Americans And School Shocked

[elrohir 0]

If you ask me, it's not only the education, but the whole social system of the US that is... in a poor state... The unbalance is extreme. 50% of the wealth held by 1% of the population? To me, something like that is sick, insane, despicable, whatever you want. Now, I wasn't there long, so I can't claim much experience.

 

I used to attend a Norwegian public school, which was *BLEEP* and didn't teach you anything. Well, it did, but I think the idea was to keep the class at the level of the "worst" student. And everyone else can just do some more work (of the same kind) until that student's brain has developed sufficiently to follow along - in most cases, for the rest of your school life, since there is absolutely no point for the slow one to even make an effort, since the teachers are catering on them hand and foot. They did, however, teach English as of the second grade (ages 7-8), so most students go out of school with a relatively good spoken English. Even in second grade I had better English than the teacher, but that's beside the point. I'm not native Norwegian.

 

After moving, I'm in an international school (in Norway ), and I must say I like it much better than anything I saw during my stay in the US. Most of the students have been travelling for most of their lives, and have had the benefit of the more... shall we say "open-minded"?... education that the international schools are forced to give. And oddly enough, it's the students who come right from the US who have the hardest time adapting.

 

I just heard most US citizens don't actually have a passport. Is this true? I mean... damn...

 

Now, we studied the US's independence last year (it's 231 years ago, btw...), and I honestly don't see the point in memorising it (we didn't have to). It's much more important to understand what it's saying it, and how it says it. The diplomacy Jefferson uses is something that today's US is missing.

 

For me, school is not something that I will ever base my career on. School builds a foundation for universities to work on, and it's the university that trains you for your career. Unless you are planning to go into manual labour or something, I guess.

 

If the world was the way I wanted it to be, people would not learn too much more than they had to do to earn a comfortable living - a solid understanding of the world, of course - I mean what is the point of learning all the algebra if you want to become a truck driver (which is quite a good living, here)? The middle ages was a better time to live in (of course that has nooothing to do with the fact that the US hadn't been overpopulated yet), if only because people led a simpler life. And if anyone's wondering, which they are not, I would have been a blacksmith (well, blacksmith's apprentice at the moment, I guess...).

 

Of course, you couldn't change your station, but most people didn't feel the need to. And if this comes from the fact that the Church's teachings brainwashed them into it, so what? They were better off, no argument. But now I am supporting Christianity, which is not what I usually do, so I had better stop now before I do something worse.

[dre 0]

I would just like to point out that most students from other countries go to school about 3 more years than Americans do.Now ponder on these questions: Who has the world's best economy? Where do most people want to go in search of a better life?I have a feeling that if you forget about the averages and pick out say, the 100 smartest people from every school from all the countries and compare then, suddenly, the differences would seem to disappear.

[sylenzednuke 0]

I would just like to point out that most students from other countries go to school about 3 more years than Americans do.
Now ponder on these questions: Who has the world's best economy? Where do most people want to go in search of a better life?
I have a feeling that if you forget about the averages and pick out say, the 100 smartest people from every school from all the countries and compare then, suddenly, the differences would seem to disappear.

Well, I graduated high school at 14. And in American it's 18 years of age I guess?

And aren't these things changing so rapidly now? Best economy? Better life? People go in search for a better life, how many make it to a better life? The differences still will be there no matter how hard you try. It's not that just what we know is a result of the things we are taught, but the way our minds utilizes itself, the way we think, it's all affected by the education system at some point of time for sure.

[elrohir 0]

I would just like to point out that most students from other countries go to school about 3 more years than Americans do.
Now ponder on these questions: Who has the world's best economy? Where do most people want to go in search of a better life?
I have a feeling that if you forget about the averages and pick out say, the 100 smartest people from every school from all the countries and compare then, suddenly, the differences would seem to disappear.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? 3 more years? I will graduate at 18. The US is 8.8 trillion of its precious dollars in debt. As sylenzednuke said, how many of those actually make their lives better? If you forgot about the averages, you are no longer talking about the common education, which is what this thread is talking about.

And don't even think of saying that the US has the highest living standards. You might want to do some homework before you post.

Anyway, back to topic...

[dre 0]

Last time I checked, the 8.8 trillion or whatever deficit wasn't affecting me...

I immigrated here, I would know what I'm talking about. Please give examples of some countries where you will have the same amount of financial freedom and the opportunities as the USA.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? 3 more years? I will graduate at 18.

Think about what you read yourself, I won't do that for you. It means that when you're 21, people from other countries usually are as smart as you will be at 21 while they are 18.
The American system is designed with the dream to send off every single student to college, which obviously won't happen. Many will not go on, and the very few that actually care what their grades will be should be counted in the scoring. Those who have already made up their mind that they won't be going to college will not become bums as there are plenty of high-paying jobs that don't need a college degree. The educational system of many other countries is different. The top 10% of the students will be sent to college, all fees paid. The rest will be taught trade jobs and things that they will be good at, so that way resources aren't spent on dead ends. So this way you have a small percentage whose scores are real and most of the rest who are unsure where they will go and many who will not try in school, better yet some stupid tests. Only the few who are planning to move on should be tested, the rest of the results are irrelevant. (BTW if this system is different in your country, notice how I said most)

You might want to do some homework before you post.

I myself immigrated from Ukraine where my family used to make $60 a month, and now in the USA we make at least $180k/year. I've never heard of a single person who came here and decided that life was better back home. So obviously I know what I'm talking about. Edited June 3, 2007 by dre (see edit history)

[elrohir 0]

I knew this would turn into a flame thread I suppose I'm either some idealistic hippie or a commie b4stard...

 

Last time I checked, the 8.8 trillion or whatever deficit wasn't affecting me...

I never said it was, but you did say that the US had the world's strongest economy.

 

Think about what you read yourself, I won't do that for you. It means that when you're 21, people from other countries usually are as smart as you will be at 21 while they are 18.

I can live with that. It also means that I can take both the IGCSEs and the IB and have the liberty to choose from most universities. Take into account that the university system works differently in "most other countries", so being 21 doesn't always have anything to do with it.

 

Please give examples of some countries where you will have the same amount of financial freedom and the opportunities as the USA.

Well, I can list the countries I have lived in...

Norway

England

France (education in France is terrible, though; unless private)

Belgium

the Netherlands

Scotland

Ireland

And I'm sure there was something I was too young at the time to actually give a reliable account of.

 

I know those are all in Europe, but apart from the dint in the US, I haven't lived outside it. So in that respect, my knowledge is limited.

 

So you make more money now. I'm going to ignore the fact that things cost more (and the fact that you now have more "needs" to supply for), and just go on to the people that didn't make it. You go to any large city in the US (well, anywhere...) and there are people on the street dying of hypothermia every single night. Now, for a country with "the world's best economy", that's not to hot, is it. And to think of where the money in this good old place is going...

 

I am also an immigrant, and we have moved often since we first came to Norway. As I said, mostly within Europe, but I feel that that has given me if not the experience of all cultures, which would be impossible, then at least enough experience to judge what I see, and to figure out how it affects me.

 

Should we move the thread to the spam forum? Wait, there isn't one here, is there. Pity I can't do a proper flame, then. I'm really in the mood for it.

[nol 0]

Its only because what does it really have to do with us anyways? I mean sure its the law and everything..but usually its expected you just know who wrote it, nobody really cares whats in it. At least thats what they teach us here.

[biscuitrat 0]

Some people are genuinely ignorant and completely oblivious to the fact that an education could JUST MAYBE be a good thing. It frustrates me sometimes when people will turn in made up answers to questions they should have known, or complain that an assignment that they learned to do in class is difficult.This, however, does not fit either of those cases.I too have confused certain things in my head. As far as I'm concerned, as long as these students know what the Declaration of Independence stood for, and what the Constitution stood for, and are able to analyze both documents, that part of a government requirement is fulfilled. The rest is an intense memory game. I have committed the preamble to memory since elementary school -- however, aside from my Quiz Bowl team and perhaps Jeopardy, that information is seldom used. It is the same for the opening line of the Declaration of Independence. While the subject matter is ever so important, the actual line can be forgotten without too much worry. I don't like that it's being confused or forgotten, but I'm sure that I would have mistaken it, had I been reasonably distracted.It's memory, not intellect, that's at stake here. Some people can remember things and others cannot. To hold them to having an absolutely all-consuming memory is ridiculous. It's not about America, or Americans (though we are getting rather fat and lazy); it's about memory. Give these guys a break.As for the rest of what they said, my first paragraph ought to prove adequate

[elrohir 0]

Its only because what does it really have to do with us anyways? I mean sure its the law and everything..but usually its expected you just know who wrote it, nobody really cares whats in it. At least thats what they teach us here.

What does it have to do with you? Everything!
Isn't it more important to know what the thing is saying that who wrote it? The writers are dead and rotted away, yet what they wrote is (mostly) still applicable.

At least thats what they teach us here.

And what do YOU think?

[dre 0]

Some people are genuinely ignorant and completely oblivious to the fact that an education could JUST MAYBE be a good thing.

Yes, but we can't have everyone be a doctor now can we? Adam Smith's ideas come true.

I never said it was, but you did say that the US had the world's strongest economy.

That's correct, with the "debt" and all, it's the worlds strongest economy. Wonder why the Chinese and a lot of minorities buy out American debt so eagerly...maybe they know it's a great investment and that they'll be paid back fully and on time...

Well, I can list the countries I have lived in...Norway
England
France (education in France is terrible, though; unless private)
Belgium
the Netherlands
Scotland
Ireland
And I'm sure there was something I was too young at the time to actually give a reliable account of.

Enjoy your tax rates then. Out of that list I'd say Belgium's tax rates are tolerable, everybody else is ridiculous (highest there is 85% tax rate I believe)... Corporate tax rates that is, not income. Despite that, tax rates like that here would surely spark outrage. So let's say you want to make a company. Do you start one here in the U.S.A. with about 7.5% tax or in one of those countries listed where you might be able to get away with about 40-50% if you're lucky? Wow that's a hard choice... Such great incentives to work for when 1/2 your money is taken. No wonder why so many move to the U.S.

So what's the point? Well, if you're in the US, you can be an entrepreneur without having any degree. In fact, most of the entrepreneurs I know are college dropouts who said screw the system and found their own way, a better way. Education doesn't dictate our economic strength, and never has, so that means we're doing something right.

Should we move the thread to the spam forum? Wait, there isn't one here, is there. Pity I can't do a proper flame, then. I'm really in the mood for it.

Hilarious, it's a mystery why I never see you on Comedy Central. Oh wait...spam actually means replying with a 2-3 word post, or something like "lol"...Oh, there goes your chance for fame.
Edited June 4, 2007 by dre (see edit history)

[etycto 0]

Are Americans so stupid that after taking 12 years of school, that after they enter college, taking college level courses, they still do not know the difference between the Declaration and the Constitution?

i dont beleive its as much stupidity but lack of appreciation. in my years of being in america i found that those who are born here take too much advantage of their "rights" and even abuse them. the worst thing is the whole "freedom of speech thing" kids especialy, thinks that "freedom of speech" gives you the right to be rude and curse someone out.
and worst off all they dont realise that the ignoranece, of their own contries legal system, allows many body to take advantage of them. until americans realise how "lucky" they are they're not going to bother to know the diference between the constitution and the decloration.

Its only because what does it really have to do with us anyways? I mean sure its the law and everything..but usually its expected you just know who wrote it, nobody really cares whats in it. At least thats what they teach us here.

are you serious, just knowing who wrote it is not going to stop some cops, and scamer from taking advantage of you

[elrohir 0]

That's correct, with the "debt" and all, it's the worlds strongest economy. Wonder why the Chinese and a lot of minorities buy out American debt so eagerly...maybe they know it's a great investment and that they'll be paid back fully and on time...

Actually, one of the reasons that nobody worries about the debt is that it will never be paid back, and there's nothing anyone can do with it. China and "a lot of minorities" don't mind anymore because they only lent the money they didn't need and because it gives them the opportunity to rape the US market - aka filling the shops with cheap crap.

In time? That's hilarious. The debt hasn't gone down in ages, and it's not about to do so now, is it... (Yes, I know about replacement, but still.... 8.8 trillion...) If the US has such a damn strong economy, it might as well just pay them back, right? Or perhaps give public schools all of the funding they need?

 

Yes, I do enjoy the tax rates. I'm not about to start a business, so the business taxes don't bother me at all. I can tell you, though, that 85% is bullsh*t. You can shoot whoever told you that (though I will tend to believe that it randomly popped up from the depths of you own brain).

From Wikipedia, the total average in Norway (I'm using that because it's the country I have stayed longest in and that I am most familiar with) goes between 37.3% and 29.6%.

What I think you need to realise is that the social structure is completely different. There are few poor people. There are few extremely rich people.

 

I think what you might be referring to is "Oljefondet", which is the tax levied on petrol. Yes, compared to your give-away prices, this is expensive. It does not, however, affect people the same way it would you, since few people (perhaps as a result) insist on driving large/high consumption cars. (What is the point of an SUV if you are only going to drive on roads?) It has reduced the spontaneous growth that would normally have occurred as a result of the international oil-sale.

 

So what's the point? Well, if you're in the US, you can be an entrepreneur without having any degree. In fact, most of the entrepreneurs I know are college dropouts who said screw the system and found their own way, a better way. Education doesn't dictate our economic strength, and never has, so that means we're doing something right.

If education plays such a small role in future success, then quite obviously there's something wrong with the education system, which, in case you had forgotten, is what this thread is about.

 

Hilarious, it's a mystery why I never see you on Comedy Central. Oh wait...spam actually means replying with a 2-3 word post, or something like "lol"...Oh, there goes your chance for fame.

There's a difference between a flame and a spam. And why would I want a job there anyway? American humour sucks... (They never seem to get sarcasm right. It's always to obvious. Do they know what "subtle" means?)

[dre 0]

If education plays such a small role in future success, then quite obviously there's something wrong with the education system, which, in case you had forgotten, is what this thread is about.

OMG dude are you serious? Honestly, learn the skills of critical reading before you talk to me, this is freakin ridiculous.

The debt hasn't gone down in ages

Hey genius, does that mean that 0% of it is being paid off?

And why would I want a job there anyway? American humour sucks

Oh yea, my boss isn't hilarious so I'm totally going to quit my job... (FIY, channels from you country can be viewed here so you can enjoy all the subtleness that you want)

85% is bullsh*t

What part of highest possible don't you understand? I managed to get the 40-50% fairly right didn't I?

What is the point of an SUV if you are only going to drive on roads?

Maybe because going shopping here is the equivalent of driving halfway through most European countries?

[joeblogg 0]

that seems strange that they don't know the difference between the declaration and the constitution but i guess everyone has memory blanks or something lol.