Is God To Blame? Who is to blame for the pain around us?

[wild20 0]

Does anybody know? I do. Many people are led astray because they don't understand that it is not God who causes the pain of this world, but satan. They also believe that God let satan take control. Let me explain. In the beginning, before creation, there was a war in heaven where satan took a third of th angels and fought Jesus. Jesus won. It is here, that satan said God is unfair. So here is where God gives satan a chance to prove that before the whole universe. After creation Adam disobeyed God and ate a fruit that was not allowed to be eaten. I believe this tree was put there as a test. Adam ate after temptation from eve and satan, who had origanally tempted eve. Stan caused the first pain and suffering. Now God could strike satan down, but satan would then make good on his claim that God is unfair to him. So he lets him continue his evil deeds. At the end of time, when we are taken to heaven, ALL will know who is fair. Any arguments?

[moonwitch 0]

In the beginning, before creation, there was a war in heaven where satan took a third of th angels and fought Jesus. Jesus won.

Ok, how can Jesus win a war when he's not even born? Because before the creation of what we call Earth, there was no Jesus. Because he was born in the year 0AD. There were maaaaany millions of years before that, before his birth.
In case you wonder about my nickname, yes I am a witch. And no, that doesn't make me whatever associated with what you call satan. I don't believe in satan, nor do I believe in the concept of pure evil and pure good. Everything is dualistic in its nature.

While I try my best to respect all religions, I just can't shake the feeling that it's so easy to just blame satan, who to me is a fictional figure - a name given to something that does not have a "being" - . It's easier to blame something/someone else for everything going wrong in your life than to actually look within yourself and see where you went wrong and what you can do to change that. It's easier to say, she got cancer because she didn't live by the bible, it's her punishment.

I strongely believe that every action we take has a reaction, be it "good" or "bad". The reason I feel that everything does happen for a reason is quite simple.

I as a young child was abused well into my adolescent life, I don't blame "satan", nor do I blame a deity, I blame the one who did it, my dad. It was his choice and his action, not mine. But, while this scarred me for life, it has also contributed to who I am today, while I may not like every aspect of myself; I certainly do feel that I have done ok so far.

So my question is... if all pain is caused by satan, why do children of 2 or 3 get abused? Surely this can't win "souls" for satan, since it's supposed to "win" you for it.

[tigen28 0]

Hi moonwitch, first off, I would like to share my joy that you turn out ok. As for your question, i would really be interesting in your explaining it more, like what do you mean when you say "win you for it"I might not be answering anything directly here, but I would like to have a say. Before i read any replies, i already made up my mind that God is not to blame. My reasoning: Everyone has his/her own will, no one is a puppet.However, I do not totally accused all the guilt to the wrongdoers. Sometimes, maybe many times (i'm not sure with the statistics, so..), the environment that the wrongdoers were brought up in do not nuture the children the right way. A child may lack love and grow accustomed to violence, abuse, drugs, etc. and grow up to be bad parents themselves.Therefore i think the wrongdoers are to be blamed themselves or the bad people who intentionally provided a bad environment for a child to grow into wrongdoers. Either way, we can't blame Satan or God because they are internal forces, like our conscience; so if we fail to strengthen our will to do the right think, we ourselves are to blame.

[ManOfSTEEL 0]

Does anybody know?  I do.  Many people are led astray because they don't understand that it is not God who causes the pain of this world, but satan.  They also believe that God let satan take control.  Let me explain.  In the beginning, before creation, there was a war in heaven where satan took a third of th angels and fought Jesus.  Jesus won.  It is here, that satan said God is unfair.  So here is where God gives satan a chance to prove that before the whole universe.  After creation Adam disobeyed God and ate a fruit that was not allowed to be eaten.  I believe this tree was put there as a test.  Adam ate after temptation from eve and satan, who had origanally tempted eve.  Stan caused the first pain and suffering.  Now God could strike satan down, but satan would then make good on his claim that God is unfair to him.  So he lets him continue his evil deeds.  At the end of time, when we are taken to heaven, ALL will know who is fair.  Any arguments?

172120[/snapback]

Well first time to hear that story, anyway there is no way to blame what ever...

 

If there is someone to blame for any reason it is you, ourself not GOD.

 

GOD sometimes gives as a trials to test our faith but this has a good reasons, God knows everything which is good for us, God knows everything even the number of your hair...

 

If you blame God, you must first ask your self why?

 

There is no way to blame God ever... God is GOOD, God is Great and GOD is FAIR....

[midnightvamp 1]

I really can't say one way or another whose fault it is, because in all honesty, I don't know. I can tell you what I do believe and what I don't though...I believe that everyone has a free will and will do whatever it is that they please, unless someone or something prevents them from doing it.I'm not sure whether or not to believe in God or Satan, because up to this point in my life, neither one has decided to prove to me that they do indeed exist, and I'm not the kind of person that can go on blind faith.Maybe they will curse me to eternal damnation the day I die, maybe not. Or perhaps they will even come to me in some form that I can believe and fill me in on why things are the way they are. Even if they do, no one will probably believe me anyway when I try to tell them what I do know.So, I think everyone is to blame for any wrong actions that they perform, but I do also agree about how if you had grown up to certain morals, it may not be completely your fault, but you do have to take some responsibity for your actions.Some things like disease and famine, can be helped and some can be cured, but they can be blamed on nature, or people, or god, or whoever you want to blame to put a face on, so we think we can fight it. Somethings out there like famine, could be eradicated, but because of our inaction, it isn't. And I even take in some of the blame for it.Don't get me wrong, in small ways, I have tried to help, but I still feel like I could do more. And when I think of disease, so many of them have cures, but we won't help cure millions of people because they can't afford it.Again, this could be blamed on a great many things, but I think that if people put the effort into curing the diseases that have cures, and finding cures for the ones that don't, that they put into things like television and playstations, we could cure anything that came our way.But, I too, am too blame for some of it, because I sit infront of my television, enjoying my nice and happy life, while people are suffering horribly around the world. I feel bad, and do little things to help now and then, but could be doing so much more.So, I don't know who to blame for the bad things that happen, but being the kind of person that I am, I tend to not blame beings that I don't even know if they exist, and rest the blame on the people who could stop committing the bad acts, or the people who could stop the bad acts from occuring.

[alive 0]

Hi, I'm not interested in blaming a certain religion, or blaming any one or name - what happens in this world happens for a reason, and that reason is that we did it. Let's look at an example - World War II:+ Some people say that God must have hated Japan that's why the bomb was dropped, others say it was satan, other's say that it was pure evil on the U.S's part. The fact is that it was a military target. Satan didn't plan the entire mission, and I don't believe that God - a creator of worlds would do such a thing. The bottom line is that Japan was killing the US, and the US didn't want to loose any more of their soliders. It was between people, not forces (evil forces or pure forces). It was one man's choice to drop the A-Bomb, and his decision caused so many deaths. It's what happens in the long run that's makes the difference... Think about it - the A-Bomb killed thousands of people in a heart beat, but how many people would have been killed as a result of Japan being a military target? Millions of civilians would have died in 'regular' military bombings, millions of Japanese soldiers would have died along side millions of US soldiers. We also now know that the A-Bomb can act as a deterent for countries that impose violence. We are only human - we are only animals. All animals will make mistakes. We learn from our mistakes. Everything has a knock on effect - things happen, sometimes things that shouldn't be done are done, it's as simple as that. It's the way the world works, it's the way we work as human beings. God and Satan have nothing to do with it as far as I am concerned, it is us that create these things, and it is us that live with the concecenses. So no, I don't blame God and no, I don't blame Satan, I blame us, it's our mistakes. No one is perfect. Thankyou For Your Time, Sean Webber.

[guangdian 0]

he should been.because he closed the door to others then opend the door to thembut he closed all my door.i'm just be going thrusted.

[clagnol 0]

Moonwitch, when you say you're a witch, does that mean you are an adherent of Wicca? It is often taken for granted, but there are many kinds of self-described witches. I'm interested to hear more about your religious beliefs. Perhaps you would start a thread, giving your own interpretation of Wicca [or whatever]?As for the original question of this thread: my own world-view emphasizes the role of individual responsibility in one's life. It is up to you to make the best of the situation into which you were birthed. It is true that extreme poverty doesn't allow many chances to rise above the suffering, but I can tell you that this suffering is not preordained nor inescapable, sociological principles of class notwithstanding.I have looked for God and found my gaze unreturned. I see no reason to blame It for anything, aside from negligence.

[wakelim 0]

Ok, how can Jesus win a war when he's not even born? Because before the creation of what we call Earth, there was no Jesus. Because he was born in the year 0AD. There were maaaaany millions of years before that, before his birth.

Well, if you do believe that Jesus was the Son of God, which the original story suggests, then he has been alive since the beginning of time, and that 0 AD-33AD were the 33 years he spent on this planet, while still existing outside of that time period in heaven.

 

I just can't shake the feeling that it's so easy to just blame satan, who to me is a fictional figure - a name given to something that does not have a "being" - . It's easier to blame something/someone else for everything going wrong in your life than to actually look within yourself and see where you went wrong and what you can do to change that. It's easier to say, she got cancer because she didn't live by the bible, it's her punishment.

Without being disrespectful myself, the strangeness or supernaturability of something or somebody doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I'll admit that it is quite a challenging theory with the whole Satan lark, as it's easier to think that all evil or nasitness comes from humans, as some of it does, but the origin, I believe, comes from Satan.

 

Also note, by the way, that the modern depiction of Satan has been twisted by modern society and that the real Satan will probably not have horns.

 

Anyway, to get back on track, I don't believe that suffering is God's fault at all. People say "If God really existed then there wouldn't be any suffering in the world". Consider suffering for a minute. If you look hard enough then a good proportion would lead back to humans . Take poverty as an example. Why are so many millions of Africans and other people all over the world dying unjustly? Because rich humans have taken the natural produce of the countries and sell it on for profit, leaving the rest of the population in a bad, but not dreadful state. But, with advances in technology, Western humans now enjoy and outrageously good standard of living better than any Roman Emporer or Egyptian Phaorah with double glazing etc. The poorer Africans in the worse climates get in a worse condition compared to us because they cannot afford this standard of living because medicine etc. is too expensive. They are also uneducated, resulting in a permanant problem due to the inability to raise themselves out of poverty.

 

All of this results from human greed. Look at war, it is the result of human's inability to get along. Is that God's fault?

 

But why do people die of cancer? Why do volcanoes need to erupt? This is going to sound quite harsh, but humans need to die. This planet cannot physically produce resources for a race that doesn't die, but continues to reproduce. Illness, natural disasters etc. are ways of bringing the population down so that humans can continue in the long-term.

 

I've tried to cover most things. Would be interested to hear what people think about this.

[dontmaimyourself 0]

Before I start I really should tell you that I don't personally believe in a 'God', just so you know where I'm comming from on this. I really think it is (I can't think of another way to put this, but please note I do not mean to offend anyone) foolish to look for blame in things like natural disasters and the like, I believe they just happen, its no ones fault, they are just one of the many risks of being alive. I see very little point in 'satan' who from my point of view doesn't exist. that is just my personal belief and I will always respect the views and oppinions of others and will respect all religions. I would just prefer they didn't try to 'enlighten' me (mentioning no specific religions of courss but I'm sure you all have experianced this) p.s. I know not all religions do this, it is just a small few who believe it is their job to make the rest of the world think the same as them. p.p.s sorry that turned into a bit of a rant agianst religion.

[biscuitrat 0]

Why are these posts always directed at the Christian majority? Quite a few religions and beliefs don't have a good or a bad - they just have a guardian of some form. I believe that whatever goes bad in my life is the fault of either myself or the people that caused it to go astray. Like I said before, you're the only one who has the power to accept your life in a certain way and set yourself for the right course. No matter who you run into and no matter who tries to stop you, you're the only one who's going anywhere. There is no spiritual entity that forces you to do certain things. Of course, we still use cliches like "heaven-sent" and whatever, but all that means is that there ws a coincidence - the right place at the right time, if you will.Also, I'm gonna agree with moonwitch - how can you blame diseases, warfare, famine, drought, and the millions of other problems of our world on a deity that may or may not exist to all of us? Why would any benevolent deity leave a world in such a state and do nothing to help it? It's in their power, isn't it? So why isn't anything being accomplished?

[wakelim 0]

Why would any benevolent deity leave a world in such a state and do nothing to help it? It's in their power, isn't it? So why isn't anything being accomplished?

I'll just add a small off-topic point about free-will here. Christianity clearly states that humans are rubbish (at least, in comparison to God, which if you go to the right places I'm sure you'll understand. Every human makes mistakes. God made a perfect world - the Garden of Eden. If you know how the story goes, Adam and Eve messed things up and humans were forced to live in a non-perfect (but still quite nice) world away from God. Humans were no longer holy enough to con-exist with God entirely. So, we have lived in this world for x million years and polluted it further with concrete, pollusion etc. Heaven is the place where God has created a place free from suffering etc., but you have to get there first. God has given us this world and our lives to do with whatever we want. This results in a choice and makes us living beings instead of robots programmed to worship and serve God blindly. God could invade our world and make everything perfect, but it would make all choice, personality, thoughts and freedom non-existant.

 

Well, enough Christian theology for one post. biscuitrat, I don't talk about other religions because I genuinely don't have a clue about them. I have had alot more church teaching, both in church and school than any other religion and therefore understand Christian views about suffering better. I really don't know what a Muslim, Sikh, Atheist, Jedi (it's on the UK cencus form) would answer to this. Any of the above please feel free to correct me here.

 

This is my understanding of suffering on other religions:

 

Hinduism - What goes around comes around, Karma. If you are unjust etc. you will be reborn as something nasty.

 

Buddhism - Roughly the same, but without the existance of spirits, God etc.

 

Well, you can tell my Religion lessons really paid off .

 

Can I also make a last point about belief about God and suffering? You can 1)Decide not to believe in God and decide suffering comes from other sources. 2) Decide to believe in God and decide that suffering comes from Satan/humans. I would say that it's foolish (forgive me if I offend here) to decide that God exists and that He's mean. It's not all that logical. Why would God create humans if He didn't love them and didn't carer for them? Why would He spend his time and energy trying to get them to follow Him if it wasn't for the best? If God created humans and meets with them throughout time (see OT) them why would He create pain for them. The pain resonates from human greed at the end of the day.i

[Milovoriel 0]

sometimes life is so awful and you can't find a specific person to blame (ie mass deaths due to acts of nature) .... you have to do something with your grief and anger so you blame a "God" , a so called "higher being" .... because in this instance who else can you blame? ....

 

and by our action or inaction I believe we're are all responsible for someones suffering at some point .... blaming a "God" is just shifting that responsibility so we don't have to deal with guilt ....

 

[Acidify 0]

I still and always will believe in what I do.The devil is to blame and its the 100% truth.Right now if you noticed or not there is a war between good and evil.The devil put all those thoughts and denys in your mind so he can win your soul.You are crazy if you think that there has to be a beginning to gods life and a end when there is a neverending solar system and you have to be nuts if you think there isnt high being and that we are the only life that exist.You are stupid if you think everything was created by trash and you dont believe in god.you dont even know how animals or human beings started.God created them and you and I know there is no other way to explain how beings were created.Some scientist says we transformed from trash or other animals but where did the trash or animals come from.If you think its possible that they have no beginning to the trash that created us then why not god and if you think that have a beginning who created them.Some one had to start the trash if theres no such thing as no beginning.Then people say all kind of crazy stuff about god.A anti christ is here and we are living in out last days.A lot of people will go to hell and be fooled by this anti christ.Most of the people that hate god or dont believe in him never read the bible.or seen demons or anything related to the devil because the devil dont attack people that he already has going to hell.If you take time to read the bible and learn about him before you say he doesnt exist.And there is 1 sin you can be forgiven for and thats say god doesnt exist and I bet no one in here knew that.You dont have to go to church or anything,just go to the dollar store and read some of the old and new testiments of the bible.Thats what will explain all your question because a forum cant explain it all.The bible probly cant etheir but a lot of things are unexplained thats not related to god.

[Joshua 0]

I definitely liked Wakelim's comments, just read the first chapter of John to see that Christ existed from the dawn of creation. In the first chapter of Revelation He describes Himself as "Alpha and Omega" or the beginning and the end, the first and the last. And Christ was never "born" in the sense we think of, although I've discussed this several times before on these forums, like here: http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/

 

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

Anyway, the Bible says that God made everything good and made man to enjoy a personal relationship with Him. God blessed man abundantly but when man turned His back on God and His commands God was forced to punish man for his disobedience. Through our disobedience death came into the world:

 

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

 

 

Here's an excerpt from "More Then A Carpenter" by Josh McDowell", I think he describes it VERY well:

 

    A businessman said to me, "Evidently you have proven that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.  Aren't there other ways also to a relationship with God apart from Jesus?"

    The above comments are indicative of many people's questions today about why one has to trust Jesus as Savior and Lord in order to have a relationship with God and experience the forgiveness of sin.  I answered the student by saying that many people don't understand the nature of God.  Usually the question is "How can a loving God allow a sinful individual go to hell?"  I would ask, "How can a holy, just, righteous God allow a sinful individual into his presence?"  A misunderstanding of the basic nature and charachter of God has been the cause of so many theological and ethical problems.  Most people understand God to be a loving God and they don't go any further.  The problem is that God is not only a God of love.  He is also a righteous, just, and holy God. 

    We basically know God through his attributes.  An attribute is not a part of God.  I used to think that if I took all the attributes of God-holiness, love, justice, righteousness-and added them up, the sum total would equal God.  Well, that's not God but something that is true of God.  For example, when we say God is love, we don't mean that a part of God is love, but that love is something that is true of God.  When God loves he is simply being himself.

    Here is a problem that developed as a result of humanity entering into sin.  God in eternity past decided to create man woman.  Basically I believe that the Bible indicates he created man and woman in order to share his love and glory with them.  But when Adam and Eve rebelled and went their own individual ways, sin entered the human race.  At that point individuals became sinful or separated from God.  This is the "predicament" that God found himself in.  He created men and women to share his glory with them, yet they spurned his counsel and command and chose to sin.  And so he approached them with his love to save them.  But because he is not only a loving God, but a holy, just, righteous God, his very nature would destroy any sinful individual.  The Bible says, "For the wages of sin is death."  So, you might say, God had a problem.

    Within the Godhead-God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit-a decision was made.  Jesus, God the Son, would take upon himself human flesh.  He would become the God-man.  This is described in John 1 where it says that the Word became flesh and tabernacled or dwelt among us.  And also in Philippians 2 where it says that Christ Jesus emptied himself and took on the form of a man.

    Jesus was the God-man.  He was just as much man as if he had never been God and just as much God as if he had never been man.  By his own choice he lived a sinless life, wholly obeying the Father.  The biblical declaration that "the wages of sin is death" did not apply to him.  Because he was not only finite man but infinite God, he had the infinite capacity to take upon himself the sins of the world.  When he went to the cross almost 2000 years ago, a holy, just, righteous God poured out his wrath upon his Son.  And when Jesus said, "It is finished," the just, righteous nature of God was satisfied.  You could say that at that point God was "set free" to deal with humanity in love without having to destroy a sinful individual, because through Jesus' death on the cross, God's righteous nature was satisfied.

    Often I ask people the question, "For whom did Jesus die?" and usually they reply, "For me" or "For the world."  And I'll say, "Yes, that's right, but for whom else did Jesus die?" and usually they'll say, "Why, I don't know."  I reply, "For God the Father."  You see, Christ not only died for us but he also died for the Father.  This is described in Romans 3 where it talks about propitiation.  Propitiation basically means satisfaction of a requirement.  And when Jesus died on the cross, he not only died for us but he died to meet the holy and just requirements of the basic nature of God.