Evidence For God. The ?real? evidence for a living God

[wild20 0]

Please move if needed, there still isn?t a RELIGION forum and I could not find any relevant topics coinciding with this!

 

 

Boy, is this consroversial, but I wrote it a while back and thought I would post it

Some things are beyond our comprehension folks. Things that we will never understand. There are journeys we take in our life that cause us to have mixed feelings, beliefs, and ultimately, big differences between us. We feel as though we are a small part of a vast universe in its travels. We have seen the shame, the evil, and the unjustness. Many doubt that there is a God, many people know there is, but refuse to accept Him. I have myself rejected a loving God. Though I didn?t know it at the time. Raised in a Christian family, I have always believed in God. I took it by faith, and still do. But some people can never believe in something, if they cannot see the evidence, or even the object itself. Forum members, today, I am going to bring you the truth and facts, the evidence, if you will, that shows there IS a God. Let us start.

 

Evolutionist?s viewpoint:

The evolutionist believes that the world began when a ?Big Bang? caused an instantaneous creation of the universe. But wait, there is more. You see we weren?t here yet. We were just organisms in the ocean. What we were before that, I have no idea probably sludge or something. But let?s move on. We evolved, slowly through a process of selection until we started to be perfected, with the fit surviving. Strange huh? Now, with evolutions theory, we will soon become perfect. But there are some flaws.

 

The flaws:

Evolution says that the organism needs only enough brain or knowledge to become smart. For instance, we are evolved enough that we can do math and other problems, as well as retain knowledge well. The earlier civilizations, by evolution?s standards, were dumb. But here we meet a conflict. An evolutionist took an Indian never in contact with the civilized world, and gave him the best education. In 10 years, he was a world-class scholar. See a problem? There is. The Indian should have never of been advanced enough to be so smart. Here we meet the first problem. But we meet even more going back farther. You see, we find a mysterious link that seems to be missing. Suspicious? Why, yes, yes it is. But we will still find more problems, you see. We find a point in time where we were dumb, and were still meeting the needs we required to stay alive. May I ask why we have knowledge today to have technologically advanced minds, but other animals don?t. If there is a chance for anything to become an intelligent being, than why don?t we see more? Why just us? No answers? But more then that, evolution claims we evolved, working our way up in the ?system? until we are here today. If we came from fish, why did we come from them? And if we did, why are fish still here if they are inferior. After all, fish get eaten, we don?t, the fish shouldn?t be here right now, we should have stomped them out through ?natural selection?. You see, evolution is just a theory. Science is a fact. I see evolution taught in all sorts of ways, but always in schools. Especially in public schools, but especially in science class. But why when science is out of comprehension and cannot be proven? Like I said, just a theory. Now lets look at some more arguments for God. We start with:

 

A creationist?s viewpoint:

We believe that God created the earth in six days, taking the seventh to rest, as it says in the Bible. There was nothing before earth. He created the heavens and the earth. This includes the universe. No Big Bang. We believe that God is the intelligent designer behind it all. Why? Because we can see from history that there were people, they came from somewhere. And that God is the one who made us, besides there are miracles out there. What else could it be? But the most influencing reason is because we know that Jesus died for us. Ancient records show it. And, if you look, the Bible showed scientific principles before they were even known. We know the Bible existed for many years before accurate scientific principles even came out. Let me show you some,

 

What backs it:

These are some scientific principles the Bible talked about before they were known to be true.

An ancient belief was that all stars were the same. But the Bible says different:

1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

 

Another was that air was weightless. Really, we know differently now and we can also see that the Bible says differently:

Job 28:25 To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure.

 

Another belief was that mountains were only on earth, I mean, no one went down that far. They thought there were monsters down there. But Jonah, when he was disobedient to God, was swallowed by a fish, and he got to know what was down there, and here is his account:

Jon 2:5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.

Jon 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

 

And again we had the belief that the earth was flat. But again the Bible had the answer:

Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

 

And believe it or not guys, there was also a belief that there were six thousand stars. But again, the bible had the answer:

Jer 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

 

And finally, if you are getting sick of all the quote tags, we have one more. People didn?t know that there was a water cycle. They didn?t know where it came from. But wait, it?s a bird, it?s a plane, NO, it?s the Bible to the rescue!

Ecc 1:7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

 

Can you believe that!? The Bible had it all along. If only we had heeded it. You see guys, God is greater then we, He created this earth, I think He knows how it works. When you put together a bike, by the time you are done, you know how it works. It just blows my mind guys!

 

You know guys, there is just a great example I love to use. Suppose you found a watch, it was sitting on a rock, the first you would ask is not, where did the rock come from, you would ask, where did the watch come from. Apparently, the watch did not get there on it?s own. It must have had some designer. However, what about the rock? Where did it come from? It didn?t get there on its own as you can imagine. But the first thing you would think is, it?s been there forever. But I know differently. ?Something? happened. No, I am not trying to freak you out, but something had to happen in order for it to get there, but back to the watch. Let me propose to you, that the watch was there all along to, it just developed there, all by itself. Now most people would find this ludicrous. But why? Okay fine, I will change that to, it evolved from a tree. Now I would be on my way to a metal institution. You see, if I told you that we came from a fish, it is quite believable. Now, why couldn?t we come from a tree? These arguments may seem dumb, but its all evidence that evolution is another theory that can?t be proven because it isn?t practical, nor is it right. I know it sounds like I am tearing down evolution a lot, but that is because I am. I give arguments on both sides to prove the case. Any people willing to discuss, I am not getting into any debates, or else I would have posted it there. No, I want a discussion. If you want to get into an argument, then fine, I like a minor debate, but nothing big guys. Okay? And please keep your calm during high-tension discussions. Thanks guys!

[niloc 0]

if that is the best real evidence that is available then i will have to remain to be a non believer in god and religion.you take quotes from the bible to prove that it is a books full of facts on how the world works , unfortunately you do not give any credit to the authors of the bible ... i am sure that they were not dumb people , in fact they were probably extremely clever and had quite a few original ideas themselves how the world worked.one thing is still unproven to me by your real evidence .... is the bible a literary work of fact or fiction , most likely in my mind is that it is a collection of stories that have been exaggerated over a period time.the only one thing that religion has brought to this world is death caused by the numerous wars between deffierent religious factions.

[wild20 0]

You forget one thing though Niloc. Let us say that the Bible had been written by someone else. If it was and is not credible, it would still have been put together around the middle ages. Meaning? That whoever wrote what ahead of their time since the early midle age beliefs were still focused on the fact that the world was round, that air was weightless, and that there were only a few thousand stars.No one without either advanced hidden technology for that day, or super natural guidance would have had the oppurtunity to get ALL of the theories right the very first time they were written down. Thereby in itself backing the Bible as a feature that was guided by something more then just man's imagination. It was inspired, and Christians believe, by God.By examining both the age that the Bible was written in, (The Bible was written before 1200 ad since the early churches already had parts of the Bible. But interestingly enough it was put together in 1611 in the complete Bible we now have today) and the fact that beliefs even up to the 1400s were contrary to what a book written before then had, we can very well believe that the Bible is true.

[electriic ink 1]

the only one thing that religion has brought to this world is death caused by the numerous wars between deffierent religious factions.

You think that, eh? I guess you'd love to work right through Christmas this year, not receiving any gifts or enjoying the happiness it brings. Christmas, believe it or not, is around because Jesus was born.

 

Religion has bought much happiness to this world through the form of celebrations.

 

Sure, religion is a cause of wars but leadership, money and greed are all other causes. The latter (leadership, money and greed) are the ones which all religions are against.

 

Also, bear in mind, that the Muslim terrorist organisations which use jihad as an excuse for blowing up western cities, are misinterpreting it. It's their fault not the religion's.

 

Your view of "religion = death to millions" is ignorant.

[Plenoptic 0]

It isn't that religions has caused any wars because they haven't. It is the failure to accept other religions that has brought war. The Romans for example. When Christianity was introduced they didn't like it. They said that because the people don't accept the Roman gods, that they should be punished. So they killed hundreds of Christians because they had a different religion and they wouldn't worship their gods. It isn't that the religion caused that, it is the Romans who couldn't accept that they believed in things other than what they did. There are many different points of views to this, and that is mine for ya.

[wild20 0]

Right Cmat and Plenoptic. There is such a thing as tolerance. We all have a right to our own religion. Like I said, the Nazis didn't and they made a big mistake and it cost many people their lives. Remember what I said, the Bible says we can't kill. But the problem is some Christians don't follow that.Just like plenoptic said. Romans killed Christians, and even Christians persecuted Christians. Like the Roman Catholics in the middle ages and the Protestants. Not that it makes it right, because it doesn't, and Christians make mistakes too. That is where God's saving grace and Jesus' death on the cross comes into play.

[moldboy 0]

And again we had the belief that the earth was flat. But again the Bible had the answer:QUOTE
Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

This quote doesn't actualy say that the earth isn't flat, it just says it's round, but if you look at a plate (for eating off of) they are both flat and round. There is also a quote somewhere that says that Jesus (I believe) stood on a mountian and could see all four corners of his kingdom, thus the earth must be flat, and even more so square!

unfortunately you do not give any credit to the authors of the bible ... i am sure that they were not dumb people

The very fact that they could write proves this!

It isn't that the religion caused that, it is the Romans who couldn't accept that they believed in things other than what they did.

I aggree entirly, infact I bet if you could ask the roman gods, they wouldn't have approved of the actions of their people.
Now my point, I believe in being able to argue both sides of the puzzle, it helps to keep an open mind. I believe in God (or at least a body which is better in all ways to myself, and all humanity) in principle, I don't believe that he controls all aspects of my life, I conpaire it to a piece of open source software, God is the origional programer, he made the software to his specifications, but after releasing it on the internet lets it grow and 'evolve' into its own software. Thus is also accept the theories of evolution. You want more Evidence, try this, right now we are faced with the problem of calling it Christmas, it not right because not everybody practices christmas, but many groups have simmilar celibrations, with many of the same themes. It is similar evidence to this that is used to argue atlantis, at about the same time historicaly on diffrent parts of the world (seperated by oceans) stories are carved in stone that a tell a similar thing, of a civilization who had hot running water and many advanced technologies, that sunk under the ocean. It would seem that the only way for this story to be told around the world would be for a group of people to have escaped the sinking and traveled around the world telling their story!

Now Douglas Adams, a person who believes strongly against god says, in one of his books, that the men said I have proven the existance of God, and god said Oh dear, and dissapeared. (This is not an exact quote) you see it is said that inorder for god to exist you must believe, and once you proove beyond a doubt that he does exist you stop believing (As is the nature of belief, belief turns to knowledge), thus killing God from a lack of belief. It is the nature of these posts that claime to give exidence to the existance of God, it is people who feel the need to place their beliefs onto others who start religious wars.

[Unregistered 015 0]

  It isn't that religions has caused any wars because they haven't. It is the failure to accept other religions that has brought war.

Same thing. In other words: no religion, no wars!

You think that, eh? I guess you'd love to work right through Christmas this year, not receiving any gifts or enjoying the happiness it brings. Christmas, believe it or not, is around because Jesus was born.
Religion has bought much happiness to this world through the form of celebrations.

Sure, religion is a cause of wars but leadership, money and greed are all other causes. The latter (leadership, money and greed) are the ones which all religions are against.

You are happy for Christmas because you get presents. Period. Aren't presents something that has value (you use money to buy it)?! Are you happy for the money? Or because of the Christmas? I don't think it's Christmas.

In my opinion religion was created by PEOPLE!

Egiptians had their "gods", Romans had theirs, today we have our. Some other day, who knows, we may know more, and think how foolish we were....

[Plenoptic 0]

Same thing. In other words: no religion, no wars!

That isn't true at all. Look at the United States fighting in Iraq for example. They weren't trying to change their religion, they are trying to make Iraq a better place even though others might not see it that way.

You are happy for Christmas because you get presents. Period. Aren't presents something that has value (you use money to buy it)?! Are you happy for the money? Or because of the Christmas? I don't think it's Christmas

Of course everyone is happy to get presents on Christmas. That is not what Christmas was meant to be and a lot of people see it as what is was. It is supposed to celebrate the birth of Christ (for those that celebrate it) The only problem is that over the years people have just started looking at it as a way to get new toys. I go to church on Christmas every year to celebrate the birth of Christ. A lot of people do. It is the busiest day at church of the year. Many people might love Christmas for the gifts but they do celebrate the fact that Christ had been born. For those that don't, well then they don't really know what Christmas is about. We all sometimes let presents get in the way of things sometimes.

[wild20 0]

Looks like this has turned into a debate anyway as you can see. Even moved ;)So are you saying that World War II was caused by religion? No!Moldboy:Well now, if it said that the earth is flat with rounded edges, okay then. But does it? No! It says circle. Is a plate or bowl a circle? No. If it meant that it would say half circle or sphere. And:Are you saying that I am going to stop believing in God? Remember faith and evidence can co-exist. I have to say that there is nothing wrong that showing God does exist.ciroxyz:You perception of Christmas is obviously messed up. It is about giving and not getting. No matter what religion you are! It sounds you are more voicing your opinion rather than ours.Another thing, although there are many gods, the actual God, is different from the others. He is alive and living, He does not live on earth or in temples, He doesn't accept offerings andfood given to Him, He just wants our lives so He can save our souls, and He one and doesn't need people to take care of Him and is almighty and Holy and just in everything. These are the decisive features characterizing God apart from others and showing that He is the true God. All the others are pagan. The Bible doesn't contridict science, rather, science contridicts the Bible and when it does, it is ALWAYS a theory unable to be proven. But known stuff and FACTS, never ever go against the Bible.

[niloc 0]

Looks like this has turned into a debate anyway as you can see. Even moved

 

So are you saying that World War II was caused by religion? No!

 

Moldboy:

Well now, if it said that the earth is flat with rounded edges, okay then. But does it? No! It says circle. Is a plate or bowl a circle? No. If it meant that it would say half circle or sphere. And:

 

Are you saying that I am going to stop believing in God? Remember faith and evidence can co-exist. I have to say that there is nothing wrong that showing God does exist.

 

ciroxyz:

You perception of Christmas is obviously messed up. It is about giving and not getting. No matter what religion you are! It sounds you are more voicing your opinion rather than ours.

 

Another thing, although there are many gods, the actual God, is different from the others. He is alive and living, He does not live on earth or in temples, He doesn't accept offerings andfood given to Him, He just wants our lives so He can save our souls, and He one and doesn't need people to take care of Him and is almighty and Holy and just in everything. These are the decisive features characterizing God apart from others and showing that He is the true God. All the others are pagan. The Bible doesn't contridict science, rather, science contridicts the Bible and when it does, it is ALWAYS a theory unable to be proven. But known stuff and FACTS, never ever go against the Bible.

214077[/snapback]

 

i am confused by your answer cmatcmextra.

i said that religion has brought to this world is death caused by the numerous wars between deffierent religious factions.

 

Sure, religion is a cause of wars

 

[cmatcmextra]

Your view of "religion = death to millions" is ignorant.

 

how can you agree with me with one quote and then rewrite what i actually said with the next quote and end up by calling me ignorant ..... makes me think that perhaps it is you that is the ignorant one.

 

Also, bear in mind, that the Muslim terrorist organisations which use jihad as an excuse for blowing up western cities, are misinterpreting it. It's their fault not the religion's.

 

unfortunately you are completely wrong on this quote ..... please read the quote below taken from the koran .... the muslims version of the bible.

 

by the way , before you ask .... i am not a muslim.

 

if you were to look at the rest of the koran you might find lots of quotes that you could use to prove the existence of allah ... the muslim god.

doesnt it strike you as strange that there may be two gods that have created our universe?

 

KORAN commands to kill infidels:

 

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

 

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

 

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

 

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

 

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216

(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

 

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

 

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

 

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

 

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

 

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

 

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

 

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

 

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

 

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

 

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

 

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

 

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

 

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

 

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

 

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

 

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

 

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

 

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

 

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:

Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

 

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

 

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

 

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

 

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4

(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

 

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

 

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

 

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

 

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

 

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

 

Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)

 

Notice from saint-michael:

bbcode not working here. is that reason for the no quoting in the no post count?

Edited December 28, 2005 by mayank (see edit history)

[wild20 0]

Actually, (and please correct me if I am wrong) Islam is the religion of muslims right? Anyway, the koran, and this religion is an off shoot of the belief in God. Mohammad believed he was a prophet of God and started the movement. But it was after the Bible was written. Meaning? Although we worship the same God, our religious beliefs arte different. Christians don't believe Muslims are on the right track because:1. The Bible was being written long before the Koran and was influenced by god.2. Muslims believe in earning your way to heaven, something which the Bible says is not true and since it was written before the Koran we know that is more accurate.3. We have about 20 men that wrote the Bible all at different time periods, but all in harmony. Then we have one person who wrote the Koran claiming to be a "Prophet".The Koran probably does give evidence for God, but that is because it had some of the basic beliefs taht we have.

[fraudulentpeanut 0]

I for one will still remain an Athiest. I do belive that there is a higher plane that we are not aware of, however, I do not at all believe in a God. If I were to practice any religion, it would probably be Buddhism. The reason for that being is that it is the only religion in the world that can respect and accept other gods and religions. They teach to worship your gods as you wish, however, respect the principal of the buddhist way of life.To be honest, I thought that I would open up your post and see some SOLID scientific evidence that God really existed would be there, but I was a little supprised that most of your evidence was in Biblical passages. I do not want to fuel this debate anymore because I do believe that we could not make it through life without a little faith in something, even if it is just to make it to the next day. But for the horrors that I have seen I can not bring myself to believe that even a vengeful god would allow.

[Tyssen 0]

That isn't true at all.  Look at the United States fighting in Iraq for example.  They weren't trying to change their religion, they are trying to make Iraq a better place even though others might not see it that way.

That's a poor example. The Iraq conflict's not about religion, it's about money and power as are the majority of conflicts these days.
Hundreds of years ago, it was a different story. The Crusades most definitely were about religion. To describe them as anything else is foolish. The atrocities committed by both sides centuries ago engendered resentments that still exist today in the attitudes of the Middle East towards the Western world.

[fasdsffasda 0]

This is probley the worst proof i have ever seen.If you dont believe in god, you wouldnt believe the bible, therefore why would we suddenly believe in god after you quote the bible?You flaws in evolution arnt even real flaws. life is common, but intellegent life is rare, the creature who has the trait that allows it to live (such as intellegence in humans) lives, the one who doesn't dies. The one that lives mates and passes the gene that allowed it to live down to its young, and the cycle repeats.We are much different then or cromagen cousins as far as the brain goes, not to mention we are about a foot taller then they were.And if the world is only 10 thousand years old, how do you explain dinosour bones and of prehistoric findings. Please dont try to even share you religon unless you have some real proof next time.thank youand wild 20christanity just copied other single god religons before it, so really islam and christanity are just copys of religons you believe are false.