Abortion

[Plenoptic 0]

I look at it this way, if you don't want to have a child you shouldn't have done what you did in the first place. No one should kill their child because they don't want the responcibility.

[Mike83 0]

I look at it this way, if you don't want to have a child you shouldn't have done what you did in the first place.  No one should kill their child because they don't want the responcibility.

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A womans body is her own, and she has no obligation to render her services in support of another for 9 months if she does not want to.

[OCAC 0]

First o all.  I am not against the death oenalty.  God says, thou shalt not kill.  The innocent. 

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Thank you for your honesty and the revealing of your double standards.

 

Where does it say in Exodus, that you shall not kill the innocent? It only says you shall not kill. Nothing about the innocent. That is your interpretation. My interpretation is. Killing is never right and always causes harm, regardless of who kills who, when and where. I have not said, abortion is good and should be done, I have said, abortion is sometimes the only solution to save a life and I AM NOT THE ONE to JUDGE, nor is anybody else that is not involved.

 

But God says in His word that we have the government, or rulers, to execute His wrath on those that are workers of evil.

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Some men in the resistance against Adolf Hitler (the ones that did the attempt on 20 of July 44)where very pious folks, who had long, long, long discussions about exactly this problem. Is it right to remove a government, put in place as they believed by God, because it does evil? They answered with, yes after long years of deliberation, because ultimately it is bad governance. It is governance against God.

I am also sure that you sometimes criticise those that are in power, for their un-christian ways. Even though they were put there by God (and not the electorate...). Does that verse removes all responsibility from Governance? No. Look at the Old Testament prophets for how to deal with governance. Look at Jesus for how to deal with governance and the law. (The story in Mark I quoted earlier)

 

Now when we talk about jealousy, we have to look at the Bible.  The ten commandments are always first, then we move down to the more specifs mentioned elsewhere in the Bible.  Here we go.

God is a jealous God, and therefore wants us to worship Him.  Unserstandable, because He created us.  He is devine.  We however, are human, putting are selfish actions first.  Jealousy is not ours to have.  We can see this in the Bible.

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but how can we attribute a negative to God, if he is all white?

 

So in the Bible, we have a black for man and a white for God.  It's like this, abortion is wrong.  We do not have the choice of death, but God does.  Does that make Him evil?  No.  He is executing wrath on people like murders.  Never the innocent. 

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If God never kills the innocent, what about earthquakes and storms and the tsunami. I am sure, one or two of the millions, that are killed in those incidents are innocent and holy. Would you not say?

This means that if anything we should be killing the rapists.  Although not to the extreme.  I don't have a heretical view.

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Thanks for correction me here, I meant to have said that you have heretical views, not that you are a heretic. But I stand by what I have said. One question.

 

The man, we call Jesus, was he human?

 

 

But I don't believe in killing something innocent.  I am not condemning you or anyone else.  But the practice itself.  God says to hate the sin, and not the sinner.  Abortion is wrong, so I fight againt it.  See people ake it very offensively.  Please don't.  Its not you, but the practice of abortion.

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I don;t like abortion either, but in a way you say the death penalty is o.k in certain circumstances because it only ever wants to kill the guilty ups, and leading war is o.k in certain circumstance, I say abortion is o.k in certain circumstances, because there are always reasons and the choice should be with the person most affected and the law should protect this choice against people that want to harm the person making this choice. That is good governance.

[wild20 0]

I am sorry. Let me clear this up. It doesn't say, the onnocent. I am saying that by the power given to the government to execure His wrath on the evil, it it giving the circumstanstial evidence to show that we can make the assumtion that the innocent should never be killed. And then the guilty are judged through the government. i.e. Murderers

The problems with other governments that are not in accordance with the Bible doesn't remove their power. But it makes them wrong and it is very irresponsible. God gave the power to the government and there it will stay. But remember that in the Bible it says that we should obey God rather then men. This signifies that the government has power, but if they sayed, stop worshiping God, I believe we would know which to obey.

In response to your question:

but how can we attribute a negative to God, if he is all white?

It isn't a negative for God. It merely is using a "human" term, to describe God. He is saying that here jealousy is good. Remember words mean different things in different situations. It is like this. We have anger at what? At things we don't like. Things such as a boss, or people in our lives. However, God has anger too. But does it make it a bad attribute? No. Without anger justice cannot be delivered. But it doesn't mean God is part evil does it? No. So we have to look at the bigger picture. What if there was a great preacher. I went to see his sermon. It was great. Amazing. But I didn't see it because I was looking at how his shoe had become untied. God is righteous. The Bible says this. It also says he is the same forever. Correct? Then it means He is White forever and ever because He is righteous.

Yes, millions of people were killed in natural disasters. It was awful. Now what this has to do with abortion, I have know idea. But I will answer it. As a christian you should that God kicked satan out of heaven. Satan's whole thing is that he could do a better job then God. Remember iniquity was found in his heart because he was full of pride. Probably wanting God's place. But I believe he also accused God that God was unfair. Even if he didn't the world would know the unfairness if God was to kill satan outright. So He had to give him a chance. We are satan's chance. That is why we have to be saved. The tsunamis are satan's fault that God allows so that we may say that satan is rotten to the core! The universe will know in the end what happens when things are not guided by God. I believe it also teaches us that nothing on this sinful earth is forever and that God is the only way.

Another question? Okay. Yes, Jesus was human. Why? Because He had to be. If he was not, we would be nothing. If He still was devine, it would mean nothing. He would still be strengthened by His power. And although He had power. He had to be a human with that power. Why? He had to come down here as a human and live a perfect and blamless life. Right, am I not? Therefore He had to be a person who had marvelous power. Not a God.

But back to abortion. I told you, I believe that the death penalty is okay in the hands of:
1. The government, and if,
2. It is accordance with God's will.
Wars are never right unless directed specificly by God. However I do support the war for the one cause that they are trying to defend our country. Remember that if we followed God all the way back in bible times till now, God would always protect us or give us guidance. But we don't and now we have fallen into a sinful world. We don't have God's guidance and literally have to live without His guidance now and this means we are lost. But again, I cannot agree with abortion because it has no Bible based backing to it, and two, it conflicts directly with the Ten Commandments.

[OCAC 0]

I am sorry.  Let me clear this up.  It doesn't say, the onnocent.  I am saying that by the power given to the government to execure His wrath on the evil,

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Who makes that judgement?

 

it it giving the circumstanstial evidence to show that we can make the assumtion that the innocent should never be killed. 

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Who makes that judgement? can you not see, how you interpret the bible in YOUR interest? "We can make the assumption" Who is we. The male population of the world? Why not the child bearer?

 

And then the guilty are judged through the government.  i.e.  Murderers

The problems with other governments that are not in accordance with the Bible doesn't remove their power.  But it makes them wrong and it is very irresponsible.

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Who makes that judgement?

 

God gave the power to the government and there it will stay.  But remember that in the Bible it says that we should obey God rather then men.  This signifies that the government has power, but if they sayed, stop worshiping God, I believe we would know which to obey.

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  Without anger justice cannot be delivered.

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You mean lynch mobs?

 

Justice and anger are two very opposing things.

 

Yes, millions of people were killed in natural disasters.  It was awful.  Now what this has to do with abortion, I have know idea. 

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You are saying God does not kill innocent people. but if he is responsible for earthquakes, and some such, he might kill one or two in the process. Babies, in their sleep...

 

 

 

Another question?  Okay.  Yes, Jesus was human.  Why?  Because He had to be.  If he was not, we would be nothing.  If He still was devine, it would mean nothing. 

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The reason why I asked this question is, if Jesus was a human, he had all the faults of a human, because, otherwise, what is the point of coming to earth, being born to a human mother, into a human family? If Jesus were just a God, than there is no sacrifice, than he cannot be an example for us, because then he would be special in a way that is not achievable for "normal" sinner - the rest of humanity. But because Jesus was a human and because all human are fallen, he was fallen as well. He struggled with God in the Garden, asking for the cup to pass him by, not wanting to accept the direction his path would take. If Jesus was only divine, there was no point in him coming to earth.

 

 

But back to abortion.  I told you, I believe that the death penalty is okay in the hands of:

1.  The government, and if,

2.  It is accordance with God's will.

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who judges that? and don;t tell me it is Exodus.... No, someone has to make the judgement, that Exodus applies to that situation and I am asking who that someone is.

[wild20 0]

Who judges that?

What is that your favorite question? I don't need to. Its in the Bible. No one judges it. It is the unconditional word of God that has whta we need to know. You still have failed to tell me where in the Bible it even gives the hint that we can have an abortion and kill innocent babies. So now I am getting tired because I feel you are avoiding the questions when I have answered all your's.

However, I will give you the answers.

I am sorry.  Let me clear this up.  It doesn't say, the onnocent.  I am saying that by the power given to the government to execure His wrath on the evil,

It says that in the Bible. I gave you the text. So I don't need to make a judgment.

it giving the circumstanstial evidence to show that we can make the assumtion that the innocent should never be killed. 

It says in the Bible not to kill. It says in the later books that the government can be used to execute God's wrath on the EVIL. That is where I get that. Now if it said, to execute His wrath on the good, then well, I would have a question there. But if we are not to kill, the government is the source of decision for the EVIL. Not the good. Not abortion involving the killing of innocent babies. Do you see now? It is the only interpretation you can get from this. Because obviously we can't kill the innocent.

Now on to the rest. I said God is not responsible for the natural disasters. So please put that to rest. We are trying to stay on topic. If you remember as well, that God was always angry before wiping out or punishing someone. So from this we can see that a loving God protects His people. But of course He is a little angry when we disobey. Besides, who cares about the differences between these two? I gave the reason why it is not a negetive attribute. So unless there is further question about this as well, then we can also set this aside.

Moving on, we continue to Jesus' life on earth. He had no problems or faults, or He would have also been just a man who died a bad death. He had to live a COMPLETELY blameless life. Okay?

Continuing again, I will tell you the reason for the fact that the death penalty is circumstantial. First though, I have to ask the question. Are you disagreeing with me on this? Do you believe that a death penalty should not involve God? He left the government to administer, HIS wrath, not their own. So we need to consult the Bible. Well, it says the evil, so if they are evil, then the government administers justice. But if is not evil people, which is then out of God's will, then we have a problem. Look forward to you're reply. Have a good day.

[Galahad 0]

Hi all

You still have failed to tell me where in the Bible it even gives the hint that we can have an abortion and kill innocent babies

Why would it say in the bible?Back then,women had no right to speak for themselves,a patriarchal society.Not that I read the bible,but I don't think it mentions drugs anywhere in it.

I am sorry.  Let me clear this up.  It doesn't say, the onnocent.  I am saying that by the power given to the government to execure His wrath on the evil,

It says that in the Bible. I gave you the text. So I don't need to make a judgment.

I think the question here is, who makes the judgement who is innocent and who is not.If I understood you correctly,god gave them power to execute his will.Ok.What do we do about Hitler then?How many innocent people were killed,viciousely,by him?It would appear that god gave Hitler the power to do that,wouldn't it?Why didn't god,when he realised his mistake,act to rectify his mistake?And I don't buy those stories about god being unmistakeble.We are made in his image apparently.If we make mistakes,so can god.

Other thing

Without anger justice cannot be delivered.

Where there is anger,justice is anything but delivered.Judgment is clouded and obstructed,by that same anger.

You keep mentioning "executions" on the evil.Can you point evil people?Can you somehow sense them?Or am I evil to,for not believeing in god?Who says "you are evil","you are good","good","good","evil",and so on?And don't tell me god makes that choice.Who makes that choice HERE,in the world of the living.Do authorities have an 24/7 open line to god,to ask him who is good,and who is not?Or it goes something like this:Innocent person is executed on the electrical chair,and dies.And then god says "Ooops",and sends that person to heaven?Therefore "fixing" that mistake.

You have your arguments,we have ours.This is a neverending battle.But one fact stays: 90% of christians interpret bible in the best way they see fit at any given moment.Not as it was written,but just to suit their needs.

And for n-th time i say: it is womans decision wether she allows something to grow inside her,or not.Not mine,not yours,not that of her family.Only and noones but hers.

People should look their own business more,and let others make their own choices and decisions,be they good decisions,be they bad.And that person will stand before god,and he will judge them.You don't have anything to do with that,and therefore,god won't ask you to testify or be put to trial.

I understand everyones need to "do the right thing",but as you yourself said,we are just human,and we mistake.Think about it.

Whoever wrote the bible,wrote it well.Nothing specific is said,just some outlines,and every statement inthere, every verse,can be interpreted in several ways.Truly ingenious.

Cheers

[wild20 0]

What do we do with Hitler? Why of course he should have never been in government because he did not go in accordance with God's word and the Bible. That is what I am trying to say.

Now the Bible doesn't mention anything in theBible about saying whether abortion is right or wrong, but it does say THOU SHALT NOT KILL. But obviously there are murderers out there that need to be dealt with, this is where we come into the part where God said He has set the government to deliver His wrath on the people that are EVIL! I don't really want to have to explain that again unless you have further questions. The Bible may have not mentioned abortion, but let me broaden this. Can you find in the Bible where it says that we can kill innocent people, or even babies? Not a single place will you find this.

No one has to make the judgment on who is or is not innocent, but the Bible gives the outlines to show who and who isn't. But there are two innocent's we have to look at first.

The first, is the innocent from God. They are those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. They follow the ten commentments not because its legalistic, but because the Bible says,

If ye love Me, keep My Commandments.  John 14:15

Although they sin, they are washed clean with the blood of Christ.

Then we have the second innocent. Those who are not breaking mans law, living a clean life, and trying to respect laws and government. These two mixed together are best, but remember God's law first. This includes abortion. We cannot kill innocent people, at all. Those who are guilty of breaking ma's law are judged according to the governemts wish, as long as it is in accordance with the Bible, then we are okay, but when innocent people are preyed upon, then I have a problem. A Christian should not believe in abortion.

[xereo 0]

Definitively I think that NOT to the abortion, but I also think that it is VERY important that is helped the COUPLE to avoid it. And I emphasize in the couple because it is always given the woman the responsibility of deciding, when the man also has the right and the duty. They are not all the couples, not even most, in the world who you/they have the opportunity to avoid a not wanted pregnancy. Condone, birth-control pills, patch, cirujias, etc. is not within reach of all the couples. And every time is made but necessary because the world continues growing, being developed and the poor creatures are, in short of bills who pay the consequences of a moment of pleasure.They are too many babes them that they don't end up being born, but they are many but those that are rejected by their own parents after being born or for the society. Many of them are those that become criminals with the time, drug addicts, prostitutes, or simply people that don't adapt to the society, people sick sicologicamente. And of that, we all have the responsibility a little. Let us demand laws that avoid the abortion, but also laws that put birth-control methods within reach of the couples, and mainly, let us educate the youths with our example, let us teach him the necessary thing of being overcome, of getting ready for the future, so that the day that they face the great responsibility of the paternity they can make it with security and without fear.

[Galahad 0]

Hi allEveryone starts the arguement,that whoever wants the abortion,had to be more careful not to get pregnant.And what if a young girl,18 years or so,was raped,and got pregnant?What then?Should she be more careful?Should she stayed in her room,not leave her home?Or what if a mothers health is endangered?What if the only way to save the mother is to abort the baby?Mistake with people is that we all react emotionaly,rather than logicaly.I don't like the idea of "killing babies" any more than anyone else here.But for,let's say,"practical" reasons,abortion may be the only alternative.If for instance,mothers life was in danger,but the law prohibits her to have abortion,and mother dies,and the child dies at the birth,what then?No good came from that?Two people are dead.And one life could have been saved.Ofcourse I'm agains abortion in late months pf pregnancy,but in 1st trimester,abortion should be allowed.And ofcourse father should have a say in abortion,if he is present in mothers life.This may sound harsh and insensitive from me,but world is overpopulated.And allowing abortion in early months of pregnancy,is a way of birth control.Again,look at this from the logical point of view,not emotional.If we overpopulate the world,all natural resources will be depleted.Then what?All 6+ billion people will be famished,water will be poluted,not to mention air.And what good is that?Yes,you may say "it's not gonna happen in my lifetime,why should I care?",but then,you're not a very good person,are you?I'm not being insensitive ba*rd,I just try to look from different perspectives,before forming an oppinion about anything.Life shouldn't be observed so plainly,it's either black,or white.There are many shades of grey in between.And decisions and oppinions should be formed based on emotional AND logical response.Try to think like someone else.Keep that in mind.Cheers

[LeAnn Rimes My Angel 0]

People put names to things that are in their point of view wrong. Wrong is only a matter of opinion for everyone. Personally, I do not see anything wrong with abortion, nor do I see anything wrong with killing another human being. The less people there are on the earth, the better the world would be in my opinion. That is how I feel.

[wild20 0]

Xereo:You are right, we should try to put other methods of birth control besides killing babies within reach of couples. But I still am against abortion 100% for its means of destroying a life.Galahad:I don't care about emotional feelings. We're talking about moral decisions here. The world is hardly good, if at all. We think of the CONVENIENCE of abortion, more than moral right and wrong. You are right however, I previously said that all things are either black and white. But several life experiences have taught me that there are shades of gray mixed in at a few places. But I do still believe that the most important issues like abortion which involves the killing of babies. For a Christian, it should be clear in the mind that abortion is absolutely wrong. The Bible states killing as a sin and should not be done. Now, back in Bible times, God did guide people to act in war upon some people. I.e. How God led Israel in different wars. But do we get that guidance anymore? No, and therefore we know some things are wrong, such as killing.But back to abortion. I am unsure of the circumstances at which an abortion would be okay or not. For me, I always thought an abortion was wrong no matter what. But you bring up an interesting discussion point. What if the mother would die? I still think it shouldn't be considered. Why? Because there is always that chance of them both pulling through. See?Dark God:I am very, very suprised at your "opinion". You are suggesting taht we should kill people because there are too many of us now anyway? How would you feel if someone came to you and said you have to go. You don't benefit society enough to be worthy to stay on this earth? I know this is your opinion. But are you suggesting that we could go around killing everyone whenever we feel like it? Just wondering how your "grand idea" that come from your "feelings" would so benefit our life on earth. Lets just say appalled wouldn't cut it right now. As I said, I am against abortion. No one suggests how it benefits society to kill 100% innocent babies.

[iGuest 3]

I realize that this is an extremely old site.But I just stumbled on here while I was doing a school assignment. I think that people need to realize what they are really saying when they say "get rid of abortion".If your not a woman..then you have NO RIGHT to even TALK about it..yes the whole...'father has a right' thing comes into play there...but I don't really care...if you are a woman and have been in that situation then you realize what a huge deal it is to BE pregnant.if you are a 16 year old girl...that is your WHOLE LIFE. you don't get to just say, oh I don't want it any more. It is a life long commitment....so don't give me the whole 'get rid of it'...because you don't realize the situation these girls are in.

[jayzeed 0]

First off, pro-lifers, dont yell at me because i say this, but i think you are wrong. screaming and rioting because someone cant have a baby in their current state.

Abortion is a VERY personal / private matter. I dont think that any one should try to stop some one else from having an abortion. if i was pregnant, and couldnt afford or did not want a child i would abort the child, and probably give the stem cells for research. which is again, private.

People who think abortion is wrong, also have a valid point. You are taking away an innocent childs life away, and that is not right at the same time.
The following is from Gallup.com

"...The 2003 Gallup Youth Survey* found that while a majority of teens (aged 13 to 17) do find abortion acceptable, a full third (33%) believe that it should be illegal in all circumstances. Approximately one-fifth of teens support the legality of abortion under any circumstances (21%), while twice that number (45%) believe it should be legal only under certain circumstances."
"Abortion is frequently framed as a "women's issue," but Gallup data indicate that teen opinions on abortion do not vary significantly between girls and boys. Thirty-five percent of girls believe abortion should be illegal under any circumstances, while 32% of boys feel the same way. Twenty-three percent of boys believe abortion should be legal under any circumstances, compared to 19% of girls."

I am in the 23% who agrees it should be legal.

Southern teens in the US think it should be right by 12%.

Each side has a valid point, and i think it should be kept private.
thanks for reading, -

Oh, and "anti-abortionists" are called Pro-choice

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