Virginia Tech

[Thorned Rose 0]

Guns are not good or evil, wonderful or terrible. They're just tools. Like your computer (or mine, for that matter). Or a car. Or whatever other inanimate object you'd like to think about.

 

The person behind the gun should be the focus of attention here. The shooter at Virginia Tech was an evil, rage-filled scumbag who could not cope with reality. According to several TV news reports, he had shown warning signs for a while. One of his profs, for example, read some of his more violent essays and attempted to refer him (the student/shooter) to counseling. That of course didn't happen.

 

Had I walked into the gun shop and bought the exact handguns that the shooter bought, they would not have killed thirty-plus students. Had you bought the computer that I'm using right now, it would have a different MP3 collection on the hard drive. Point being, quite simply, that the person who uses the tool is the one who makes the choices of how to use it.

Yes, that is correct and also incorrect. You say they are tools and therefore it is the intent behind them that makes them dangerous. Well you are ignoring the fact that the sole intent of guns (hunting guns excluded obviously) is to maim and kill other people. My computer is intended to be used for playing games, or word processing, or surfing the internet or listen to mp3s as you pointed out. The same with cars - they are intended to get people from A to B. Neither my computer or car is intended to maim and kill. Yes, they could be used for that purpose but when was the last time you saw someone lugging a computer monitor around trying to injure and kill people with it? Intent is a very powerful thing. From a psychological point of view, it is much easier to kill with a gun because that is their intent and that is what humans associate with guns. We don't associate killing people with computers, cars, pot plants, bed linen etc so we feel less likely kill anyone with them. If you have a gun lying around handy, it is so much easier to make the jump from imagining killing someone to actually doing it.

I don't think I have explained the psychology particularly well but I hope you get the drift.

[Saint_Michael 3]

Thorned Rose you have to remember the USA was founded on violence and of course "Freedoms" such as to bear arms to defend yourself. However, thanks to technological advances in the last 230 years when it comes to guns, no matter who has one someone will have a more superior weapon. Thanks to people who made armor peircing bullets bullet proof vests, kevlar helmets are practically useless. The government won't get rid of the second amendment because that breaks the freedom/democracy a person in America already has. Don't forget the stricter the laws become then more and more people will be stealing weapons to be used to commit crimes so either way you put it either legal or illegal someone will get a gun as the become more enraged and desperate like this VT student was.You are correct that the sole purpose is to kill thats what they were made for everyone knows that, but you have to realize the streets are no longer safe anymore thanks to gangs and perverts who have nothing else better to do then hurt people. Also it's all about making a profit from the historic gun collector to the Head of the mafia, as long as people keep on buying them the gun companies will keep on making them.Their is a lot of blame that will be tossed around for incident from faculty to even the police because they knew this happen 2 hours before the the massacre that happen, but they chose to ignore it and looked what happen. Could it have been prevented? Maybe. Could their have been less casulties? Maybe. Could the shooter seek the help he really needed? OF course. These are questions people will be asking as the Major one of what went wrong is trying ot be answered. However the sad thing was he was a coward who didn't seek the help he needed, his teachers knew about it before and tried to help him but he refused and most likely his dark path to destruction start long before that. We won't know what went through his mind as he decided to kill people and when he actually was killing him people will only speculate as to why and from what information was know about this shooter.But to argue against you for a moment WM, some people did try and defend others, but you have to remember the shooter made sure no could get out so most likely he would have fired several shots into each person, and from what I heard he had quite a few clips and most likely emptied every one of them before taken the cowardly way out. Yeah it is true that someone can survive at close range but since he had several clips he most likely shot 3-4 at some of the victims and when he got close enough like with the teacher that sacraficed his life took one round. I highly doubt they will release the information about how many rounds went into a person or how long it took them to die and we don't need to know it anyways because its none of our business.However WM, Thorned Rose and Smack you have gone a bit over board from some of the posts I have read on this topic, insults personal or not don't need to be said like they have on this topic. We have our opinions but make sure to respect others regardless of where your from or how you were raised. You can express those opinions but like everyone else don't be targeting people like it has been shown in this topic.

[Android 0]

I've heard this story so many times, i'm just getting tired of it. Homicide, kills people, gets revenge, epidemic, blah blah.

[street 0]

I feel really sorry for the people who died and there families. Now i would like to know why there was never a police officer on the campus or something also why didnt the swat team storm in when they got the call? Also i heard on the news that they send out a email to everyone in the dorms and the police instead of calling the cops. Also to clear the first post up i believe that he was not looking for his girlfriend cause he never had one he was one of those kids that did not talk to any and was all to himself.

[Watermonkey 0]

But to argue against you for a moment WM, some people did try and defend others, but you have to remember the shooter made sure no could get out so most likely he would have fired several shots into each person, and from what I heard he had quite a few clips and most likely emptied every one of them before taken the cowardly way out. Yeah it is true that someone can survive at close range but since he had several clips he most likely shot 3-4 at some of the victims and when he got close enough like with the teacher that sacraficed his life took one round. I highly doubt they will release the information about how many rounds went into a person or how long it took them to die and we don't need to know it anyways because its none of our business.

Those are magazines, not clips. Anal, I know, but you know the difference, no point in perpetuating the myth. Also, I was going on the best information I had at the time. As far as I knew when I wrote that, they just stood there and waited their turn to die. I still know that a crowd acting with one determined purpose could've stopped him.

However WM, Thorned Rose and Smack you have gone a bit over board from some of the posts I have read on this topic, insults personal or not don't need to be said like they have on this topic. We have our opinions but make sure to respect others regardless of where your from or how you were raised. You can express those opinions but like everyone else don't be targeting people like it has been shown in this topic.

It's typically a heated debate, gun control, and sometimes things are said that aren't meant personally. I know I insulted TR and I believe I apologized. I'm sure the others didn't mean anything personal either, but generalizations will draw fire. A Texan who owns a firearm(s) should fear what England and AU has become, though... I wonder if you know, Smack, that in England you can spend many years behind bars just for defending your property and life from armed burglars... I hope you don't want to see that happen here in America.

[Smack 0]

Smack, that in England you can spend many years behind bars just for defending your property and life from armed burglars... I hope you don't want to see that happen here in America.

Lol! Where I live when someone walks into my house and I fear for my life I can give them a headshot and not get in any trouble. Haven't I told you before I live in Texas? Jeez I figured you would of knew about that new law.

 

Besides, although I think there should be tougher gun laws in America along the lines of those in Europe, I don't see it happening anytime soon.

 

Alright so now you can go to CNN and see the video this guy sent to NBC along with some pictures. 2 years ago a judge declared this man mentally ill. Seems the judge was right. Decide for yourself, listen to what he has to say.

Edited April 18, 2007 by Smack (see edit history)

[husker 0]

This was just a terrible tragedy. What is amazes me is here There has to be over 10,000 messages going out to the VT students in just one day. As sad as this was, it's terrific that the US is coming together. I don't think we should reflect back on this too much because we will just end up blaming ourselves. This whole event will be forgotten by those not directly involved in it in a few weeks. We will all move on, just like we did with Columbine. For now, my prayers and love goes out to those at VT.

[jlhaslip 4]

I don't think we should reflect back on this too much because we will just end up blaming ourselves.

On the other hand, reflection is the best way to determine the who or what to "blame". And make the required alterations to the "whatever needs changing", based on this reflecting period.

[csp4.0 1]

The police are just useless! Like the columbine massacre, the police were just standing there watch the windows explode, hearing screams, and what wre they doing? talking on the phone! radio! and they even say that they saved many lives LIARS! It was the students who saved themselves, and they even pointed their guns to an innocent student who was escaping! Useless police, they have bullet proof vests, so why don't they charge in and overwhelm the criminals!

[Smack 0]

On the other hand, reflection is the best way to determine the who or what to "blame". And make the required alterations to the "whatever needs changing", based on this reflecting period.

Yea, too true. All the warning signs were there. He was declared mentally ill, wrote stories about people that wanted to kill, was anti-social, talked of suicide, and even stalked people. His teachers suspected him as soon as they heard about what happened.

I wanna know why a mental-case was given guns. That's what was messed up. That's where we have to learn. I thought we had background checks? The only thing I can think of is, we need tougher gun laws.

[csp4.0 1]

Yes, anyone who is considred a 'loner' should be treated very nicely and should have friends, that way that person won't want to get revenge. Like the columbine shooting, a person wasn't killed because he was nice to the gunman, didn't you see the documentary?

[Smack 0]

Yes, anyone who is considred a 'loner' should be treated very nicely and should have friends, that way that person won't want to get revenge. Like the columbine shooting, a person wasn't killed because he was nice to the gunman, didn't you see the documentary?

Well this guy wasn't exactly like that. He was anti-social, meaning he didn't want any friends. Roommates said they were friendly to him and tried to talk to him, but he always backed away and kept to himself. The only people that seemed like they pushed him away were the two or so girls who he stalked - but they pushed him away for a good reason, what girl would be friends with her stalker? (intentionally that is.. unless she likes that kinda thing ) Oh and also the teacher who said she would resign if he wasn't removed from her class, though I doubt he knew about that. Edited April 19, 2007 by Smack (see edit history)

[Watermonkey 0]

Yea, too true. All the warning signs were there. He was declared mentally ill, wrote stories about people that wanted to kill, was anti-social, talked of suicide, and even stalked people. His teachers suspected him as soon as they heard about what happened.
I wanna know why a mental-case was given guns. That's what was messed up. That's where we have to learn. I thought we had background checks? The only thing I can think of is, we need tougher gun laws.

The serial numbers were filed off the guns. He didn't obtain them legally. No law would've prevented him from acquiring the firearms he used. Restrictions on guns only restrict those of us non-criminals from access. Criminals have much easier methods of obtaining them. Regarding your first statement: It's almost as though someone was watching and hoping he'd take out his vengeance. I wonder who would have the most to benifit from such a act... Look at the media... Do you hear the voices calling for everyone to register their firearms? Kinda reminds me of Jolly old England, Australia, Canada, the list is long... In every case, same M.O. Almost looks like the work of one blueprint... I wonder who gains from these events...

[Smack 0]

The serial numbers were filed off the guns. He didn't obtain them legally. No law would've prevented him from acquiring the firearms he used. Restrictions on guns only restrict those of us non-criminals from access. Criminals have much easier methods of obtaining them. Regarding your first statement: It's almost as though someone was watching and hoping he'd take out his vengeance. I wonder who would have the most to benifit from such a act... Look at the media... Do you hear the voices calling for everyone to register their firearms? Kinda reminds me of Jolly old England, Australia, Canada, the list is long... In every case, same M.O. Almost looks like the work of one blueprint... I wonder who gains from these events...

Oh, I kept hearing about the serials being scratched off on the news but didn't know what exactly that meant. I heard one telecast when they said he bought them legally, guess it was an earlier report, cause they said since you can only buy one firearm a month, he had bought one of the guns in early March and the other this month or something.

And you thinking that someone planned for this to happen - or wanted it to happen - is just a little paranoid, well a lot. It's the same M.O. because these types of things happen when everyone can own a firearm.

[Watermonkey 0]

Oh, I kept hearing about the serials being scratched off on the news but didn't know what exactly that meant. I heard one telecast when they said he bought them legally, guess it was an earlier report, cause they said since you can only buy one firearm a month, he had bought one of the guns in early March and the other this month or something.
And you thinking that someone planned for this to happen - or wanted it to happen - is just a little paranoid, well a lot. It's the same M.O. because these types of things happen when everyone can own a firearm.

I'll explain myself more clearly. Thanks for asking!

First point: According to eye witnesses, the following night at a local bar, apparently, police who were first responders at the scene were tying one on and expressing their complete outrage and fury at being told to stand down to wait for the feds. That's right. They were told to stand there behind trees and do nothing and two hours passed between the dorm shootings and the rest. They could've gone in and taken that dude no sweat and saved many lives. Instead they were forced to stand there and listen to the screams as this maniac killed one victim at a time, apparently by putting three or four slugs in each body before moving on.

Second point: I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the boys who shot up Columbine H.S. were on anti-depressants and according to the Chicago Tribune:

Investigators believe that Cho at some point had been taking medication for depression.

There are other points, anyone else who can think of strange, unusual, and seemingly random parts of this shocking tragedy as the story comes more clear, especially paying close attention to things said by those who were there, and not so much the media since they weren't there, let's hear them!