Church Tries To Control God? 3rd secret out

[SisterMay 0]

The Catholic church want us to believe in God, Jesus, Mary etc... but why is it when people claim to have spoken to God, this same church poor water on the idea. Odd hey! Did three children speak with the mother of God in 1917 or not. If they didn't its a fraud. If they did...I found a site, which really puts the story of the 1917 Fatima apparitions into perspective. Once you realize that the witnesses to the apparitions were young children, you can quickly start to imagine the manipulation that might (would) have occurred. Our Lady would not have appeared to 3 innocent children and then frighten them with stories and visions of hell. That is absurd. Although this site is promoting a book (the one Mel Gibson has purchased for film rights) the simple synopsis of the events in Fatima make more sense than anything I have read. http://www.3rdsecretoffatima.com/

[wild20 0]

I don't like the Catholics beliefs because they say you need a Priest. Which you don't. The Bible says only one mediator between man and God. And that is Jesus Christ. Mary isn't anyone special, and I don't think she was born without sin. If she did, she could have saved us. Mary was definitely a tool used by god, but she was just another person. Another thing is that the Catholic Church also literally worships Saints. Which I thing is wrong. God gets all the glory, not anyone else. Just my opinion.As far as the appearances, I believe they are not real. Illusions. Maybe even the devil. Mary is not alive, she is waiting in the ground Christ's second coming. Only a few were selected to go to heaven without the pain of death. And the Bible doesn't say Mary was one of them.

[Togi 0]

I probably shouldn't mention any of my athiest views at all, in a thread like this, but I'll agree with ya. The more stuff you read, and the more you try to understand it for yourself instead of just having faith in what you've been told.... the less sense it actually makes ;.;I guess some people will say you just should have blind faith in your creator, since all of this 'God stuff' is too much for a mere person to understand... but I was born and raised in the Show Me state, so that's not good enough for me ^^;;(Not that there aren't a lot of Christians running around in Missouri.. I know my parents and sister are believers ^^; )

[morosophos 0]

I don't like the Catholics beliefs because they say you need a Priest. Which you don't. The Bible says only one mediator between man and God. And that is Jesus Christ. Mary isn't anyone special, and I don't think she was born without sin. If she did, she could have saved us. Mary was definitely a tool used by god, but she was just another person. Another thing is that the Catholic Church also literally worships Saints. Which I thing is wrong. God gets all the glory, not anyone else. Just my opinion.
As far as the appearances, I believe they are not real. Illusions. Maybe even the devil. Mary is not alive, she is waiting in the ground Christ's second coming. Only a few were selected to go to heaven without the pain of death. And the Bible doesn't say Mary was one of them.

The Catholic Church says a priest is needed in order to properly relate to the Bible. There are so many allusions to ancient culture, history, and language that people educated in such areas are almost mandatory to do any serious Bible study. The Church also prides itself in apastolic succession: every priest can be traced back through their trainers to the original apostles. So you see, there is reason behind having priests aid in interpreting the Bible.

As to Mary, she was not born without sin in the Catholic view. Mary was given absolution after she bore Christ, and she remained sinless thereafter.

As to Saints, Catholics do not worship them. They pray to them in order that they might intercede for them to God. The Saints are patrons and patronesses of various things, they understand in particular that of which they are patron. A zookeeper having troubles with his animals, for instance, may pray to St. Francis, who is patron saint of animals so he could better relate his worries to God. In no way do Catholics revere saints in the same way or on the same level as God.

Catholics also have sources for belief outside the Bible. They have to be some of the greatest bureaucrats and graphomaniacs ever to have existed, Catholics. Catholics have included in their Bibles books not contained in non-Catholic Bibles (Wisom, Sirach, Baruch, et al.) Catholic docrine also draws on Gnostic sources and writings not contained in any Bible I'm aware of.

[kasm 0]

The Catholic church want us to believe in God, Jesus, Mary etc... but why is it when people claim to have spoken to God, this same church poor water on the idea. Odd hey! Did three children speak with the mother of God in 1917 or not. If they didn't its a fraud. If they did...

 

I found a site, which really puts the story of the 1917 Fatima apparitions into perspective. Once you realize that the witnesses to the apparitions were young children, you can quickly start to imagine the manipulation that might (would) have occurred. Our Lady would not have appeared to 3 innocent children and then frighten them with stories and visions of hell. That is absurd. Although this site is promoting a book.....

1. Before I start, I say that I am Coptic Orthodox Christian and not Roman Catholic.

 

2.In every religion, there are initial basic faith. That why it is called faith. you have to believe it or not. but there are many in re legions is not basic faith and you apply your mind and not be blind eyed. All Christian are believing in these elements.

 

3. In Christianity, the core elements is believing in Salvation, Trinity, bible. In Islam you believe in one God "Alaha" and Mohamed is his messenger then believe in Koran book is from Alah.

 

4. It is not right to say that you need a priest to communicate with God (Alah). People before Abraham and after him are communicating with God until our days. There are many recent communication stories of communicating with God or St Mary or other saints. Churches is not opposing that or controlling that. Only churches investigate the claim if it was gone public and they have right to do that.

 

5. The priest is needed for other service other than the communication with God. It is similar to that you need Parliament, government to practice your rights and your freedom.

 

6. Many call to not faith blinded but in the same time they was lead with one film here or one book there and in our Internet time one site . It is very contradiction thing or Hippocratic.

 

7. There are many stories in Egyptian monasteries about God communication. Of course you will jump to say what prove that? You can not say that while some believe in one book here or one film there. In next paragraph will tell you my experience when I saw St Mary by myself personally

 

8. SisterMay concluded wrongly "Our Lady would not have appeared to 3 innocent children and then frighten them with stories and visions of hell". But what if I tell that I saw St Mary in 1968 when I was 25 years old after four year from my graduation of Faculty of Science. The witnesses were millions with the media. I saw her when St Marry was appeared for many days around the top of St marry Church at Zeitoun of Cairo in Egypt and millions saw that [including Muslims]. I couldn't stand in one place from people pressure. I had to move with the crowd with the flow through the four perpenduclar steet around the Church. The Vatican has sent their delegation to investegat and confirmed that [this church is not Catholic Church]. All skeptics , unbelievers, non-christian, non-orthodox exhusted all their investgations to explain the mattert. So please don't jump to quick explanation and find simple explanation sitting in your place. Even the Egyptian Islamic government recognized that and gifted the opposite land [was government bus depot] to build another bigger church. It was the easiest church built in Egypt without the hard condition to build a church.

 

For details visit:

- RealVideo clips on the apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Zeitoun, Egypt (1968-1971)

- The Apparitions of the Blessed Holy Virgin Mary to Millions in the Coptic Orthodox Church in Zeitoun, Cairo, Egypt (1968-1970)

- Mr. Wagih Rizk Collection of Photos of the Zeitoun Apparitions of Virgin Mary and the Story of the Great Miracle the Virgin Did to Him

- Scraps and Photos from Arabic Newspapers on the Apparitions of Virgin Mary at Zeitoun, Egypt (Translated to English)

- Scraps and Photos from English and French Newspapers on the Apparitions of Virgin Mary at Zeitoun, Egypt

- Onlline Book: When Millions Saw Mary - Zeitoun (1968-1971) by Francis Johnston

- Online Book: Our Lord's Mother Visits Egypt in 1968 & 1969 by Pearl Zaki

Edited March 3, 2006 by kasm (see edit history)

[Ao)K-General 0]

Worshipping Saints is a bad thing. In the Ten Commandments, one of them is,"Though shall not worship any other God(person) before me." It's something like. (I don't know how to spell the first word ) But you should only worship God and not anyone else. Otherwise your going against the Ten Commandments, something you believe in and think you follow.

[kasm 0]

Worshipping Saints is a bad thing. In the Ten Commandments, one of them is,"Though shall not worship any other God(person) before me. But you should only worship God and not anyone else. Otherwise your going against the Ten Commandments, something you believe in and think you follow.

1. I am Coptic Orthodox not Roman Catholic. We have not statues in our Churches but we have pictures. We also ask intercession of saints especiall St Mary.

 

2. Even I am noy Catholic but the truth is they are not worship St Mary .

 

3. When you ask intercession of saints you do as when ask somebody else to pray for you or when askink people to pray for someone in intensive care in hospital.

 

4. When you bow before picture, you show the respect. It is exactly as you bow for King or Queen or bishop or parents in olden days.

 

5. Dislike Protestant , St Mary has her position in Othodox Churches as the mother of God and Catholic give her more status. She who was suffering the accusation during her pregnancyfrom her relative and her city. She who saw her son crocified then assended from the earth i.e misseed him. How we consider her as anybody else. Do we reward the soldiers for their activities and sacrifies?

 

6. But I assure you that no Christian in any section worship other God in trinity.

 

7. We respect and honour saints. We regularly give it to public officials. In the United States, australia and Eurpean countrireies, it is customary to address a judge as "Your Honor." In Australia , member of parlament are addressed to "The Honorable member ...." . God commanded us to honour our parents. Many examples in new or old testament to honour old peoples, bishops, priests, rulers,... etc. So, if there can be nothing wrong with honoring the living, who still have an opportunity to ruin their lives through sin, there certainly can be no argument against giving honor to saints whose lives are done and who ended them in sanctity. If people should be honored in general, God?s special friends certainly should be honored.

 

8. By the way for many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British, Australian and may others refer to their magistrates as "Your Worship,". An attempt to distinguish between the honor due to God and that due to humans is to use the words adore. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, "We adore God but we honor his saints"

 

9. May be some public naive people don't understand these explanations. In my opinion, it was better that these practices to be stoped in public to stop this unnecessary discussions.

[CroSpartacus 0]

I am a Catholic and we do not "worship" Saints. We only pray to them for guidance and to pray for us. Same thing with the Virgin Mary, we do not consider her as God-like and we do not worship her. We only pray to them for guidance and to pray for us.

[wild20 0]

But the saints are dead. It says in the Bible the dead know not anything. You are in the ground until Christ comes again. And you don't need a Priest to even relate to the Bible. The Bible was made for all. Anyone can read it. And back to the Saints. We are to pray to God alone for guidance. You don't pray to your mother, even though she may have been a very good person. That is where the problem comes in.And with Mary, that is nbot actually what movies made by the Ctholic people are saying. I just saw one that was created in honor of Bernadette. And it was VERY clear, that they meant to say that Mary was born without sin.

Edited February 20, 2006 by wild20 (see edit history)

[serverph 0]

INTERPRETATION, that's what everything is for me. interpretations vary with every individual, even if they are of the same religion. most likely that interpretation will widely vary coming from those outside of a different religion. if anything, RELIGION as well as the Bible are products OF man (notwithstanding the claim of divine inspiration blah-blah wielded by every other religious when it was put into writing). in religious matters, it is always a result of INFLUENCE -- by other men/women, by other books, by other "authorities". and as such, interpretation will NOT always be the same for everyone owing to the FACT that not every man have the same EXACT influences. there will be as many interpretations possible as as there are sands in the sea, or stars in the sky.

 

in LIFE, there will ALWAYS be oppositions. but there will be people who will dare say they are the bearers of TRUTH, i'm sure of that, as it is apparent in every religious thread in this forum. BUT how sure can one be of THE TRUTH, clinging on words of an "authority" inspired/created/produced by man? AND why should we trouble ourselves with other people's interpretation -- when at the end of the day, everything will be BETWEEN YOU and YOUR GOD?

 

what i want to simply say is, keep it personal, since it is merely varying interpretation which creates the conflict -- when everything that counts most is the personal relationship one has with his/her God.

[HoRuS 0]

The Catholic church want us to believe in God, Jesus, Mary etc... but why is it when people claim to have spoken to God, this same church poor water on the idea. Odd hey! Did three children speak with the mother of God in 1917 or not. If they didn't its a fraud. If they did...

 

I found a site, which really puts the story of the 1917 Fatima apparitions into perspective. Once you realize that the witnesses to the apparitions were young children, you can quickly start to imagine the manipulation that might (would) have occurred. Our Lady would not have appeared to 3 innocent children and then frighten them with stories and visions of hell. That is absurd. Although this site is promoting a book (the one Mel Gibson has purchased for film rights) the simple synopsis of the events in Fatima make more sense than anything I have read.

 

Well it is kinda obvious they want people to follow their faith... I hope people will arise to this brainwash religions, all of 'em. I think it has nothing to do with God with pourring water over a babies head nor cutting a piece of one's genetals. It is all about power and oppression.

 

It is known children can see, feel, hear and talk to spirits, angels, souls and all that, but usually people are scared for what they can't see and say that it is their imagination. Children might have talken to Mary (she ain't no mother of God, merely the mother of a prophet) because children are closer to 'God' then adults, since adult's minds get filled with lies and false stories about the 'God' they worship, wich were only entities playing with the human minds and masking Gaia's vortexes with false energies.

 

But back on topic... Spirits, souls and such can manifest to a beholder they way the beholder wants to see them, e.g. if he/she is religious, they will appear as Mary or other religious persons so the beholder does not get frightened before they show what they want the beholder to see. Holy spirits showing hell (wich doesn't even exist, since we make our own hell on this world) that doesn't make sense, if it were the real spitits of maria and such, they would bring whole other messages then showing hell. I think it were only some Earth-bound souls wich were trapped in their own misery wich they shown to the children in a way comprehensive to the human brain, and the whole thing really got blown up, since they manifested as Mary.

[epox 0]

i have personal problems with church and religion, not with god, everytime i talk about tf chatolic church i have a lot of problems, i don't know why, if i'm telling the truth about that, i always finish against all the people's opinions, or discussing with my mother's friends, or apologizing, or simply shut up.i think all the church says is a big lie, there is no word that is truth in the mouth of that repressed priests, they always talk about good behaviour, love your brother, equality, be a good neighbor, help the needed, and a lot of garbage that they never aply, they only think in have a good car, eat as well, request charity to have their stomachs filled with the best food, meet girls or even worse boys with sexual goals, and a lot of things that makes me sick.the church is really stink, they say all that they say with comertial intentions, for example, if i'm not bad, benedict will accept homosexuals because they have banished since they are no accepted, they promess the heaven, and recently deny the devil's existence, all this is to get people's attention. even, the pope has gatherings with the most important presidents of the world, and it is sure with no good intentions, all they want is to opress the people under it's stinking racionalism, like a crowd of sheeps, wating to be skinned.well, that's my opinion, i don't hate chatolics, but i'm tired to listen about the end of the world, and a lot of other fool things that every year stupid priests shout it loud. But there is something funny in all this, someday nobody will believe all his lies, because they speak so much shhhhh.....

[wild20 0]

The point is Server, that only ONe interpretation is correct. All others are null and void. Unless you agree that God speaks out of two sides of His mouth. Which we know He doesn't. And another thing. Jesus Christ didn't come down here to die, just so a Priest could help you with your sins and do so many Hail Mary's and count your Rosary bead. I guess the point is, you don't earn your way to heaven. It is a free gift. You don't need to pray or worship to Saints. You don't need to count Rosary beads and do Hail Mary's, you need to accept God, follow Him with faith and a pure heart, and then trust He will do something with you and forgive your sin. And even though you may fail, you pick yourself back up, and try harder asking God to help you do better next time and to send His guidance. Sure a Pastor or Priest can help you, but not with sins. This is where I see a problem with the catholic faith. Sure people like it because they feel secure. They think they can pray their relatives to heaven, or do things to forgive their sins. It just isn't needed and I know no one could find scripture to back these up. It doesn't exist.

[serverph 0]

The point is Server, that only ONe interpretation is correct. All others are null and void. Unless you agree that God speaks out of two sides of His mouth. Which we know He doesn't. And another thing. Jesus Christ didn't come down here to die, just so a Priest could help you with your sins and do so many Hail Mary's and count your Rosary bead. I guess the point is, you don't earn your way to heaven. It is a free gift. You don't need to pray or worship to Saints. You don't need to count Rosary beads and do Hail Mary's, you need to accept God, follow Him with faith and a pure heart, and then trust He will do something with you and forgive your sin. And even though you may fail, you pick yourself back up, and try harder asking God to help you do better next time and to send His guidance. Sure a Pastor or Priest can help you, but not with sins. This is where I see a problem with the catholic faith. Sure people like it because they feel secure. They think they can pray their relatives to heaven, or do things to forgive their sins. It just isn't needed and I know no one could find scripture to back these up. It doesn't exist.

i won't argue with you on that since that is YOUR interpretation. and again, an interpretation based on your religious influences. RELIGION is a creation of man, prone to error, and misinterpretations. my qualm is people/individuals are SO adamant in "raising hell" (PUN intended) that they have the ONE interpretation purported to be correct. obviously, they are SO DAMN SURE about it, as if they were God Himself. only GOD can say, when you are already in His grace, among the angels and saints and prophets and everything else in his kingdom -- IF you are correct. in as much as individuals don't need priests nor pastors (who have MORE authority to be believed in, since they have submitted themselves to learn about his/her religion in depth) to have a meaningful relationship with God, we also don't need other people (more so, with LESS or NO authority at all to talk religion) to give us a tutorial on one's personal beliefs.

[kasm 0]

But the saints are dead. It says in the Bible the dead know not anything. You are in the ground until Christ comes again. And you don't need a Priest to even relate to the Bible. The Bible was made for all. Anyone can read it. And back to the Saints. We are to pray to God alone for guidance. You don't pray to your mother, even though she may have been a very good person. That is where the problem comes in....

1. Of course you have to read bible in person. Churches encourage that.

 

2. You have to pray alone home direct without a priest. Churches teaches you that.

 

3. But we need Priests in Church and for sacrements especially babtist, confirmation (one time in life) , confession and communion.. Also you need them for mariage if you decide to be married (better than the registerar). The church need someone to be demenstrate their day by day activity. . For non self learners need some one to explain faith matter (this can be any and not necessary the priest). I don't feel Priest intervene in my relation with God.

 

4. The Catholics says that "We pray with saints, not to them." or "we ask saints to pray for us in times of trouble" We bow for them as respect and not to worship . Then why we condemn them. It is not christian character to condemn others. . Does a Protestant who judges the praying with saints, bear false witness against the prayer.

 

5. This remind me with the situation in which muslems insist that we have three Gods. I told my muslem friends , you are think wrongly. If in our geed we say "We believe in one God" so it is wrong to insist that we believe in three and you have to stop and say "there is something we don't understand or imigine. How Christians believe in one God but in trinity form.? So I reply as "sun" has the body, the heat and the light. We say that "earth go around sun", "I can't sit in the sun's heat", and "in daytime, we enjoy sun's light.

 

6. In fact, Scriptures are quite clear that the saints are not dead [life after death]. Read what Jesus said on the cross to? the right malefactors? that h'll be in paradise with him TODAY:

Luke 23:43 - And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

also in replying to question from the Sadducees:

..have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Mt 22:33).}.

 

?7. By the way, I am personally is not bowing and rarely asking their intresection. But I don't condemn others who do . Also I confess that I asked few times the intersection of St Mary as well as my late mother too..