Abortion

[leiaah 0]

My whole opinion on sex is this: If you can't be good then at least be safe.

 

This way people who don't want the responsibility of having a child won't be subjected to the dilemma of whether to have a child aborted or not. Abortion is wrong so people should have protected sex if they're not ready to have a child.

[wild20 0]

Galahad, I will admit, you are right. Rape has a profound effect on a person. It is awful, but at the same time, the pregnancy is also bad. And like I said, I can never understand. But like I said, will you risk that one eceptional and beautiful life for the sake of the unwanted chore of keeping it? You risk a beaitiful life that could be the Only, the ONLY one to save someone, maybe a close family member. Incidents like this have happened, and I believe, because of God's will. Do you really think that the choice of an innocent life should be put upon our shoulders, that the very life that could one day spring to a wonderful life, should rest in you're hands? A person who makes mistakes every single day you live? What if it was the ONE, just the ONE mistake, that could cost someone their life?Would you work to promote the killing of infants? Then why unborns? Can you think about one thing for me? Think of it this way. You are either making the world better or tearing it down, there is no in between is there? Just please remember this folks. There is nothing worse then letting a life die in vain.

[JC05 0]

Wild20 is right, what if you aborted a child that would have saved someone from death? Lets say you got pregnant and desided to keep the baby. He or She grows up, go's to school, gets a job, gets married, has kids, life couldn't be better for the baby you choose to keep. The family moves to New York City and settles down. Well one day He or She walks down to the corner to get some coffee. They get to the corner and theres someone standing there waiting to cross the street. It turns green and they start walking arcoss the street. A busy street mind you. A drunk driver pulls around the corner and the person you choose not to abort see's the drunk and they run to safety before the car gets there. There are still two people alive. Now lets say you aborted 30 years ago, now, thirty years later someone walks up to an busy intersection in down town New York, the cross walk turns green and they begin to walk across the road. Just then a drunk driver comes around the corner and is headed right for this person going across the street. The person does not even see it coming. And in a matter of seconds, BAM! The person gets hit. And there dead. Now there are Two people dead. The one you had choosen to abort, and the one who didn't get help in time. Think about it.

[sonorama 0]

This is quite difficult.... I think abortion must be a choice for everysingle woman. But in the other side, I think also that abortion is cruel and I wouldn't like my gf, sister or ladyfriends to do it....It definitely goes beyond the christianity or moral concepts. It has more to do with personal and family values. But how can we make a certain difference between what is good and what is bad? None knows....I'd say: Go ahaead, it is your choice.... kill your baby if you want to....Cheers!!

[believer 0]

in any angle you look at it abortion is unacceptable for me.why would someone kill somebody not to mention that it is their own flesh and blood, the child has nothing to do with your own mistake, why punish him or cut his choice of a life.

[OCAC 0]

Sorry have been missing out on the fun, wild20 - I have to say as a Christian I am concerned about God's will, and I have to justify the choices I make before God.

Not all choices I make are easy once some are difficult, like going to war or putting my life on the line to save a drowning child.

In those cases I make a choice that endanger MY life, and maybe that of someone else (I might not have had a very good swim training and the person drowns, because I am crap at swimming.)

But I made the choice, God gave me the free will to jump into that lake risk my life. Now the person dies because of my action, yet I survive. How do I cope with that? I caused that persons death.

 

What I am saying here, being human means making choices, being a person of faith means making these choice before God, responsible before his judgment.

 

Yes, I know the verse in Exodus, but you also know Mark 2, 23?28? Jesus overcame the law. Laws are not made to take away your responsibility. You cannot hide behind the law in your decision.

You cannot say:

Oh, I am not allowed to kill so maybe, I better not get involved. No, the law is a guidance to you. How you behave is up to you. It is your RESPONSIBILITY. You can ignore the law and you can act against the law, if the law is stupid, but you are issued by God with a brain and with feeling, and compassion and all sorts of other emotions and rationals.

 

You cannot hide behind the law. Being a sinner, and all of us are sinner, means, we make choices, and we make right choices, and we make wrong choices. But being a Christian means, we can come with all our choices to God and request, hope, pray for his forgiveness.

 

Now some of these choices are made for us, we find ourselves in that situation and have to cope maybe radical with it in our own interest.

 

Sorry, for being all so theoretical, but I want to show you the complexity of this issue. You cannot hide behind the law. The law protects, yes, but it is YOU - the person that is the only one that can make the decision, the only one responsible, the only one capable of making the choice, the only one that has the duty and RIGHt and therefore also the responsibility to make the decision. And sometimes that decision has to be against the law. Sometimes this means the woman has to abort.

 

Like the Boston Tea-party was against the law, but we are rightly proud of it.

 

I don't want to soften the "You shall not kill". I only want to give you a dimension to the problem, that shows, the world is not Black and White. But living in a world of sin, but being in a state of grace, means responsibility for all our actions, even if this action is the termination of a lump of cells.

[wild20 0]

There is a black and white Ocac. You guys don't see it yet. You can't both benefit the world and tear it down too at the same time. Abortion is black and white. You don't lay the responsibility on sinners to kill or let someone live. Unless it directly conflicts with the bible, then God has given us a government to rule and decide. But not innocent lives. Remember God, He doesn't have a part good part bad. We are to live like Him. This means that you have to have the same black and white, the same, yes its okay, and no its wrong, that God does. Do you think he picks and chooses when to let abprtion happen and when not to? No!God is unchanging merciful and love. He has given us texts that show we don't kill innocent lives, we don't murder, and we don't steal.Of course we have the responsibility for our OWN actions, but not for the life of a baby. We don't let something die because it came out of circumstances that are not so perfect. You don't choose abortion as a quick way out. It never is. It only hurts the people's lives further. You can't let an innocent life die because you think it is right. You go by the Bible.

[OCAC 0]

There is a black and white Ocac.  You guys don't see it yet.  You can't both benefit the world and tear it down too at the same time.  Abortion is black and white.  You don't lay the responsibility on sinners to kill or let someone live.  Unless it directly conflicts with the bible, then God has given us a government to rule and decide.  But not innocent lives.  Remember God, He doesn't have a part good part bad.  We are to live like Him.  This means that you have to have the same black and white, the same, yes its okay, and no its wrong, that God does.  Do you think he picks and chooses when to let abprtion happen and when not to?  No!

 

God is unchanging merciful and love.  He has given us texts that show we don't kill innocent lives, we don't murder, and we don't steal.

 

Of course we have the responsibility for our OWN actions, but not for the life of a baby.  We don't let something die because it came out of circumstances that are not so perfect.  You don't choose abortion as a quick way out.  It never is.  It only hurts the people's lives further.  You can't let an innocent life die because you think it is right.  You go by the Bible.

200263[/snapback]

I am glad wild20 you are against the death penalty and a pacifist. there is at least something we can agree on.

 

And no, the world is not black and white. there are lots of different colours and and even black is not always black (see how you can print black in RGB and in CYMK, ask any printer...

 

What I am trying to say here is, that yes, you can abstract every problem down to a theoretical level and say, don't lie, don't break the speed limit, don;t tax dodge, don;t , don;'t don't

 

live is not that simple.

 

Live has the tendency to interfere and throw up things that are unexpected, and then you have to deal with them and individual life is never black and white.

 

It would be nice for all problems to be black an white. but they are not. All problems have their individual histories. therefore they are usually black and white for those that are not involved. And here, I am sorry to say that, but since you are a man, you are not involved. Therefore it is easy for you to say, it is black and white.

 

I am looking for an example, from your life, where, I don;t know, you go shopping and the cashier forgets to scan one item. not much just a couple of bucks. you are in a hurry and your mother is waiting in the car outside, you are on your way to somewhere and you don;t want to miss the ferry, there is a huge que and anyway you only notice on the way out, that hey, you got a better deal here. are you with me? I hope you go back and miss the last ferry and are stuck on the island for another week with your mother, father and three younger sisters all mad at you because you behaved white. I honestly hope so.

 

This example seems obscure, but live is never black and white. If it were black and white, what is the point?

 

You might think, why is OCAC bringing up such a strange example, when we are discussing live and death. Well, because life and death decisions are only easy for those that think in black and white. I have a problem with killing people, because I don't think in black and white. I don;t like abortions because it harms a potentially beautiful creature. But I am not the mother of that child. I cannot make the decision. I have no power to make that woman stop, not wanting to bear out. Nor should the law. Nor should human law, make that woman do something that is against her interest. The law is made to support, the law is a servant of the people.

 

Remember, there are two lives involved. And in forbidding abortion you are putting the life of one person against the life of another person. It might not always be a life and death situation for the mother in a physical sense, but if for her abortion is really the only option, then her life is in danger.

Why do you - on principle - always side against the mother?

 

Mothers are supposed to know best. Aren't they? So, why is it not possible to trust them here. To support them with a really difficult decision?

 

Coming back to black and white. I think black and white thinking is very dangerous. and the story in Mark I quoted earlier is supporting that as well. But also, look at the Peter, Maybe you say the only real Peter is the one after Pentecost, well, I would dispute that. He is a very shady character, with lots of very interesting aspects to his life and his ministry. It was not all black and cockerel in his life.

 

I don;t know if we can resolve this discussion, but what I want to say is: Luk 6:37

[Galahad 0]

Hi all,Life is everything but black and white.If it were,it would be much easier,and much more boring.We can all agree that killing another living being is bad.And yes,if a mother should abort,that aborted child might in future save someones life.That is a very nice theory,in case that all existence ends there.Let us use that New York example further.Say a mother decided to keep the baby.And that baby saves a nother persons life,say and midleaged man.They run to safety,all is well.Now,here can come to a twist in the storyline.That rescued midleaged man,say 3 years later,goes home after a party,driving,and intoxicated.During that drive,he runs another car off the road, killing a family of 5.Doesn't seem like a very nice outcome does it?The other scenario you can complete by yourself.That man dies in New York,on that intersection,and that family,3 years later,gets home safely.And this does not end here,no.Ofcourse,you can twist the scenario your way again,and so can I.This only proves that life is a series of choices,intersections,where choices we make influence choices onwards in future.I like to look on life from the bright side,and to be always optimistic.A series of events in my personal life,that happened recently,have shown me that even though I look on the bright side of life,very bad,and very dark things happen.Despite all my cheery mood,and optimism,this doesn't change the fact,that my life has bad and sad and dark elements as well.I think mothers should have their choice,and all of us that are "not concerned" by that choice,should keep our noses clear.Or,we should all get implanted chips in our heads,and replace our names with numbers?To have one giant brain,that will make our choices for us.Abortion is mothers choice,and all parties not involved,should stay clear.Hypotheticaly speaking, if god existed,that mother of aborted child,will have to face god,and stand before him/her,and justify her actions.Not you,not me.Her alone.And I agree,this is a neverending discussion,and I doubt it will be resolved any time soon.Cheers

[wild20 0]

So let me ask you something OCAC. do you then believe that God is not black and white, and created a world with perfection? However, sin was introduced. So now we have supernaturals.1. Good, and two,2 Evil.So do you believe some other milky substance was added? No, there was nothing alse. The two don't blend together, they can't. Leaving what? White over here, and black over here. Not together. You can't have it both ways. God is either always good. We are not good and bad, at a time we are either one or the other. We are either saved, or not saved. Right? Right! So you see. Something is either good or bad. How you can you judge it if its not. I can't say say, abortion is good and bad, It's not.Good and bad are forces being fought canstantly. Remember God is good, and satan is bad. You can't serve them both. If abortion were ordained by God, then fine, but I have yet to see a verse that says we can have an abortion. A matter of fact, I remember seeing a verse that says thou shalt not kill. Interesting huh? This goes AGAINST abortion.

[Mike83 0]

I think that it should be upto the women wether she allows something to grow inside her or not. If when a women has an abortion, the baby is old enough to have a chance of living then the doctors should do all they can to keep it alive, and let a family adopt it, but its still upto the women if she allows it to live and grow inside her or not.

[OCAC 0]

So let me ask you something OCAC.  do you then believe that God is not black and white, and created a world with perfection?  However, sin was introduced.  So now we have supernaturals.

 

1.  Good, and two,

2  Evil.

 

So do you believe some other milky substance was added?  No, there was nothing alse.  The two don't blend together, they can't.  Leaving what?  White over here, and black over here.  Not together.  You can't have it both ways.  God is either always good.  We are not good and bad, at a time we are either one or the other.  We are either saved, or not saved.  Right?  Right!  So you see.  Something is either good or bad.  How you can you judge it if its not.  I can't say say, abortion is good and bad,  It's not.

 

Good and bad are forces being fought canstantly.  Remember God is good, and satan is bad.  You can't serve them both.  If abortion were ordained by God, then fine, but I have yet to see a verse that says we can have an abortion.  A matter of fact, I remember seeing a verse that says thou shalt not kill.  Interesting huh?  This goes AGAINST abortion.

201428[/snapback]

Where is the bible does it say God is black and white? No, I know, God is not black and white. The concept of black and white is a gnostic concept introduced into Christianity in the 2nd century and has always been seen as a heresy. You wild20 are a heretic in believing that God is simply white. That there was a good creator god and an evil tempter. Christianity has fought against people like you for nearly 2000 years, and it is a pity, that people like you have not let go of their false, inhuman, ungodly and unbiblical ways. You still call yourself a Christian but you are a heathen. Sorry. You have the faith of a heathen and you read the bible like heretic. Picking what you like.

 

You can quote the bible at me at your leisure, and yes there is a lot of "children of the light" in there. But that does not take away the fact that God is more understanding and not a black and white thinker.

 

Of course I cannot serve both, I can only serve god, but that does not mean I cannot make mistakes. I make mistakes every day. But God gave me the confidence, to come back to him and ask him for forgiveness. He allowed me to glimpse his grace and ask my neighbor for forgiveness. He told me to be kind to my sister and try and understand and not judge them by my rules, only seeing their splinter, but by listening, standing in the back of the church not at the front where the hypocrites live, that believe they have to interfere in something that is not their business.

 

You see, even when I am saved, I can still drown and be saved again and drown and be saved and drown and be saved. My faith gives me the hope that I will be saved again, and again. I live in hope that God is my judge and not you.

 

btw. is jealousy good or bad?

 

P.S I notice you are still a pacifist and are still against the death penalty and are on the street every week, twice to demonstrate for your believes.

[wild20 0]

First o all. I am not against the death oenalty. God says, thou shalt not kill. The innocent. But God says in His word that we have the government, or rulers, to execute His wrath on those that are workers of evil.

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Now when we talk about jealousy, we have to look at the Bible. The ten commandments are always first, then we move down to the more specifs mentioned elsewhere in the Bible. Here we go.

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

God is a jealous God, and therefore wants us to worship Him. Unserstandable, because He created us. He is devine. We however, are human, putting are selfish actions first. Jealousy is not ours to have. We can see this in the Bible.

Proverbs 6:34 For jealousy is the rage of a man: therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance.

So in the Bible, we have a black for man and a white for God. It's like this, abortion is wrong. We do not have the choice of death, but God does. Does that make Him evil? No. He is executing wrath on people like murders. Never the innocent. This means that if anything we should be killing the rapists. Although not to the extreme. I don't have a heretical view. But I don't believe in killing something innocent. I am not condemning you or anyone else. But the practice itself. God says to hate the sin, and not the sinner. Abortion is wrong, so I fight againt it. See people ake it very offensively. Please don't. Its not you, but the practice of abortion.

[xereo 0]

The question should be :Is abortion a moral or ethical issue.

Morals are determine by God and ethics are determined by the widsom of man, such as Plato. Of course, how does God describe man's wisdom?

1 Cor 1: 19-21, 25  For it is written, "I  WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."  Where  is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made  foolish the wisdom of the  world?  For since in the wisdom of God the  world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God  was well-pleased through the foolishness  of the message  preached to save  those who believe. ...Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

What is God's advice for those who rely on ethics instead of morals?

Isaiah 55:6-9 6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call  upon Him while He is near.  Let  the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts;  And let him return  to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly  pardon.

Oh, yeah abortion is murder so it is morally wrong!

Exodus 20:13 "  You shall not murder.

Notice from saint-michael:

make sure to quote your sources since they are not yours

Edited November 5, 2005 by Saint_Michael (see edit history)

[wild20 0]

Xereo:You are right. Man does not have the capability to decide who should live or die. We cannot comprehend the lives that we may destroy. No one can give any bible or scriptue to show whether or not Abortion is right or wrong. So, why do it? If you cannot be sure that something is from God, then why do it? You risk the lives of so many people.The bible lways the ULTIMATE word of God. We need to obey God, not the men who believe that everything by choice is okay.Oh, and you forgot to quote the bible verses Xereo. Just a reminder.