God

[Watermonkey 0]

Wow this is one huge Topic that has to due with a huge thing. Ok so lets say God does exist, where is he? Why does he not show himself!This is just one of the reasons why I do not believe in God!

I invite you to read my post above.

[irdix 0]

Wow this is one huge Topic that has to due with a huge thing. Ok so lets say God does exist, where is he? Why does he not show himself!This is just one of the reasons why I do not believe in God!

TypoMage you won't think that God will plug on His laptop and reply this post ?

you did...!? omg..

[alexviii 0]

Could one not put matter in the place of God in Aquinas' argument and still assume there is a first efficient cause? The theory that matter "is", is just as plausible as the theory that God "is".

Aquinas was not talking about a being that was the first, or the begeinning. He use that expretion: first efficient cause. so we are not talking about material or something. we talk about a cause, not same object (concrete or abstract) and the "cause" is not even in the time (as absolutly first - if future have no end that past had no end, so there should not be a begeinnig. so when we say first is not in the sens of time-). so actualy the word "cause" is refering to "some" (not something) that is the first "cause": and here the "cause" have the menning of reason: the first reason. that some that caused life to be.

in any case you are right: the theory that God "is", is just plausible. Try to ask to any beliving people, where he saw God. A real one whould answer "in my life".
don't think about God as a superior being that live some where in the univers and just created us.

Think about that "some" that is causing you to be.

PS: always conider that it is not material (ex: money is not God)

[Hadi 0]

[1]you know the answer "FOR A REASON" or "FOR THE BEST" is not good enough explanation. it's an answer most devouts would give me. that things are happening for a reason. for someone who's trying to find answers, that reply would make everything even more blurry than it was before.

Look I don't know everything ok, some questions just don't have answers and cannot be explained by Science, maybe when you die you can ask God for this reason. And just a small reminnder: Somethings happen for no reason.

[2]what?! he made humans to his own image and likeness, meaning they're initially good, and now he's trying to prove that they're bad? and he's trying to prove that to whom? to the devil/satan?

God proved that Satan made humans do bad thing, he made them good, but Satan pushed humans to do bad thing by faking things and turning them into good things in our eyes for example stealing is a bad thing, but sometimes people steal thinking that this will put end of their poverty, but in fact they will be more and more poor because they fell into the devi'ls trap wich is doing bad things and making problems between people to eventually make war.

[3]i thought science doesn't go well with religion? i thought scientific stuff doesn't match those of written in the bible? oh so by mentioning that, you're trying to disprove anything science has proven by saying that whatever science cannot explain, the religion can. that goes back to what i've mentioned way before.

Oh really why it doesn't?? I said earlier: Give something religion said and appeared false by science. Where are your answers? Plus I repeat what I said: Everything what religion said, was prooved later by science.

[4]hm... i though he created evil? and since many of you say that everything came from god or was created by god, it means even evil was created by him.

master-bcarra, excuse me but is there is something wrong with your brain? I already said that EVIL was created by God but in an indirect way. If you was given birth by your mother, so does that mean your mom created you? No, it means that God created you by your mother and father, That's the same thing for the angel turned into a deamon. Is that clear for you?
Maybe I am wrong but why I do have the feeling that you are typing things that I already talked about to get maybe credits. Just really ignore this, if it is false, then I am really sorry.

[5]um actually, lucifer, the fallen angel is not the same as satan. most people believe that they are the same, but it was just a reference.

I thought you don't know much about religion. Anyway, Satan was an angel, I am telling you this from evidence gathered from a certain number of books, if you want beleive it, if you don't then don't.

[6]what i've said was in plain english. you don't need to interpret it like to the deepest level in order to get my point.

I'll do my best. No comment.

[7]see what i mean? you're actually trying to point out that only his "path" is the best path, that by choosing other paths or options, you're already doomed for eternity (okay maybe that's a bit of exaggeration, but the point is there). by saying that, you're already agreeing that your god is a manipulative god, that whatever he says you'd follow without any hesitation.

God gave you a complicated brain so that you can think and choose the right road. God gave evidence fact everything we need to make sure that he exists, and he asking us to do extremely simple things like praying stay off the bad road etc... In exchange of a huge paradise that the best thing on earth cannot be compared to the best thing in heavan. Eventually, it's you who choose not God not Satan, but you.

[8]look, how many times do i have to say that this is not about trivial stuff? sure i can eat meat or fish or chicken, heck i can even eat oatmeal for breakfast. yes choosing what you eat for today might affect your overall appearance or health in the long run, but it's not connected to what we're talking about. that's not the point. what i'm trying to say here is that the decisions you make in life is the point of the argument, not the trivial stuff.

This sentance basically have no sense in my brainac simple english dictionnary. Make things even clearer.

9]the basis of "bad", "worse" and "worst" is also deeply rooted to what the religion tells us...or you. it's as if you're saying "by believing in my god, i'm in the right path, and you're not, so you're doomed". you believe what your religions says to you so by following it, you believe you're doing it the "right" way. what i'm trying to say is that i do not believe that his (your god) is the best option there is, that there are other good paths (or even better).

Master-bcarra, that is surely one of the paths is to beleive in God, wich I think is the most logic comprehensible path you can choose. I mean I found no lies in it, not a single when, I chose other roads but I kinda felt so attracted by this path.I will tell you a little experience, you may say it's a coincidence, but I don't think it is:
One day, after learning almost eveything about religion, and about other "paths", I wondered what's the path that I should take? I had a crazy idea. I made a deck of 1000 cards. Completely identical, and I wrote down the name of the paths that I can continue taking in my lifes like: Beleiving in God, Buddah, hindousium, atheist. And I just mixed all the crads very well. Then I said in my heart: If someone is there hearing me, please get close to me and lead me to the right path, so then I withdrawed a card of the 1000 one, to find that it had the word "God" on it. I was just frozed, adn didn't talk for an hour. I was thanking who led me in my heart. That day I sweared that I will beleive in God till eternity.

You may not beleive this, but in all the honor I have, all truth I said, this really happened. You may consider this a "coincidence" but I don't the probability is 1 to a 1000 card.
This is not the ONLY thing that led me to the path where I beleive in God. They are so many things others and so many feeling that no one can feel until you live the experience I had.
Edited February 19, 2007 by Hadi (see edit history)

[Hadi 0]

[10]no, you don't tell someone to have their dictionaries readjusted to whatever you say. who knows, one word to you might mean another to someone else. you don't tell them that what you believe is the right one. this one of the reasons why there are a lot of misunderstandings because some people do not respect other people's beliefs. they just stick to what they believe in and shun everything else out.

Well I know one thing, that everything can change but God he is always the same. Unless he desired to change.

[1&3]did you actually read the earlier conversation? i was wondering how were you able to conclude that it's a "creepy and ugly" creature that comes to you when you're dead? do you have any proof that it is CREEPY and UGLY? that's what i was trying to ask if it has a direct correlation between our conversation about god. i was also telling you that evil doesn't always show itself up as ugly, and that in order to attract its prey, it has to cloak itself to a beautiful creature. i think it's in the bible, the part where jesus was in the desert and suddenly satan transformed itself to a beautiful woman and tempted him (or something along those lines). i was just merely stating an example. you, in the other hand is trying to throw the question back to me.

Yes I have prooves, I read the book I told you about, it contains paragraphs from Torat Qu'auran, and said that this creepy creature will come to you when you die. And magically, some people that woke up after dying described this creatures exactely just like it was described in this book.

[2]again it's one of those stuff that "whatever science can't explain, religion can" thingy. but do you know that you can make your own dream? anyway, i'm just taking things on a lighter note, since i've been talking too serious for the past, oh i don't know, paragraphs maybe.

Answer the question in the first paragraph of this post. Religion prooved things before science so this sentance also have no sense. Holy books were sent to earth way before scientists can proove very basic thing.

what the... are you trying to make a fool out of me? i am starting to get offended here. i'm on a serious talk and the best you can say is "that didn't happened yet, but i'm definitely sure that it will happen"? i can't believe this...

Well, I see you didn't comment on the facts I gave, this thing you are pointing at was just a prediction of the many ones that were said in Holy Books, so that if it happens, and it will, you will be 99.9% convinced of God's existence, if that kinda make you lost I can edit my post and remove it.

Just one more thing, I am giving you prooves of God's existence, but why don't you give evidence that God doesn't exist, or that what is said by Holy Books, is wrong? Or atleast one fact that can stop me from beleiving in God?
I gave you facts that you didn't deny, give some that I can't deny.

[Yratorm, LightMage 0]

Notice from truefusion:

No need to call others names. Ever heard of, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all"?

Truefusion, ever heard of the saying "All that is needed for evil to triumph is that men of good will do nothing" - fanaticism is one of the evils of this planet - it is worse than other evils, because it is a good TURNED into evil. And it must be dealt with whenever we encounter it, or it will triumph, because it is so single-minded in it's intensity.

 

I'm not usually sarcastic - but here it was called for. I stand by what I've written there - it was the RIGHT thing to write, and so I WROTE it.

 

The warning is just fine by me. And if you were to execute me for saying what I had to say, I'd still say it if it was the right thing to do.

 

You want something else to warn me about? Here it is: I usually answer posts on the forum using logic, but Hadi's answers are so single-minded that he completely ignores logic/or doesn't understand it/ or doesn't know the language. Whatever the reason, he doesn't really answer those who argue with him, he just repeats himself (for all practical purposes) again and again. And I tell you here that I would never have entered into this discussion, because I saw what he was in his very first post. My post was put up more to express my ADMIRATION for Master Bacarra and Electriic Ink for actually trying to talk logic to one to whom logic means nothing.

 

I am not for or against a belief in god - there have been VERY sensible posts put up by believers, right on this thread. But I AM against fanaticism, and I will make a stand against it whenever I encounter it. And that is all. You may warn me again now.

 

___________________________

You want to see a REALLY insulting statement, here's one by Hadi:

Hadi: master-bcarra, excuse me but is there is something wrong with your brain?

Master Bacarra has a fine mind - there's nothing wrong with it.

 

Or, how about this one:

Hadi: Maybe I am wrong but why I do have the feeling that you are typing things that I already talked about to get maybe credits.

Anyone who knows Master Bacarra knows that that accusation is completely untrue. Master Bacarra is just not that kind of person. On the contrary, it is Hadi who is repeating himself, and Master Bacarra who is showing great patience in his answers. Electriic Ink, I notice, has wisely abandoned the discussion, and so do I. As a matter of fact, had you not warned me, truefusion, the post I made in support of Master Bacarra and Eletriic Ink would have been the only one I would have put up here. I will not speak to Hadi directly, his mind is closed to what others have to say.
Edited February 20, 2007 by Yratorm, LightMage (see edit history)

[master_bacarra 0]

[1]maybe when you die you can ask God for this reason.
[2]God proved that Satan made humans do bad thing

[3]Oh really why it doesn't?? I said earlier: Give something religion said and appeared false by science. Where are your answers? Plus I repeat what I said: Everything what religion said, was prooved later by science.

[1]whoa! that caught me off guard. i hope you're not cursing me or anything of some sort.

[2]uh... that wasn't what you said before. i remember you saying that "he's trying to prove that humans can do good and bad things", now you're saying that he's proving that it's satan who is making humans do bad things. anyway, the point is why does he need to prove anything when he made humans in his image and likeness? if they're initially good, why the need to prove that they're bad? or rather, why the need to prove?

[3]well there's the evolution of man. religion doesn't accept the idea that man's ancestors were the chimps, that as time passed by they eventually evolved to what humans are now. of course i want to mention the age-old debate of the creation of the universe, but the problem lies to it being a theory.

the reason why i said that religion and science doesn't mix well is because of its contradicting beliefs. science didn't prove anything religion had said, science merely states that what religion has concluded or stated can be proven using concrete evidence and not just by stating "man was created from a molded piece of soil".

master-bcarra, excuse me but is there is something wrong with your brain? I already said that EVIL was created by God but in an indirect way. If you was given birth by your mother, so does that mean your mom created you? No, it means that God created you by your mother and father, That's the same thing for the angel turned into a deamon.

my brain is perfectly fine, thank you very much. if you read my post well, which i assume you did, i was referring to the thread about the creation of the universe (god vs. big bang theory, you know... the religion vs. science thingy), that since the big bang theory isn't able to explain where that "something" came from before it exploded, that it was created by god himself. and since god made everything, i assumed that even evil was created by him.
i believe i can correct myself of whatever stuff i say here and i believe that my assumption is wrong. your analogy amazes the heck out of me, but anyway, that's besides the point. he didn't create evil, evil manifested itself in the form of lucifer. so i was wrong to say he created evil, and you saying that he created evil indirectly.

why I do have the feeling that you are typing things that I already talked about to get maybe credits.

ouch. that really hurts. i am here doing my best to reply to your posts with all my power and here you are acusing me of such stuff... that hurts big time. well credits may matter, but i've been in this board for more than a year now, and the need for credits is just secondary in my list. i've noticed the trend among the newbies who are in great need of free hosting, that the fast way in getting them is either replying to threads and posting a new thread (without checking if there have been duplicates already), the latter being the more sensible reason. and you can see the "need" because they post in rapid succession then instantly get send a request for free hosting account. of course i don't deny this because when i started here, that's what i did... or at least part of it.
when i log in to the board, the first thing i go to is the shoutbox. i check if there are people i can talk to and when i don't find some, i end up going to somewhere else over the net (wherever that is, that's none of anybody's business ). frankly speaking i rarely can't find interesting posts/threads to reply to these days (or posts/threads that get my attention), and if i did find one, it's either some this' and that's or i'm just posting for the sake of posting. that's why i'm thanking you for putting up a great reply, something that i am starting to get fond of you don't need to say sorry really.

[1]I thought you don't know much about religion.
[2]God gave you a complicated brain so that you can think and choose the right road.

[3]God gave evidence fact everything we need to make sure that he exists, and he asking us to do extremely simple things like praying stay off the bad road etc...

[4]This sentance basically have no sense in my brainac simple english dictionnary. Make things even clearer.

[1]dude, i never mentioned in any of the threads, this in particular, that i don't know anything about any religion. what makes you assume that? just because i am on a different side than yours or truefusion's, doesn't mean i don't know anything about it. sure, i could shun them all out, but that won't help me at all in finding which path i believe is the best. religion is part of whichever society we belong to, it shapes the people and thus shaping it's history. we study history in order to know how society was like in the past and how it could have an effect in the present date.

[2]since you're a believer, i'm assuming that you believe in the creation of man as stated in the bible, and if you did, that statement of yours really doesn't match your beliefs. god created man in his image and likeness, yet he didn't want man to have knowledge (thus he told them not to eat the forbidden fruit), because he believed that with knowledge, man would turn against him. in that sense when knowledge is acquired, man is able to choose which path to take, a path that is different from what is presented by god. which would only say that what you have stated above supports what i've said about me finding a "better path/option" than what he(god) has presented.

[3]actually, praying, which is part of a devout's rituals, is a difficult thing to do. yes it is simple in a sense that you're just reading a bunch of words out loud. it is difficult because you "put your soul" and basically every essence of you in the prayer. it signifies that you believe in the greater power that you are addressing the prayer to. remember the term called "faith"?

[4]is that so? it's written in plain english. i wonder why you don't think it doesn't have any sense... unless you didn't understand what i said.

Master-bcarra, that is surely one of the paths is to beleive in God, wich I think is the most logic comprehensible path you can choose. I mean I found no lies in it, not a single when, I chose other roads but I kinda felt so attracted by this path.I will tell you a little experience, you may say it's a coincidence, but I don't think it is:
One day, after learning almost eveything about religion, and about other "paths", I wondered what's the path that I should take? I had a crazy idea. I made a deck of 1000 cards. Completely identical, and I wrote down the name of the paths that I can continue taking in my lifes like: Beleiving in God, Buddah, hindousium, atheist. And I just mixed all the crads very well. Then I said in my heart: If someone is there hearing me, please get close to me and lead me to the right path, so then I withdrawed a card of the 1000 one, to find that it had the word "God" on it. I was just frozed, adn didn't talk for an hour. I was thanking who led me in my heart. That day I sweared that I will beleive in God till eternity.

You may not beleive this, but in all the honor I have, all truth I said, this really happened. You may consider this a "coincidence" but I don't the probability is 1 to a 1000 card.
This is not the ONLY thing that led me to the path where I beleive in God. They are so many things others and so many feeling that no one can feel until you live the experience I had.

this is one of the reasons why i enjoy writing a reply to your post. i mean, really... it's like enjoying a morning cup of hot drink while reading the paper, then suddenly i spurt out every drop of liquid in my mouth. you're such a jest.

seriously, i have never heard of someone who used cards to choose whatever path they want in life. although i was just wondering, would you freeze like what had happened to you if, let's say, the card you picked was "atheism". certainly you wouldn't have reacted the same way. would you have switched sides if that were to happen? you only froze because you were initially on "god's side", that getting a card that has "god" on it reaffirms your choice, thus the reaction

okay, i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt (although i seriously don't want to), and let's say it was god who "let you choose" that card. isn't that so not like him? i mean i believe there are statements like "god is just" and "god is impartial", so by saying that he "let" you choose that, he's already taking sides, and to whom, to a single person like you?

i have never seen anyone who had the luxury of buying 20 decks and writing down every religion (or probably some unkown creature there is) on every single card. i would probably give up on just half a deck. i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were able to do all these stuff and have the luxury of time and money, for the sole purpose of allowing you to prove to me what you mean. moreover, by giving you the benefit of the doubt, i'm saving you from going to the depths of hell (as the cliche goes, liars go to hell), for any sane person would not believe such far-fetched story.

Well, I see you didn't comment on the facts I gave, this thing you are pointing at was just a prediction of the many ones that were said in Holy Books, so that if it happens, and it will, you will be 99.9% convinced of God's existence, if that kinda make you lost I can edit my post and remove it.

i need not comment on it because it doesn't sound so true. it sounded so superficial. and the last statement you gave, the one that says

"God said that a huge mountain of gold will appear in the Furat river in Iraq, and people will make wars to get their hands on it, that didn't happened yet, but I'm definitely sure that it will happen."

got me offended, because it's as if you're trying to make a fool out of me for saying that. giving out a bunch of "proofs" then ending it with a proof that "didn't happen yet" and proudly assuring that "it will happen" just because the previous proofs had happened already.

Just one more thing, I am giving you prooves of God's existence, but why don't you give evidence that God doesn't exist, or that what is said by Holy Books, is wrong? Or atleast one fact that can stop me from beleiving in God?I gave you facts that you didn't deny, give some that I can't deny.

your proofs isn't convincing enough. all the proofs you've stated aren't believable, i'm starting to doubt you're even capable of providing me with a real proof.

and one more thing, i am not doing this to sway you, or truefusion or any member for that matter, out of your beliefs and your religion. and you merely challenging me of providing proof so i could sway you to my side or to other religions' side sounded like an insult.
Edited February 20, 2007 by master_bacarra (see edit history)

[KingKobraKilla 0]

I believe in god strongly but hey if you dont believe in him its up to you noone is gonna change your mind ya no

[Hadi 0]

[2]uh... that wasn't what you said before. i remember you saying that "he's trying to prove that humans can do good and bad things", now you're saying that he's proving that it's satan who is making humans do bad things. anyway, the point is why does he need to prove anything when he made humans in his image and likeness? if they're initially good, why the need to prove that they're bad? or rather, why the need to prove?

Truth can't be known by only one person, it is divided into small sections that everyone carry one part of it and yet some parts are still missing to know the exact truth. So what I say is not 100% true, because nothing we say is 100% but it cold be 99.9%.
God proved this to make people see that some will go to heavan and others to hell. But we are eventually human, and can do good and bad things. But God created us good but Satan put this small bit of evil that will grow every time we do bad things, so now it became a huge bit full of hate destruction revenge....

[3]well there's the evolution of man. religion doesn't accept the idea that man's ancestors were the chimps, that as time passed by they eventually evolved to what humans are now. of course i want to mention the age-old debate of the creation of the universe, but the problem lies to it being a theory.
the reason why i said that religion and science doesn't mix well is because of its contradicting beliefs. science didn't prove anything religion had said, science merely states that what religion has concluded or stated can be proven using concrete evidence and not just by stating "man was created from a molded piece of soil".

Hey hey hey, humans aren't Chimps. Even if some crazy guy said it or prove it. I mean even if they look like us, but they have different behaviors. If they are our ancestors so why didn't they mature to be something similar to us now?!
I told you about the paragraph in holy books about the earth and how does volcanos and earthquakes happen don't you consider that something that religion said and proved later by science? I am happy to give you more.

my brain is perfectly fine, thank you very much. if you read my post well, which i assume you did, i was referring to the thread about the creation of the universe (god vs. big bang theory, you know... the religion vs. science thingy), that since the big bang theory isn't able to explain where that "something" came from before it exploded, that it was created by god himself. and since god made everything, i assumed that even evil was created by him.
i believe i can correct myself of whatever stuff i say here and i believe that my assumption is wrong. your analogy amazes the heck out of me, but anyway, that's besides the point. he didn't create evil, evil manifested itself in the form of lucifer. so i was wrong to say he created evil, and you saying that he created evil indirectly.

Basically you added nothing new.

[3]actually, praying, which is part of a devout's rituals, is a difficult thing to do. yes it is simple in a sense that you're just reading a bunch of words out loud. it is difficult because you "put your soul" and basically every essence of you in the prayer. it signifies that you believe in the greater power that you are addressing the prayer to. remember the term called "faith"?

It may be difficult for you, but for me, it's very "easy", I mean I can communicate with God and feel his existence. Do you know why? Because I'm sured that God exists before beleiving in him. I had not even a particule of my body that doesn't beleive in God. So you must first go to the deepest part in religion, and you mustn't pay atteneion to all what religious human says, but you must Read, analyse, put logic between sentances... Plus who said beleiving in God is easy? But this project really deserved every single second I spent it with.

this is one of the reasons why i enjoy writing a reply to your post. i mean, really... it's like enjoying a morning cup of hot drink while reading the paper, then suddenly i spurt out every drop of liquid in my mouth. you're such a jest.
seriously, i have never heard of someone who used cards to choose whatever path they want in life. although i was just wondering, would you freeze like what had happened to you if, let's say, the card you picked was "atheism". certainly you wouldn't have reacted the same way. would you have switched sides if that were to happen? you only froze because you were initially on "god's side", that getting a card that has "god" on it reaffirms your choice, thus the reaction

okay, i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt (although i seriously don't want to), and let's say it was god who "let you choose" that card. isn't that so not like him? i mean i believe there are statements like "god is just" and "god is impartial", so by saying that he "let" you choose that, he's already taking sides, and to whom, to a single person like you?

i have never seen anyone who had the luxury of buying 20 decks and writing down every religion (or probably some unkown creature there is) on every single card. i would probably give up on just half a deck. i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were able to do all these stuff and have the luxury of time and money, for the sole purpose of allowing you to prove to me what you mean. moreover, by giving you the benefit of the doubt, i'm saving you from going to the depths of hell (as the cliche goes, liars go to hell), for any sane person would not believe such far-fetched story.

Do you read what I write? I said this isn't the ONLY thing that made me beleive in God, but that's the thing I can write it down. Plus you didn't have the feeling, when I chose this card, you may think it is silly and stupid, but I wish in all my heart that you feel this feeling. I honestely hadn't feelef something like it.
No, I wasn't initially on God's Side, I frozed because after I learned almost everything about religion, I was attracted by God's path, so I had this idea, that you can call it stupid.
Can you please forget it. Because I shouldn't have posted this experience, I should keep personnal stuff personnal.

got me offended, because it's as if you're trying to make a fool out of me for saying that. giving out a bunch of "proofs" then ending it with a proof that "didn't happen yet" and proudly assuring that "it will happen" just because the previous proofs had happened already.

Look I said ignore this, ok. It's just something I read, and it's just to add to your information. If you want beleive it, you don't want then don't. Why are you so, I don't the word but keep it easy on me. I mean why did I iffend you by saying something like that? Is that a crime? Why I am making you a fool? Plus it's not me who said it.

your proofs isn't convincing enough. all the proofs you've stated aren't believable, i'm starting to doubt you're even capable of providing me with a real proof.
and one more thing, i am not doing this to sway you, or truefusion or any member for that matter, out of your beliefs and your religion. and you merely challenging me of providing proof so i could sway you to my side or to other religions' side sounded like an insult.

Why aren't they convincing, do you think I am inventing this in my head?
You're the one who said I need prooves, you are the one who is asking, and I am just responding, if you consider these as "insults" I can just go away, I can do plenty of other things more fun, instead of sitting here, and typing for hours to convince you of something you don't want to beleive in.
Plus, do you think I earn cash or hosting credits, I can reassure you that I am not hosted. And I am not earning money, if you don't like my posts, I can just leave this topic and forget that I even posted in it.
How can I proove you that these prooves are prooven?!
You have doubt, so why are you replying anyway?!

[master_bacarra 0]

Hey hey hey, humans aren't Chimps. Even if some crazy guy said it or prove it. I mean even if they look like us, but they have different behaviors. If they are our ancestors so why didn't they mature to be something similar to us now?!I told you about the paragraph in holy books about the earth and how does volcanos and earthquakes happen don't you consider that something that religion said and proved later by science? I am happy to give you more.

let me clarify that, chimps aren't our ancestors, but their ancestors are the same ancestors as humans, meaning they came from the same brach of species. that would make them our distant relative.

first you want me to give you something science has proven, then when i present you one, you deny it like "some crazy guy said it". you want me to give out some examples then you shun me out and say "talk to the hand". it's like talking to a brick wall. what kind of reasoning is that?

Basically you added nothing new.

it's either you didn't understand what i said or you purposely ignored the entire thing. if you read it properly, i corrected what i said before and added something new.

It may be difficult for you, but for me, it's very "easy", I mean I can communicate with God and feel his existence. Do you know why? Because I'm sured that God exists before beleiving in him. I had not even a particule of my body that doesn't beleive in God.

uh i never said that i was having difficulty. why would doing something be difficult for me, if i don't do it in the first place? i was referring to the prayer and every sense of it being a ritual. you devote yourself and your entire being to it so you could "contact" god.
you know you sound so judgmental on that statement. it's as if you're mocking someone who "is having a difficulty praying" because you happen to be so devoted compared to others that it's just simple to you to do such stuff.

as in any other ritual, praying requires deep concentration since you're focusing on "sending out" your message to god. you are using your soul to get that "connection". that is why i referred to it as "difficult". if by all means you think it's easy, then fine with me. i was just merely stating the sense of the ritual itself, and not it's connection to your devotedness to god.

Do you read what I write? I said this isn't the ONLY thing that made me beleive in God, but that's the thing I can write it down.

of course i read everything you said. i don't want to miss every detail of it.
you make an example that is so out of this world and expect me to believe it? you state it that it was your way of determining your path. other people won't get easily swayed by such stories. i could say that it's sheer luck, but since you used 1000 cards, you're trying to prove that "something even greater than luck" is behind all of it.

in reality, yes you can have 1000 cards, that's why i said "if you have the luxury of time and money to do such stuff". shuffling a deck would probably take a few seconds with a pro, and shuffling 20 decks would take them a few minutes. shuffling them altogether, however would take more time. i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you honestly didn't know which names are written on which cards, so as you can try to prove what you are saying.

but based on the stuff you have been saying even before, i basically have not trusted you yet, or should i say i don't trust you at all (for the sake of being frank), so why are you giving out examples that make me doubt you even more? you're supposed to develop some kind of connection to the one you're talking to (or at least to the one you're trying to prove your statements to), but you already destroyed that connection even before building one.

[1]Plus you didn't have the feeling, when I chose this card, you may think it is silly and stupid, but I wish in all my heart that you feel this feeling. I honestely hadn't feelef something like it.
[2]No, I wasn't initially on God's Side, I frozed because after I learned almost everything about religion, I was attracted by God's path, so I had this idea, that you can call it stupid.

[3]Look I said ignore this, ok. It's just something I read, and it's just to add to your information. If you want beleive it, you don't want then don't. Why are you so, I don't the word but keep it easy on me. I mean why did I iffend you by saying something like that? Is that a crime? Why I am making you a fool? Plus it's not me who said it.

[4]Why aren't they convincing, do you think I am inventing this in my head?
You're the one who said I need prooves, you are the one who is asking, and I am just responding, if you consider these as "insults" I can just go away, I can do plenty of other things more fun, instead of sitting here, and typing for hours to convince you of something you don't want to beleive in.

[5]Plus, do you think I earn cash or hosting credits, I can reassure you that I am not hosted. And I am not earning money, if you don't like my posts, I can just leave this topic and forget that I even posted in it.

[6]How can I proove you that these prooves are prooven?!

[7]You have doubt, so why are you replying anyway?!

[1]of course i don't have that feeling. you're saying only people who have experienced such stuff would understand, but since your example was so amazingly complicated and out of this world, i don't know if people would understand that feeling at all...

[2]so you didn't answer my question. would you have felt the same thing if the card you got was, let's say, atheism or paganism?

[3]this is a serious talk and whether it was meant to take light of the situation, it doesn't help at all. it's as if you're trying to mock me by presenting something that doesn't prove the existence.

[4]they are so out of this world, that i don't know if you're telling the truth or not. i asked you because i thought you can present some better proofs out there, but i guess i only ended up disappointing myself for doing that. you have to know that there are people out there (or in this forum) that have various ideologies, and frankly speaking they have in their right minds know what is fact and what is not. you just don't blurt out something like a slip of the tongue, and expect people to believe it without explaining it properly.

[5]so you're turning the tables now? i didn't even say that your just posting things for fun or for credits. you were the one who accused me of that, remember?

[6]present a more realistic example backed up with references or verses from the bible that explains it further. i think truefusion was able to do that. like what i said, you just don't throw stuff like you're some trigger-happy fellow.

[7]i am not just replying for the sake of replying or making fun of you whatsoever. i am replying to defend what i've said and what i think of the topic. moreover, i want clarifications that's why i post my reply.

[masugidsk8r 0]

Wow this is one huge Topic that has to due with a huge thing. Ok so lets say God does exist, where is he? Why does he not show himself!This is just one of the reasons why I do not believe in God!

Did you know that God did show himself? He came down from heaven as Jesus the Son of God. If you were looking for the God the Father, he's all around you. If you can, you can feel him all around you. He's everywhere, he is not human.

Jesus is God you must take that into account. God is in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the holy Spirit.




I have a question: How do you talk to an ant if you're a human?
My answer: You just can't because you don't speak the same language.

Conclusion: That is why Jesus came so that he can talk to us in the same language.

[Johnny 1]

I'm not sure if I believe in Him, per se, but regardless of if He does or doesn't exist, He should know everything I do and think, I don't hold anything back.He can do with me what he wants.

[Kubi 0]

Whenever there's a dicussion about god, heaven, hell, the devil. Religion, politics, all that crap, it because very heated. No one agree's with eachother, and they seem to "express" themselves in a very "threatened" manner. That's not how debates are supposed to be. It's not supposed to be "You're right, I'm wrong, read this". Give your opinions, and let others give theres. You don't need to "bash", or say bad things about other people because you don't like what they say.Lightmage - there's no need to get mad at fusion. You DID insult another member, he's following rules. The warning was just. Like you feel your reasoning is just. Both are. There's no need to drag on the fight. Espesially between 2 moderators. Nu uh.Lets try and keep this discussion on the more "cool' side. Ok? Or, you can just fight via PM. I don't care if you do it over PM.

[Misanthrope 0]

Whenever there's a dicussion about god, heaven, hell, the devil. Religion, politics, all that crap, it because very heated. No one agree's with eachother, and they seem to "express" themselves in a very "threatened" manner. That's not how debates are supposed to be.

Excellent points, KuBi. As young as you are, you often surprise me with your level of maturity. Anyway, in addition to your well rounded list of subjects: heaven, hell and such, I might also add the subjects of Vegetarianism and Veganism, as I've noticed folks occasionally come unglued when these two topics are raised as well. It seems to threaten some in unspeakable ways I've never imagined possible....until now. Provocative as topics like religion and the like can be, this topic was started in the Debate forum, so a certain amount of heated exchange shouldnt be too surprising, nor discouraged in my humble opinion.

For Yratorm came down from his mountain and he sayeth.

Heeheeeeeethats some good stuff there. Maybe that's because it sounds an awful lot like something I wrote for my website. Wait a minute .. the Enlightened Misanthrope does not take kindly to being imitated. At any rate, I enjoyed the intelligent (and humorous) use of satire as it appeals to the higher faculties of good humor and forces the reader to think. Now, I know thinking has become a bit of a lost art form in our current culture of mediocrity, but its one well worth reviving for all our sakes. We should be applauding, not admonishing those who have the ware withal to convey information in such entertaining and enlightening ways. And really, a little levity thrown in to the mix is a very healthy thing. People are more likely to visit and stick around at the Trap if they are entertained, as well as educated.
On the subject of God, I have to admit I'm still stuck at square one, despite a lifetime pouring over books on a myriad of metaphysical topics. Every time I think I've stumbled upon THE answer, I either hit a roadblock or find conflicting evidence that sends me scurrying in the opposite direction in that eternal quest for the truth. It seems the more I think I know, the more I realize I don't know didley. Perhaps that would make me an agnostic? Nah - the jury's still out on that one too. I can't provide any conclusive answers on this, and I wouldn't pretend to know all there is about the unknowable anyway. But I do think the more time we put in trying to know God, the more chance we have of becoming godlike ourselves...if that makes any sense. Looking for some meaning in life sure beats the heck out of watching football.

I wanted to revisit this post an ad the following: I DO believe in God. It simply makes no sense to believe otherwise (does that make me a fanatic? Oh no - there's that stifling, freedom-smothering word again). As Spring unfolds her bounty, I am at once in awe of the majesty and wonder before me, and I realize it can't be the result of some random act or anything man, in his limited knowledge, can even begin to fathom. Einstein, at the end of his illustrious career, had to admit as much. If God is good enough for Einstein, he's certainly good enough for the likes of me. 'Nuff said.
Edited March 14, 2007 by Misanthrope (see edit history)

[Watermonkey 0]

For Yratorm came down from his mountain and he sayeth....

...which mountain might that be, or are we to believe you're coming down from the Himalayas just to post on this pathetic thread?

 

No need to hijack someone else’s writing style to get your point across either, Litemage. Kind of hard not to notice you’ve been writing more and more like vbritton/Misanthrope ever since she came on board. What's up with that? Come up with you're own creative writing style, and you'll get more of that respect you so desperately crave. I, personally, am finding it difficult to find any credibility with you these days. In my opinion, if you start out this relationship (being a personality -especially a moderator- on a forum) built on a dubious foundation, then what are we to believe? Your credibility is shot with me.

 

KuBi is right to chastise you in his above post. Your diatribe about fanaticism comes across almost fanatical in itself and leads me to think you're trying, without much success, to approach this topic from a higher ground of moral superiority. I think perhaps, if you're really on higher ground (looks more like about sea-level to me), then perhaps the thin air is causing you to experience illusions of grandeur or, worse...

 

 

To most people, religion is as intimate a topic of conversation as they could have. A lifetime of religious indoctrination and threats of fire and brimstone from preachers and ancient manuscripts enslave the parishioners into a life of service to the church. When a person sees their parents so invested in a philosophy that they'd defend it with their very lives sometimes, that person takes hold of it and embraces it for himself. An enormous investment of time, money, and emotion, the very fabric of the lives of some people is woven with fear of God and people's entire lives would crumble before them if that thread were to become unwound. And therein lies the answer to the whole debate about government disclosure of UFOs. There's no way the existence of ETs on Earth could ever be disclosed by official sources due to the shear amount of violence that would ensue. Imagine if all the sheep were to find out they could make it better without a shepherd then they were with the shepherd around? What if all the sheep found out there weren't really sheep after all? Then their care-takers (and life-takers) wouldn't have any power left and there would be a veritable age of enlightenment (don't steal that litemage!) (after the fanatics killed each other, that is!).

Edited March 6, 2007 by Watermonkey (see edit history)