Heaven, if you think you can you're not trusting in Christ's payment alone to save you. I will happily show you out of the Scriptures where any of the major Catholic doctrines are wrong.

I would say that rather the Bible is subject to misinterpretation, as is any great work of literature. All it takes is a little willful ignorance and deaf ears to shape or suppress things according to your desires. Just because others can misinterpret something does not mean the message is not usually crystal clear. Hmm... since Christ was a Jew it was probably olive skin coloring, and a few years as a child in Egypt probably wouldn't have changed the skin sufficiently, but that's beside the point. I still think you're misunderstanding the meaning of the word "judge" but if you don't want to talk about it, as you wish.

There's very little fiction I like but C.S. Lewis would be one because of the Chronicles of Narnia, which actually have a Biblical message Ravi Zecharias in Jesus Among Other Gods speaks of that message on page 157: That incantation that Lewis speaks of is the prior will of God, that He who knew no sin would willingly lay down His life to pay the price of sin. The Word of God, as promised, was fulfilled. I haven't read the story since I was pretty young, but seeing this by Zecharias I can suddenly see all the Biblical influences C.S. Lewis brings in. The delights offered Edmond figure mankind's temptation by Satan to know good and evil. Aslan's sacrifice also excellently emphasizes Christ's power to defeat His enemies and His willingness to die for us though He didn't have to. It also shows Satan's attempt to capture the King of Kings only to be tricked himself.

Ah, alright I was genuinely wondering since the actual answer wasn't affirmed anywhere so I thought I might need to do some pondering to figure it out since apparently only one person had gotten it right. I then chose to take the easy way out and pick on the story's grammar

My answer lies exactly in that use of the word "judge." Simply saying something is wrong is not judging. Here's an excellent explanation of it from: http://powertochange.com/discover/faith/questionsaboutgod3/ There is judging where you condemn someone to put them down, then you are making yourself a judge. A judge condemns or sentences. Simply saying something is right or wrong however according to the Bible so long as you're not doing it to punish someone is not judging, for it isn't a sentence. If someone thinks they're perfect obviously it's crucial for them to know what God defines as sin and what the punishment for it is, but those are not our judgements, they are God's, and we don't have to be saying them to put someone down but simply to help them realize that we are all guilty. You can give knowledge which shows us all guilty so no one is singled out, and yes, homosexuality is wrong, but so is adultery, so is hating another person, it's equated to murder. Judging is to say a person is so much more awful then yourself to give a judgement that puts them down. God only is perfect and thus can do that. That is different from simply saying we are all sinners and not beating around the bush about what God says is wrong. Simply saying homosexuality is a sin is not judging someone, for it's God's judgement of what is wrong, and is not singling out anyone as worse. When saying such that's why it's essential to emphasize that we are all guilty of death for sinning and that as Christ said, there is none good but one, that is God, and all, including Mary, the pope, and the apostles, have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

You never did answer my question. Why did Christ say not to judge and also not to judge righteous judgement? There's a difference between judging within yourself concerning what's right and wrong (which Paul says to do-1 Corinthians 11:13) and judging as in condemning others, putting them down to show they're worse then you are. I think you're missing this crucial distinction and it's what I've been trying to get you to see. You yourself admit that there is a judging within the Church to put away those not living rightly according to the Gospel yet are still failing to realize the ways in which the word "judge" is used here. And no, Catholics and Christians don't follow the same Bible, the Catholic "bible" declares a lot of dead saints who basically bribed the RCC to get their names put in, as "saints" Just because someone says they're a Christian, doesn't make them one, it isn't about demographics. If you hurt others then you are not fulfilling the Law (Romans 13:10) for love is the fulfilling of the Law because it doesn't harm others. Christ's great commandments were to love others. The Bible gives an example of Paul doing all in his power to have a slave freed, the Ethiopian eunuch was of African heritage obviously and one of the first Christians, the Bible never gave an excuse for slavery. The Catholic Church has not changed their ways in condoning slavery or in allowing torture, it still supports its actions in the Inquisition, and has never apologized for them. Some of the most clearly supported facts I could give you about Hitler being backed by the Roman Catholic Church are those the RCC refuses to acknowledge, despite all the undisputable evidence. Would any evidence I could give you ever be enough if you will simply suppress it?