Indian Classical Music! Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Dha Ni Sa

[rob86 2]

Hello there! I hope you weren't expecting a lesson on indian classical music, because I don't know anything about it! I was actually hoping there was someone here that did. I've always (always, as in the the last year ) been interested in the classical music of India. It just seems to fit my idea of what music should be. Music to me isn't about heavily produced rap songs, it's this improvised classical music from the soul. It interests me very much that there's so much feeling in ICM. I heard some Indian musicans play, with tabla's, sarods, sitars.. etc and I was blown away. It was so radically different, so "live" sounding, so loosely structured and captivating, it intrigued me. It's definitely an acquired taste for sure, and even the Canadian-Indian people I know tell me it sounds like animals dying and they avoid it like the plague, so it's hard to find anyone interested in it. If anyone knows anything at all about this genre of music, could somebody tell me what the difference between Carnatic and Hindustani music is? I guess Carnatic is south Indian, and Hindustani is North Indian..but there must be something else to it!Another thing that interested me is just the way stuff is learned in India. When you want to learn how to play the piano or guitar, you buy books, or take weekly lessons. From what I read about learning Indian music, you have to move to India and spend all your time with a Guru for a couple years. They say that's the only true way to learn ICM. That's a little too intense for me I think...

Edited September 7, 2009 by rob86 (see edit history)

[The Simpleton 2]

Hey Rob!

 

It's inspiring to see a Canadian being interested in Indian classical music, when most of India's youth is slowly drawing away from the same.....ICM sure is delightful to the one who truly appreciates it and it isn't all about tablas and sitars, to be honest And there is indeed a subtle difference between Carnatic and Hindustani music, which together comprise Indian Classical Music. The basic distinguishing factor is, as you said, the region.

 

Carnatic music is mainly confined to the four southern states of India(Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Kerala and Tamil Nadu). To be more precise, the roots of Carnatic music are from the Sanskrit language, based on which these four states get their own regional languages.

 

Hindustani music, on the other hand, is more distinguished and though set in Northern India, has roots from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal (except Afghanistan, the other three were actually a part of India a long time ago) and hence has masters who are both Hindus and Muslims. That is the reason we have Hindu "pandits" and Muslim "Ustads" like Pandit Ravi Shankar and Ustad Ali Akbar Khan, both well-versed in Hindustani music. Now the question comes as to what is the difference between the two...

 

Simply put, Carnatic music emphasizes more on singing than Hindustani. Most of the compositions in Carnatic are sung rather than played on instruments. Hindustani, on the other hand, is a mix of singing and instrumental. There are similarities between these two forms too. According to Wikipedia,

Although there are stylistic differences, the basic elements of śruti (the relative musical pitch), swara (the musical sound of a single note), rāga (the mode or melodic formul?), and tala (the rhythmic cycles) form the foundation of improvisation and composition in both Carnatic and Hindustani music. Although improvisation plays an important role, Carnatic music is mainly sung through compositions, especially the kriti (or kirtanam); a form developed between the 16th and 20th centuries by prominent composers, such as Purandara Dasa and the Trinity of Carnatic music.

So there's something for everyone in Indian classical music. It simply soothes the mind and challenges it at times too!

Another thing that interested me is just the way stuff is learned in India. When you want to learn how to play the piano or guitar, you buy books, or take weekly lessons. From what I read about learning Indian music, you have to move to India and spend all your time with a Guru for a couple years. They say that's the only true way to learn ICM. That's a little too intense for me I think...

Yes, to learn true ICM, you have to spend time with a Guru, who's willing to teach you all he knows provided you show the dedication and talent for it. There are strict Gurus present even today in remote areas of India but most of the time, students just visit the Guru/teacher's house/class as if it were a regular school and then go back to their homes and practice. From what I know, the few people who practice ICM with true dedication find their Gurus in their parents. It's kind of hereditary...

 

The Canadian-Indian people you're talking about (better known here as NRIs - Non-Resident Indians), well just by living away from India shows that they're not that interested in India's culture and way of life. Things need to be too comfy for them so they're seeking their livelihood so far away from home!!! so it's most unlikely that you'll find someone who truly loves ICM among the NRI community. There are a select few, but it's hard to trace them.

 

still,it's not hard to learn anything these days...I think a few goooooogly terms should help you find something useful I'll see if I can find something as well. Oh, and I have a funny video to show you - it shows you plainly how different ICM and western music are. I'll put it up ASAP.

[rob86 2]

I actually wrote a reply to this a long time ago but Trap was having one of it's down times and I saved the post on my gnome Desktop and lost it during my switch to Xfce.. now I forget what I said!I'm familiar with Ravi Shankar and Ali Akbar Khan..and some others. I like what I've heard from Vishwa Mohan Bhatt though I think he's a slide guitarist. I haven't heard much of his music. There's a musician Derek Trucks (American?) who studied Indian music and has done some interesting songs. I think he's a rock, jazz musician but his slide guitar playing is excellent and definitely infused with some nice ICM influences.. One nice song I can think of off the top of my head while not purely classical is Maki Madni with .. oh man, this is a long name -- Rahat Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan -- it's nice!Indian instruments are very hard to find here, they seem only be available from the big cities in Canada and cost a lot! I took an old guitar of mine and tried to modify it to sound like something remotely Indian. I had to raise the height of the strings ..lower the tuning..use skinny strings.. tune my guitar to use drone notes.. use chorus and reverb and delay effects and filters to eq out excess bass.. in the end, unfortunately its sound not surprisingly left much to be desired, though I did learn my first (and only) raga on it.. which I enjoyed playing over some bad tabla and dholak track I created.. There's an interesting software called um.. Swar Shala, which looks good, but unfortunately it seems to cost a lot. They say the price is so high because ICM isn't very popular and not many people buy their software.. too bad! It looks to be good for someone learning about ICM in general and also musicians who play the Indian instruments.You seem to know a bit about ICM, are you a musician? Do you have any recommendations for songs to listen to? I wish I could get some Indian instruments though.. they are really cool. I'm truly jealous! I know what you mean about NRI, my Indian friend wants to move from Canada to USA.. I was kind of offended! I think it'd be neat to visit India.. it seems like an interesting country. I guess you forgot the video, that's okay, I forget posts too..

[The Simpleton 2]

Oh yeah I forgot about that video....actually I had to do some converting to extract that particular scene and in the middle of some other work I forgot Well it's okay I'll do it soon - it's a scene from a Telugu movie about ICM and how modern times are killing it.

You seem to know a bit about ICM, are you a musician? Do you have any recommendations for songs to listen to? I wish I could get some Indian instruments though.. they are really cool. I'm truly jealous!

Well I play only one Indian instrument - the Veena and am a bit shabby now - been long since I practiced! Anyway I could recommend some songs for you but that'd mean stirring up my mind for some names. That should take a lil' time too. But the first name that comes to mind is M.S.Subbalakshmi who was a master of Carnatic music. Try and see if you can get a few of her songs from the net. There are quite a few sites offering them.

I know what you mean about NRI, my Indian friend wants to move from Canada to USA.. I was kind of offended! I think it'd be neat to visit India.. it seems like an interesting country.

well what can I say about those kind of people....well better not say it out This trend will continue to grow - Indians getting attracted to Western countries and vice-versa. Only time will tell what'll happen next!
Edited November 4, 2009 by The Simpleton (see edit history)

[iGuest 3]

Dear Rob:

I stumbled on your post while searching for hindusthani classical music ringtones, havent yet found them. It is nice to see your interest in Indian classical music. The reply to your post seems to have some misconceptions about Hindusthani music and the differences between Hindusthani and Carnatic music.

The main differences between Hindusthani and Caranatic music are

(a) structure of  raagas : Eventhough Hindusthani and Carnatic musicAre based on the same raaga system, the names(eg: Bhoopali and Mohanam)And the way each raaga (even with the same notes) is treated is quiteDifferent. Hindusthani raagas are characterised by the characterisitcMovement (pakad) and not just by the notes, while Carnatic raagas areMore characterised by their notes. It is common in Hindusthani to haveDifferent raagas (eg: Bhoopali and Deshkar) with the same notes, whileThis is not possible in Carnatic music. So the same raagas (with the same notes) will sound very different when sung in hindusthani and carnatic style. However, there is cross migration of raagas between the two systems (eg Hamswadhwani to hindusthani and Brindavani Saarang to Carnatic), even here I feel that the raagas sound very different when sung in the two systems, especially when hindusthani raagas are sung by carnatic musicians.

( in the style of singing : Hindusthani progresses from a short non-lyrical exposition of the raaga(aalap), then a slow exposition of the raaga through a short lyrical piece(khayal) with increasing tempo culminating in another short lyrical piece sung in fast tempo (drut) ending with taans(fast movements without words but with aah sounds). Carnatic is mostly even paced and more composition based.  There is raaga vistaram (similar to aalap) in carnatic music, but they are usually done at an even tempo and in a tyoe of composition called raagam-thanam-pallavai.  Taans are also there in carnatic music but usually done as a part of raagam thaanam pallavi. Hindusthani raagas have specific mood and time delineation , lie morning, noon, evening and night raagas, romantic raagas, monsoon raagas. This delineation is very little in Carnatic, eventhough there are some raagas like nattai which are nown to be morning raagas. However Hindusthani musicians will never sing a morning raaga for an evening concert while Carnatic musicians will sing nattai for evening concerts. This shows that the mood and the time of a raaga is not that important in carnatic music.

© content of music : carnatic being more lyrical and rhythm based while Hindusthani is more mood and raaga based. The lyrics of Carnatic music are  entirely hindu devotional while Hindusthani music has devotional (both hindu and muslim), romantic and other types of lyrics. 

 In addition, there are other differences like the rhythms (taals) which are in general different in both systems, eventhough there are some common taals (eg teen taal and adi taal). There are also differences in the instruments being used to accompany (tabla, harmoniu, saarangi for hindusthani vocal while mridangam, ganjira, ghatam for carnatic) vocal music in both the systems. 

 [ Hindustani music, on the other hand, is more distinguished and thoughSet in Northern India, has roots from Afghanistan, Pakistan,Bangladesh, Nepal (except Afghanistan, the other three were actually aPart of India a long time ago) and hence has masters who are bothHindus and Muslims. That is the reason we have Hindu "pandits" andMuslim "Ustads" like Pandit Ravi Shankar and Ustad Ali Akbar Khan, bothWell-versed in Hindustani music. Now the question comes as to what isThe difference between the two...]

It is true that Hindusthani music has been influenced by the Persians, who ruled India for many years as Mughals. However, it is quite wrong to say that it has roots in non-Indian (or even non-hindu culture). This seems to be a common misconception among carnatic music enthusiasts. The oldest form of Indian classical music is Dhrupad, which has direct origins from the saama veda chants. Dhrupad music, which still has a large following in india and is quite meditative, evolved into the present khayal based hindusthani music during the time of mughals through improvisations of great musiciams like Tansen, Amir khusroo (inventor of sitar). I feel that Hindusthani music has benefitted from this muslim influence and is hence more inclusive and spiritual  than carnatic which has become more of tradition, hereditory lineage, exclusive and hence rigid over the years.  After all, there is only one God, whether Hindu, Muslim or Christian and if music is spiritual it should be in priase of all divinity and not just hindu gods. [simply put, Carnatic music emphasizes more on singing than Hindustani. Most of the compositions in Carnatic are sungRather than played on instruments. Hindustani, on the other hand, is aMix of singing and instrumental. There are similarities between theseTwo forms too. ]

This is clearly not true, hindusthani vocal music is and has been  the torchbearer of hindusthani music. Vocal music remains the most expressive, important,  respected, and popular among serious hindusthani classical music enthusiasts. Ofcourse insturmental music seems to be more appealing to aquaintances of hindusthani music and hence its popularity among the not so serious music enthusiasts.

Regarding your question about learning  Indian classical music, if anybody plans to become a professional musician it is not possible to do that without years of serious study and practice in close proximity with a guru. In hindusthani music, the training of serious candidates is still done in the gurukula system, eventhough the student may not stay with the guru now a days, but will have to attend daily (or more frequent) practice sessions. There are also many students who stay with their gurus and learn the music. 

With the availibility of internet, it is very easy to find music samples. You could search youtube for short and long music clips of various artists. Patric Moutal, Rajan Parrikar and Sunil Mukhi maintain good websites on Hindusthani music. You may even be able to buy Indian instruments online. However if you are seriouly interested in Indian music you could visit India and go around the concert circles in northe and south. It is Music season in Chennai from December, a good place for listening to Carnatic music. There are various Hindusthani music festivals (usually runs for 24 hours to listen to raags of all hues), Sawai Gandharva festival of Pune, Tansen festival, etc are some of the biggest. 

I hope I have answered your queries.

With best regards

Baburaj 

[The Simpleton 2]

Wow Baburaj thanks for clearing up a lot of things I gave those replies based on limited knowledge but you seem to be a music enthusiast - it was good reading your lengthy reply. Hope to see you someday on the forums...

 

 

Dear Rob:

 

I stumbled on your post while searching for hindusthani classical music ringtones, havent yet found them. It is nice to see your interest in Indian classical music. The reply to your post seems to have some misconceptions about Hindusthani music and the differences between Hindusthani and Carnatic music.

 

The main differences between Hindusthani and Caranatic music are

 

(a) structure of raagas : Eventhough Hindusthani and Carnatic music Are based on the same raaga system, the names(eg: Bhoopali and Mohanam) And the way each raaga (even with the same notes) is treated is quite Different. Hindusthani raagas are characterised by the characterisitc Movement (pakad) and not just by the notes, while Carnatic raagas are More characterised by their notes. It is common in Hindusthani to have Different raagas (eg: Bhoopali and Deshkar) with the same notes, while This is not possible in Carnatic music. So the same raagas (with the same notes) will sound very different when sung in hindusthani and carnatic style. However, there is cross migration of raagas between the two systems (eg Hamswadhwani to hindusthani and Brindavani Saarang to Carnatic), even here I feel that the raagas sound very different when sung in the two systems, especially when hindusthani raagas are sung by carnatic musicians.

 

( in the style of singing : Hindusthani progresses from a short non-lyrical exposition of the raaga(aalap), then a slow exposition of the raaga through a short lyrical piece(khayal) with increasing tempo culminating in another short lyrical piece sung in fast tempo (drut) ending with taans(fast movements without words but with aah sounds). Carnatic is mostly even paced and more composition based. There is raaga vistaram (similar to aalap) in carnatic music, but they are usually done at an even tempo and in a tyoe of composition called raagam-thanam-pallavai. Taans are also there in carnatic music but usually done as a part of raagam thaanam pallavi. Hindusthani raagas have specific mood and time delineation , lie morning, noon, evening and night raagas, romantic raagas, monsoon raagas. This delineation is very little in Carnatic, eventhough there are some raagas like nattai which are nown to be morning raagas. However Hindusthani musicians will never sing a morning raaga for an evening concert while Carnatic musicians will sing nattai for evening concerts. This shows that the mood and the time of a raaga is not that important in carnatic music.

 

© content of music : carnatic being more lyrical and rhythm based while Hindusthani is more mood and raaga based. The lyrics of Carnatic music are entirely hindu devotional while Hindusthani music has devotional (both hindu and muslim), romantic and other types of lyrics.

 

In addition, there are other differences like the rhythms (taals) which are in general different in both systems, eventhough there are some common taals (eg teen taal and adi taal). There are also differences in the instruments being used to accompany (tabla, harmoniu, saarangi for hindusthani vocal while mridangam, ganjira, ghatam for carnatic) vocal music in both the systems.

 

[ Hindustani music, on the other hand, is more distinguished and though Set in Northern India, has roots from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal (except Afghanistan, the other three were actually a Part of India a long time ago) and hence has masters who are both Hindus and Muslims. That is the reason we have Hindu "pandits" and Muslim "Ustads" like Pandit Ravi Shankar and Ustad Ali Akbar Khan, both Well-versed in Hindustani music. Now the question comes as to what is The difference between the two...]

 

It is true that Hindusthani music has been influenced by the Persians, who ruled India for many years as Mughals. However, it is quite wrong to say that it has roots in non-Indian (or even non-hindu culture). This seems to be a common misconception among carnatic music enthusiasts. The oldest form of Indian classical music is Dhrupad, which has direct origins from the saama veda chants. Dhrupad music, which still has a large following in india and is quite meditative, evolved into the present khayal based hindusthani music during the time of mughals through improvisations of great musiciams like Tansen, Amir khusroo (inventor of sitar). I feel that Hindusthani music has benefitted from this muslim influence and is hence more inclusive and spiritual than carnatic which has become more of tradition, hereditory lineage, exclusive and hence rigid over the years. After all, there is only one God, whether Hindu, Muslim or Christian and if music is spiritual it should be in priase of all divinity and not just hindu gods.

 

[simply put, Carnatic music emphasizes more on singing than Hindustani. Most of the compositions in Carnatic are sung Rather than played on instruments. Hindustani, on the other hand, is a Mix of singing and instrumental. There are similarities between these Two forms too. ]

 

This is clearly not true, hindusthani vocal music is and has been the torchbearer of hindusthani music. Vocal music remains the most expressive, important, respected, and popular among serious hindusthani classical music enthusiasts. Ofcourse insturmental music seems to be more appealing to aquaintances of hindusthani music and hence its popularity among the not so serious music enthusiasts.

 

Regarding your question about learning Indian classical music, if anybody plans to become a professional musician it is not possible to do that without years of serious study and practice in close proximity with a guru. In hindusthani music, the training of serious candidates is still done in the gurukula system, eventhough the student may not stay with the guru now a days, but will have to attend daily (or more frequent) practice sessions. There are also many students who stay with their gurus and learn the music.

 

With the availibility of internet, it is very easy to find music samples. You could search youtube for short and long music clips of various artists. Patric Moutal, Rajan Parrikar and Sunil Mukhi maintain good websites on Hindusthani music. You may even be able to buy Indian instruments online. However if you are seriouly interested in Indian music you could visit India and go around the concert circles in northe and south. It is Music season in Chennai from December, a good place for listening to Carnatic music. There are various Hindusthani music festivals (usually runs for 24 hours to listen to raags of all hues), Sawai Gandharva festival of Pune, Tansen festival, etc are some of the biggest.

 

I hope I have answered your queries.

 

With best regards

 

Baburaj

[rob86 2]

Interesting and informative reply Baburaj (if you are still around). I learned a lot about ICM from your post, not to mention a lot of new words! I would love to visit India and experience the music season, maybe some time in the future.TheSimpleton: I will listen to the music you suggested. I also watched some Veena video clips, I was impressed by it, it is a fine instrument. Nice appearance and sound. It's too bad you have stopped practicing. I am just now browsing a catalog of instruments, dreaming of things I'd like to have. Let's see.. Sitar, $3500CAD , Veena , $850, Sarod, $600, Tabla set $375, oh check this out! Tumbi, $35! Something I can afford! Hoorah!

Edited November 27, 2009 by rob86 (see edit history)

[iGuest 3]

Dear Rob86:

I came back to see whether my reply has reached you!! Glad that you found my mail useful. The prices of the instruments seem to be exhorbitant, you will get these instruments at one tenth of this price if you buy from India. BTW http://www.tarang-classical-indian-music.com/indian_music_teachers_usa_eng.htm gives you a list of indian classical music teachers in canada.

regards

Baburaj