Please do not take this topic as offensive, rather a pointer in the direction that will help you, the members of this forum and guests.
Xisto, as you may well know, is based on a more professional and formal tone than sister site Xisto. This professionalism should be shown through in-depth information, developed with highly accurate grammar and spelling. However, through looking at recent topics and posts from new contributors and existing ones, it would appear that this professionalism is being delimited, in ways that is having negative effects on the site as a whole.
Grammar, the Founding Stone of Good Communication.
In order to make sense of a language, you need rules. For programmers, and those with good general knowledge, these rules are known as syntax. If you put your words in the wrong order, or don’t apply the right connectives, then the whole meaning of your sentence can change unexpectedly, or ultimately mean nothing. In the likelihood it results in meaning nothing, your topic/post will be deleted, as something that means nothing is also known as useless, and therefore results in spam.
Additionally to your words having to gell together to make an understandable sentence, you also need to use COMMAS. I have seen many members in many forums, not using commas. They don’t mean, take a breath, but their nature of splitting sentences into usable segments is what gives the ‘breath-take’ effect. If you are unsure on how to use commas, then use Google to find articles. There should be hundreds, especially on Exam Revision sites.
The above is an example of someone that doesn’t use commas, or when they do, it is sparingly. Using commas helps people to understand better the context behind the words. Even if a sentence doesn’t make any sense really, the use of commas in the right places helps to get a slightly better hand on of what the author is conveying.
looks good barely can tell that one image is right on top of the other of course you could havn't shorten your time with a little blending and glaussian blur.
but have to say you did a nice cut of here image as well.
So please, when making a topic/post. Firstly check if you have it capitalised and also you have used the appropriate punctuation where it is needed.
Without good spelling practice, it eventually affects other aspects of your life. Especially if you are in Education, as it eventually spills onto your work. I for one noticed this problem, as I often write words like ‘they’ without the ‘y’ on the end. This, I believe is because of the use of deprecating my words when chatting to others, and not being bothered about it, as they ‘can figure it out’. Unfortunately, this liberty should not be extended to other areas online, like main documents within sites and also in discussion boards. It is appalling to see members typing in short-hand. Whilst it may be faster and more natural to write that way, one man’s l33t is another man’s mess. For me, to see things like “Hw r u?” anywhere near a discussion board is demeaning to the owners and the respectable members.
You should take your time when making a new topic/post to make sure that your spelling is accurate, or else you will find that many members start getting annoyed.
I understand that no-one is perfect, and obviously you can’t check your accuracy all of the time. But, if you take just a few seconds to proof-read your topic/post before sending it, then you will reduce confusion and annoyance.
I honestly don't think grammar or commas matter. Even at the slightest. Some language arts teachers are really strict about this nowadays. Most of them believe that if all the commas aren't in the right place, it means that your paper isn't very good. They don't care about voice, humor, or how moving it is. If you just add some long, flowery words, or if you're spelling is good, they'll think it's a good paper. That annoys me.
I have to admit, my spelling is far from flawless; as is my use of punctuation. This is mainly due to the fact that I am not a native speaker, and that in my native tongue, Dutch/Flemish, the punctuation is used differently than in English. To add to it, in most English courses, punctuation is hardly ever covered. At one point I even asked my English teacher about the correct use of the comma and semi-colon and he bluntly answered me that it doesn't matter since the topic wasn't covered in the course.If you ask me whether or not I agree with Twitch, my answer is simple. I agree wholeheartedly. I know how annoyed I can get when reading through a text where no punctuation is used, and I know how aggrivated I get when I am forced to read through the most atrocious spelling errors in my own native tongue.Now, I will hush because I don't wish to be hurt by Twitch for butchering HIS native language in this post. (Bear in mind, when I am very conscious of my spelling and grammar, I will most likely mess up more.)
Hehe - so do I wholeheartedly agree with twitch. Spelling and Grammar are not only two important aspects of any good writeup, but they essentially reflect how far you're willing to go to make yourself be understood. Leaving others to do a guesswork between what you wrote and what you meant - is NOT a good thing to do. Moreover, the use of punctuations - as twitch pointed out - isn't restricted to writing. The "breathing" and "voice-modulation" that one does during talking are the auditory counterparts of punctuations. While we easily grasp a lot from these pitch modulations during a conversation - don't forget we've the advantage of SEEING that person face-to-face on most occasions. We are at a big advantage here as we get to observe gestures and facial expressions - and subliminallu these contribute a lot towards our final understanding of the conversation. Same goes for Classroom teaching and Presentations.BUT - when we hand in inert articles to be reviewed, or in our case here, make posts, we've only got punctuations to back them up. Our posts cannot be heard, neither are they accompanied by the aforesaid expressions and gestures. Punctuations are our essential means of rendering those same expressions to an inert piece of text. Why do you think we've got the Exclamation !!! and Question ??? marks ? Do you think you'd really be able to tell the difference in most cases if our sentences weren't delimited with these ?Imagine a board-room presentation or a class teacher going on in a dull monotone for hours - without any pitch flunctuations or kinesthesis (body movements/gestures). How long will you remain interested in such a class/presentation and how much of the subject will you actually retain ? The same goes for articles without puncutations and proper formatting - they just turn into a dull, boring and most unintelligible piece - however well they might be written.
Well, first of all, I kinda agree with twitch. When I first came to Xisto, it wasn't that strikingly professional-looking. But hold on - I'm really busy right now so I will post some more later
So with what you are saying without grammar or punctuation this sentence makes sense although I have directed it in a questionable way as without the punctuation in place you end up getting a headache and reduces your chances of understanding what I am putting. A good site to see English at its worst is teenspot.com forum boards. Although the main site is respectable the forums have little to say about themselves because people are getting lazy no other explanation but lazy and why is this because time is restricted and the examiners in England are allowing American spellings and grammatical sentencing for GCSE work. The teachers complain but nothing is done about it.
I honestly don't think grammar or commas matter.
I failed English, but that's not an excuse for me.I know I make a few mistakes here and there, I also notice when other people do, just like in the post above that Shooting Star made, with using "you're" instead of "your" as well as a few grammatical errors but I am not going to complain unless it honestly makes no sense at all.The basis of any communication is that it gets understood. That's it, you could have so many spelling mistakes or grammatical errors, but if the message can still be interpretted correctly, then you've passed the communication test. People do find those little tidbits annoying, but it's a fact of life that people will make errors, the only thing you could do to improve that is to learn from your mistakes and never be negative when people do criticise you. Just look at it that they actually cared enough to point your errors out, and are trying to be helpful.Now the question is, why did I fail English?That's simple for me, I felt that we were not being taught English. Test me on my spelling and grammar and I'd pass, maybe not 100% but it'd be a pass none the less, test me on knowing why an author writes a book in a particular way, and to get inside his head and think like him, I'll fail, because I don't think like others and that's the whole idea of being considered unique. I'd feel if they like writing books, then that's a good enough reason why they would write it or else they would do something else I would think.I know I've liked computers since the age of 4, so that is why I am involved with computers now. I do have other interests other than computers, but if someone was to think why I chose a career in computers then the obvious answer is because I like working with computers. There might be other reasons why, that could have limited my choices, but if we are to think of all the probable outcomes, we'd be here forever, so that is why I failed English.You can still be successful none the less, don't ever let anything stand in your way.I apologise for any spelling and grammatical errors that may arise in this document. That is the work of tiny gremlins that come along and alter it so that nothing will be perfect.Cheers,MC
Grammar and spelling? Aha, most members of Xisto aren't English native speaker, right? I think that members just need to post in ways that everyone can understand easily. That's all we need, we have technical discussion here, not language learning.Do I make any mistake in this post???
I'm sorry if anyone mis-understood me. I did not mean to make my post seem thrashing, I just tend to go on long tangents.You are all right when you say that as long as people understand, then it is fine. I am just trying to point out that good (not 100%) grammar and spelling helps a lot when communicating.And I didn't mean it for people to learn English in order to make themselves understood. All I ask, is that you take your time and be appreciative of others reading your post. Some members seem to not take the time and due care to make sure they make sense.
The fact that Xisto's members come from all around the world makes us very much diverse. Some understand things differently in ways that one might consider good or bad. I personally hate the "hacker" jargon because i can barely make out what is being said at all. It is true though, however, that if you're an English speaker, the human mind will be able to interpret the exact word just by knowing the correct placement of the first and last letters of a word while having the middle-letters rearranged. For example:
I cnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. Thephaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde
Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the
olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit
pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a
porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by
istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh,and I awlyas tghuhot
slpeling was ipmorantt
Well, I agree, that sometimes it could be made much easier to understand a post if the author invested a minute more to correct his/her spelling and grammar. But I do believe, that for most people here, the reason is that they didn't get a lot of English education (I see that because some people who speak other languages that I know, still use "their" word order etc.). I like the international touch very much about Xisto and I wouldn't like those, who didn't get the best English education, to stay outside. Of course, we shouldn't become a Babeltower, but I think, a little bit more acceptance is appropriate.
The question remains: What should be done?
I mean, those who write bad English are punished hard enough by the fact that know one will understand them. Of course we could put up a little tutorial on how to assemble facts and maybe link some language resources, but I doubt that this would help.
My proposition would be to kindly remind writers of their mistakes and giving advice. Since writing more will be rewarded, I think that most of us would not mind the extra effort. This way the users here would not only learn more about programming but also get better at English, which sounds promising to me.
Maybe a little BB-Code for spelling remarks would be apropriate.
Lalala .. Blind text, actual reply to post
[spell]it's spelled "appropriate", ruben[/spell]
This way, spelling remarks could be easily skipped by native speakers, but those who are still learning would gain something.
What do you say?
I am a native english speaker. I live in a place where english is used commonly. I know, common American stereotype (especially from Britain) calls for Americans being really pointy. We even have our own lingo, saying "like" after every two words. But all that doesn't matter.
English is like an art. English is a written method of communication and allows us to put across what we mean, through the use of syntax.
I think it is perfect. If we could some how reproduce the note tag, but apply a few changes, like the colour and the actual message, then it would be perfect.
Maybe a little BB-Code for spelling remarks would be apropriate.For example:
Lalala .. Blind text, actual reply to post
[spell]it's spelled "appropriate", ruben[/spell]
This way, spelling remarks could be easily skipped by native speakers, but those who are still learning would gain something.
What do you say?
????[/tab]If you ask me to believe a native english speaker won't understand the word as simple as afore-mentioned - then one shouldn't claim to be a native english speaker in the first place. This doens't even fall into your so-called category of flowery language - although it's usually classified as decent english.
????Moreover - one prime aspect of our board - that most of you miss out on, is that we've explicitly stated in our TOS that we intend to build a rock-solid technical knowledge-base and for that we're seeking talented members. Our tag-line is Where Talent Fuels Hosting - and talent, whatever you may be endowed with, has to be expressed properly in order to be recognized as talent. If you are unable to express yourself in a clear-cut manner, then your talent will simply go unrecognized. Hence we stress so much on making posts here using full english sentences. Even our hosting is mostly given out to people who can at least summarize their thoughts in a logical progression and lay it out in a manner that is conducive to easy understanding by the masses.
????While this might seem like an elitist point of view to you - I'm sorry to say, that's how it IS. We're not interested to have our forums filled with thousands of lines of absolutely meaningless junk consisting of nothing but, hehe, haha, lol, like etc. Moreover, our board is primarily meant to cater to an English speaking audience - so bad english isn't really an excuse here.
[tab]As for the lighter side of life - there's always Xisto - where posting rules are far more relaxed - where you wouldn't face scorn about poor english. That is why people who feel a little strangled in here are always advised to go join Xisto. I should point out that this makes us loose a LOT of new members as well as in terms of post COUNT - but we're entirely happy with whatever we have. At least any newcomer trying to locate information on a particular topic can do so with extreme ease - as it has been pointed out earlier by many of our members.
Because that is the way the world works, and for me, by increasing your intellect with using a more varied vocabulary makes you a more rounded person, and less narrow-minded.
Oftentimes, people here believe that using hard works like aforementioned makes your paper "decent." Granted, this works in college essays but normal people won't understand it. Why can't we just say previously mentioned? And why are our sentences so long?
Errrm.. Ahhemmm...Did someone say that rules are strict over here and at Xisto the rules are relaxed!
As for the lighter side of life - there's always Xisto - where posting rules are far more relaxed - where you wouldn't face scorn about poor english.
Quite surprisingly, around five million people here can't read past the eighth grade level. Studies have shown that here. One thing I find that causes that is our traditional relay television watching. Television takes our attention off things. We're most likely doing something else. And also, people that represent themselves on TV are really ignorant, trying to assign blame to others. But nevertheless, english is our primary language. Not understanding "SAT words" still doesn't change that fact.
If you ask me to believe a native english speaker won't understand the word as simple as afore-mentioned - then one shouldn't claim to be a native english speaker in the first place.
Not really elitist. "L33t sp33k" would imply the annoying use of symbols and numbers and pretending you're better than everyone else. Plus, an elitist board is generally built up of hacker wannabes, which really isn't the case here. I don't see Xisto as elitest, rather just a little bit pretentious. Please don't take offense to this, I don't mean it that way. Grammar is important. People do look to that as a first impression in judging your work. I just meant that grammar shouldn't be the know-all-end-all concept of professionality. There should be more to that too.
While this might seem like an elitist point of view to you - I'm sorry to say, that's how it IS. We're not interested to have our forums filled with thousands of lines of absolutely meaningless junk consisting of nothing but, hehe, haha, lol, like etc.
I don't feel like an outcast here. I kind of like it at Xisto. But I don't think everything should be layed out as a gradual progression. Digressing is a tool that most professional writers will do. Most books do digress. They don't just choose a point and walk with it throughout the novel. Digression sometimes brings good points into a discussion. It takes things people can relate with and overall makes everything more memorable. In fact, the use of humor grasps a lot of attention by your audience. It's a great start to any sentient post. It leads your readers to your thoughts. It expands upon everything. And it can be easily done too. Humor occurs when you connect two unlike things that no one else can believe connectable. Also it might have some truth behind it. See how this article uses humor to make a thoughtful point:
As for the lighter side of life - there's always Xisto - where posting rules are far more relaxed - where you wouldn't face scorn about poor english. That is why people who feel a little strangled in here are always advised to go join Xisto.
about angry asian man:
well I for one can admit when it comes to writing or typing I suck at it. Hard to tell when to put this "," or this "." in the right spot of course I barely use ";" that I can't remember what its used for. To me if you give it the effort and take your time with it. then people will understand what you are saying.
I must admit that I haven't read this entire thread, but I shall post here anyways. I have to admit that, although I personally pride myself on proper grammer, I haven't always corrected my grammer or spelling when posting here. Although, contrary to other posts that I did read here before posting, grammer and spelling go a long way to properly explaining the proper way to correct a problem or explaining your point of view.
For those of you who's primary, or native first language, isn't English, I must comend you on your grasp of the language. I personally have grown up with American English as my native tongue and have studied others, to much disappointment and failure, and have found that next to the written versions some asian and middle eastern languages, English is one of the most twisted languages in the world.
Although I digress; to properly explain ones point of view, give directions on how to do something, or explain the more complicated intricacies of how to design a bit of code to do a automatic mailing of a form from a website proper grammer and spelling are a must. Without proper spelling and grammer trying to use an automated translator like the one that can be found at this LINK, supplied by google.com, will not work properly. Also trying to understand what one person means, while trying to figure out what they were trying to spell or say, can give one a headache as pointed out in another post already made here.
To close, please understand that while some may think that spelling and grammer might not be important; to others its not only professional but good manners.
So ends yet another rant by - Logan Deathbringer
Happy Holidays, one and all....
Well, digress as much as you want, fellows, but don't lose the main point:
Keeping Xisto a forum, that is worth to be read. I personally feel that especially tutorials, but also normal threads should be written in a manner, that invites others to research in these forums for information, find the threads and get answers.
This is not possible, if a thread deals mostly with kiddies expressing their amusement with lols and hehes. But on the other hand, certainly everyone agrees that we're still humans and should have a personal level too.
But since this topic should concentrate on the English language and it's proper use, I would like to get back to my recommendation:
Often I notice little spelling mistakes (not common typos, which I would ask everyone to remove by looking at one's text again before submittal) but I don't correct them because I don't want to get on people's nerves etc.
Another thing that occurs to me often is that people, who are too eager to get credits answer my questions without properly reading them. Because they are not so good at English, they don't get the whole point directly and tell me stuff I knew since birth.
It might seem like a too simple solution, but it is a first step, to assign BB-codes to these events, so that one could simply blast misunderstandings with a [misunderstanding] which ends up as "Please read my posting again, you have misunderstood me due to language problems. I ask you to look up words you don't know and try again" or something more polite.
Plus the spelling extension.. I would really like that, also for myself. At the moment I'm relying on Mac OS X integrated spell check, but since I write in German, Swedish and English simultaneously it is set to "Multilingual" and therefore doesn't notice some common mistakes. Others might not have a spell checker at all in their posts. I would really like to get better at English while using the forum. I disagree with all you saying that advanced language is only used to impress peasants, I think it contributes to beauty of writing and it makes it easier for us to read a text fluently (better language leads to better understanding if you don't suck at English and only know the basics).