Virginia Tech

[Thorned Rose 0]

Your attitude is based on the false assumption that what works on your little island would work in America. Further you seem to be suffering from a Superiority complex. I think you'd be wise no stop shooting your mouth off and if you've got some statistics to throw out, then source them. Otherwise you're just another self-inflated pompous jerk with a fake English accent wearing rose-colored glasses. If you want real cause and effect statistics from real science, go read John Lott's, More Guns, Less Crime. The numbers don't lie. The areas in the United States where carrying concealed is allowed are the areas with less crime. Period, end of story. Those areas that have strick (illegal) laws prohibiting gun ownership or prohibit concealed carry such as Chicago, NYC, and Washington District of Columbia have enormously high crime and notoriously high gun crimes. (England has seen a recent rise in gun and projectile weapon crimes too, though such things are quite outlawed there...) Ironic, isn't it, that those places where guns are outlawed have the highest rates of gun-related crime... Makes a thinking, rational person think... Or at least it should.

Actually New Zealand is made up of several islands. I also find your use of the phrase "shooting your mouth off" rather ironic given the topic.

Fake english accent? My, my that sounds an awful lot like a personal insult. If you want to be personal - well my mother is English and while I don't have a stereotypical 'Kiwi' accent because of that, I'm not sure I would call it "fake".

As for wearing rose-tinted glasses - did you read my first post? Hardly rose-tinted. I've seen the effects of violence more than most.

I don't read books of that nature because they are people's opinions. I prefer to deal with hard statistics.

Nor do I see what one country has to do with this. My mother is from England, I'm not. I live in New Zealand. And last I knew, America and England don't constitute the whole of the western world. Guns are "outlawed" here in New Zealand and in Australia and most of Europe etc and yet you do not mention their gun rates - low. Perhaps because the statistics of those countries don't support your argument.

 

And thanks Smack! I really appreciate what you said. (I'm a gal FYI)

And thanks for doing the legwork on the links to stats and the like. I figured that somebody would probably accuse me of not having statistics or evidence to back up what I said but I was too tired this morning to look up links.

[Smack 0]

In that I'm someone who won't line up against a wall to wait for someone to shoot me, I'm someone who'll take my personal defense in my own hands, I AM SUPERIOR to the worm who'll cry and whimper about how evil guns are and how it's a tragedy and how if we only had more gun restrictions these things wouldn't happen... Yeah, you read that right, in that respect you're damn right I'm superior! Want me to say it again? Did you get that message?
Tell me honestly: How exactly are people suppose to be protected from other people when they don't have the same level playing field? Do you really believe it's going to turn out alright when someone goes to a gunfight with a squirt gun? Are the results predictable? Is a government agency motivated to follow the law when they've got all the guns and the citizens have none? Did you pay any attention when the FBI and ATF killed men, women, and children at the Branch Davidian Compound in Waco, TX? Doesn't it seem kinda strange to you they went to all that trouble over a simple warrant they could've served any time when Koresch was in town jogging or shopping? They were sending the rest of the country a message: We are above the law, we can kill children with impunity, and there's nothing you can do about it. And you know what? We've become so weak as a nation, I'm afraid they're right! Of course the Davidians were armed so Janet's boys had to bring in tanks, helicopters machine guns, and CS gas to get the job done. You remember that don't you?

Remember it? I practically lived next door. (Well, a few-teen miles) But I don't see what your point in bringing up this story was. Mr. David Koresch had many many guns at his disposal, everyone around him had an AK, grenades, the whole load. The result? Everyone around him was brutally murdered, the children, the women. A sad, sad event.

You aren't helping your view, you say you are superior because you have a gun? That is the problem. A gun doesn't make you powerful. And what makes you think that just because I believe guns create violence, that I don't own a gun? I live in Texas for Christ's sake. Haha.

[Watermonkey 0]

Actually New Zealand is made up of several islands. I also find your use of the phrase "shooting your mouth off" rather ironic given the topic.Fake english accent? My, my that sounds an awful lot like a personal insult. If you want to be personal - well my mother is English and while I don't have a stereotypical 'Kiwi' accent because of that, I'm not sure I would call it "fake".
As for wearing rose-tinted glasses - did you read my first post? Hardly rose-tinted. I've seen the effects of violence more than most.
I don't read books of that nature because they are people's opinions. I prefer to deal with hard statistics.
Nor do I see what one country has to do with this. My mother is from England, I'm not. I live in New Zealand. And last I knew, America and England don't constitute the whole of the western world. Guns are "outlawed" here in New Zealand and in Australia and most of Europe etc and yet you do not mention their gun rates - low. Perhaps because the statistics of those countries don't support your argument.

And thanks Smack! I really appreciate what you said. (I'm a gal FYI)
And thanks for doing the legwork on the links to stats and the like. I figured that somebody would probably accuse me of not having statistics or evidence to back up what I said but I was too tired this morning to look up links.

I'm glad you found my phraseology "ironic", though I actually intended it as a pun

I was just getting a jab in about the "near English" accent Kiwis and OZlanders have because it made up for the unwarranted attack on America you made

I really wish Americans would get over the moronic idea that to solve gun problems...

(in my mind), nothing personal.
"Books of that nature"? Uh... Well, you're obviously not familiar with the book. It consists of hard science, regardless of the attacks it's received from "the other side", it's never been discredited. It's not in the "fiction" section of your local library, btw...

Two other things for you and Smack to consider: There has never been a genocide committed against an armed populace. And Germany didn't invade Switzerland because there was and is a machine gun in nearly every house and someone trained to use it. Random chance? Coincidence? I think not...

[Smack 0]

There has never been a genocide committed against an armed populace.

Have you seen people in these poor countries? Children carry machine guns. They have the ability to wield guns better than many hunters around the world since they are brought up by the gun, it is their only protection in a world rife with war.

All it takes is for the government to fall in an area and then anyone with a gun can be king, remember New Orleans?

[Watermonkey 0]

You aren't helping your view, you say you are superior because you have a gun? That is the problem. A gun doesn't make you powerful. And what makes you think that just because I believe guns create violence, that I don't own a gun? I live in Texas for Christ's sake. Haha.

I never mentioned owning a gun. I'm talking about an attitude here, a philosophy. I'm talking about a population of people who, apparently, would sooner just stand there and get shot then actually rush the bad guy with the gun. You don't even need a gun to win that fight, all you need is sheer numbers. Did you know that many of the genocidal crimes committed in Germany during WWII were done by soldiers holding rifles that had no rounds? It's true. All the ammo was needed on the fronts of the war so many of the soldiers weren't actually armed! If the victims had only made up their collective minds they weren't going to be "victims" any more, it would've been over for the German occupation of places like Poland, or the Warsaw Ghetto(?) (can't think of the exact name right now) or any of a number of other places. It's all about having the "Superior" mentality it takes to survive oppressors or having the "Inferior" mentality of someone who'll just stand there waiting for the bullet with their name on it to strike them down. Superiority denotes a Darwineon(sp?) attitude of survival of the fittest and smartest. That's what superior means. It means only those with the "Superior" attitude of survival will make it and the others who've already given up will not. So which are you?

[Smack 0]

I never mentioned owning a gun. I'm talking about an attitude here, a philosophy. I'm talking about a population of people who, apparently, would sooner just stand there and get shot then actually rush the bad guy with the gun. You don't even need a gun to win that fight, all you need is sheer numbers. Did you know that many of the genocidal crimes committed in Germany during WWII were done by soldiers holding rifles that had no rounds? It's true. All the ammo was needed on the fronts of the war so many of the soldiers weren't actually armed! If the victims had only made up their collective minds they weren't going to be "victims" any more, it would've been over for the German occupation of places like Poland, or the Warsaw Ghetto(?) (can't think of the exact name right now) or any of a number of other places. It's all about having the "Superior" mentality it takes to survive oppressors or having the "Inferior" mentality of someone who'll just stand there waiting for the bullet with their name on it to strike them down. Superiority denotes a Darwineon(sp?) attitude of survival of the fittest and smartest. That's what superior means. It means only those with the "Superior" attitude of survival will make it and the others who've already given up will not. So which are you?

I'm sure many times you did mention owning guns. However, I do agree with you that some could of tried to rush the lone gunman and could had possibly saved many lives in doing so - but at risking their own. On 9/11, some in one of the flights, my mind slips at which, rushed the cockpit and was able to make the plane crash in Pennsylvania. (I hope I'm straight on this) So I agree with you that we should stand up for ourselves. You can look at the VPC for statistics on who stands up for themselves when crimes are occuring. Or maybe it was on the Gallup poll. Either way the study said men are more likely to stand up for themselves than women, but women, when armed, are more likely to use that force. Odd, eh? ..Anyways, I would have to hold to the theory that more guns = more crime. Edited April 17, 2007 by Smack (see edit history)

[jlhaslip 4]

Tragic, simply tragic. I just don't have any better words to describe my thoughts on this. I know an Instructor at Virginia Technical Institute that is an Engineering Instructor. I'll need to send him a note tonght. I only hope that he and his family are safe. One of their sons attends the school, but I believe he lives at home still, so the Dorm shootings isn't an issue for him, I don't think.I wish the best thoughts for the students and their families. I would think we all do.

[Saint_Michael 3]

Now it's up to 33 people that have died on this tragic even last I heard (about 30 minutes ago). Whats going to more tragic is the families of the victims will have to constantly deal with the media coverage over this as the media will keep on talking about this event like beating a dead horse. Yeah it's big news for everyone especially in Virginia about what happen, but now it will be a ratings race for everyone when updates are made about who the shooter was and his family and the names of the victims and their families being constantly hounded for interviews. Don't take it as me being cold hearted about this tragic event I feel for those who lost a love one, but one thing the media does best is keep bringing up the past and not letting it go, I already can guarantee that 60 Minutes will be a report about in about a month or so, maybe 48 hours will be doing about it. I know Fox News and CNN will be milking this for awhile and all this time they won't let the families grieve properly.I hope the families of these victims will be able grieve without the media asking 30 million questions.

[Forbez 0]

I couldn't belive it when I heard about. Massive tredgy. I hope they clear it all up though,. The parents must feel the worse though. BUt what a bastard, killing innocent people then killing himself.

[Thorned Rose 0]

I was just waiting for some red-necked, gun-toting, arrogant type to come along and mouth off about how wonderful guns are and how wonderful they are. I knew it would happen because like religious fanatics, they can't help themselves. And like religious fanatics, they always have an answer, even if it completely contradicts reality. Well Watermonkey, you have once again shown just how ignorant, naive and arrogant pro-nra types are. Thanks for the laugh. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your rather zealous posts. Oh, and thanks for making my point for me.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Thorned Rose (see edit history)

[shadowx 0]

Yeah, you read that right, in that respect you're damn right I'm superior! Want me to say it again? Did you get that message?

This is the stereotypical american view, i apologise to anyone who doesnt have this opinion, that guns=superior. The american system is ludicrous it really is. "Lets all have guns, nothing bad will ever happen to us..." yeh..that works..

Im english and damn proud of the fact i DONT carry a gun, or any weapon infact. Now the main reason is i could get put into prison for a little while, criminal record yada yada but also statistics (yes i admit i dont have them because it was a TV show and i cant find it on the net) suggested that if youre getting mugged or what not with a knife and you pull a knife then your more likely to get hurt so carrying weapons isnt always effective. Now hypothetically, yes if you were there with your almighty gun you could have shot him down and been a hero... tho you yourself said that not many shots are fatal.. so theres a mad man, probably already pissed off, with a gun and he gets shot in the arm.. well thats going to make him submit isnt it... no hes going to realise theres nothing to loose and shoot you back and then kill some more of your friends.

Yes i agree fully that someone could have "rushed" him and taken him down and disarmed him but once a guy with a gun gets you into the submissive mind frame its hard to get out of.

Now lets say that guns were outlawed in the USA...but first ask yourself where this guy got the gun from, the friendly gun store, along with lots of ammo, maybe even some practice at a gun range.. now if guns were outlawed as they are here in the UK that guy would need background checks etc.. to make sure hes not insane and a criminal, then he would need a safe storage area for the gun and a seperate area for the ammo, and i think he would need to take some lessons in gun handling and join a gun club. He still gets to shoot the gun etc.. but its much much safer. Now of course our psychotic madman could buy a gun on the streets and still have killed these students, however its unlikely a random madman would go through that effort and risk of approaching gansters asking to buy guns. Mainly the "hardcore" criminals would carry guns and although its not good that they are carrying a gun at least they dont just go kill students...

So guns are outlawed = great reduction in the chances that this would even have happened. How many times has this happened in other countries where guns are outlawed not as often as America. Of course its tragic but suprising, unfortunately not.

Americans need to down their guns. They dont make you special, in my opinion they make you a weakling who is afraid to fight up close, in person, you hide behind a gun and the power you think it gives you. Unlike in Hollywood movies guns dont protect you, they harm others as we have seen. And as said if someone in the college did have a gun perhaps they could shoot him down.. and then get arrested and put away for life, or even worse they could anger the guy and cause yet more deaths.

The fact they still let students in after two had already been shot simply amazes me... The person who made that decision doesnt deserve the air they breathe, the blood of over 30 is on their hands.

[Smack 0]

So, I wake up this morning and turn on the television and am greeted by a how-to story on CNN. "Let us show you what guns the gunman used and how easy it is to get them!" Isn't the latter part, how easy it is, counter-productive? "If you wanna do it - here's how!" .. I agree with you shadowx, whomever made the decision to still let other students into the university after the first shots should be fired. After something like this has happened they should of closed the University for the rest of the day not allowing anyone to enter.. Besides I thought that was what 'lockdown' meant?Offtopic: Why was this topic moved to health and fitness, it definately does not belong here. Seems as though its inititial spot was well placed..Update: They have now identified the gunman. He was an English major from South Korea. His name is Cho Seung-hui. And President Bush is supposed to speak on the VT campus at 1 PM ET, I believe. Though I may be wrong on the time.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Smack (see edit history)

[Thorned Rose 0]

oh yes he's been identified and already the racism started. They we're doing an interview with a guy who specialises in guns and their sociological impact etc and he was saying that he doesn't think that this will change anything, that people will blame this event on violent movies, computer games, depression, anti-social behaviour, bad parenting, drugs and the fact that the guy was from Korea - anything BUT the fact that easy access to guns was a big if not the biggest part of the problem.Gees.... I wonder how many people it will take to be injured, maimed and killed before the U.S. finally does something about it's crazy gun laws. Apparently the 30,000 odd people killed and 75,000 people injured each year aren't enough!

[FolkRockFan 0]

Guns are not good or evil, wonderful or terrible. They're just tools. Like your computer (or mine, for that matter). Or a car. Or whatever other inanimate object you'd like to think about.The person behind the gun should be the focus of attention here. The shooter at Virginia Tech was an evil, rage-filled scumbag who could not cope with reality. According to several TV news reports, he had shown warning signs for a while. One of his profs, for example, read some of his more violent essays and attempted to refer him (the student/shooter) to counseling. That of course didn't happen.Had I walked into the gun shop and bought the exact handguns that the shooter bought, they would not have killed thirty-plus students. Had you bought the computer that I'm using right now, it would have a different MP3 collection on the hard drive. Point being, quite simply, that the person who uses the tool is the one who makes the choices of how to use it.

[aminzzlink 1]

What a pity , i'm sorry for them ....