The Possibility Of Gay Rights Should it be allowed?

[BooZker 0]

Gay rights has been a controversial topic for a long time. In this discussion i would like you to please NOT include religion. The reason is in America the choices are not supposed to be based on religion. So with that in mind read on.For me i don't understand why this is even a controversial topic. I can understand people who are against it for religious reasons, but why else. If nothing else then it should be allowed right? No, i guess not. Why is it such a big deal. George Bush even wants to make it an amendment against it. The reasons why most laws are made are for safety and so the country does not go into chaos. Being gay, homosexual, does not hurt anyone. In fact it is hard to be a gay male/female. Not many people agree with it and they could lose the friends. So why is this illegal. I think they should be able to get married. They are life partners now anyway. Would it make that much of a difference? I guess they would get tax cuts and a piece of paper showing they are married, but not really anything else. To be staight up i think its none of anyones business.What do you guys think?

[Tyssen 0]

In this discussion i would like you to please NOT include religion.

10-1 that someone in this thread includes religion anyway.

[Munde 0]

Okay, first of all I'm not an American. Actually I'm from Denmark, the first country in the world that made gay marrige legal...I totally agree. There is nothing wrong with being gay in any way and if they cant get married, then I would call it discrimination... America is a free country. If you believe in marriage, then you should be free to marriage no matter who you chose to do so with.About the laws I can only say this much: How can it be legal to smoke - and thereby harm yourself and your surroundings and get extremely addicted.. aka. a bad thing, but not marry the one you love?The thing about America (besides being run by a bunch of mindless idiots -sorry, couldn't help it) is that a lot of people are very narrow minded. I'm sorry, but they are. Few even cares what is going on outside America... They just listen proudly when they are told that America is the best country in the world... They are told that there's freedom and justice for all.. uhm! Except for gays, blacks, immigrants, homeless people, poor people, asian people and so on! If this is truely a free country with justice for ALL, how can it not be legal to marry whoever you want to... Love is the greatest thing.Uhm, official appology if I offended any American. I'm not saying this is a horrible place, just that there's things here very different from where I come from and.. For me it seems kind of wrong. I am. as I said, from Denmark, and not use to see poverty, discrimination and extreme religion as you are...

[kasm 0]

Okay, first of all I'm not an American. Actually I'm from Denmark, the first country in the world that made gay marrige legal...

I totally agree. There is nothing wrong with being gay in any way and if they cant get married, then I would call it discrimination... America is a free country. If you believe in marriage, then you should be free to marriage no matter who you chose to do so with.

 

About the laws I can only say this much: How can it be legal to smoke - and thereby harm yourself and your surroundings and get extremely addicted.. aka. a bad thing, but not marry the one you love?

 

The thing about America (besides being run by a bunch of mindless idiots -sorry, couldn't help it) is that a lot of people are very narrow minded. I'm sorry, but they are. Few even cares what is going on outside America... They just listen proudly when they are told that America is the best country in the world... They are told that there's freedom and justice for all..

uhm! Except for gays, blacks, immigrants, homeless people, poor people, asian people and so on! If this is truely a free country with justice for ALL, how can it not be legal to marry whoever you want to... Love is the greatest thing.

Uhm, official appology if I offended any American. I'm not saying this is a horrible place, just that there's things here very different from where I come from and.. For me it seems kind of wrong. I am. as I said, from Denmark, and not use to see poverty, discrimination and extreme religion as you are...

 

 

- It is not normal. Show me in nature, any other animals have homosextual relationship. In facts in wild, two adult lions can not live in the same region. Two queen bees can not be together, they have to divide their kingdom.

 

- It is against the production of next generation.

 

- If for any reason the gay people can not act as nature expect from them, then let this not by shouting or make prades or asking equality in every items of life . Disable people can be respected but they have to know their abnormality. The blind or deaf people have not to go fight and say it is equality. The people with heart problem have not to practice hard activities. People with bone problem have not to compete in running or swimming. People with sight problem and using glasses better to them not participate in some activitites.

 

You asked my opinion and I gave it.

Notice from jlhaslip:

Deleted duplicate posting.

Edited April 30, 2006 by jlhaslip (see edit history)

[jlhaslip 4]

I don't understand the exclusion of Religion on this topic. Isn't there a phrase on the back of each American dollar bill which states "In God We Trust"? How can we possibly exclude Religion in this topic when the American mindset is so tied to Religion that it is written on all of your almighty dollars?Additionally, there is a morality issue involved here and Religion plays a part in each of our Moral opinions. Whether you believe in a "Christian" God, or any God at all, there is an influence there which will impact our opinions which has as its root the religious beliefs we hold, so I suspect, as does Tyssen, that it will be nearly impossible to dis-allow Religion from this debate.I look forward to reviewing the replies.

[Dragonfly 0]

Gay Rights is a very controversial one. I do not understand their stand very well so my perception about them may not be too deep. However, as far as my understanding goes in a country which is too free, I feel that there may be more gays than it is actually supposed to be - because some people just want to try out new things and they are finally addicted to it. Though there may be real gays - but in that kind of situation there might be people who practice gay because they have experimented. So, too much freedom may be bad if not used properly. In Asia, and Middle East Gay Rights is not an issue because most of the people think it as immoral to do so but still who are gays are still living as gay. So, marriages to become legal does not arise as well. For me, I do not want to really see gay marriage being legalized. It should be treated at par with Prostitutes who are doing what they want. Prostitution may be legalized likewise Gays should be given space to do what they want to do, but not legalizing their marriages. Marriages should be only between man and woman.That is my take. As much as gays have the right to say what they think is right - I do have the right to say what I think is correct.

[Tyssen 0]

Whether you believe in a "Christian" God, or any God at all, there is an influence there which will impact our opinions which has as its root the religious beliefs we hold, so I suspect, as does Tyssen, that it will be nearly impossible to dis-allow Religion from this debate.

That wasn't actually what I was hinting at. There's so many obviously religious people on this board that I felt sure that it would be too much for someone to resist bringing it up.

[WindAndWater 0]

- It is not normal. Show me in nature, any other animals have homosextual relationship. In facts in wild, two adult lions can not live in the same region. Two queen bees can not be together, they have to divide their kingdom.

 

A substantial minority of wild animals are homosexual (http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/). And I suppose that since animals don't have free will or souls, God wanted them to fornicate with their own sex...::rolls his eyes::

 

I think the entire discussion over gay marriage is flawed. Religious marriage is not comparable to legal marriage. States should issue couples civil union licenses, and whether they're married should be between them and their religious leader. That way you're free to say that homosexuals aren't allowed to marry under your religion, but I'm fine to say that they are under mine.

[matto 0]

- It is not normal. Show me in nature, any other animals have homosextual relationship. In facts in wild, two adult lions can not live in the same region. Two queen bees can not be together, they have to divide their kingdom.

 

While I may not be the person to say this, I can assure you that it is normal. There have been scientific studies of childeren who simply choose to act more "feminine" than the other boys (in fact, the children who were studied for the specific study i'm talking about were TWINS, and one boy was "boyish", the other boy was "girlish"). This happened under the same parenting. Later, though not necessarely true, the study showed that the girlish boy would later become gay.

 

And my reason for it not occuring in nature is the fact that all other animals have been shown to be less intelligent than humans. It is more than likely that the thought never really came up to them.

- It is against the production of next generation.

 

Are you honestly saying that this world needs MORE reproduction? THe populations are friggin HUGE dude.

- If for any reason the gay people can not act as nature expect from them, then let this not by shouting or make prades or asking equality in every items of life . Disable people can be respected but they have to know their abnormality. The blind or deaf people have not to go fight and say it is equality. The people with heart problem have not to practice hard activities. People with bone problem have not to compete in running or swimming. People with sight problem and using glasses better to them not participate in some activitites.

 

So you are saying that being gay is similar to having a heart disease, or not having functional legs?

And it seems as if, in this particular quote, you are saying nothing but that gays aren't able to function like a couple of different sexes (as in, can't have kids). So what? What's your point?

 

 

Gay Rights is a very controversial one. I do not understand their stand very well so my perception about them may not be too deep. However, as far as my understanding goes in a country which is too free, I feel that there may be more gays than it is actually supposed to be - because some people just want to try out new things and they are finally addicted to it. Though there may be real gays - but in that kind of situation there might be people who practice gay because they have experimented. So, too much freedom may be bad if not used properly.

 

Umm... so you are saying that gays might not be "real" gays, and therefore shouldn't be allowed to marry? If they are not real gays, they would not stay "fake gay" long enough to marry, and thus that should not be a problem.

In Asia, and Middle East Gay Rights is not an issue because most of the people think it as immoral to do so but still who are gays are still living as gay. So, marriages to become legal does not arise as well.

 

So what? The United States are not Asia, nor the Middle East.

For me, I do not want to really see gay marriage being legalized. It should be treated at par with Prostitutes who are doing what they want. Prostitution may be legalized likewise Gays should be given space to do what they want to do, but not legalizing their marriages. Marriages should be only between man and woman.

 

Why? What compells you to say that (talking about your last sentence) (unless its no different than your last two paragraphs...) And also, I don't see your comparison between prostitutes and gays to be very accurate. You see, prostitutes go out and live on the street, have no jobs (except for being a prostitute), and just have sex over and over and over again. Gays are actually in relationships. I live in San Francisco, I see them and know them. They don't go walking around the street with one guy's hand down the other guy's pants or something like that... no that does not happen. Your comparison of gays and prostitutes is both inaccurate and disrespectful to gays.

 

 

 

And thus, I think gays should be given the rights to be wed. My first argument is that it does not harm anyone. No one is going to suddenly be sick to the stomache when they see two guys standing next to each other, being (or believing that they are) in love. I'll add more arguments later, if the need arises =p

 

edit: took out end of the guy's quote that was left in, and:

 

I agree with WindandWater's idea. It should be legal to be married and be gay, but religions should still have the right to not marry someone because of being gay. That's a good compromise.

Edited April 30, 2006 by matto (see edit history)

[42ndEndOfTheWorld 0]

Here's something that says everything:

10 reasons Gay Marriage is wrong:
1. Being gay is not natural. And as you know Americans have always rejected unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

2. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

3. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because, as you know, a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

4. Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.

5. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed. The sanctity of Britany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

6. Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.

7. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

8. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.

9. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

10. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.

[Kioku 0]

Why don't we just allow people to marry animals or inanimate objects while we're at it?

[gaea 0]

Gay rights has been a controversial topic for a long time. In this discussion i would like you to please NOT include religion. The reason is in America the choices are not supposed to be based on religion.

Actually, the only thing that is required and, debatibly, inforced is the seperation of church and state. But that doesn't mean that the policies inacted by the goverment can't stem from religious thought. That happens all the time. Hell, Bush even said that "God" told him to invade Iraq (scary, no?). Not to mention the whole block of so called "values voters" that the right is currently catering to...as if no one but those with their religious affinity could possibly have morals *rolls his eyes*. Anyways, i'm getting sidetracked from the topic. Just thought that was an importaint distinction to point out.

 

Why is it such a big deal. George Bush even wants to make it an amendment against it.

Well, that was a purely political ploy to rally support from the religious minority. If you look back to the last senate/house elections you'll find that similar statewide measures were put on the ballot with the express reason that it'd draw voters friendly to the republican cause.

 

The reasons why most laws are made are for safety and so the country does not go into chaos. Being gay, homosexual, does not hurt anyone.

I completely agree. Unforunatly those uneducated about these issues may feel differently. Many people still see being homosexual as being "morally wrong" (an importain disctinction from "religiously wrong," although many times there certainly are corrilations). Some people also believe that homosexuality is contagious. That gay people can spread their "gayness," infecting strait people and causing an epidemic. Quite laughable when you examine the scientific research...but that doesn't stop ignorant people's fervernt belief in it anyways (especially when it comes to subjects like homosexual couples adopting kids).

 

I would also disagree that our laws are created for the "safety and [sic] order of the country." While that is certainly the founding intent of them, now adays laws are based off of politics--not unbaised (as close as you can get anyways) examiniations of the relavent evidence.

 

I think they should be able to get married. They are life partners now anyway. Would it make that much of a difference? I guess they would get tax cuts and a piece of paper showing they are married, but not really anything else. To be staight up i think its none of anyones business.

A good compramise has been reached with states that have created "civil union" laws. These laws give homosexual people the same exact rights as married couples--just lacking the name. Some homosexuals are irked about conceeding this point...but I'd rather fight for the things which have direct reprocussions, instead of a purely idealistic battle (there are enough terrible things in the world to act against that i can't conde knit-picking over issues). Edited April 30, 2006 by gaea (see edit history)

[PmH 0]

Although people are wanting to exclude religion from this topic I think that's impossible. I'm not religious, but religion may guide one's values as my agnosticity (?) guides mine.And those dollar bills with "In God We Trust" or what have you were made so long ago, back when religion guided government and everyone's way of life, now it is much more different. If religion guided every aspect of your life, that would be one very difficult life to lead.As for gay rights.- I don't think gays should have the right to marriage.- Homosexuality is not natural, it is not supported by evolutionary psychology; if humans were all gay, we'd die out in one generation, trust me.- I think that homosexuality shouldn't be looked as something funny though and shouldn't be the subject of insults, I see it more as a psychological discrepency. Much like we don't use deppression in insults, we shouldn't use homosexuality.- I have no problem being friends with homosexuals, they are, after all people, whether they like the opposite gender or not- Religion should not guide the goverment in making decisions on gay rights- And I DO NOT agree with "gay parents will raise gay children" -- If straight parents can raise gay children, then why can't gay parents raise straight children?- I think people are discrimating, too much and making assumptions (like the one above) just as an excuse to denote gay rights- However, I DO AGREE with the fact that the more rights that gays get, notably marriage rights, then the more popular homosexuality will be, whether or not the person really is homosexual, and that is why I do not support things like gay marriage. Something wrong should not be encouraged-----I really don't want to offend any homosexuals, so if you do find some of this material offending then it is probably my ignorance and short coming that we can not all see alike.

[gaea 0]

It is not normal. Show me in nature, any other animals have homosextual relationship.

Sure. I'd refer you to Biological Exuberance : Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity by P.H.D Bruce Bagemihl. Here are a few examples, though there are many many more: bonobo chimpanzees (which are, interestingly enough, 100% bisexual), silver gulls, black headed gulls, Japanese macaques, galahs, and bottlenosed dolphins. I can list many more if you want...but won't waste space on it unless asked.

It is against the production of next generation.

Homosexuality is not natural, it is not supported by evolutionary psychology; if humans were all gay, we'd die out in one generation, trust me.

If you are going to evoke evolution/Darwinism please examine all the facets. A very good case has been made that homosexuality is (scientifically) another form of population control. The same way disease, famine, and natural disasters help to keep a tight reign on animal populations. These are nature's checks and balances. We've worked hard to eliminate many of them through technology and innovation, further exacerbating other issues.

... I feel that there may be more gays than it is actually supposed to be - because some people just want to try out new things and they are finally addicted to it. Though there may be real gays - but in that kind of situation there might be people who practice gay because they have experimented.

Being gay isn't some sort of drug. There is no way you can get "addicted" to it (unless you're prepared to argue that others are "addicted" to being strait, having friends, enjoying practically any other activity, etc ad infinitum).
That being said, I do agree that some people experiment with homosexuality. I also agree that some heterosexual/bisexual individuals may temporarily believe that they are gay. But if they are not homosexual they will realize that fact eventually. Strait people can't "become" gay any more than gay people can "become" strait. Your sexual orientation is something you're born with, like the color of your skin or you eyes. Sure, you can repress your feelings of attraction towards a specific gender--but just because you don't act on your feelings doesn't mean that you don't have them. Sexual orientation is based upon emotions, not on actions (which are merely a repercussion).

I really don't want to offend any homosexuals, so if you do find some of this material offending then it is probably my ignorance and short coming that we can not all see alike.

I'm not homosexual myself, but I certainly appreciate your willingness to have an open minded discussion. There will always be differences of opinion, but at least we can have intelligent mature conversations about them Edited May 1, 2006 by gaea (see edit history)

[WindAndWater 0]

Since people seem to have missed it on their first readthrough, I will say it again, this time in bold:

Homosexuality is natural. A stable minority of animals show homosexual tendancies. This statement well documented, and for all intensive purposes falls into the realm of scientifically neigh-unrefutable fact. You can say that homsexuality goes against your religious or personal beliefs, but to proclaim that it goes against Nature is a fallacy.

 

Why don't we just allow people to marry animals or inanimate objects while we're at it?

Many people felt the same way about allowing whites and blacks to intermarry half a century ago. I find the ease in which you marginalize another person's humanity to be very disturbing. Could you please explain why you hold such a strong point of view?

 

And off topic: Gaea, bonobos are *not* chimpanzees, nor, as I recall are they all bisexual. And since I'm digressing already, did anyone know that bonobos are the only completely pacifistic primates? They also resemble hairy humans to a very scary degree.