A Question Of Free Will Are we just robots?

[Nameless_ 1]

Every day, we see ourselves making robots, and we see ourselves doing our things everyday, and the the question is: Are we just robots? Do we have Free Will? What I mean is that it is possible to think that we are doing our own thing, but we actually isn't. If a computer can predict what you are going to do before you know what you are going to do, do you think we have free will? We make robots do whatever we want them to do, but is there someone else outside out universe telling us to do the same? Controlling each of us, and we don't even know about it?

 

Perhaps we are actually controlled by something else, but we believe that we aren't. In reality, perhaps we do not really have a free will. This has been a matter of great concern by many philosophers.... so, what do you think? Do you think we have Free Will? I, personally, believe that we have, to some extent, but however, we are still controlled by outside forces, whether it is stress or whatever.

 

But humans, after all, at this time of history, cannot see what is outside our realm... we cannot explore, so therefore, we can only speculate. And perhaps, in reality, free will is only an illusion to help us cope with the real reality of having no free will.

 

Feel free to discuss and comment on this topic.

 

Free Will: Are Humans just Robots?

 

Cheers, Nameless_

Edited December 18, 2009 by Nameless_ (see edit history)

[harrison858 0]

Very interesting.What I tend to think about is our "God"What if our God had their own God, and their God, and their God...--I tend to think about Sims too. It's almost as if an outside force is controlling us, as you said.I wish we could explore outside our "realm"But most of this is our imagination. Story-telling-gone-crazy sort of thing.

[Baniboy 3]

Free will would require randomness, which doesn't exist. Owning free will in a few minutes: There is energy and matter in this universe that react with each other. Do you agree? If no, then stop reading. Within this system that we call the universe, every physical action needs a cause. (aka particle1 collides with particle2 and causes it to accelerate/deaccelerate or some other form of interaction). Chemical reactions or energy transfer within the system don't happen without a cause inside the system.Do you agree?So if you could analyze the amount of energy of every particle and every burst of energy(+ the direction), you could predict where, when and why particle1 hits particle2. So it would be unrealistic to think that particle3 went moving at the exact time p1 and p2 hit each other without interacting with anything in any way.Do you agree?So particle1 hit particle2 and it released energy which caused particle4 to bind with particle6. This way things have only one way to happen. You don't expect particle5 to suddenly bind with particle6 without any cause. So if you want, you can predict what is going to happen, when particle1 starts moving for some reason. You could also recall what happened, aka calculate why and how p1 got moving.Do you agree?So you agree that when you make a choice where you have multiple options, everything that has happened before, every particle that has interacted with anything, has lead to this moment. Making choices again is a chemical/physical reaction in the brains or anything else that controls the functions of the organism. So those interactions couldn't have happened in any other way. So you agree that things have only one way to happen. So you choose, but it's not free, it's the result of all the interactions between the particles. You're forced to choose what you choose.Owned*off to cook*

[mahesh2k 0]

@Nameless_, Nice promotion technique but by linking via linkbee. You lost the SEO points. Even if this forum is No-follow. It is considered as backlink for your site and it will be listed if you run through link analyzer. So avoid those linkbee links if you want SEO points. Use linkbee when pointing to other sites. That will help.Coming back to topic. Nobody have any idea about Free-will to be frank, but every one either tries to justify their own stance for it or by crediting some human written books(claimed as god's word). And by justifying their action with free will and by assuming god's thinking in their favor(to rationalize their actions). This can be explained with Cognitive dissonance to some extent.

[Nameless_ 1]

Very interesting.
What I tend to think about is our "God"

What if our God had their own God, and their God, and their God...
--
I tend to think about Sims too. It's almost as if an outside force is controlling us, as you said.

I wish we could explore outside our "realm"

But most of this is our imagination. Story-telling-gone-crazy sort of thing.

Yes, I agree. In Sims, we are actually controlling them, but they seem to be happy themselves. They have sex if we want them to, get a dog or build a house, but they always did what we told them to, thinking that they did it themselves. Is the same thing happening ot us? Are we just in a game, and God is just a five year old playing Sims on his computer?

You may wish you want to explore outside your realm, but you can't. Because like the Sims, you can't walk out of the computer that you were created in.

Free will would require randomness, which doesn't exist. Owning free will in a few minutes:

There is energy and matter in this universe that react with each other.
Do you agree? If no, then stop reading.

Within this system that we call the universe, every physical action needs a cause. (aka particle1 collides with particle2 and causes it to accelerate/deaccelerate or some other form of interaction). Chemical reactions or energy transfer within the system don't happen without a cause inside the system.
Do you agree?

So if you could analyze the amount of energy of every particle and every burst of energy(+ the direction), you could predict where, when and why particle1 hits particle2. So it would be unrealistic to think that particle3 went moving at the exact time p1 and p2 hit each other without interacting with anything in any way.
Do you agree?

So particle1 hit particle2 and it released energy which caused particle4 to bind with particle6. This way things have only one way to happen. You don't expect particle5 to suddenly bind with particle6 without any cause. So if you want, you can predict what is going to happen, when particle1 starts moving for some reason. You could also recall what happened, aka calculate why and how p1 got moving.
Do you agree?

So you agree that when you make a choice where you have multiple options, everything that has happened before, every particle that has interacted with anything, has lead to this moment. Making choices again is a chemical/physical reaction in the brains or anything else that controls the functions of the organism. So those interactions couldn't have happened in any other way. So you agree that things have only one way to happen. So you choose, but it's not free, it's the result of all the interactions between the particles. You're forced to choose what you choose.

Owned

*off to cook*

Yes, that is true. And if that is the case, then there is no such thing as probability either, is there? Because if the particles have only one way to act, then there will only be one possibility that can happen, if we don't think about the probability of quantum physics and knowing where one particle is at a certain period of time.

And if there is no probability, then history has already been written, and can be predicted. The only thing that we have to do is to wait for it to happen. And then here's the thing. Should we wait for things to happen, or should we just do things? And if we decided to wait, of course, it will never happen, because you didn't do it. If you want things to happen, and yet believe that there is no free will, then you will have to believe, even temporarily, that there is, and believe in yourself, and then do it as if you made things happen.

Someone may predict that you will become a famous lawyer one day, but it's not going to happen if you sit around waiting for it to happen. You will have to believe in free will and "make" it happen, if you understand what I mean. And that is where why you must believe in free will even if you don't.

@Nameless_, Nice promotion technique but by linking via linkbee. You lost the SEO points. Even if this forum is No-follow. It is considered as backlink for your site and it will be listed if you run through link analyzer. So avoid those linkbee links if you want SEO points. Use linkbee when pointing to other sites. That will help.
Coming back to topic. Nobody have any idea about Free-will to be frank, but every one either tries to justify their own stance for it or by crediting some human written books(claimed as god's word). And by justifying their action with free will and by assuming god's thinking in their favor(to rationalize their actions). This can be explained with Cognitive dissonance to some extent.

Hmm... OK... I didn't know that, but thanks a lot. Is it possible to explain to me more about SEO and why I shouldn't link things via linkbee? Because I don't really understand. Once I do though, I'll change the URL in my post, thanks. And what's a link analyzer?

[mahesh2k 0]

Hmm... OK... I didn't know that, but thanks a lot. Is it possible to explain to me more about SEO and why I shouldn't link things via linkbee? Because I don't really understand. Once I do though, I'll change the URL in my post, thanks. smile.gif And what's a link analyzer?

Hmm when you link to your site from linkbee then when search engines crawl the web they see. Linkbee pointing to something. Sites like linkbee are not crawled by any search engines. So your site will not appear when it comes to linking. Link analyzer is just another feature used by SEO people and analytics software.

You can check any link made to you using google analytics, Yahoo site explorer. When you keep your link openly on forum without hiding under any URL shortner then when google or any search engine crawls the forum it will be taken into consideration that there is some xyz site is there. So with linkbee's not considered by search engine, you lost the points. You can read more about SEO from seomoz.com. (Most of these contents are paid but you can get free some general and obvious ones).

I repeat, use linkbee to link sites other than yours. You can post your own site link in forum. But if you link other people's site using linkbee they'll lose the SEO points. So it's upto you to when and how to use it. I personally prefer to use URL shortners for linking to some Doc pages or wiki pages as they have PR/Revenue of their own and they don't need any link favor from us.

[Nameless_ 1]

Hmm when you link to your site from linkbee then when search engines crawl the web they see. Linkbee pointing to something. Sites like linkbee are not crawled by any search engines. So your site will not appear when it comes to linking. Link analyzer is just another feature used by SEO people and analytics software.
You can check any link made to you using google analytics, Yahoo site explorer. When you keep your link openly on forum without hiding under any URL shortner then when google or any search engine crawls the forum it will be taken into consideration that there is some xyz site is there. So with linkbee's not considered by search engine, you lost the points. You can read more about SEO from seomoz.com. (Most of these contents are paid but you can get free some general and obvious ones).

I repeat, use linkbee to link sites other than yours. You can post your own site link in forum. But if you link other people's site using linkbee they'll lose the SEO points. So it's upto you to when and how to use it. I personally prefer to use URL shortners for linking to some Doc pages or wiki pages as they have PR/Revenue of their own and they don't need any link favor from us.

Ah... OK... oops. I didn't know that search engines also crawl the links too... I'll change that right away. Yeah, I guess you are right. I'll have to change the links now then... Hmm... OK, I never knew that. Also, do I have to change my signature as well then? But maybe we should keep on topic on "Free Will"? Thanks.

[mahesh2k 0]

Yes, you have to change linking to all those links where you think that link should be benefited by search engine crawlers. And yes, let's get back to topic.

[shadowx 0]

With regards to the theory that everything has a cause and you can trace this cause backwards... IF you believe in the big bang theory then it can be said that at the exact moment of the big bang EVERYTHING was decided. Every particle that was spewed out had a straight line to follow. The only way this can change is by collisions or forces acting on the particle. Each of these collisions and forces can also be traced backwards to the singularity and hence EVERYTHING is already "fated" to happen.However, if we throw life into the equation we get something very different. Humans have sent material out of our planet through the solar system. Through the butterfly effect this could have tremendous consequences and it is something the big bang did not do on it's own. The BB did indeed make the humans who then made these changes but the humans are sentient. We can make our own decision based on events in life, our morals, teachings etc... and these things cannot be predicted or fated by the big bang in any scientific way. If there was no life in the universe then you would argue that fate exists. Each particle and energy "packet" was sent on a pre-defined course by the BB and it's interactions are 100% calculable given enough computer power. However, any simple life can affect the course of particles and the flow of energy. For example me freezing a pack of peas has taken energy from the sun and stored it in my freezer. Hence i have changed the flow in a way that *i* decided, not the big bang. But without me or the peas that sunlight energy would hit the earth and depending on the rotational position of the earth been reflected out into a specific part of space or absorbed into dark rocks etc...So i do believe in free will. However, it is an un-provable concept, either way. I also believe to an extent in fate. For example if a 100km comet is going to smash into the earth then that is fate. From the very moment of the big bang it was decided that a comet would be formed and sent on a trajectory that leads it into the earth. We can however change fate by changing the course of the comet etc....

[jonnytracker 0]

Everyone got free will even robots. When we programmed a game we code it with the option called random, this is where the computer choose to do, (free will) so what do you define free will ? Its all the same after all.

[Nameless_ 1]

So i do believe in free will. However, it is an un-provable concept, either way. I also believe to an extent in fate. For example if a 100km comet is going to smash into the earth then that is fate. From the very moment of the big bang it was decided that a comet would be formed and sent on a trajectory that leads it into the earth. We can however change fate by changing the course of the comet etc....

That may well be very true, but another questions exists: Was human a thing of Fate? From the moment that the Big Bang started, and spewed out everything in a "straight" line", it is inevitable that life had to form the way the energy of the singularity was like before the Big Bang Started. And if life is a definite cause for the big bang, then wouldn't it be inevitable that humans will change the course of the comet?

It depends... so humans have thoughts, and they have emotions and all that. But the decisions that they do may already be "decided" by fate, the velocity of the particles and the speed and direction. If that is the case, then we are only presented with the illusion of free will but not free will itself. And yet we cannot just not believe in free will, because if that is the case, then everyone will be sitting around waiting for fate to happen. And that's not going to work.

You understand my dilemma? And yet, if you think about the different levels of the human brain, and the subconscious and all that, then perhaps we do have a little free will though. I mean many things have already been written in your genes. Your facial features, your intelligence, and you family background, but there are many things that can change that too, whether it is from within or from outside influence.

[truefusion 3]

Predictions do not eliminate free will, nor is there such a thing as a physical process or force behind every physical process and force. For that reason you have to acknowledge that our conscious is at least metaphysical. In other words, any chemical process is a by-product or side effect of your consciousness: you willed, it followed. However, the problem with these discussions is that everyone is assuming a definition for "free will" and have not declared it explicitly, which may very well show by its definition that free will, no matter the scenario, is always present. Take for example if one says that "free will" means "to have a choice in the matter," what if we bring in an all-knowing being? Could you argue that you did not have a choice in the matter just because the all-knowing being knew what choice you were going to make? The all-knowing being didn't make the choice for you; there's no such thing as a physical process behind every physical process; so who made the choice for you except yourself? Therefore, in this case, even with there being an all-knowing entity, you would still have free will.If you wish to discuss this any further, at least attempt to define "free will" explicitly first, or else we will go in circles. I personally would label it as "to have a choice in the matter," even if this may be a simplified definition and even though i may seek something more sophisticated, but, believe it or not, i have not done much thinking on this subject.

[Nameless_ 1]

If you wish to discuss this any further, at least attempt to define "free will" explicitly first, or else we will go in circles. I personally would label it as "to have a choice in the matter," even if this may be a simplified definition and even though i may seek something more sophisticated, but, believe it or not, i have not done much thinking on this subject.

I believe that everyone's assumption of "free will" is the ability to make choices in life. However, another definition of "free will" could be "the perception of having the ability to make choices in life".

And to truefusion: You are saying that things may work the other way round. Most of us believe that it is the chemical processes in your brain and the particles that make us think. But you on the other hand, say that it is us that we willed the particles to move the way we want it to move.

And that is every interesting. Which one is correct?

It is like saying, whenever the doorbell rings, there is someone at the door. Therefore, the doorbell calls someone to the door. The doorbell makes someone arrive in front of your doorstep. This, we know, of course, isn't true. But we don't know if truefusion's point is true or not, and that is the problem.

[truefusion 3]

I believe that everyone's assumption of "free will" is the ability to make choices in life. However, another definition of "free will" could be "the perception of having the ability to make choices in life".

 

And to truefusion: You are saying that things may work the other way round. Most of us believe that it is the chemical processes in your brain and the particles that make us think. But you on the other hand, say that it is us that we willed the particles to move the way we want it to move.

 

And that is every interesting. Which one is correct?

My argument relies on the fact that it is physically impossible for there to be a physical process behind every physical process. For every physical process you would be asking, "Well, what caused this to move?" I don't believe anyone can show me that this physical impossibility does exist. If you say, "Why do we even have to consider this?" it is because since you (plural) do not allow for our own thoughts to be ran by a metaphysical entity, it follows that neither can anything else. Therefore you are "forced" accept something metaphysical. At this point you (plural) could try claiming just about any metaphysical force; however, that won't do.

 

Not every metaphysical force or entity can be argued to have a conscious—a conscious is required to have a will or desire. While this may potentially be the spot in my argument that it starts to lose ground, due to whether or not it is us or some higher entity doing the willing for us, we can safely assume that we ourselves are conscious entities, for you cannot perceive without a perceiver. Therefore either definition which you provided will allow for free will in any instance. For even if it were the case that you (plural) are not controlling your actions, you (plural), as a conscious entity, would perceive this to be true. But since you do not perceive this to be true, that is, seriously, you would "have to" accept that we have a conscious and that conscious is metaphysical and our conscious is what guides our bodies (at least in so far as it is capable of "responding" to us).

[Baniboy 3]

Yes, that is true. And if that is the case, then there is no such thing as probability either, is there? Because if the particles have only one way to act, then there will only be one possibility that can happen, if we don't think about the probability of quantum physics and knowing where one particle is at a certain period of time.
And if there is no probability, then history has already been written, and can be predicted. The only thing that we have to do is to wait for it to happen. And then here's the thing. Should we wait for things to happen, or should we just do things? And if we decided to wait, of course, it will never happen, because you didn't do it. If you want things to happen, and yet believe that there is no free will, then you will have to believe, even temporarily, that there is, and believe in yourself, and then do it as if you made things happen.

Someone may predict that you will become a famous lawyer one day, but it's not going to happen if you sit around waiting for it to happen. You will have to believe in free will and "make" it happen, if you understand what I mean. And that is where why you must believe in free will even if you don't.

Nope, probability doesn't exist. Though through the concept of probability, we can guess what is the most likely thing to happen. Let's think I throw dice. The probability of getting 1 is 1/6, or is it? It all depends on how I throw the damn thing, in which angle it comes down. And I know how to throw to get 6 all the time btw, nice thing to mess with friends with when we play monopoly .

And there's one thing some people don't seem to get when we are talking about the time continuum. You can't change it. If you calculated that the movement of current particles will lead to me being a famous liar(hah no offense anyone, just kidding!), and remember it would have lead to only one thing, it doesn't matter if I consciously do anything to help me become a lawyer or not, IT WILL STILL HAPPEN.

This whole thing doesn't matter anyway, I don't know why people are so keen to think and talk about it. Just relax, and continue your life normally, make decisions like you have always.

However, if we throw life into the equation we get something very different. Humans have sent material out of our planet through the solar system. Through the butterfly effect this could have tremendous consequences and it is something the big bang did not do on it's own. The BB did indeed make the humans who then made these changes but the humans are sentient. We can make our own decision based on events in life, our morals, teachings etc... and these things cannot be predicted or fated by the big bang in any scientific way. If there was no life in the universe then you would argue that fate exists. Each particle and energy "packet" was sent on a pre-defined course by the BB and it's interactions are 100% calculable given enough computer power. However, any simple life can affect the course of particles and the flow of energy. For example me freezing a pack of peas has taken energy from the sun and stored it in my freezer. Hence i have changed the flow in a way that *i* decided, not the big bang. But without me or the peas that sunlight energy would hit the earth and depending on the rotational position of the earth been reflected out into a specific part of space or absorbed into dark rocks etc...

No we don't get anything different. Life, our decisions, every movement of every particle needs a cause, interaction between particle has lead to us existing. All that, has lead us to making the decision of sending our crap through space. You can't change the time continuum.


As I said, if you agree with the things I listed in my earlier post, then free will is bull. Or if you think that there isn't a need for a physical cause for physical things happening like truefusion, it doesn't matter. Because we can never change, predict or recall time continuum. Calculating such a thing would be impossible. The lesson, be less philosophical, people! Little bit of philosophy isn't bad, but you achieve nothing else than confusing yourself by thinking about how you know the chair you're sitting on exists.