Sharing Music Online To what extent is it legal?

[pyost 0]

I will soon be adding a message board to my web site, which deals with several British bands. Because of that, I would also like to have a "Multimedia" area on my forums, where members would be able to share download links - of course, nothing would be hosted on my server.

 

However, that's where I encounter certain problems. I could swear that nothing like that was legal, but I might be wrong. I have found numerous big forums (and when I say big, I mean over 20,000 members) that also have this. Now, if it were illegal, somebody would have stopped them by now, right? Which brings me to the question I have:

 

According to the law, what are we allowed to share, when it comes to download links only? I know songs from the albums are out of the question, but what about live recordings, b-sides and so on?

[WeaponX 0]

Not sure about your location, but I think even sharing live recordings and b-sides are not legal. Live recordings might have two sides to it but I know some performances that are released on DVDs after a short while, so that means they will be making money out of it. Anything that interferes with these guys making a buck out of it seems to call for legal action.I saw some sites that just provide links to these downloads and they were issued some kind of summons. These were BitTorrent links from what I remember too...

[twitch 0]

Live-recordings, b-sides, etc are still copyright. It's actually illegal to record music at concerts for purposes other than personal use. The same with recording movies in the cinema.Providing links to downloads is a grey area. Although you are not giving the pirated data directly, you are 'endorsing' it. I would be careful when going into this area.

[Jeigh1405241495 0]

You can probably find a legal group in your area that would be able to provide the answer for you, or hit up one of the bigger non-profit organizations that work in technology legal fields and ask them. As twitch said, the legalities around providing links are a gray area but there are tonnes of sites that do this. On the other hand providing any music created and owned by other artists is probably going too far.

[pyost 0]

OK, so there is a slight possibility that sharing links to a certain extent is allowed. Also, which country's laws do apply to a web site? Where the server is hosted, where I am from, or something else?

[twitch 0]

The country of origin. However, there are certain laws that affect the user.I think it would be much better if you didn't bother. Unless the directory is aimed at open-source/royalty free music or otherwise agreeably free-share.Alternatively, make sure all links point to a site that requires payment for the song, instead of direct download.

[pyost 0]

Well, it's not of such great importance, but would certainly help attract visitors. I'll do some more research on how other sites do it, and I'll post if I find something useful.

[twitch 0]

Other sites often run the risk of their ISP shutting them down to linking/affiliating with warez/illegal music/video transfer.There are better ways of attracting the visitors pyost. Remember, it's like a business. You need to plan and forecast. Evaluate current systems and adapt.

[Markymark2 0]

Well now youve fallen down the rabbit hole but just how far does it go down?

This is the biggest grey area on the net atm..

Its soo hard to say about links to content posted by others, by doing this you are hiding behind the statement "i didnt upload it and I didnt rip it"

Your ISP or hoster will hide behind the statement "we provide the access to the net..not what the customer does with it." and the hoster will say " by providing links the user has not broken our TOS because thier is no copywrite material on our servers"

Let me explain a recent case in the UK..
A guy has a soccer blog, really great site with loads or orginal content all about the UK Premiership football.
He has a section on site for funny videos and great goals scored this week as well as an archive of these.
These are links to Google Video, YouTube etc and its content he has searched for and NOT uploaded himself.

In the UK ALL showing of the Premiership is owned by SKY who in turn is owned by FOX who in turn is owned by My Burns himself!! Rupert Murdoch (boo hiss!!) and you have to have a SKY package to view any football.
BBC and other chans do show football but its not live and also its a deal made with SKY to broadcast this.

So Google, Youtube, whatever is breaking the deal that SKY have with the Premiership.So its THEM that are breaking copyright law NOT the owner or HOSTER of the site and ofc not the ISP.

A couple of weeks ago the guy writing the site got a really heavy letter from SKY and FOX's lawyers giving him a STOP now order-this means they give you 24 hours to take down ANY content they are not happy with from the website.They also threatened I think it was 25K UK pounds fine if he didnt comply.
The same letter went to his ISP and to Google and Youtube.

The guy fought back and put them straight that HYPERLINKS are not content!
Youtube buckled and tore down SOOO many posts to do with the Premiership (think it was about 5000 posts) and targetted the links from this guys site especially.

I guess this tells the story about music also, in a way you are NOT breaking the rules by linking to pages within someone elses site, but say if you embedd the videos or link to mp3 in a player on YOUR site then you are breaking the rules directly, because the content is coming from somewhere else but is accessed on YOUR site.

I would say to you Pyost..make sure the stuff is NOT here but elsewhere Linking to stuff is NOT against the Asta and Trap TOS.
Say if Opaque got an email from a music company complaining about you then this section of the TOS could come into force against you..

This is from the Asta TOS..

We may remove any material that, in our sole discretion, may be illegal or may subject us to liability

Its a good TOS cos it leaves Asta and Trap to decide what they deem illeagle and if they got a letter from a company complaining or forcing liability then they could I guess suspend you untill you removed the mentioned articles.


I hope this helps clear this up and GOOD LUCK with your site mate

Marky!

[pyost 0]

Phew.. Complicated stuff, so many "security holes"

 

make sure the stuff is NOT here but elsewhere

That was never an option, since I would not risk that much no matter what.

 

By the way, I never said the site is on Xisto

But it is.. I really don't want to do anything stupid, at least not while I'm hosting it here. When/If I move..

 

By the way, here's an extract from the biggest Radiohead site concerning various multimedia:

 

Can you get caught and be sued for downloading anything? Does Radiohead care if people download bootlegs?

 

This is not legal advice!

 

Basically, someone recording a concert of a band somehow records, and therefore doublicates without allowance, copyrighted material. Say, if the location where the concert was held explicitly forbade an audio recording, the recorder can be made liable if caught.

 

Or if you try to sell downloaded bootlegs, not only would it be a risky business but also unfair.

 

But as someone who will privately consume said bootleg and doesn't necessarily share it with others, I've heard that not downloading but actually sharing is a key issue, that should be ok - currently.

 

Radiohead probably love the fact that you download live recordings of their music. However, their record company and the people who own the copyright may well feel differently.

Frankly, I didn't quite understand what they are saying, but nobody's causing them trouble, and they've being doing this for years!

[Markymark2 0]

Some of you know this already but I am a DJ and also used to make and promote parties and I was working with a huge UK party organisation/record label.

So I would hire venues and Djs/bands and make the website and flyers and book hotels/flights equipment and then also on the night DJ before the main acts.

The guys I worked with are some of the biggest in the business and release thier own DJ mix Cds on the record label.
I worked with artists such as Deep Dish, Dave Seaman, Sasha, Hybrid etc etc and thier Dj sets sell a lot of copies and make a lot of money.
When they make they they have an absolute nightmare getting permission from different artists/ and or record companies.

Imagine a DJ has been playing around in a club and making some really amazing mixes in a sequence and it they really lead one track into the other...They go into the studio to record the mix and then they are told that XXX records will not give us permission to use that track I am sorry..
So basically he has to start playing around again trying to fit the tunes around the missing one..or then choose a new track that again has to be cleared by the artist and or record company.

Sowhat happens if I jack my laptop into the "final" mixer and leave it recording a wav file of the DJ thats playing ? how does that work out? (this would be the same as a recording a band live in the eyes of the law)

Ok the DJ that your recording should have a PPL Licence..(Phonographic Performance Ltd this is for the UK and for EU but there are links to many different countries in the world) as a performer..it could be a multi site licence or one venue only licence.
Then the Venue itself would have to have a licence to cover them for "Live Performance" this includes bands and DJs..

In that licence it will state that NO recording devices are allowed on the premises during a performance..and it will list ALL types of recording devices.. have you ever read the back of a ticket from a big venue? it will state this as well as not bringing in own drink and food etc..
In any venue you can actually ask at the desk (or should be able to) to see thier site licence.

Any venue that doesnt have one faces closure and a fine.

So any live recording is breaking the law.

Also if you think about a band performing live a brand new track thats not been recorded yet..or imagine a live jazz free form concert..thats not covered by a copyright? cos nothing like this exists as a recording...
The fact is NO! this is covered by the Venue licence so you are breaking the law...

So if you redistribute this recording..your breaking the law even more heavly unless you have written prior concent from the band..
If your selling it..your invringing the laws to a greater degree again.

So in respect to the Radiohead site...yes this is illeagle unless a copy of the letter from the band is available to the PPL and us as users of the site can see and they have given prior consent.

"Frankly, I didn't quite understand what they are saying, but nobody's causing them trouble, and they've being doing this for years"

These guys are probably unknown to the band or record company involved as well as the PPL, it would probably take one person to complain to the PPL about copyright material on the site and it would be given a cease and desist order to remove the content or face court action.
And would you belive on the the PPL site theres actually a banner button to report people.

So how do you get caught?

I have actually been in a club on a few occasions when..

1. The people from the UK or Netherlands council that cover the venue have turned up with Decibel meters to measure the sound output.You can get fined for breaking the limits;)I know cos one time I got a warning in writing that I was too loud!! Im kinda proud of it

2. The PPL hitsquad arrived and looked at everyones licence that was performing that night or took names down and addresses..

Both times the police were with these guys!!!they arrange hitsquads to go ouy to popular areas of cities with bars and clubs and hit them all on one night with police protection to get them into and around the club or bar.

I actually know a DJ who when going through customs in the Netherlands had every single record bag and CD case taken apart and he had some burned discs with him..he could actually prove that he owned the 12inch back home but not at this moment..he had them all confiscated and he had to sign papers which would lead to a fine if he didnt prove in 30 days the proof of purchase..


These days I use a "Digital set of Decks" to play on, this involves a laptop and a midi mixer and mp3/wavs stored on my HD..I sometimes use DVDS with lots of mp3s on also if i am short on HD space.


This has lead to a whole new ballgame in copyright issues...

The PPL have made a totally new section to the law now to govern mps and Digital DJs..
You wont belive the implications of this!!!

So I have to buy a licence for 200 pound a year..I am NOT allowed to record ANYTHING only play..so for me this is a killer cos I like to record really tight mixes of two tunes together and play them live..I break the law each time i do this now..I break the law to a higher degree by making an hour set that I give out on CDs I burned myself as a demo, same if I allow people to copy it.

I have bought mp3s years ago legally and 12 inches or Cds I own and ripped?and these are NOT covered by this Licence!!! only mp3s 12 inches or Cds bought since by licence was granted..!!!!! FFS can you imagine that????
I am not allowed to backup tracks to DVD and play them live back again!!! I am allowed to make ONE back up of each track and hold that on HD only!!!

So according to this anyone that has ever played recorded music to the public has to have a licence and throw away thier whole music collection and start legally buying it all again even though you legally own it anyway...but heres the kicker!! you dont own it!! you own a licence to play it for your PERSONAL use..This is why any bar, factory,shop, hairdresser, office etc has to have a licence to play music to the public because they make a distinction between public and private use for everything covered by copyright.
Imagine a house party or BBQ..if theres more than 20 people present guess what? U NEED A LICENCE!!

So how are they enforcing this?? DRM is thier answer!!!
As a Digital DJ I have to use thier DRM and let them have access to my computer at anytime.

Also if I am on tour and purchase tracks legally these are NOT licenced untill PPL check out my database of tracks and then approve them in the country I live in.

I also have to provide at any time a list of venues I have played and the tracklists that I played at that venue!! so they can check the venue has a licence and the artists played are licenced also.
So I get sued because the venue is not uptodate with thier licence or I play a tune from someone that doesnt have a record deal..and hasnt got a licence for thier work yet.
So playing a tune I made myself or a remix I have made..this is against the law if I havnt got a licence.

Internet Radio.
Now here again is a whole new ballgame..If I am on a net radio station even for two hours I have to apply for a special licence..the site itself will have to have a pretty extensive licence also.

Let me explain the licence for net radio further..

You have to pay a royalty fee for each individual stream of each individual Sound Recording.

The cost of streaming a single Sound Recording to a single user is currently ÂŁ0.000515 (0.0515 pence). So if you were to stream 14 Sound Recordings in one hour to one user you would expect to pay a royalty fee of ÂŁ0.00721 (0.7 pence).

Also somehow you have to work out BEFORE you apply for the licence the amount of traffic your expecting and PAY for it in advance!! how MAD is that?

So a start up netradio has to pay a lot of money upfront cos if they dont they have to pay more and a fine if they get thier prediction of listeners wrong!!
Also would you belive this!! you are NOT covered if a user can skip forward or START and PAUSE the stream!! WTF!!! so that rules 99% of net radios for a start.
You are NOT covered if you have interactive ranking or voting that determines the playlist.
So your users cant vote thing to the top of the playlist.
If you copy the tracks onto a central database of tracks..you will pay an extra 15% ontop of the fee per hour of user listening time.
Not all countries in the world are covered by this law..so guess what? its up to YOU to deny them access to the stream!!
So in effect you will have to build some kinda IP filter for the countries that do not subscribe to this.

So with ALL of these restrictions in place, as a DJ you have to ask yourself this question..is it worth ever buying a licence? isnt it going to be easier to wait for the PPL to catch me?

Hope this sheds some light on mp3s and broadcasting or redistributing them..I did a bit of research for this post and was a bit shocked at all the implications of it!!

Marky;)

[pyost 0]

Wow That's really a long answer (I wonder how much credits you got ). I imagine all of this is a big problem not just for you, but all DJs. But I guess you earn more than you spend, right? :PSo, to sum up, there is no way something like this would be legal And what about covers, when you play some band's song by yourself, or with your band? Does copyright disallow that, too?

[Markymark2 0]

Hehe it was the longest post I ever did here and I got 10 credits for i think!! Alomost a tuturial on Music law there

Yesterday I forgot to add a section also which is very approriate to what your trying to do...



In the Netherlands in the summer a site called zoekmp3.nl (lookformp3) was hit hard in court by BREIN which is kind of the copyright police for The Netherlands.They were forced to close down and faced 10K Euros each day they were back online.

What was thier crime? doing what you want to do..to "deeplink" to content not on your server and ofc in this sites case it was whole cds live sets etc of copyright material.

The judges did not buy the "Im only providing links to content elsewhere" line that every torrent/warez site hides behind.

BREIN had taken them to court in 2004 and zoekmp3.nl won and the judges allowed thier defence.

This was the appeal by BREIN and they won allowing similar rulings in the rest of the EU cos lawyers seem to hop rulings across borders very fast these days in Euroland!! so expect to see more of these cases in more countries.



A bit off topic but a site i REALLY want shut down is http://blogs.allofmp3.ru/ these guys are Russian mafia guys trying to fool people that they are legally downloading mp3s.

What they are expoliting is the fact that Russia has no copyright law as such..So they say in their defence that Ok well the servers are all located in Russia, its legal here and its a legal business model in Russia.



So as a user according to thier shaky defence your actling legally by downloading it to another country cos the payment and the mp3s themselves are in Russia.



In Russia PPL means nothing! so they dont pay ONE CENT to any band/artist etc..

So in effect they go on Amazon buy up ONE copy of each new Cd..Rip it and then store it on thier servers and them sell off to thousands of people.



Imagine thier business overheads!! I would imagine about 2-3 servers and a test server..half a rented rack in a datacenter in Moscow..a nice big fat connection...about $300 Amazon bill to pay..and 2-3 people to maintain the site and 1-2 to rip cds..

These guys have made millions from this alas ;(((



Ok then Back to the Question...



Cover Versions..Ok well again it comes down to licence and control of copyright..

Ive heard tales of places with a PPL licence or similar for Live Performance being busted cos a band played a cover version and it wasnt covered in the Venues Performing Licence..even tho the band were covered cos they paid more to be able to perform covers..



So if you get paid in anyway for performing and you include a cover..legally you should get a licence to play that tune.



If you are going to record covers then you dig further into the rabbit hole..



Ok its like this..if you do not gain any profit at all "technically" you are allowed to do it..Ive seen small bands sell T shirts for 10 pounds and give a FREE CD with the T shirt..so NO money is changing hands for the CD..Clever )



So what if I want to make profit from it ? or put the cover track on a cd with tracks I have written and performed myself?

Ok you will need a "Mechanical Licence" and this is basically permission by the copyright holder..most of the times these days the record company..to record it..it gets odd if its a shared ownership copyright..Ie the band wrote it together and now dont exist as a band any more.

As I belive the law its this..you would have to chase down each person written down with a writing or producing credit listed and get each of them to give thier permission for you to earn money off thier creation.



In the UK I have seen an ABBA tribute band who played covers but not...they didnt pay for a licence for ALL of the tunes only some..so they changed the tune and the words slightly to some really well known tunes from ABBA..all the crowd were singing along to the real tune and screwing up thier faces..they didnt understand why.



So like last nights posts about linking and Djing ..playing covers is full of pitfalls and traps you can fall down ;(



Hope this helps!!



Marky;)

[beatgammit 0]

In my area, there are only restrictions on copyrighted content. If you perform live under a contract, you should read this contract to see whether they have rights to the performance. Music that you produce is legal to distribute, but if you produce it under a record lable, you must have permission (because the music is no longer yours). I believe you can let people listen to music, but not download music, with very little in the way of copyright infringement, but I would make sure with the owners of the music to be sure.All in all, if you don't own it, you can't share it (legally).

[iGuest 3]

I'm going to probably be off topic a bit, but I was not allowed to take someone's music and add my music into it. Basically I took old rock songs and added my own guitar sound to it, because back then, guitaring sounded like a backup more than a main focus and I wanted to show my guitar playing and also to show that old music then can be modernised.Now I know because all I was doing was adding my guitaring to it, it's not really original but my main focus was not to rip off an artist, nor was I profitting by this, I was just showing my passion in playing guitar and that was all. I use to be in a band, we had original music but when you have classic rock that you think could be improved why can't you do this and share it?I just want people to be inspired by my playing and to learn from what I can show them. Another thing being hit is guitar tabs, your own version of how you think a song is played also can be infringement so now you can't even imitate bands, what's the world coming to, we learn from the past and improve on that, but we can't even do this. I know I would not care if musicians were inspired by my sound and tried copying it, I'd be proud if someone actually looked up to me and wanted to follow my style of playing.Cheers,MC