Death

[rejected 0]

I don't know if this belongs here, I'm not sure what fits under the category of "self-realization." I have spent the past few years of my life fixated on death. I constantly wondered what happens when someone dies. The following is my *opinion* on dying:Do you know what it was like before you were born? That is what it will be like when you die. The only purpose to life is to live while you can. This is called existential nihilism. Dying may be the most peaceful thing that could ever happen to anyone. Living has no intrinsic meaning. It's all about being here now.

[truefusion 3]

Do you know what it was like before you were born? That is what it will be like when you die.

Do you know what refutes this? Those who do remember about the time before they were born, also known as reincarnation or having a past life.

 

But let us touch more on the implications of your statement. There are many things that it brings up, which mostly follows from the others, and what it allows. For one, we could emphasize the word "born." Did we exist before we were born? If born means coming out of the womb, then most certainly we existed before we were born. We did not have any previous memory before we were born and it will be like that after we die, you say? What does that mean? It means it allows for existence after death except without any previous memory. So then life doesn't end at death. If life doesn't end at death, then there is obviously some kind of dualism going on here, where the conscious or spirit is separate from the body and only the body dies.

 

So what if you chose to define "born" as "before you were ever conceived"? In order to even ask such a question with such a presumption you would have to, again, assume pre-existence. Assuming pre-existence, again, allows for the same kind of dualism as the kind that was already mentioned, which, again, means life after death. Therefore, in either case, what is your argument? Instead, now, you are perhaps left to rethink things about death and existence, perhaps even on why these things exist. So, i shall ask you, Is there life after death?

[anwiii 17]

personally, i don't think you can think or talk about death without thinking and talking about life as the opposite is true too. if you only think about life or only think about death, then you are looking at the smaller picture since they both belong to a bigger picture and part of a cycle. death is just part of the bigger picture. maybe you should start thinking about the bigger picture for your answers because if you start defining death or even define life as "to live while you can". that is pretty vague. of course you are right. life is there for us to live. but what is living? and what does it have to do with the bigger picture. this cycle we all are born in to on this earth. when you start trying to find answers. think about what you know. then compare it to what you don't know. now assume the possibilities without assuming anything. the earth was either flat or round at one time. nobody knew. nobody even knew where the heck they were because they never traveled to find out. we've come a long way since then but we haven't even touched on where we really are.personally, i think when there is an obvious cycle to anything, there is logic behind it. sometimes we can use our own knowledge to logically explain. but sometimes with a more complex cycle like life and death, our knowledge is limited to any logic we could use to explain such a cycle. sometimes we just have to allow ourselves to be open to experiencing the answers. i mean if you are walking down a road you have never been on before, and it forks in three different directions, how would you know where to go if your eyes were closed. there are signs all around us but but who's going to see them if eyes are closed or if people aren't paying attention or unable to just fit the pieces together like a puzzle.sure, life.....and death....belong to a cycle. but who is to say that those two things are the only things that are a part of the cycle. they are just the most obvious parts of the cycle.i think a good starting point in understanding the cycle we live in which includes life and death, would be to try and understand your own self first. ask yourself what makes you so different than a stranger you pass by on the street.....while also asking yourself what makes you so much the same. you willing to talk to a stranger to find out? because if you can't do that then trying to find answers to more complicated questions would just be out of the question.i am also privileged to know that life and/or death can never be summed up in less than two lines.....

[OpaQue 15]

I think death is a part of "self-realization." process and so its ok to continue the thread here.

 

Do you know what it was like before you were born? That is what it will be like when you die.

I have no idea since I was roughly 1.5 years. Honestly, Thats the faintest memory I could ever dive back in my history of self.

 

The only purpose to life is to live while you can.

I would say, The only purpose to life is to realize the truth about yourself. Forget atoms, molecules, cells, energy etc., but your very connection to the earth from which we were born. We know that the flesh and blood is made up of organic matter and those atoms/molecules/compounds can be re-produced in lab from stem cells. The word stem itself yells out nature. my point is, life has a greater/deeper connection within us and much more than the finest scientifically researched point anywhere within your physical body.

 

Being science students we know, whats in my body is in my reach and is changable. Thats what I define myself as "I" scientifically. Within this same body of ours (which I believe is a temple), I can realize "The Truth" if anywhere, thats within me and I am a part of it eternally. The purpose of life should be something like being free of the dimention called "Time", life and death is a part and parcel of a game/virtual3D like, only that "some say" its an eternal game with infinite lives (or cycles like anwii said), until you realize yourself, you will live for the game. After you realize this (say, you now got "special connection" (i call it God Mode) in you life - basically... you are simply happy), probably you will live for everyone around you. Because you are free of the cycles and you know the cycles, you are just happy to see the cycles. We dont count the ripples on ocean shore - we just sway with the never-ending countless waves and enjoy them being one with it). Now may

 

This is called existential nihilism. Dying may be the most peaceful thing that could ever happen to anyone. Living has no intrinsic meaning. It's all about being here now.

I can relate a bit of what you say and I experience it closely when I go to bed everyday. After a tiring never-ending day, its those last few seconds you know that your back is gonna hit the comfort zone of your precious earned "sleep". For me, I die before I know and when I wake up.... WHOA!!! what time is it. What day is it today. whats the plan of action. :angel:

[rejected 0]

Do you know what refutes this? Those who do remember about the time before they were born, also known as reincarnation or having a past life.

No one remembers the time before they were conceived. It's impossible. People who claim this are plain crazy, scamming you, or are acting this way for some other ridiculous reason. Remembering a past life is ludicrous.

 

But let us touch more on the implications of your statement. There are many things that it brings up, which mostly follows from the others, and what it allows. For one, we could emphasize the word "born." Did we exist before we were born? If born means coming out of the womb, then most certainly we existed before we were born. We did not have any previous memory before we were born and it will be like that after we die, you say? What does that mean? It means it allows for existence after death except without any previous memory. So then life doesn't end at death. If life doesn't end at death, then there is obviously some kind of dualism going on here, where the conscious or spirit is separate from the body and only the body dies.

What I intended to say was conceived. We never did not exist before we were conceived. We won't exist when we die. Life definitely ends at death. Brains are the reason people have rational (and irrational) thoughts. Without brains, people are nothing(which is one reason I am interested in cryonics, but that is something to discuss later). There's no soul, spirit, or entity which is inside of us..

 

So what if you chose to define "born" as "before you were ever conceived"? In order to even ask such a question with such a presumption you would have to, again, assume pre-existence. Assuming pre-existence, again, allows for the same kind of dualism as the kind that was already mentioned, which, again, means life after death. Therefore, in either case, what is your argument? Instead, now, you are perhaps left to rethink things about death and existence, perhaps even on why these things exist. So, i shall ask you, Is there life after death?

When I said to imagine before being conceived, it was only a point to prove that there was nothing.

When one is conceived, they start out as just a cell. No one has ever lived before they were conceived.

Edited March 14, 2010 by rejected (see edit history)

[truefusion 3]

No one remembers the time before they were conceived. It's impossible. People who claim this are plain crazy, scamming you, or are acting this way for some other ridiculous reason. Remembering a past life is ludicrous.

However, as mentioned before, loss of memory is not evidence for not pre-existing. The argument from loss of memory allows for life beyond (i.e. before and after) the physical self. You have to now show that this is not possible, not only assert it.

What I intended to say was conceived. We never did not exist before we were conceived. We won't exist when we die. Life definitely ends at death. Brains are the reason people have rational (and irrational) thoughts. Without brains, people are nothing(which is one reason I am interested in cryonics, but that is something to discuss later). There's no soul, spirit, or entity which is inside of us..

However, you've never died before. You're still living (by the way you define "living," i assume), right? Your presupposition is that life is limited to the physical self (like many i have come across). You could probably argue that you have no reason to go beyond the physical self, but neither have you provided any reason for us not to.

When I said to imagine before being conceived, it was only a point to prove that there was nothing. When one is conceived, they start out as just a cell. No one has ever lived before they were conceived.

There is no denying that no one's physical self has lived before they were conceived, and whether or not people at the stage of development are nothing (due to lack of a brain) i won't say, but, as you have mentioned, you are trying to prove that there is no life beyond the physical self, to which you have only rhetorically asserted.

[rejected 0]

However, as mentioned before, loss of memory is not evidence for not pre-existing. The argument from loss of memory allows for life beyond (i.e. before and after) the physical self. You have to now show that this is not possible, not only assert it.

However, you've never died before. You're still living (by the way you define "living," i assume), right? Your presupposition is that life is limited to the physical self (like many i have come across). You could probably argue that you have no reason to go beyond the physical self, but neither have you provided any reason for us not to.


There is no denying that no one's physical self has lived before they were conceived, and whether or not people at the stage of development are nothing (due to lack of a brain) i won't say, but, as you have mentioned, you are trying to prove that there is no life beyond the physical self, to which you have only rhetorically asserted.

Well, unfortunately there is no way to prove who is right. There's only waiting until we die. But this is my opinion.

[StvenWesley 0]

Well, unfortunately there is no way to prove who is right. There's only waiting until we die. But this is my opinion.

But if we have died, can you still realize yourself? How can you do that? can we trace the spirit after we death?It is still a problem a think. :angel:

[anwiii 17]

No one remembers the time before they were conceived. It's impossible. People who claim this are plain crazy, scamming you, or are acting this way for some other ridiculous reason. Remembering a past life is ludicrous.

tell that to powder. it was a pretty good movie and that was a joke. BUT, i do have to disagree with you. i believe it IS possible to remember past lives and even an afterlife. i don't think we are just made up of the mind and brain to help us think and remember in this lifetime. i believe in a soul that exsists before we are born. i also believe than past life experiences can come out in dreams and other ways. dreams especially. we have an average of 7 dreams a night. times that by 365 = 2,555(per year) x 70(a full life) = 178,850. let's just round it out to 180,000 dreams in a lifetime(and i am going low ball). that is 180,000 times that the brain is trying to tell you something about yourself. but, is it just the brain telling you these things? what if dreams were controlled also by something not physical or what you were "born" with? something you always had before you were even born.

personally, i don't remember crap. but when i try to fit the pieces to the puzzle, something amazing happens. i know that there is life after death which means there has to be death in order for new life. why do i know this? because i know my own self. i know what surounds me. i saw the clues and didn't ignore them. i tried and will keep trying to fit the pieces to the puzzle and yea, i will probably die not knowing crap compared to what i already know right now, but it's enough to know that our bodies are mere shells to exist for a purpose. a higher purpose....and death is nothing to be afraid of or question why. there is something bigger than life and death and you are trying to define existance through life and death. it's the wrong outlook.

like i said before, know your own self. read the signs. pay attention. keep your eyes always open. fit the pieces to the puzzle in the right places. don't assume unless it's to assume the possibilities. if you do that, you will know your true self that is different than everyone....but is also the same as everyone for different reasons.

it's good to question though.....life and death and why we're here. it's always a good thing. it's a start. keep questioning. keep searching. keep paying attention if you haven't already. i am one to say, that you, nor i will ever find all the answers, BUT there is more to life than our physical body. THAT i know...and your simple logic has no place in defining life or death. what is it that is more than physical? some people call it a spirit or soul. personally, that's just words to me and mean nothing but i use them for my own self because i have no other words to describe something inside me that isn't physical and has no logic to explain it.

my religious background? grew up christian and went to church every week for 16 years. i wouldn't call myself christian or anything else for that matter anymore. i'm just me and i believe in a lot of things that are unique to me. read up on many religions in the past. they all hold truth and they all *BLEEP* at the same time.

i can't tell you if there is a god or not a god. i can only talk about my own experiences and why i believe the way i do and my knowledge from knowing my own self and other people(one of my gifts). knowledge doesn't make a person strong no weak......just more in tune. like a college education. more well rounded. but not in the ways others may understand. the more you know, the more you will be misunderstood....because most people.....think the way you are thinking now.....

also, i think truefusion is wrong. i don't thing you are trying to prove anything. especially life beyond the physical self. i could be wrong. i just think you are questioning things. which is good. a baby has to start walking at one point or another. we all learn in our own time......when we are ready......

[truefusion 3]

Well, unfortunately there is no way to prove who is right. There's only waiting until we die. But this is my opinion.

Currently, there is "no way" to "prove" life after death, as this is something that the individual has to experience themselves, although the topic on cryonics and reviving a person after officially being declared dead can be taken as life after death—but that is not necessarily to the extent that we are suggesting. Indeed, if it were absolutely true that there is no life after death, then studies to try and preserve and revive life are all done in vain. There are obviously only two outcomes here for life after death: either there is or there isn't. If there is, then you'll know and therefore it would have been proven to everyone (since death is inevitable); if there isn't, then no one will know it. While the latter introduces a small paradox as far as proof is concerned, the paradox can be avoided if there is life after death.

 

Stating that things are your opinion is a bit irrelevant given to what has already been said. You have already mentioned that the reason why you spoke about death is to try and prove your position.^[*] (anwiii may have skimmed over that part) When you try to prove something it goes beyond any opinion and attempts to enter a world that is objective, and when within the public domain may be subject to scrutiny.

[webishqiptar 0]

Here are some views of different kind of civilizations on such a mysterious event.

ACCORDING to Atheists

Atheists (those who do not believe in the existence of God) say that man is nothing but an animal. They deny that there is a soul that survives the body and therefore believe that after death there is nothing. They believe that death is the end of life of total and irreversible, and that life should be lived so long that lasts, or for a common ideal or egoistic pleasure.


CULT OF THE COMING EAST

Others, going the other extreme, believe in the most diverse forms of Eastern spirituality - particularly in the theory of reincarnation (of which there are innumerable variations of Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, esoteric, etc..), And a great energy cosmic impersonal all-pervading and all. Dying is for them the transition from earthly existence to another. The soul continues to pass through a long chain of reincarnations, that is reincarnated in other human beings until he has collected all the consequences of their actions.


ACCORDING to AFRICAN RELIGIONS

African traditional religions teach that the dead continue to intervene in the lives of the descendants in the form of "guardian spirits". Children, the "abnormal", and died a violent death are excluded from this role, and remain wandering spirits and dangerous.


ACCORDING TO JUDAISM

The Jewish religion is based on the Old Testament (the first 39 books of the Bible), and teaches that there will be a resurrection of all human beings after the final judgment from God Judaism teaches that when you die, 's soul leaves the body and reaches all the other souls who rest in Sheol (the abode of the dead or Hades). For a thorough explanation of the biblical doctrines of the Old and New Testaments, see here.


According to Islam

Even the Islamic religion - which, we recall, was based partly on Judaism - teaches the existence of the soul and the existence of a day for the final rating (called the "last days"). Islam teaches that those who believe not in Allah is destined to hell, but whoever it was enough just could contemplate Allah.


SOME MODERN CULTS

Pseudocristiane some sects like the Jehovah's Witnesses are taught to not believe in heaven and hell, and merge the concept of heaven with that of terrestrial life.
Their thinking is that the dead who have been sufficiently just one day start to live "a new life on a paradise earth" (in this world).
To support this idea take the biblical verse John 5:28,29. But what this verse actually say? None of that. Jesus says simply that all the dead are raised up, and makes only two distinctions: some have risen in the "resurrection of life" (eternal life with God), and others in "the resurrection of opinion" (final judging described in Revelation 20:11 et seq.)
Jehovah's Witnesses also say that hell does not exist. They say that the Bible does not speak of a hell of fire, and that once dead returns only the dust-existence, and who will instead be judged worthy to live on earth.
The truth is that the Lord Jesus Christ spoke of hell more than heaven and said clearly that hell is like a fiery furnace (Matthew 13:49-50), an unquenchable fire (Mark 9:42-48 ) and eternal (Matthew 18:8).


ACCORDING TO CATHOLICISM

Catholicism, referring in part to the Bible, but also, unfortunately, largely Roman religious tradition teaches that when you die, there are three possible destinations for the soul of the deceased: heaven, hell and purgatory (the Bible instead speaks only of first two, and admits only two possible conditions for the dead: saved and unsaved).
According to the Catholic Church, purgatory is a place of torment where do those who die in grace, to expiate the punishment due for their sins. Relatives who want to help a deceased out of purgatory can apply to the Catholic Church, which will carry a memorial Mass for "help." Even more effective would be making available on the 'privileged altar, which would have the power to immediately leave the soul from purgatory. For further information on purgatory see here.
Catholicism also, like some African religions, teaches that the dead listen to us and help us, and go pray. The Bible teaches that the dead are not able to do anything like this, and prohibits contact with them.

Edited June 6, 2012 by moderator (see edit history)

[nirvaman 1]

We *Muslims* believe that the present life is a trial in preparation for the next realm of existence. When a Muslim dies, he or she is washed and wrapped in a clean, white cloth (usually by a family member) and buried after a special prayer, preferably the same day. Muslims consider this a final service that they can do for their relatives and an opportunity to remember that their own existence here on earth is brief.
The question of whether there is life after death does not fall under the jurisdiction of science, as science is concerned only with classification and analysis of sense data. Moreover, man has been busy with scientific inquiries and research, in the modern sense of the term, only for the last few centuries, while he has been familiar with the concept of life after death since time immemorial.
All the Prophets of God called their people to worship God and to believe in life after death. They laid so much emphasis on the belief in life after death that even a slight doubt in it meant denying God and made all other beliefs meaningless.

The very fact that all the Prophets of God have dealt with this metaphysical question of life after death so confidently and so uniformly - the gap between their ages in some cases, being thousands of years - goes to prove that the source of their knowledge of life after death as proclaimed by them all, was the same, i.e. Divine revelation.

We also know that these Prophets of God were greatly opposed by their people, mainly on the issue of life after death, as their people thought it impossible. But in spite of opposition, the Prophets won many sincere followers.

The question arises: what made those followers forsake the established beliefs, traditions and customs of their forefathers, notwithstanding the risk of being totally alienated from their own community? The simple answer is: they made use of their faculties of mind and heart and realized the truth.

Did they realize the truth through perceptual consciousness? They couldn’t, as perceptual experience of life after death is impossible. God has given man besides perceptual consciousness, rational, aesthetic and moral consciousness too. It is this consciousness that guides man regarding realities that cannot be verified through sensory data. That is why all the Prophets of God while calling people to believe in God and life after death, appeal to the aesthetic, moral and rational consciousness of man.

For example, when the idolaters of Makkah denied even the possibility of life after death, the Quran exposed the weakness of their stand by advancing very logical and rational arguments in support of it:

And he (i.e. man) presents for Us an example (i.e. attempting to establish the finality of death) and forgets his [own] creation. He says, “Who will give life to bones while they are disintegrated?” Say, “He will give them life who produced them the first time; and He is, of all creation, Knowing.” [it is] He who made for you from the green tree, fire, and then from it you ignite. Is not He who created the heavens and the earth Able to create the likes of them? Yes, [it is so]; and He is the Knowing Creator.

On another occasion, the Quran very clearly says that the disbelievers have no sound basis for their denial of life after death. It is based on pure conjecture:

And they say, “There is not but our worldly life; we die and live (i.e. some people die and others live, replacing them) and nothing destroys us except time.” And they have of that no knowledge; they are only assuming. And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, their argument is only that they say, “Bring [back] our forefathers, if you should be truthful.” Say, “God causes you to live, then causes you to die; then He will assemble you for the Day of Resurrection, about which there is no doubt,” but most of the people do not know.

Surely God will raise all the dead. But God has His own plan of things. A day will come when the whole universe will be destroyed and then the dead will be resurrected to stand before God. That day will be the beginning of a life that will never end, and on that day every person will be rewarded by God according to his or her good or evil deeds.
The explanation that the Quran gives about the necessity of life after death is what the moral consciousness of man demands. Actually, if there is no life after death, the very belief in God becomes meaningless or even if one believes in God, it would be n unjust and indifferent God, having once created man and now not being concerned with his fate.

Surely, God is just. He will punish the tyrants, whose crimes are beyond count - having tortured and killed hundreds or thousands of innocent people, created great corruption in society, enslaved numerous persons to serve their whims, etc., because man has a very short life span in this world and because numerous individuals are affected by one’s actions, adequate punishments and rewards are not possible in this life. The Quran very emphatically states that the Day of Judgment must come and that God will decide the fate of each soul according to his or her record of deeds:

But those who disbelieve say, “The Hour (i.e. the Day of Judgment) will not come to us.” Say, “Yes, by my Lord, it will surely come to you. [God is] the Knower of the unseen.” Not absent from Him is an atom’s weight within the heavens or within the earth or [what is] smaller than that or greater, except that it is in a clear register - That He may reward those who believe and do righteous deeds. Those will have forgiveness and noble provision. But those who strive against Our verses [seeking] to cause failure (i.e. to undermine their credibility) - for them will be a painful punishment of foul nature.

The Day of Resurrection will be the Day when God’s attributes of Justice and Mercy will be in full manifestation. God will shower His mercy on those who suffered for His sake in the worldly life, believing that an eternal bliss was awaiting them. But those who abused the bounties of God, caring nothing for the life to come, will be in the most miserable state. Drawing a comparison between them, the Quran says:

Then is he whom We have promised a good promise which he will meet [i.e. obtain] like he for whom We provided enjoyment of worldly life [but] then he is, on the Day of Resurrection, among those presented [for punishment in Hell]?

The Quran also states that this worldly life is a preparation for the eternal life after death. But those who deny it become slaves of their passions and desires, making fun of virtuous and God-conscious persons.
Such persons realize their folly only at the time of their death and wish to be given a further chance in the world but in vain. Their miserable state at the time of death, and the horror of the Day of Judgment, and the eternal bliss guaranteed to the sincere believers are very clearly and beautifully mentioned in the following verses of the Quran:

[For such is the state of the disbelievers], until, when death comes to one of them, he says, “My Lord, send me back that I might do righteousness in that which I left behind (i.e. in that which I neglected).” No! It is only a word he is saying; and behind them is a barrier until the Day they are resurrected. So when the Horn is blown, no relationship will there be among them that Day, nor will they ask about one another. And those whose scales are heavy [with good deeds] - it is they who are the successful. But those whose scales are light - those are the ones who have lost their souls, [being] in Hell, abiding eternally. The Fire will sear their faces, and they therein will have taut smiles (i.e. their lips having been contracted by scorching until the teeth are exposed).

The belief in life after death not only guarantees success in the Hereafter but also makes this world full of peace and happiness by making individuals most responsible and dutiful in their activities.
Think of the people of Arabia before the arrival of the Prophet Muhammad{PBUH} . Gambling, wine, tribal feuds, plundering and murdering were their main traits when they had no belief in life after death. But as soon as they accepted the belief in the One God and life after death they became the most disciplined nation of the world. They gave up their vices, helped each other in hours of need, and settled all their disputes on the basis of justice and equality. Similarly the denial of life after death has its consequences not only in the Hereafter but also in this world. When a nation as a whole denies it, all kinds of evils and corruption become rampant in that society and ultimately it is destroyed.

The Quran mentions the terrible end of Aad, Thamud and the Pharaoh in some detail:

[The tribes of] Thamud and Aad denied the Striking Calamity [i.e. the Resurrection]. So as for Thamud, they were destroyed by the overpowering [blast]. And as for Aad, they were destroyed by a screaming, violent wind which He [i.e. God] imposed upon them for seven nights and eight days in succession, so you would see the people therein fallen as if they were hollow trunks of palm trees. Then do you see of them any remains? And there came Pharaoh and those before him and the overturned cities (i.e. those to which Lot was sent) with sin. And they disobeyed the messenger of their Lord, so He seized them with a seizure exceeding [in severity]. Indeed, when the water overflowed, We carried you [i.e. your ancestors] in the sailing ship (i.e. which was constructed by Noah). That We might make it for you a reminder and [that] a conscious ear would be conscious of it.

Notice from truefusion:

Too many sources to list

[linekill 1]

What a great discussion. Death means life. Without death how will we know we're alive. Different religions/beliefs offers different explanations of our current life and what lay beyond it. That's the beauty of it. And it's great to hear people talking about death and accepting each other's point of view. Well, we're going to die someday. So we just got to make the most of what we have today.

[nirvaman 1]

Well said linekill , i think so , God created death , to let us think about life , and enjoy it , this life is good , and the other one is better!!

[T X 0]

I'm an Atheist however I don't insult religion because I simply cannot blame it. People can believe what they want to believe. I've feared death since I was little but now it doesn't bother me much.I do believe that after death there is nothing. You can't think or live or walk or talk or anything. That's okay though since once you die you become insignificant and what does death matter anyway? We should focus on life considering the fact that it's so short and we don't have time to think about death.I mean I base my beliefs off of religious beliefs such as karma but I don't consider myself religious because I'm not heavy on souls and heaven and god and Jesus.