Why Do Christians Need Proof A question from an atheist

[glenstein 0]

@Boozker- I once had someone tell me that public nudity should stay illegal because it went against his religion (Christianity), and after I pointed out several verses from both Old and New Testaments which involved public nudity being a-OK, and finding not a single one that condemned it, he still insisted. Some people just like to feel that all their personal opinions are supported by their "big guy in the sky", because in their eyes, that makes them infallible. Lots of times they'll "get away" with just making stuff up as they go, because come on, the Bible is so huge and contradictory that other people on the street can't rule it out unless they have the whole thing memorized.

I agree. There is a very strong will to stick with an argument, not for the facts, but, simply "because". Because you had invested in it and if you lose you look bad, or a part of you, a part of the way you thought the world worked is gone. More than any specific argument or belief, religious or not, is this fascinating and destructive tendency on self-insistence. I've seen it on this message board, and really it's shameful and sad.

 

I've heard from people serving on jury duty that they would get near a unanimous decision on an obvious case, and there would be one person insisting against towering mountains of fact and preventing the jury from coming to a conclusion, getting a hung jury on a case where there was no reason on earth for it to occur. More than any belief itself about religion, politics, etc. is the self investment one puts in it, where they have to maintain come hell or high water some substance of an argument. I would be willing to bet that all kinds of positions and beliefs held by people are held on account of some baser, more immediate appeal than that they carry factual weight, and so expending paragraphs in textbooks and hours of time in congress on debates is really beating around the bush, because the bush isn't the argument itself. It's about personal dignity, integrity, or something like that which gets crushed or destroyed if relinquished.

 

So I think most of the time, if you disagree with someone who is obviously wrong, you could engage them forcefully but in all likelyhood, despite having every fact in the world on your side, you could end up reinforcing the belief that you are trying to dispute. Better instead to address their willingness to commit to a certain belief. De-emphasize any urge to lift some bad idea (intelligent design, for example) to such a high altar that they start defining the world with it. If it becomes sacred to them it's too late, hence the fierceness of religion.

 

There is a great Bertrand Russel quote on this:

 

If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.

So in the grander scheme, combating that instinct is more important than any specific argument. Edited February 19, 2007 by glenstein (see edit history)

[curtis07 0]

Okay, I really don't want to take the time and try to read everything in this thread, but I have read enough to get the gist.Firstly, evolution is not really science. Science is the body of all knowledge of our universe. Evolution is just one of many theories to try and explain why things happen. And there's this cool thing about theories: one cannot prove a theory true! One can only prove a theory false. Then people revise the theory to work better. This has happened countless times with evolution. Evolution has never been, nor will be proven true. It has been proven false, then revised several times. Today's theories still cannot explain the first existence of matter in the universe, so I choose to believe in creationism, which has a very clear and logical explanation for the existence of matter. It simply (some think too simply) states that God always was and is and will be. He created everything. Evolution says that "in the beginning was the matter... and it exploded." That makes no sense to me. I ask where the matter came from and all I receive is a blank stare or a shrug.People say that it is blind faith to believe in creation. I say it takes faith, but not blind. I can see the complexity of the universe and I see fingerprints of a Creator. I don't look around and think to myself, "wow, that is some probability!" I also say that it takes faith to believe in evolution. I'm taking a statistics class currently. When something has less than a 5% chance of occurring, it is considered unlikely to have happened. The chance of a universe just coming into being is rather small. Writing the 0.000000 ... 00001% chance with all the zeros replacing the ellipsis would likely make me a few myCENTS dollars. I'm not doubting the possibility of either theory being correct. There is certainly the possibility of many things happening. I just think creation is more probable and likely.As for evidences against evolution, take the Law of Thermodynamics (the one that talks about entropy, etc.). It states that in a closed system, things go from order to disorder. You may think that the universe is not a closed system, but it is, when the entire thing is encapsulated (closed does not mean small). Besides, in the theory of the Big Bang (one of the theories tied to evolution and the origin of the universe), the system was a few atoms, or as some believe, a single atom, thus very small. Another major evidence against evolution is that no scientist EVER has reproduced any part of evolution in a lab. In fact, the definition of the word "mutation" doesn't allow for adding pieces of DNA. Mutation is the loss or switching of DNA, never adding. Which completely contradicts the idea that over billions of years the impossible has happened billions of times.While I see that there are certain evidences that suggest evolution is more likely than creation, there are fatal flaws with evolution. Creationism is just as valid a theory (if not more, as in my mind) as evolution.And Boozker, I'd like to know where in the Bible it mentions that public nudity is okay. I know that nudity was a symbol of shame. There are several mentions of naked people in the Bible, but never in a positive light that I can remember. Also, the Bible isn't that big. I've read almost all of it (I think I'm about 4 books shy of completing it), and it isn't contradictory at all, when taken in the correct context (Biblical time/language, etc.).I like to be educated in all ideas before deciding to believe in any one of them. For instance, I am a Christian, but I am reading the Qu'ran so I know where Muslims are coming from. I have almost read the entire Bible, and it looks pretty solid to me. I read articles and books discussing evolution, so I can see where the majority of Westerners come from. If you could see all the sides, you would more clearly understand the creationists' viewpoints.

[iGuest 3]

Why is so many people trying to say the world will end in 2012?Why Do Christians Need Proof

I believe in my opinion that people try to find out answers to questions that does not need to be answer. Everyone wants an explanation for everything. I wish people would stop setting dates for the world to end. Because in the bible it talks about Jesus will come back like a thief in the night stand that is when the world will end. But people of not of God try to say that the world end with out on December 21, 2012. I keep on telling people that how can the government put an end to the earth, how can a human predict the end of the earth they can not. God will come when every thought is not predicted on that day. Even famous rappers are saying things about this. It is irritating me. Because I say to these people who keep rambling on about this prophecy your so worried about the world ending and you fill that the government is trying to create a new race by killing us all . Then wouldn't you want to get your life right with God. Because apparently your believing garbage from utube. I believe that there is nothing new under the sun like it says in the bible. So, the governments always been corrupt, they are not Gods they are people, everyone in the government is not corrupt. Thats my opinion and I was explaining this to friends from school. I want people not to worry about some Maya calender that stops. I researched on the matter and people have blogs saying don't work, don't worry about buying a house or going to school live life. Now I think that is trash. I fill bad for those who believe this and are following what people outside of the church are saying. So, I want to know who has heard of this rumor and how do you fill about it.

-question by Jewels

 

[dre 0]

Truefusion, do you not accept microevolution?

[truefusion 3]

Truefusion, do you not accept microevolution?

While not explicitly mentioning adjectives before the word "evolution" or not defining things further can cause confusion, whenever i use the term "evolution" that bears ambiguity in a topic or debate, i don't entirely append everything there is to consider concerning evolution in general. The reason i have for this is that not everything concerning the theory of evolution contradicts creationism, therefore i only assume for the term "evolution" the things that do. Things like cancer or virues, et cetera, i do not really consider, because these things exist harmoniously with creationism.
But this is an old topic, i have better arguments now-a-days.

[iGuest 3]

Christian Americans have a skepticism about science because its so often wrong and politicized. Name any social or economic issue in the headlines and the New York Times will have a "scientist" weighing in and telling people what they should really think and do.The science of evolution assumes that humans are just one of a zillion animals roaming the earth that evolved their way up the food chain. This thinking in direct conflict with the the Christian view that man is unique because he has knowledge and free will, which he possesses because he was created in God's image. (FYI I'm not a Christian, more of a deist, but I have an extreme distrust of those who believe in moral relativism. For years scientists continued to tell us that humans and apes shared 99% of their DNA, which was just plain wrong to anyone with a pair of eyes. Now they say it's 6%, although they don't publicize it nearly as much. I bet it'll be about 15% when they really figure it out. Science doesn't have all of the answers, and those they do are about half wrong. Then they say "the verdict is in", that's meaningless and arrogant - they're supposed to be questioning not dictating.And how about the fossil record - inconvertible proof they say. Okay. So you have a hundred fossils collected millions of years apart and you put them in order. Now explain why the species changed from the first to the last over time. Don't say evolution - that word jsut means it changed. Tell me what changed. Why it changed. How it changed. How quickly it changed. Why it didn't change more or in some other wayIf you can't do any of that, but can just say "well, here we had some small dinosaurs and there we had big ones, and there we don't have any at all" then how can anyone say you have it figured out?There's a vast area that's obviously still unknown - and the greatest area is the gap between a human and other primates which, to any intelligent observer that doesn't have the scientific or moral objective of turning us into animals - is the greatest between any species and still, as far as we are all concerned, completely unexplained.Tristan

[Harlot 2]

I think that 'adriantc' makes the most logical sense here, however, one thing that disturbs be is that it appears that the consensus here is that all those who doubt the existence of God or a god supports the theory of evolution. Its really not that complicated for some people. It comes down to the idea that from their perspective, there is no evidence that God exist, and therefore they either don't believe or simply accept that they don't know.My perspective is that religion is fine. People should be allowed to believe whatever they wish, however, their religion should not be used to ostracize others to create a sense of abnormality for non-believers. In the south at least, I am not sure about other parts of the U.S., if you don't believe in God you are considered taboo. Why is it taboo to not believe in something that no one has proven to actually exist? You have to really ask yourself that question. The fact is the people decide the truth based on emotions and then they use their brain and validate what they feel. So when you will have is people trying to make a logical argument based on "feelings" which have been instilled in them from birth. However, I maintain the idea that everyone should be able to believe in whatever they wish. If people believe the truth is God, then thats fine. If person believe the truth is science, that is also fine. At the end of the day the painful truth is that neither side really know whats going on. People don't know why we are here and what we really are. We don't even know the meaning of our existence, if there is any meaning. Religion is popular because it provide simple answers for hard questions and use emotional attachments to solidify those answers into the minds of their followers. The truth is that no one knows what happens at death. No one knows why we are here on earth. No one knows. No one knows. Again and again, no one knows. Its scary not to know, but thats the truth. You pastor and the scientist do not know what the heck happens when we die. People get scared with the fact that we don't know if we cease to exist, go to heaven, go to heaven, reincarnate, or float around the earth. But that is the reality of things. If someone tells you that they know what will happen when you die, I'm sorry but that person is a liar as of now. In the subconscious people know that they really don't know. That is why people are afraid of death. If we knew what happened at death, there would be no reason to fear it. One girl or guy in another thread was saying he or she was afraid of graduating high school because he or she does not know what they are going to do after wards. People are afraid of the unknown and people continue to push forth the idea that they know when they do not. But the reason I really like religion is because some people don't really have time to think about their existence, death, or the unknown. They are busy working and trying to take care of their family, so religion is a way for them to have a simple answer and not have to think about those things. It is a way for them to have hope or find at least a little happiness from their existence. So thats pretty much the state of humanity. No one knows, but everyone claim to have the answer. However, if we take a look at history we will find that both scientist and theologists have been wrong time and time again. We all know that science does not come without error, so I will not even focus on that. Scientist and the scientific community already accepts the idea that they can be wrong about certain things. Look at the religious community, the idea that the earth was flat was once accepted just as much as the idea that a God exist. A flat world was validated by the Bible. You have to ask yourself if religion got that wrong, what else could be incorrect? There may certainly be truth, but why is it so hard to exist the idea that sometimes religion gets it wrong too? You can also look at the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition to show us the direction that we do not want to go. We could easily move back to those times because as I said, people decide things based on their emotions and they use their brain to validate it. So when you look at the brutality of those times and say, "I would never do that" you are wrong. If you think your God wants you to do it, they will do it. That is what those people thought. If you think that you God has ordered and commanded you to murder Atheist, and that it is the only path to heaven, you will murder Atheist. That is where religion gets dangerous, especially when you believe that a man (the Pope) can communicate with this God for you.

[mahesh2k 0]

The science of evolution assumes that humans are just one of a zillion animals roaming the earth that evolved their way up the food chain. This thinking in direct conflict with the the Christian view that man is unique because he has knowledge and free will, which he possesses because he was created in God's image. (FYI I'm not a Christian, more of a deist, but I have an extreme distrust of those who believe in moral relativism.

really ? but you know what, no christian can prove it at all. They'll just spam with posting bible quotes, it's said in bible and hence true type of quackery. i hear ya, you support christian views but you're not christian type.

 

For years scientists continued to tell us that humans and apes shared 99% of their DNA, which was just plain wrong to anyone with a pair of eyes.

Your source for claims against scientists ? evolutionists claim that humans and apes shared common ancestor, not common DNA. Get your sources right instead of following conservepedia and BS creationist websites.

 

And how about the fossil record - inconvertible proof they say. Okay. So you have a hundred fossils collected millions of years apart and you put them in order. Now explain why the species changed from the first to the last over time. Don't say evolution - that word jsut means it changed. Tell me what changed. Why it changed. How it changed. How quickly it changed. Why it didn't change more or in some other wayIf you can't do any of that, but can just say "well, here we had some small dinosaurs and there we had big ones, and there we don't have any at all" then how can anyone say you have it figured out?

All creationist can do is question up and don't want to understand. Even your creationism can't answer these question and instead wants to end up these questions by sayin "god did it or designer did it". I wonder you ever even read about fossil proofs of evolution. oh well, i'm answering to creationist lover.

[fermin25 3]

First of all, we all need proof to believe in something and I have proof to believe in God and in religion. There are some things that we all question about religion but in this thing of intelligent development and evolution theory, I think the following: Why the Evolution Theory contradices to the Bible??In the Genesis God created the earth and the sky and the seas, but in all the book it doesn?t said God created to the rabbits or the cows. So if in all the book nothing about the rabbits and cows is not mentioned, Why the book will mentioned to dinosaurs and apes. The apes are only animals since 3000 A.C. the people in Greece is researching and the science borned. But in almost 5 thousand years there is no evidence of the minimum evolution. Maybe the evolution is not present anymore?? No but if 100k years some advanced humans found a siames baby body in some mountain, if they conclude that thousand years ago the people borned in couples and they borned joined. They will be rigth?? They can conclude that before in the time the evolution conducts to the human being to be a solo being with independence and the baby doesnt born joined.The big bang theory is that a theory. I found that this is a ridicoulus theory. Since there is no proof of this but it is only accepted because there is no any other theory that can explain how the universe begin and why the universe is in expansion. The relativity theory is different because there are a lot of proof about this theory that is used in the satellite industry and in the optic and nuclear industry.We are christians, I don?t respect to the people who said that they don?t believe in anything because if something happen to them one day, a car accident for example the first they said is "My God". So we need proof we are humans and we have a brain, and we have to use it because if the brain is not used we fall in a capital sin.God is in everywhere, what more proof about God that see the stars in the sky in the nigth and enjoy the life or how the people who believe and practice with the faith have wonderful lifes without having a lot of problems and they live in a happy environment, doesn?t matter if they are poor or rich. Believe in God and if you want to make your own researchs about God and all the religion, do it. Because use your mind without prejugments is good. But I warn you about see that atheus programs or documentaries where you only see to Bill Maher saying that all the religion is so wrong. So if he believe that ok, but he started to say this to another people and this is ridiculous.God is our salvation and we can think, but no be heretics with the word.Bye.