Church Tries To Control God? 3rd secret out

[wild20 0]

The point is Server, to take the Bible literally. Kasm. Ah, you joined. this will get interesting. Let me show you a few things here my friend. You don't need Priests for confession. where in the Bible does it back it up? It doesn't. You don't need a priest. A Priest is the same a Pastor. They are needed for Baptism, and marriage, and to give some advice and spritual guidance along your way, but nothing more. They are ministers of God. Not needed to spill you life sin out to and confess.

The dead is a very interesting issue. People have twisted it up to the breaking point. You gave a common verse. Let me show you something. It says,

I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.Now watch this.
I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.

If you read through Matthew, you will find Christ often say: "I say to you today". See that. It appears to be a spelling error. Remember that the Bible was translated many times. If nothing else, because it is circumstansial, it should at least be omitted from the discussion for the double possibility. Either one is possible. Never the less, it is possible that Christ chose to bring him as Enoch was brang, straight to God. But that doesn't mean that all are in heaven instantly. If you read, it syas that the dead know not anything. Meaning they are dead, and that they pass away, they don't come back, only Christ can do that. Concerning the verse with God the god of the living, He can't very well be the God of the dead, that is the devil. Why you put that, I don't know.

I know, a tough subject. But the evidence isn't plentful for the fact that poeple say that you go to heaven right away. As a matter a fact, it is opposite so. There is more scripture against it. Would you like to see it?

[serverph 0]

The point is Server, to take the Bible literally.

 

really now? even if inspired by God (as religious insist), it is still an end-product of man, since it is he who did the writing and subsequent translations. even a literal interpretation, is still interpretation. who can say it won't vary from people to people, as i quote you below?

 

If you read through Matthew, you will find Christ often say: "I say to you today". See that. It appears to be a spelling error. Remember that the Bible was translated many times. If nothing else, because it is circumstansial, it should at least be omitted from the discussion for the double possibility. Either one is possible.

Meaning they are dead, and that they pass away, they don't come back, only Christ can do that.

perhaps you forgot the story from the bible about the resurrection of Lazarus? oh well, people easily "forget", i concede.

 

Concerning the verse with God the god of the living, He can't very well be the God of the dead, that is the devil.

oohhh... i guess that has been literally found in the bible too?

 

oh well, it still does not seem to negate my contention that all else is interpretation, prone to error and misinterpretation, and in the end, conflict. what it all boils down to is STILL interpretation.

[Zythrix 0]

When did just being the best person you could be and believing in god, and the whatnot, become not enough? I'm atheist personally, but when I hear the words "only one mediator is needed to reach god and that's Jesus" .. I'm pretty sure that means the bible goes in there with the priests as not-needed.

[wild20 0]

Yes Server, the Bible was translated many times. But the facts remina the same. You have to understand that when the Bible was translated, it was done from Hebrew and Greek, to English. The problem? Our punctuation is not the same, and words were chosen that best fit. does it mean we lost stuff or the Bible is inaccurate? No, it just means that we have to look at two sides of a situation. ie, the fact that Christi may have said one of two things taht mean different things. How do we know what is right? We have to look at the other facts of the Bible.It says in Psalm that the dead know nothing, and in Job that those who pass away are gone forever, or until christ comes again. See? This means that we have more evidence for one side, than the other. As far as you quoting me with God is the God of the living and how only christ can raise people from the dead, you really just confirmed that fact. that only Christ can raise people from the dead, it doesn't mean we go to heaven instantly when we die. Cause we don't. If you look in Revelation, it shows how the judgement will be at the end for ALL people. This is contrary to a popular belief that you stand in front of God as soon as you die. You don't. Lazarus died in the end too, and when Christ comes again, he will awaken him. You will also note in Revelation that the dead in Christ shall rise first. Does it say, the dead weren't really dead but in heaven? No. We die, we stay there till Christ's second coming. Ending these statements, I will still stand with my original statement, there is ONLY ONE CORRECT interpretation.

[serverph 0]

wild20, i'm just trying to point out some of your inconsistencies in your remarks. of course, if you don't regard them as inconsistencies, then there is nothing more i can do with that.

 

as for there is ONLY ONE CORRECT interpretation... maybe yes, maybe no. but taking for granted there is ONLY ONE CORRECT interpretation, are YOU SURE you have the ONLY ONE CORRECT interpretation? to sum up again my previous statements, MEN make interpretations, GOD only Himself knows of the ONLY CORRECT ONE. i would suppose you would consider yourself man still.

[wild20 0]

Finally one thing we agree with. Yes, I am man, and cannot expect or even be, as good as God. But I think people hear what they want to hear. This life after death issue is a hoax. Many people say it because they feel secure knowing that their relatives are in heaven. The point of the matter is, there isn't enough evidence to support it. I you like, I could do a full research on it using my Bible program. It willgive me all the texts, but I already have in the past and have been in enough debates on the subject to know that, in the end, everyone realizes that there is no evidence for that theory, even if they don't except mine.I don't look at anything as a religion, but as what the Bible says. Religions all have their flaws, so I feel safer not going by anything if it cannot be backed up with scripture, the Bible says it is the Word of God suitable for teaching and reproving people, that is all you need. Hey thanks for discussing, if you want to talk more about it, feel free. the topic is still open.

[Trystim 0]

I myself believe that religion was put here (by religion i mean different denominations) to scare people into saying you have to come do this and do that. The bible states that lift a rock you will find me. If you do just the little bit of research it takes you will find that the shape of the windows in a church/synagogue are symbolic of the womans vagina and the steeples are symbolic of the mans penis.They constantly saying this and that to bring things into their perspective so that they get more worshippers to their particular religion when in reality the bible is clean and cut and any confusion can be sorted out by praying to God and asking him to help you clarify it for your understanding.Just my 2 cents on the subject sorry if i offended anyone not meaning to to but it happens when you open a discussion about religion.

[wild20 0]

I see you buy into lies easy enough. I don't know where you heard this stuff. And the post that you made has almost nothing to do with the topic. I don't know why you posted it. Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, but please keep it clean next time. Thanks.Now I believe that religion is here because god created us out of love and because he wanted to make something and had a plan for us. That is my opinion.

[HoRuS 0]

Finally one thing we agree with. Yes, I am man, and cannot expect or even be, as good as God. But I think people hear what they want to hear. This life after death issue is a hoax. Many people say it because they feel secure knowing that their relatives are in heaven. The point of the matter is, there isn't enough evidence to support it. I you like, I could do a full research on it using my Bible program. It willgive me all the texts, but I already have in the past and have been in enough debates on the subject to know that, in the end, everyone realizes that there is no evidence for that theory, even if they don't except mine.

 

I don't look at anything as a religion, but as what the Bible says. Religions all have their flaws, so I feel safer not going by anything if it cannot be backed up with scripture, the Bible says it is the Word of God suitable for teaching and reproving people, that is all you need. Hey thanks for discussing, if you want to talk more about it, feel free. the topic is still open.

 

You say there is no evidence for life after death... Do you have any evidence that there is nothing after death? That it is just 'nothing'? Heh, then why bother to live? Then why do we exist? Why do we experience? Why do we struggle? Why do we even have a conciousness?

 

I don't believe in religions, but I do believe there is an eternal 'conciousness' wich keeps everything moving and all human, animal and even vegitation's minds are part of it. Some call this 'force' God, some Allah and some have other names, but I don't think it even has a name, cause it does not need a name.

 

Now I believe that religion is here because god created us out of love and because he wanted to make something and had a plan for us. That is my opinion.

If religion is here because God made us out of love, why do we always fight over religions?

And I gotta agree with Trystim on this:

I myself believe that religion was put here (by religion i mean different denominations) to scare people into saying you have to come do this and do that. The bible states that lift a rock you will find me. If you do just the little bit of research it takes you will find that the shape of the windows in a church/synagogue are symbolic of the womans vagina and the steeples are symbolic of the mans penis.

 

Religion is being used as a meaning to control people. Why else do they say we all goto hell if we don't live by their standards? Why do babies always get baptized or circumsized before they can speak or choose for themselves?

Many shapes are indeed symbols for falusses, even the towers themselves... And I never saw a female priest in a church, mosque or synagogue... Geee I wonder what the connection is...

Edited February 27, 2006 by HoRuS (see edit history)

[ongnoai 0]

I am a Catholic and we do not "worship" Saints. We only pray to them for guidance and to pray for us. Same thing with the Virgin Mary, we do not consider her as God-like and we do not worship her. We only pray to them for guidance and to pray for us.

Right CroSpartacus, I used to be a Roman Catholic and I've never bent knees in front of any Saint I can recall of, even Virgin Mary.

Well, even if I'm no longer much of a Roman Catholic (being excommunicated), I mourn on that stupid legend among Protestants that Saints are to be "worshipped" among Catholics. I can't name one Catholic around me that would go along with that kind of silly fairy tale. It's more like being jailed without being given a fair trial.

Let's talk together, friends, and try to forget prejudices we haven't forged out of our own experiences. I, for one, had surprisingly good talks discussing their faiths with Protestants, as well as with Jews and Muslims. I'm fairly sure that many Protestants (or atheists for all that) would be surprised to know what's really on honest Catholic minds.

Is the discovery of truth so scaring that nobody wants to take the first step? I dare any Protestant to find the truth about it, and I won't be the only one to call up the challenge, I'm certain of that.

And, oh! I just forgot, my children were raised in the Protestant faith, and we're getting along quite well together. You just try telling 'em I'm "worshipping" Saints, and you'll get a biiiig knowing grin in return.

Prejudice has a way to speak up while knowledge is silent, folks. Not a matter of faith, rather of human nature.

Cheers, all!

[Earths Daughter 0]

I think a lot of Non-Catholic ideas of Catholism go back to when the Protestant sects were just starting out. The Catholics freaked out and said they were all damned and witches, blasphemers, heretics, etc. That was to try to scare people away from listening to the Protestants, and maybe converting. When Henry VIII was alive, he started the Anglican faith because the Catholic Church wouldn't give him a divorce every time he asked. He persecuted people that wanted to stay Catholic, and wouldn't convert to his Anglican Church. He called them blasphemers, witches, etc. After he died, his oldest daughter took over the throne. She was a Catholic and started oppressing the heck out of the Anglicans who had converted to the Church her father made up. They were called the same names her father had called the Catholics. After she died, her younger sister inherited the throne, and she was Anglican. So they persecuted the Catholics again and called the Catholics the same names they had just been called. So there was a lot of anti-Catholic propaganda around from those days. The whole thing about Catholics supposedly worshipping Saints goes back to the Anglican efforts to stamp out Catholicism in England. There were actually very popular trashy novels that claimed to be written by ex-Priests, Monks, or Nuns. They supposedly told all the dirt inside the Catholic Church. The more shocking the stories were, the more were sold. So the authors made more money if they just made stuff up. They continued the worshipping Saints idea, and threw in orgies at Convents and Monasteries, and other fantasies for more sales. Publishing laws and laws in general were not as strict back then. Nowadays, there would be huge lawsuits over that kind of novel.I'm not a Catholic, and I don't like the Catholic Church, it has a long history of deceiving their followers, corruption, oppressing women, killing and torturing people in the name of their Church, etc. But why just quote the same old anti-Catholic propaganda from centuries ago that was made up to sell books? That stuff was just believed by the ignorant who didn't know anything about Catholicism. There is no need, just look at their actual documented history, like the Crusades, or the modern discriminaton they still practice towards women. If you need an excuse to dislike them.

[wild20 0]

HoRuS: You misunderstood me. I mean there is no instant life after death. That life comes again when Jesus once again returns. Not before. Yes we fight over religion. I believe it is wrong and that any religion taht fights, is wrong. It says in the Bible that we should not kill. That isn't a suggestion, it is a command. If we relied on God to take care of us, then we would be safe. In the bible, people only fought if directly commanded by God.ongnoai:A good way to take things. So let us discuss the first couple of items of discussion. Why do you believe in the fact that dead relatives stay in a place you can pray them out of, or is that a old belief. And why do you say that after you die, you go straight to heaven? The Bible says both in Job, in Psalms, and in Revelation, that you stay in the ground untill Christ comes. It says the dead in Christ shall rise first. Rise? That means they were dead for a time. And this is after Jesus is already coming, showing that these poeple have been dead until Christ is coming on the cloud. See a problem with taht theory? I look at truth here, and just find a lot of problems with your theories that have little or no biblical backing.

[icemarle 0]

Well, I'm a Christian, but not a Catholic. Sadly, I study in a Catholic school... What I hate about it is that they force you to worship/pray (Meh, it's the same thing) to Saints and Mary when it's CLEARLY stated that YOU SHOULD NOT WORSHIP OTHER GODS EXCEPT GOD! When you pray, you acknowledge their "power" but let me get straight to the point... They are merely HUMAN beings who were GOOD people, but that doesn't grant them any explicit power when they are dead.

[HoRuS 0]

HoRuS: You misunderstood me. I mean there is no instant life after death. That life comes again when Jesus once again returns. Not before. Yes we fight over religion. I believe it is wrong and that any religion taht fights, is wrong. It says in the Bible that we should not kill. That isn't a suggestion, it is a command. If we relied on God to take care of us, then we would be safe. In the bible, people only fought if directly commanded by God.

 

I didn't misunderstand you, but I'm trying to explain that there is instant life after death... The whole idea of God (you say Jesus, he was only a messenger) coming to save us is another proof of how easy people think:'we messed up and God will come and fix it, so we can mess up again'.

Jesus will not return, but allready is among us in our hearts... The message he spread should not be confused with the messenger himself. When he passed on he showed us there is life after death, by descending back to Earth, when he healed the sick, he was showing us that every human can heal with his or her 'being'(soul). When he turned water into wine, he showed us the principles of alchemy, wich also is affected by the soul.

 

And the 'real' God will never lead a war, no war wich is fought in our whole history was ever commanded by God, but merely by those who say they worship God.

 

You say 'Thou shall not steal and thou shall kill no one',

still you steal from us, kill us and then you teach us wrong.

^^^quoted by an opressed freedomfighter^^^ I can totally relate to it
Edited February 28, 2006 by HoRuS (see edit history)

[wild20 0]

Icemarle, that is the point I was trying to make. Your clrifying opinion was greatly needed. Thank you.

HoRuS:
You are saying that we go to heaven instantly? Let me first ask for evidence. Because you need it to back your claim. Here is mine:

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished 2 Peter 2:9
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath. Job 21:30

I am forgotten as a dead man out of mind: I am like a broken vessel. Psalms 31:12

Now it doesn't sound to me like you are instantly transported to heaven after you die. No, you remain in the ground. When the unjust and sinful die, they stay in the ground. A right and godly person does otherwise? No! Here is proof.

1 Thessalonians 4:16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

And there you have it. We will rise first. When? When Jesus comes AGAIN. No this is not the Rapture, which doesn't exist anyway. and no this is not that instant thing we talked about earlier, this is down to earth, where the rubber hits the road, Christ coming again. Check it out for yourself.

Now of this second coming. You say that he is already here. Are you denying a second coming? Because if that was so, then Revelation is nothing but a hoax. which it isn't, since the Bible says that the Word of God is valuable and worthy to be used for reproof, and for teaching all people. Now ytour evidence:....