Homosexuality Homosexuality - Yes or no?

[truefusion 3]

first of all, that first response of your pisses me off. you are the one assuming that homosexuals have the same rights as non homosexuals. your statement is false false false.

I await your evidence.

not only don't they have the same right where the law is concerned, they are discriminated against where the law should protect them and the laws aren't doing a very good job in protecting their rights. heck....i can take it further in stating that some laws have a hard time protecting non homosexuals. what pisses me off though aside from the ignorance is the platent disregard for the truth in what goes on in the united states which demeans and prohibits homosexuals leading the same productive lives as heterosexuals. there is no excuse for ignorance...

Others not taking the time to protect the rights they have doesn't show that they don't have the same rights. From what i can get from your post, the only areas they have trouble "protecting" their rights is in personal matters, not in places like an actual court of law.

i didn't really understand your second resonse. the original message was coming from two different points of view.....with one point of view being an assumtion on his brothers behalf.

I get the feeling that you understand it by at least 45% (maybe 43%). You (plural) can't state something as a fact that contradicts itself (and expect everyone to accept it).

i read another comment of yours that stated that there is no evidense that people are born homosexual. i believed there was. in some cases....or at least evidense that supports it. even if there wasn't, why downplay homosexuality in all your posts?

Would you accept something mentioned as truth when there is no evidence for it, when others take their time to use these "truths" to justify themselves? Apply this to any situation. Would you accept it? From what is observable in this statement of yours, one could conclude that truth isn't necessary for you in order to support something. That is, "it may be true" is enough to consider it "true."

btw- funny....someone close to me talked to an apartment manager the other day and asked her why she didn't rent to her friend. the apartment manager stated she was a lezbian and wouldn't be acepted there. this was at a complex where it's hud/usda regulated by the federal government. now tell me gays have the same rights!!!!!

They have the same rights. Discrimination does not equal lack of rights. The situation you bring up states that the situation was handled personally, not on a federal level. From what can be obtained from this quote of yours, one can conclude that your friend's friend just left without a fight from the apartments. Likewise, it shows that your friend didn't really fight for her friend either (since you are leaving us ignorant on anything that could have happened further, probably as an attempt to prove your case, or because it's too personal). Since it was the apartment manager that refused, if the apartment manager is the one that fills out any reports, obviously the reports would be bias. Hence requiring monitoring from any citizens living at the apartments. However, if one were to consider that too much of a hassle, then obviously these situations will always occur.

now if you want to talk about a subject objectively and with a little emotion and feeling, let's hear it....otherwise....these pointless argemnets of yours really get you nowhere. it also pisses me off because i had a lot of gay friends in the past who talked about their strugless and aceptance in society. your b.s. talk doesn't help them ONE BIT.
so if you want to talk about my type of friends the way you have been going on, expect to get a rise out of me in a personal nature....and just remember this last point....

Ironically, it usually doesn't matter what the topic is about. You tend to unleash yourself on me anyway. It becomes slightly difficult (though not too difficult) to stay objective when you do. But i have trouble staying objective when i get emotional, hence requesting that i show emotion, even if it is just a little, on a subject where objectivity is key is counter intuitive.

ignorance is no excuse

Then show me the evidence i'm waiting for. Don't keep me ignorant.

[anwiii 17]

no. ignorance is not an excuse, and you are ignorant in what you are talking about in this thread. you are awaiting my evidence on several areas. YOU research it your own self because i have no time to prove my points just to have them shot down by ignorance once again.

if someone tells me they are depressed and about to commit suicide, yes....i will believe them TRUEFUSION. i am not going to wait and gather evidence to support any claims. i am going to try and help them and TRUST in them with my own faith just as you believe in your own beliefs with faith....not evidence. you are a hypocrite when talking about evidence and needing substantial facts based on scientific evidence or whatever other proof you need to not be so ignorant.

so when i have personally talked to others who are attracted to the opposite sex, and they tell me that THAT is their preferance and they were born that way and had nothing to do with their upbringing and environment....yes TRUEFUSION, i will believe them because they have no reason to lie to me. i sometimes think deep, talk deep, and dig deep to find answers that i am curious about in life.... so either you are calling me a liar or you just don't believe me when i tell you from my own personal experience with friends and aquantances that were homosexual. you degrade human beings with your filth and lies....no doubt from your own belief and religion.

what happened with this lezbian friend was she had to find another place to live when there were over 10 empty units at the other place. yes...it was personal and the manager took it upon herself to make a decision for the hud/usda federal governmnet program that the management agency works under. this is not only discrimination, it is preventing rights to an individual that would normally have them in a court of law. BUT! who has thousands and thousands of dollars to take big companies to court? when rights are violated, it's the same as not having rights if nobody will stand up for you and succeed in the fight against discrimination.

why don't you tell the blacks they all have the same rights too....tell it to the families that watched their relatives hang from ropes just because they were black...even after the 14th amendment.

rights are only as good as the enforcement of rights. THIS is why i say homosexuals don;t have the same rights. oh. they most definately should....but they don't. also....there are written laws....and unwritten laws. just because there are laws, doesn't make them 100% right....and visa versa. just because there aren't laws....doesn't mean there shouldn't be.

i will provide no evidence. you are suffering from some bi polar cycle right now that will pass soon probably....i have noticed those cycles you go through. anything anyone says right now will be struck down by the all mighty moderator. i have known people who have LEFT Xisto just because of you. i don't understand and never will understand how you got put in a position to shoot down so many people with your ignorance.

t's YOU who maybe understood 45% of what this guy was talking about in regards to his own brother and his own opinion. there were no contridictions. everyone understood what he was talking about EXCEPT YOU. YOU were the only one who didn't understand and thought it was a contridiction.

i am originally from los angeles california(now living in a small town with a population of 350). back when the blacks were moving in to certain neighborhoods, they were beaten up and told to get out and stay out. this was in the 1970's after i was born. are you going to tell me those blacks had rights even though they were beaten up and sometimes left for dead because the blacks thought they had rights? all that happened was the proof that they had a right to DIE. you make me SICK!!!

you want to make people believe they have the same rights as everyone else. you ever heard of a second class citizen TRUEFUSION??? the united states government is treating a certain governor of california right now as a second class citizen. certain people can run a state of the United States, but NEVER can they run the united states. do you know why i capitolized United States in one section of the sentence and not in the other? read the constitution one day and understand the difference and understand how some rights people are born with and other rights people have to earn. everyone does NOT have the same rights. THIS is why i call you ignorant.

although i provide no evidence, if i did, i would make you look more stupid than you already look right now. you are barking up the wrong tree with the route your going...

last but not least....if you are going to ask others their evidence, i shall ask you for YOURS in your own arguements. fact is though, you have none. you shoot people down. why? because you don't believe or trust in people. you are also a hypocrite when we all know there is no evidence to support that there is only one god. or even any god for that matter.

thank you for helping me rack up credits. you are helping me build my website. i can't believe i am benefiting from ignorance....

I await your evidence.

Others not taking the time to protect the rights they have doesn't show that they don't have the same rights. From what i can get from your post, the only areas they have trouble "protecting" their rights is in personal matters, not in places like an actual court of law.


I get the feeling that you understand it by at least 45% (maybe 43%). You (plural) can't state something as a fact that contradicts itself (and expect everyone to accept it).


Would you accept something mentioned as truth when there is no evidence for it, when others take their time to use these "truths" to justify themselves? Apply this to any situation. Would you accept it? From what is observable in this statement of yours, one could conclude that truth isn't necessary for you in order to support something. That is, "it may be true" is enough to consider it "true."


They have the same rights. Discrimination does not equal lack of rights. The situation you bring up states that the situation was handled personally, not on a federal level. From what can be obtained from this quote of yours, one can conclude that your friend's friend just left without a fight from the apartments. Likewise, it shows that your friend didn't really fight for her friend either (since you are leaving us ignorant on anything that could have happened further, probably as an attempt to prove your case, or because it's too personal). Since it was the apartment manager that refused, if the apartment manager is the one that fills out any reports, obviously the reports would be bias. Hence requiring monitoring from any citizens living at the apartments. However, if one were to consider that too much of a hassle, then obviously these situations will always occur.


Ironically, it usually doesn't matter what the topic is about. You tend to unleash yourself on me anyway. It becomes slightly difficult (though not too difficult) to stay objective when you do. But i have trouble staying objective when i get emotional, hence requesting that i show emotion, even if it is just a little, on a subject where objectivity is key is counter intuitive.


Then show me the evidence i'm waiting for. Don't keep me ignorant.

[truefusion 3]

no. ignorance is not an excuse, and you are ignorant in what you are talking about in this thread. you are awaiting my evidence on several areas. YOU research it your own self because i have no time to prove my points just to have them shot down by ignorance once again.

If ignorance is not an excuse, then it follows that those who support ignorance have no excuse for supporting it either. But i asked for evidence to clear doubt. However, i no longer need it; my doubt has been cleared. It wasn't necessarily that i was wrong, but, rather, how you interpret "equal rights" that had you declare that i was false.

 

if someone tells me they are depressed and about to commit suicide, yes....i will believe them TRUEFUSION. i am not going to wait and gather evidence to support any claims. i am going to try and help them and TRUST in them with my own faith just as you believe in your own beliefs with faith....not evidence. you are a hypocrite when talking about evidence and needing substantial facts based on scientific evidence or whatever other proof you need to not be so ignorant.

At first i was wondering where this popped out from, but it appears to be following from my response concerning whether or not people are born a homosexual. Bringing up depression and suicide is slightly out of context, but i can see how one can link each up given the surrounding similarities of each. For example, in the case of depression and suicide, consider the position of the one trying to prevent any suicide from occuring: What is stated as truth? "I'm depressed." What action are they trying to justify from the truth? "I think i'm going to kill myself." So, in turn, what is the listener's position? Is it not to try and convince them out of this? Are you not indirectly telling them, "No, you're not depressed; no, you don't want to kill yourself"? So how is the listener now appearing as? The listener is appearing as a disbeliever. Indeed, you realize there is a problem, but the only way to solve the problem is to convince the other side that their position is not the right or safe way to go. This is sounding very familiar, wouldn't you say?

 

But i should mention that i don't appeal—or at least i try not to—to ad hominem statements. The reason why you feel justified in calling me a hypocrite and saying that i have no evidence for my beliefs, like there is a God and that there can only be one, and others, is due to ignorance on your side. I've already told you in another topic that claiming that there is more than one god is fallacious, as it runs along the lines of special pleading and that the universe only implies one God. Since i've already explicitly mentioned this to you, there is more than ignorance here—there is willful ignorance. Likewise, one need not look any further than my Xisto profile for my (current) arguments for the existence of God. Likewise, i have argued for the existence of God in these forums many times. You can even look in my signature for arguments against arguments against Christianity. I have asked you a long time ago whether or not you browsed the forums with signatures and avatars off, but for the time i waited i did not receive an answer from you. Therefore i was only left with one option: to assume that you surf with them off. Otherwise, how could you continue telling me i provide no reasoning or evidence for the things i believe in?

 

so when i have personally talked to others who are attracted to the opposite sex, and they tell me that THAT is their preferance and they were born that way and had nothing to do with their upbringing and environment....yes TRUEFUSION, i will believe them because they have no reason to lie to me. i sometimes think deep, talk deep, and dig deep to find answers that i am curious about in life.... so either you are calling me a liar or you just don't believe me when i tell you from my own personal experience with friends and aquantances that were homosexual. you degrade human beings with your filth and lies....no doubt from your own belief and religion.

Preference implies choice. Even i don't accept contradictions from my friends, as i wouldn't want them to accept my statements when my statements contradict each other. If i don't show favoritism, then i can increase the chances of others doing the same to me. And there is a middle man from the position you assert. I don't believe you're lying to me when you say homosexual friends of yours told you they were born gay, and i do believe you when you tell me things from your personal experiences. But that doesn't mean i have to accept as truth, as you have, what your friends have told you were true. But i don't believe you know enough about my religion to claim that my religion is filth and promotes lies or that it degrades human beings.

 

what happened with this lezbian friend was she had to find another place to live when there were over 10 empty units at the other place. yes...it was personal and the manager took it upon herself to make a decision for the hud/usda federal governmnet program that the management agency works under. this is not only discrimination, it is preventing rights to an individual that would normally have them in a court of law. BUT! who has thousands and thousands of dollars to take big companies to court? when rights are violated, it's the same as not having rights if nobody will stand up for you and succeed in the fight against discrimination.

You don't need thousands upon thousands of dollars to take a big company to court. Likewise, as you say, their rights would be acknowledged in a court of law, especially one with a jury. But choosing not to fight for the rights you have is the same as giving up your rights, in which case, why even bother claiming lack of equal rights?

 

why don't you tell the blacks they all have the same rights too....tell it to the families that watched their relatives hang from ropes just because they were black...even after the 14th amendment.

They had the same rights in this country ever since the Declaration of Independence. But non-sense managed to creep in anyway.

 

rights are only as good as the enforcement of rights. THIS is why i say homosexuals don;t have the same rights. oh. they most definately should....but they don't. also....there are written laws....and unwritten laws. just because there are laws, doesn't make them 100% right....and visa versa. just because there aren't laws....doesn't mean there shouldn't be.

While practically it may be the case that rights are only as good as those who enforce them, following from that logic, you would have to admit that no one has all the rights they've been promised. But i wouldn't declare that i have no rights from that, as i wouldn't be able to uphold them myself.

 

t's YOU who maybe understood 45% of what this guy was talking about in regards to his own brother and his own opinion. there were no contridictions. everyone understood what he was talking about EXCEPT YOU. YOU were the only one who didn't understand and thought it was a contridiction.

Even you said they made an assumption concerning one thing they said about their brother, which implies you know exactly what they're talking about, like as if they told you personally. But that doesn't mean you know exactly what they're talking about.

 

i am originally from los angeles california(now living in a small town with a population of 350). back when the blacks were moving in to certain neighborhoods, they were beaten up and told to get out and stay out. this was in the 1970's after i was born. are you going to tell me those blacks had rights even though they were beaten up and sometimes left for dead because the blacks thought they had rights? all that happened was the proof that they had a right to DIE. you make me SICK!!!

You make yourself sick, assuming conclusions for me when i had yet to mention my position on it (though you didn't really give me any chances to do so, therefore it would be out of my own accord if i were to do so). But it doesn't bother me how i am seen in your eyes.

 

you want to make people believe they have the same rights as everyone else. you ever heard of a second class citizen TRUEFUSION??? the united states government is treating a certain governor of california right now as a second class citizen. certain people can run a state of the United States, but NEVER can they run the united states. do you know why i capitolized United States in one section of the sentence and not in the other? read the constitution one day and understand the difference and understand how some rights people are born with and other rights people have to earn. everyone does NOT have the same rights. THIS is why i call you ignorant.

I already know you have to be a citizen of this country to bear the rights therein. But i will admit, here you provide more insight as to why you call me ignorant. I was never talking or arguing from a State level. Perhaps i should have made that explicit, but i had figured since the context was about laws that every state has, it shouldn't have mattered. I really doubt you're going to tell me there's at least one state out there that doesn't have the right to marry anyone. That's why i said homosexuals have the same marital rights. Which brings me to another point: you are the one taking things into a more general level. I said that homosexuals have the same marital rights, and you took that and removed the word "marital" from it. Which means you were arguing a straw man.

 

last but not least....if you are going to ask others their evidence, i shall ask you for YOURS in your own arguements. fact is though, you have none. you shoot people down. why? because you don't believe or trust in people. you are also a hypocrite when we all know there is no evidence to support that there is only one god. or even any god for that matter.

I've already responded to this part.

[Nameless_ 1]

Homosexuality is a big and controversial topic in out society.What is homosexuality anyway? It's just the same sex loving the same sex. Nothing more.The main reason why everyone is so rigid about their beliefs and all that is because homosexuality is a minority in this society, and that is all it takes to start a debate and everything.It is hard when someone you like turns out to like people of their same sex, so personal reasons might also underly in this hatred and discrimination. But homosexuality is a normal thing in this world, and you can't change who you are.The is how the brain was wired in the early stages of childhood development, maybe even further before when a foetus is only starting to grow.There has been cases of homosexual animals observed taking other animals' eggs or offspring to raise as their own, and this is MORE THAN ENOUGH prove that homosexuality is a normal and natural thing.Homosexuality isn't something us human beings made up, and it isn't something unnatural that should be discriminated and bullied against.It is natural!!!(I'm feeling very angry right now...)For those that are against homosexuality, how would you feel if your child is homosexual? Force them to marry someone 'naturally' different in sex and let them lead a sad ams miserable life?Homosexual marriages should be legalized worldwide!!! Let people get together with people they want to get together with. It's a personal choice, not yours. It's natural!!!The government should have NO say in this matter. What's with marriage anyway? Animals can get together with whoever and whatever they want. And so should humans!!!By banning homosexuality, you are banning a human right, and also a privilege that animals have that humans don't. This is bad!!!By banning homosexuality, we are putting ourselves down, lower than the most primitive life forms.Because we are banning something naturalBecause we are banning something we can't changeBecause we are banning a right that everyone should haveBecause we are banning homosexuality.Let all homosexuals protest for their rights!*bows*

[anwiii 17]

i don't support ignorance. i do support and try to validate opinions though. i keep bringing up ignorance because you have no facts supporting your case against homosexuality. i on the other hand have given real life scenarios that support the fact that homosexuals do not have equal rights compared to every other human being and specifically the united states where i reside.

so you say the difference is the interpretation of equal rights. obviously interpretation is a factor here....but lets go beyond just an interpretation or ANY interpretation. let's talk about a realistic and just interpretation by asking one question that has to do with equal rights. we can start from 1 question and work our way up. the first question to interpret fairly would be "are homosexuals treated the same as other human beings". obviously this answer is NO because everyone is different. therefore everyone is treated different. so then we get to the question "why are homosexuals treated different". if we took a survey, i'm sure there will be a lot of discriminating answers. now....lets ask the question "if it is written in law that homosexuals have the same rights as heterosexuals, does it now have to be proven in a court of law or can the truth be determined out of a court of law allowing a judge or jury to decide and interpret a homosexuals rights in any given case" further more, what if i can show you direct evidence that in a court of law, a heterosexual man commited the same exact crime as a homosexual. the heterosexual recieved a slap on the wrist while the homosexual recieved jail time and a fine. would that prove that homosexuals don't have the same rights? see TRUEFUSION. you asked for evidence...but no matter what evidence i throw out, you will debate it with ignorance or a devil's advocate theme to this subject....downplaying it an he rights of homosexuals....so i am not going to give you ammo. i already stated real life experienced that i have witnessed first hand. an btw- just because the government handed out rights to others, doesn't mean they intend to enforce them. if an agency never intended to enforce certain rights in the first place, i can't for one second believe any individual had those rights to begin with. government is all about paper trails and covering their asses and preventing lawsuits and keeping the people happy with the laws they pass and the rights they hand out to others so not to cause a riot or another civil war.

 

as far as other topics, i don't read every topic i ever posted in or you posted in. sometimes i am gone a long time. i only search out the newest posts when i log in. if i don't see an interesting topic, i don't read it. so i may have missed a lot of your comments. you can't assume ANYTHING from me not responding. also, you just told me another false assumption that i read with avatars and signatures turned off. that is false. you are 0 for 2 now. doesn't surprise me. you are a one sided thinker and think there can only be one conclusion to a situation. have i ever clicked on them? no. never will probably. i like to find my own resources...not ones that are freely advertised like they have something to prove to the world. i have my own agenda in life and i am proud in what i know and how i gain my own knowledge from experience and my own research without the free advertisements from sigs.

 

talking about depression or suicide and how to get someone not so depressed or suicidal is off topic. i used that as an example for a comparison. don't think too much on it. i've dealt with a lot of depressed and suicidal people as well...i think i am more knowledgable using that example and comparison with homosexuality. not because they may be related in how you were trying to insinuate.

 

you say preferance implies choice. this again is ignorance TRUEFUSION. your statement is true to YOU because you believe homosexuals aren't born that way. i believe some are, some are confused, and some like it both ways...and heck...some just like to experiment until they know what they like. THAT is preference where choice is a factor. when you are born a certain way however, there is no choice. so NO, preferance does not imply choice.....you silly silly child. you need to rethink your logic there.

 

you say rights will be aknowledged in a court of law. sure they will. you said especially with a jury. sure they wil but the actual rights will far short more on a jury than with a judge since the lawyers pick the jury to win their case. you could have a few homophobes on the jury that know nothing about right or the law. they just see a flaming *person* that they don't want living in their neighborhood and rather see them in jail. you see this especially in the kangaroo courts(a popular name for the smaller town courts in the midwest and south). you ever been in one? i have. it's one room with a few chairs and a judge siting in a foldout chair behind a foldout table. they really know how to hand down their own unwritten laws. if you never been, i suggest you get a taste of other parts of american culture....but i think you would probably be happier where you are and not really notice the other realities of life.

 

don't appologize to me. in fact *I* am the one who is sorry for not being explicit. i was talking in general on EVERY LEVEL in EVERY TOWN, CITY, COUNTY, STATE, and including the whole United States government. have you figure out why i capitolized the words in United States yet and why i didn't capitolize them in my last post? no? keep reading the constituation....you'll figure it out maybe...i think you may be smart enough to pick up on something that few people know about our beloved constitution.

 

homoseuals had the same rights since the declaration of independance??? hahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i can't even comment on that absurd comment. i'll just let my laughter speak for itself and you can assume as you please. it never stopped you before....even when you are wrong. since you are all about the written law and not the enforcement of it....let me ask you this. did homosexual women have the same right as any heterosexual man or woman? don't stutter when you answer this specific question that the true answer will totally negate anything you said about homosexuals.

 

let's take this further. since you are so confident in our courts of law in america. our courts believe that if you lie once on the stand, your whole testimony should be stricken since the court will no longer be able to distiguish the "truth" coming from a persons lips when they already lied once under oath. so....i assume you believe in that concept too. so every time i catch you in a lie, i shall just not believe anything that comes out of your lips. it's the same system you believe in. ohhhh but hmmm i already do that since i have caught you stating many things in the past that weren't true....well there you have it. true fusion is guilty and is subject to the same rules of the courts he so strongly believes in. he would lie anyway because he is a god fearing man who would never do anything to taint what is written in the bible....oh....unless he believe he will be forgiven if he just asks for it ever time he does something that isn't god worthy. well truefusion. have you lied in your posts in the past? yes or no? please answer this one question. don't be vague. if your answer is yes, i will admire your honesty. if your answer is no, i will do everything in my power to discredit you forever in your posts on this subject and all subjects. since it's the court system you believe in the most. you've stated that several times.

 

no. you are right. you need about $100 dollars to take even the united states government to court. although if one only had that much money for court costs which includes the subpoena, one would never survive. so just to take someone to court doesn't really cost that much. but for a trial that discusses state rights and constituational rights which just may end up in the supreme courts of the state or United States, $100 wont cut it since after a certain level of appeals, you are required to hire an attorney. but even if the attorney takes it on for free, it is still costing money since time is money in the research and the devolopment of the case. so sorry again for not being specific. you're usually an expert on assuptions....but this one flew right over your head.

 

as far as you stating all you talked about were marital rights. well, maybe so, but you and i know darn well what you believe in....and that's why you took it upon yourself to argue back that homosexuals have the same rights INCLUDING marital rights. don't try to flip the coin now. you are already marked as being one who believes homosexuals have the same rights as anyone else. don't try and back down from anything now after responding as you did. i'll debate this all day and night with ya....and maybe if i'm feeling froggy and this conversation continues, i WILL provide the evidence...but you will have to tell me exactly what evidence you need. if it's something reasonable, heck....i'm an expert at gathering evidence and facts. i would love for you to bow down and appologize to all the homos(in your eyes) that will eventually be reading this thread from a christian.

 

 

If ignorance is not an excuse, then it follows that those who support ignorance have no excuse for supporting it either. But i asked for evidence to clear doubt. However, i no longer need it; my doubt has been cleared. It wasn't necessarily that i was wrong, but, rather, how you interpret "equal rights" that had you declare that i was false.

 

 

At first i was wondering where this popped out from, but it appears to be following from my response concerning whether or not people are born a homosexual. Bringing up depression and suicide is slightly out of context, but i can see how one can link each up given the surrounding similarities of each. For example, in the case of depression and suicide, consider the position of the one trying to prevent any suicide from occuring: What is stated as truth? "I'm depressed." What action are they trying to justify from the truth? "I think i'm going to kill myself." So, in turn, what is the listener's position? Is it not to try and convince them out of this? Are you not indirectly telling them, "No, you're not depressed; no, you don't want to kill yourself"? So how is the listener now appearing as? The listener is appearing as a disbeliever. Indeed, you realize there is a problem, but the only way to solve the problem is to convince the other side that their position is not the right or safe way to go. This is sounding very familiar, wouldn't you say?

 

But i should mention that i don't appeal?or at least i try not to?to ad hominem statements. The reason why you feel justified in calling me a hypocrite and saying that i have no evidence for my beliefs, like there is a God and that there can only be one, and others, is due to ignorance on your side. I've already told you in another topic that claiming that there is more than one god is fallacious, as it runs along the lines of special pleading and that the universe only implies one God. Since i've already explicitly mentioned this to you, there is more than ignorance here?there is willful ignorance. Likewise, one need not look any further than my Xisto profile for my (current) arguments for the existence of God. Likewise, i have argued for the existence of God in these forums many times. You can even look in my signature for arguments against arguments against Christianity. I have asked you a long time ago whether or not you browsed the forums with signatures and avatars off, but for the time i waited i did not receive an answer from you. Therefore i was only left with one option: to assume that you surf with them off. Otherwise, how could you continue telling me i provide no reasoning or evidence for the things i believe in?

 

 

Preference implies choice. Even i don't accept contradictions from my friends, as i wouldn't want them to accept my statements when my statements contradict each other. If i don't show favoritism, then i can increase the chances of others doing the same to me. And there is a middle man from the position you assert. I don't believe you're lying to me when you say homosexual friends of yours told you they were born gay, and i do believe you when you tell me things from your personal experiences. But that doesn't mean i have to accept as truth, as you have, what your friends have told you were true. But i don't believe you know enough about my religion to claim that my religion is filth and promotes lies or that it degrades human beings.

 

 

You don't need thousands upon thousands of dollars to take a big company to court. Likewise, as you say, their rights would be acknowledged in a court of law, especially one with a jury. But choosing not to fight for the rights you have is the same as giving up your rights, in which case, why even bother claiming lack of equal rights?

 

 

They had the same rights in this country ever since the Declaration of Independence. But non-sense managed to creep in anyway.

 

 

While practically it may be the case that rights are only as good as those who enforce them, following from that logic, you would have to admit that no one has all the rights they've been promised. But i wouldn't declare that i have no rights from that, as i wouldn't be able to uphold them myself.

 

 

Even you said they made an assumption concerning one thing they said about their brother, which implies you know exactly what they're talking about, like as if they told you personally. But that doesn't mean you know exactly what they're talking about.

 

 

You make yourself sick, assuming conclusions for me when i had yet to mention my position on it (though you didn't really give me any chances to do so, therefore it would be out of my own accord if i were to do so). But it doesn't bother me how i am seen in your eyes.

 

 

I already know you have to be a citizen of this country to bear the rights therein. But i will admit, here you provide more insight as to why you call me ignorant. I was never talking or arguing from a State level. Perhaps i should have made that explicit, but i had figured since the context was about laws that every state has, it shouldn't have mattered. I really doubt you're going to tell me there's at least one state out there that doesn't have the right to marry anyone. That's why i said homosexuals have the same marital rights. Which brings me to another point: you are the one taking things into a more general level. I said that homosexuals have the same marital rights, and you took that and removed the word "marital" from it. Which means you were arguing a straw man.

 

 

I've already responded to this part.

[truefusion 3]

i don't support ignorance. i do support and try to validate opinions though. i keep bringing up ignorance because you have no facts supporting your case against homosexuality. i on the other hand have given real life scenarios that support the fact that homosexuals do not have equal rights compared to every other human being and specifically the united states where i reside.

The testimony of one witness is not something that can be considered as "evidence" (at least in a court of law). Evidence would be if you brought in these people and they testified themselves. While logically you may be able to still argue that they are just actors, that would, however, be irrelevant. The reason being is because all matters should come to a conclusion, even if the conclusion does not go the way it would have if the judge were to be omniscient and wholly just. The conclusion should be allowed to pass if the system did everything that was humanly (and justly) possible given the situation.

 

I should mention, though, that i do not mean to imply that them saying they are born gay would make it true. I mean, it would show that the stories you bring up really did happen in one point in time.

 

so you say the difference is the interpretation of equal rights. obviously interpretation is a factor here....but lets go beyond just an interpretation or ANY interpretation. let's talk about a realistic and just interpretation by asking one question that has to do with equal rights. we can start from 1 question and work our way up. the first question to interpret fairly would be "are homosexuals treated the same as other human beings". obviously this answer is NO because everyone is different. therefore everyone is treated different. so then we get to the question "why are homosexuals treated different". if we took a survey, i'm sure there will be a lot of discriminating answers. now....lets ask the question "if it is written in law that homosexuals have the same rights as heterosexuals, does it now have to be proven in a court of law or can the truth be determined out of a court of law allowing a judge or jury to decide and interpret a homosexuals rights in any given case" further more, what if i can show you direct evidence that in a court of law, a heterosexual man commited the same exact crime as a homosexual. the heterosexual recieved a slap on the wrist while the homosexual recieved jail time and a fine. would that prove that homosexuals don't have the same rights? see TRUEFUSION. you asked for evidence...but no matter what evidence i throw out, you will debate it with ignorance or a devil's advocate theme to this subject....downplaying it an he rights of homosexuals....so i am not going to give you ammo. i already stated real life experienced that i have witnessed first hand. an btw- just because the government handed out rights to others, doesn't mean they intend to enforce them. if an agency never intended to enforce certain rights in the first place, i can't for one second believe any individual had those rights to begin with. government is all about paper trails and covering their asses and preventing lawsuits and keeping the people happy with the laws they pass and the rights they hand out to others so not to cause a riot or another civil war.

What should have followed is, "Why is everyone treated different?" If the law is written, then it is the judge's (and jury's) duty to know the law. Hence, in a court of law it is not required. However, neither is it required outside a court room. Citizens have the right to know their rights and they should take the time to know them, especially if they moved here or are visiting from another country. An unfortunate irony is that even though one may be fighting for equal or more rights, they could be doing so bearing ignorance of the fact that they already have the right they are fighting for. But if you were to show that a heterosexual got a slap on the wrist for the same crime a homosexual committed, while that homosexual got jail time, i would expect for the heterosexual to be given the jail time. I do not equate "being treated differently" with "loss of rights." Also, if they did not have the same rights as the heterosexual, i would not see why you would be attempting to show that a heterosexual got a mere slap on the wrist for the same crime as the homosexual.

 

I realize that the intentions of another individual, group, organization or governing body may differ with common sense or what is to be expected, but i don't care about their intentions if they're not consistent.

 

as far as other topics, i don't read every topic i ever posted in or you posted in. sometimes i am gone a long time. i only search out the newest posts when i log in. if i don't see an interesting topic, i don't read it. so i may have missed a lot of your comments. you can't assume ANYTHING from me not responding. also, you just told me another false assumption that i read with avatars and signatures turned off. that is false. you are 0 for 2 now. doesn't surprise me. you are a one sided thinker and think there can only be one conclusion to a situation. have i ever clicked on them? no. never will probably. i like to find my own resources...not ones that are freely advertised like they have something to prove to the world. i have my own agenda in life and i am proud in what i know and how i gain my own knowledge from experience and my own research without the free advertisements from sigs.

So it was a false assumption. You don't even consider that it was the only logical conclusion that one can formulate (regardless of who it is) given the information that was present. I realize the margin of error that was present, but if you're one that judges by a person's actions, then you should at least be considering that your responses to my posts showed that you were ignorant of where to obtain my arguments or reasons and my beliefs and ignorant of my arguments and beliefs themselves. You don't have to click on them, but i would have figured that you would at least be consistent with your words since you have multiple times requested for the very same information and have accused me in the very same posts of not publicly displaying them. Even if you were to just "run into" them while browsing the Internet, what's the difference between clicking the links here or in some other area?

 

you say preferance implies choice. this again is ignorance TRUEFUSION. your statement is true to YOU because you believe homosexuals aren't born that way. i believe some are, some are confused, and some like it both ways...and heck...some just like to experiment until they know what they like. THAT is preference where choice is a factor. when you are born a certain way however, there is no choice. so NO, preferance does not imply choice.....you silly silly child. you need to rethink your logic there.

Preference^[1][2][3][4]. Okay, i "thought it over." But i should also mention that if you're going to not accept this because i "believe homosexuals aren't born gay," then you should at least also realize that the reason why you are declaring it false, wrong, or flat out denying it, is because you believe that homosexuals are born gay. In which case, you are committing the fallacy of special pleading. Remember, you haven't really shown that homosexuals are born gay, you just said that you trust their word.

 

homoseuals had the same rights since the declaration of independance??? hahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i can't even comment on that absurd comment. i'll just let my laughter speak for itself and you can assume as you please. it never stopped you before....even when you are wrong. since you are all about the written law and not the enforcement of it....let me ask you this. did homosexual women have the same right as any heterosexual man or woman? don't stutter when you answer this specific question that the true answer will totally negate anything you said about homosexuals.

I do not equate "being treated differently" with "loss of rights." And i am for the enforcement of rights. As mentioned before, if i give up my rights, or if i admit that i have no rights, then i would not be able to uphold the rights i lost.

 

let's take this further. since you are so confident in our courts of law in america. our courts believe that if you lie once on the stand, your whole testimony should be stricken since the court will no longer be able to distiguish the "truth" coming from a persons lips when they already lied once under oath. so....i assume you believe in that concept too. so every time i catch you in a lie, i shall just not believe anything that comes out of your lips. it's the same system you believe in. ohhhh but hmmm i already do that since i have caught you stating many things in the past that weren't true....well there you have it. true fusion is guilty and is subject to the same rules of the courts he so strongly believes in. he would lie anyway because he is a god fearing man who would never do anything to taint what is written in the bible....oh....unless he believe he will be forgiven if he just asks for it ever time he does something that isn't god worthy. well truefusion. have you lied in your posts in the past? yes or no? please answer this one question. don't be vague. if your answer is yes, i will admire your honesty. if your answer is no, i will do everything in my power to discredit you forever in your posts on this subject and all subjects. since it's the court system you believe in the most. you've stated that several times.

! And here i thought you were doing that this whole time. In fact, i could argue that this is about as explicit as it has been in an attempt to discredit me for Who knows what reason. I had figured your hate for me was pretty deep, but this makes things less of an assumption and more of a fact. But even though you believe that you know me well, you are not describing me well (though i'm sure what you consider "describing me well" is even less desirable than what you have mentioned). I am not necessarily confident in our courts of law, but i would (and do) agree that the witness's testimony should be considered unreliable if they're known for lying, even if logically one can argue that not everything they say is really false. The only exception would be if every other witness (assuming there are more, as one witness isn't really enough) told the same story. You can assume my statements as false all you want; that doesn't bother me. In fact, you could probably argue that i've been doing likewise to you (though not really all of your statements, and it's more along the lines of "until proven true"). But if i've ever lied, i can't remember, especially considering my post count. I will, however, admit that i have been wrong and have made illogical arguments in the past, but i wouldn't say that being wrong is the same thing as lying (and to do away with the implication, i am not implying that you said or implied that).

 

as far as you stating all you talked about were marital rights. well, maybe so, but you and i know darn well what you believe in....and that's why you took it upon yourself to argue back that homosexuals have the same rights INCLUDING marital rights. don't try to flip the coin now. you are already marked as being one who believes homosexuals have the same rights as anyone else. don't try and back down from anything now after responding as you did. i'll debate this all day and night with ya....and maybe if i'm feeling froggy and this conversation continues, i WILL provide the evidence...but you will have to tell me exactly what evidence you need. if it's something reasonable, heck....i'm an expert at gathering evidence and facts. i would love for you to bow down and appologize to all the homos(in your eyes) that will eventually be reading this thread from a christian.

I noticed the straw man late, but i'll work on being able to realize things better. But sure, i give you the right to state that i believe homosexuals have the same rights as heterosexuals. You more than anyone should already know that i could debate a point all day too. Since the discussion turned out to be over the interpretation of certain terms, evidence isn't really any longer required. However, it would still be interesting if you referenced scientific evidence that showed that homosexuals are born gay. You should keep in mind, though, that if the subject cannot be declared consistent under the scientific method, that it cannot be considered scientific evidence.

[anwiii 17]

*sigh* i see so much ignorance in this world. it's a pretty sad place to live sometimes surrounded by it. i know it's what's needed sometimes to learn and grow...but sometimes the cost seems relentless.i was never attracted to men. the closest i got was hearing my two sister debate which guy was cuter on the television or real life. i do remember however questioning my sexuality when i was a teenager. i remember wondering if i was gay for some reason. so i really gave it some deep thought. i asked myself if i was gay...over and over again. i would try to picture any guy i would be attracted to. the closest answer i ever got was yes, i can be attracted to a guy on an emotional level....but never a physical one. in fact...the whole physical attraction turns me off completely. so i love women over guys. no big headlines there since i'm a guy and usually that just something natural.see, i was born STRAIGHT....just like a true homosexual was born attracted to the same sex. but sometimes i wonder if everyone is bi. i mean....where o our friends come from? why are we attracted to the same sex and call them "friends"? so i di think a lot about this growing up. i was never a homophobe....thus, all my homosexual friends...mainly male. pretty cool people to hang with....and they knew their limits and respected my own orientation. if they didn't, i doubt i would be calling them my friends to this day. they taught me a lot when i just listened....and sometimes asked questions. i am curious about everything in nature and how life works.problem getting to know homosexuals though, i had to put my curiosity on the back burner and gain trust first. they go through so much non acceptance which is the reason most don't like to talk about their orientation. many get beat up and even killed for who they are. it's really a hard life to live. so whoever says that these types of people are not born this way and CHOOSE to live unaccepted and tortured with hatred is FULL OF IT!yea, there are exceptions to everything....but for the most part, homosexuals are born atttracted to the same sex. you are either born with what is inside you, or you learn to choose a way of life whether those choices are the right ones or wrong ones for ones own true purpose in life. there is no solid proof that homosexuals are born that way, but THERE IS undeniable evidence showing that it is a good possibility. there is also NO evidence showing that there is no way a homosexual is born that way. so with the evidence at hand, talking to my friends over the years and learning alot, using logic and using my own intuitions in what i personally know is truth in life, it all points in one direction.again, it's really sad to see the ignorance in life. to see so much negative energy. i've been in the middle of it since i was born...almost attracted to it like a magnet to understand life more. it's a shame how people live and die and never really know #$%^ about the life they led or why they led it the way they did. sure. they probably accomplished some things....but what i they really offer our next generation to believe in and trust in and accept about life. how they some people can look down on others when they themselves have their own secrets they wont admit.i love watching movies. some movies have asked the question "when you look at me, what do you see". "you see a black man". like that is something bad. when i look at people...heck...i see black people. so what. i see all sorts of people. i sometimes see so much that even they hope i don't see them that deep inside them. i don't see a black man as the same as any white man because everyone is different and unique. just because there are differences though doesn't mean we should shy away from what we don't know. we are all human beings with a purpose in life.i have known and talked to the homeless extensively. the trippy part is that i believe that some homeless were born homeless. it is their own purpose to be homeless. to live that lifestyle.....not because they lost a job or their wife or husband left them....or lost everything in the stock market or just couldn't pay the bills and/or rent. some people are actually born this way....with the mentality of a homeless human being. a struggle for them....and people look down on them. why? because they think they are better than the homeless? a lot of the homeless are actually quite smart people....naturally and instinctively smart. they experience things and learn things from those experiences that other people will never experience or learn from....interesting things....fun and sad things....like everyone else in life that isn't homeless....just different. some people call the homeless lazy and good for nothing when it is REALLY hard to be homeless. it takes work and dedication and a willingness to live and fight for who they are. the reason why i bring up the homeless is that they are a minority just like homosexuals. most people shy away from them and never get to know them or who they are or what they are all about in life. maybe people are afraid that if a homosexual touches them, they will turn *person* too....or god forbid thinking that if they are associating themselves with a homosexual, other people will think they are gay. funny thing is, the more people stray away, the less they will know....and the more they will start talking about how they couldn't possibly be born that way. although i have experienced many things and somewhat a traveler and a seeker of lifes truths, i always wished i could write my thoughts down. for some reason i cannot do that fully and never knew why. i'm an ok writer...a very deep thinker....i always wished i could combine the two. i can't why? i was born that way as well. i know why i was born that way. writing would be a distraction to the experiences and knowledge i would gain helping others....by talking....watching....and listening.it's why i struggle posting on trap so many times in subjects i believe in deeply and why my writing have no order to them...just miscelaneous thoughts that pop out when the time is right to type them...almost if someone is helping me be distracted for the few minutes i have a deep need to write stuff down.i hope people reading this....will one day take time out of their boring lives to understand the things that they most fear. if one can't push themselves to be better people then we can't expect our children to give a rats #%% either...might as well give up on them too...

[Www.AnthonyLazaroni.Com 0]

anwii and truefusion, u 2 are realy devoted to this...