Abortion

[nehemiah 0]

As a Vegetarian I have to asy Abortion is SIN, Because my basic belief is killing lives is sin. So I don't knwo how about your view, but a vegan will never appreciate abortion.

[emma 0]

honestly who gives a crap it's a sin!? People have sex before marrige, it's a sin. People Lie, it's a sin. People do tons of things that are in teh eyes of god a sin! Why not abortion? Pro choice means choice that does NOT mean that the baby will always die. Giving a person choice means giving a person the right to change how their life will be. You choose everything in your life except parents and siblings. You choose the family you raise, so, why can't they decide WHEN they WANT a family.

[wild20 0]

On the contrary, Emma, pro-choice gives the person the option to kill (aka, abort) the baby. No it doesn't mean the baby will always die, but it does mean a lot will. Of course you can decide when you want a family, but you know what, then be sensable and instead of killing a forming baby, keep it safe!! Personally, I don't believe in sex before marriage anyway.Funny though, no one can deny that the baby is a living thing? This means that you again accept that the baby is being actually KILLED. But of course, the murder of a 8 year old child is manslaughter. No comments? Why? Its pretty pitiful.

[nehemiah 0]

I don't tihnk sex before marriage is sin, because for me the first ex is marrage, So if you marry another person after had sex with a person is sin. About manslaughter, it is really cruel thing to think about

[emma 0]

lol wild20 I don't see why you are even here! lol Men couldn't possibly grasp the fact of rape or being pregnant. People ake bad choices why can't they fix them? People do kill 8 year olds, but, that child knows the world. The baby inside of the mother isn't even a living thing after 3 and a half months.Also, when did I say that the baby was living before 3 months? It isn't formed yet therefore it can be destroyed and not killed. Now after three months I believe that would be HORRIBLE!

[wild20 0]

I am saying I will ever understand. But what I am telling you is that your are KILLING a LIVE baby. There are several things that classifies a thing as living. One is if it grows by cell splitting.Can you also please discern between destroyed and killed? A murderer can say he destroyed a life. He could also say he killed someone. It is the same. Also, would it make a big difference if the baby was a year old? It doesn't know the world then either? You don't have the power to discern whether a life is a life or not, because it is always a life. If s sperm were killed, I wouldn't really think much of it because it happens naturally. You are talking about taking a childs life inot your own hands. Why? Why if that could be the only great person to change a bad situation? Why take the risk? Why not adopt it out and give it the chance? Why. Will someone please explain why it would be SO bad to give it a chance!?

[emma 0]

Because having a baby is expensive. Docters visits, going to a hospital! It all costs money and not eveyr is rich. Also, please just leave the board! Nobody is ever going to take a man seriously when he talks about keeping the baby. Its horrible to be pregnant. Sickness, fat, life down the drain! Just leave! Nobody is taking you seriously. You can't talk at all! How about we rape you and tell you to keep the baby and enjoy 9 months of your life down the drain waking up every morning with that horrible reminder of what happend. Not being married and being sick! YOU TRY IT AND GET THE *BLEEP* OFF THIS BOARD!

[ashiezai 0]

abortion?? hmmm ... this is a big issue but not a new issue .. it has been there for a long long time .... people should be aware of and take steps and cautions to prevent pregnancy ... if not an unplanned pregnancy may lead to abortion ... personally i do think that the baby is innocent ... and people woh abort them are just killing them ... they are lifes .... they will one day become you and me ...

[wild20 0]

Whoa! Calm down. I will not be leaving the board. Keep cool during a debate. If you don't like the debate then you don't have to be involved in it. There are organizations that will help with delivery expenses. And let me bring the question around again, why would you want to destroy a life that although made through something bad, can turn into something good. I was researching and there was a baby who was a baby that came from a rape and he wa adopted and becme a government official and actually did something for society. What if it was the one person who would actually help stop rape? Would you feel differently then? I am sorry you feel this way, but its out of bitterness from a horrible deed. Was it the baby's fault? No, then why punish it?You aren't grasping the long run circumstances but instead, focusing how you can get that baby out of existence. I do believe that about over half the people who have posted here have also agreed with me.

[emma 0]

But, was it the mother's fault that she was raped? NO! I can stand a debate but, when you would know nothing and the only way you know these things is RESEARCH then you shouldn't be on this board. Abortion is not a mans job to decide. Abortion is a WOMENS debate. I don't see you walking around any time soon with a 4 month old thing inside of you. Getting fat and making you sick. They HELP with expenses. But, what about the girls who can't even afford a new pari of shoes every year. Why should they have to be homless while they have a life inside of them they didn't even want. If you take abortion away women will kill the baby some other way. Rich women will go to another countries. Poor women will kill it with a hanger. Normal women may keep teh baby but, they'll just be stuck with it...or kill it themselves or fly to other countries.One baby becomes a gonvernt official and now every life in the world is precious!? No, ONE out of Millions. The world is over populated already. Look at China. They can't have abortions and they are WAY over populated and have a kid limit.Now, please leave the dabate because you don't belong here anyways.Go to hell, Emma

[nehemiah 0]

Well any person can think in TWO ways. 1. Spiritual way. 2. Social way. It will be hard to agree this, but you have to agree, both are mutually disjoint. If a man think social and for its benefit then he has to put God back and then he hast to take decision, because the concept of god and spiritual activity will never bring solution for social problems and economical problems unless the whole country believe in god and spiritualism. So a good social thinker will think opinions in such a way that it will be adaptable and useful for non believers also. Of course you can not expect in a whole country everybody spiritual people. So what I feel conclude is. Abortion is not wrong if I go for social way of approach, because as Emma told how can a girl give birth if she got pregnant by raping? but if I go for spiritual opinion I have to say it is like a murder. So both the cases are there. It is up to you which way you think about. If you think for your personal spiritualism you will conclude it is sin, if you go for solutions of social level problems then you will conclude it is not sin. Those who says abortion is sin, just think if you younger sister got pregnant by raping. what will you suggest? Just think with you whole conscience. Those who say aborting is not wrong, please just think what if your mother aborted you. Oh my god...It is up to our general conscience. Nothing fixed rules can be constructed. I hope you can get my point. ^_^God bless.

[wild20 0]

Still Emma, the one needed to start a change. That is whats its all about. The one person, the only one that could have an effect. If you don't believe abortion is a mistake, why don't you read these opinions from a site I was researching at?

I was an emotional wreck. The following day I was empty, sad, numb. I knew that day I had made a huge mistake. I wish with all my heart I would have done things differently. CARRIE CAMILLERI
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA

I was told that I would be out for eight minutes and I would feel only a little discomfort afterwards. They lied,it ruined 10 years of my life.
MAE ABBOTT
LONG BEACH, CALIFORNIA

Sonya had an abortion and advises other women, Dont do it. Regret of a permanent decision is like watching a sad movie over and over again and hoping the ending will change but it never will. As Whitney Houston sang in a song, Dont Throw Away Your Miracle!
SONYA KAYE
LAKE STEVENS, WASHINGTON

Having an abortion was the biggest, most tragic mistake of my life. If there is anything I can ever say or do that would change a womans or mans abortion-bound course, I will do it. 
CARNA SPINELLA
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON

If you abort your child, this child will haunt you the rest of your life because no other child can replace him. Your  problems will multiply, not disappear. Talk to others who have had abortions, who have chosen not to abort, who have
found other ways to give life instead of death to their children. Abortion is wrong. Even if you dont believe that for sure, wouldnt it be smarter to err on the side of life? Abortion is irreversible once its done, you have no more options.
MARGARET CARSON
MEDFORD, OREGON

Please understand that by aborting your unborn child, that does not make the baby go away. Your baby will be in your heart until you die. After abortion the guilt, shame and loneliness is horrible. Once you abort, you cannot go back and change it.
LISA BURROUGHS
BUENA PARK, CALIFORNIA

Here is some of the women that have chosen abortion. Many of the stories show how it practically ruined their lives. Notice that last one. Abortion doesn't solve you're problems, it multiplies them. One person here mentioned that it wil help end the guilt by having an abortion. How I can reason with that is beyond me. There are also some "horror" stories about some complications of the abortion procedure. Now you see through the eyes of a woman that HAS had an abortion and DOES know what its like. The past is aways there, no matter what you do to erase it. Only God can do that.

[emma 0]

Once again with the reasearch! Stop reasearching and ask real people. My aunt, didn't have an abortion and killed herself. My friend had an abortion and is now top in our school and loving her life. She knows that she shouldn't have had sex, but, it's all over now. Ooooh wow, a horror story! There are SEVERAL operations that go wronge. ANything, can go wronge! A Toe surgery can go wronge? SHould we say docters shouldn't exost anymore!? NO! We deal with what can go wronge and do our best to fix it.

Besides, let's fight fire, with fire!

1)  the first argument is that abortions will happen anyways and that if we make them illegal then women

will get unsafe illegal abortions.  well first of all, you are creating a false dilema and judging by the tone


of your forward, you know what that is.. and if you dont, then too bad, you're a moron.  but, we're not gonna


get  into the False Dilema issue because it's not the most important.  take into consideration Kant's


Categorical Imperative.. what if we made everything that is going to happen anyways legal?  well, people


are going to continue to rape and murder other people.  should we make them legal?  of course not you


may say rape and murder are very different from abortion but essentially they are not.  abortion encroaches


on the most universal. inalienable right of every human being.. the right to life.  murder and rape also


encroach on the right to life and also the right to safety.  -just think about it-






2)  the second argument was that abortion is good for women's health.  the most obvious problem here is


that abortion is acually very detrimental to women's health, both physical and mental.  many women have


either gotten horribly ill or died from complications due to abortion.  and i believe i am safe in saying that


almost ALL women who have had an abortion have had horrible mental side-effects to it. -think about that


one too-




3)  the third argument was that making abortions illegal diminishes women and that women are more


of a "person" than babies.  but i ask you, what is your definition of a person?  strictly philosophically, a person


is something with rational capabilities and a self conciousness.  babies have both of these.. babies have


the capacity to be rational, they just don't know how to use it at first and is has been proven that fetuses


have a self conciousness by how they spend much time looking at their hands and other appendages.  what


makes women more of a "person" than babies?  because they are more developed?? well, then i guess a


30 year old deserves more rights than a 12 year old??.. doubt it -more food for thought-




4)  the fourth argument was that abortion is an option and that women can do with their bodies what they


want.  well, what about the babies option to live?  have you taken that into consideration?? i guess not.


arent you glad your mother gave you the option to live?




5)  the 5th, and probably most ludacris, argument was that anti-abortion laws are discriminatory to low-


income women. what the hell?  if laws against women were to be made, NO women.. not even the rich


ones.. could have abortions.  and if these low-income women do not want to get prognant, either get


protection, or if you cannot do that, don't have sex.  i mean stop running away from responsibility here,


people.  if every mistake we made in life were as easy to get rid of as babies, imagine where our


society would be.  people need to step up and either practice some self controll, or reap what they sow.


and if these women are so terribly low-income that they cannot afford protection, chances are they cannot


really afford a high-quality, safe abortion.. seeing as insurance doesn't cover abortions--much like it does


not cover other negligent acts.  -and yet something else to ponder over-




6)  the sixth argument that i would like to counter is that anti-abortion laws are not akin to a free society.


well, i have pretty much answered this statement in my responses to 1 and 4.  but, i will recap.  there


are many laws today that put restrictions on human actions.. such as laws against rape and murder.  now,


if you think about it, those laws deny humans complete freedom to do as they choose, much like you


say that abortion laws do. does that mean that anti-homicide and anti-rape laws are not akin to a free


society?  of course not.  "freedom" does not only mean "freedom to..." but it also encompasses


"freedom from..."  anti-homicide and rape laws give everyone the FREEdom from rape and murder.


much like anti-abortion laws give babies the FREEdom from being murdered and the FREEdom to life.


((notice the horribly obvious parallelism here))




7)  the seventh argument is that if we abolish abortions then more children will bear children.  well, before


we even start on my counter-argument to that, we will address your blatent contradiction.  in your first


argument you said that if someone wants an abortion, they will get one whether its legal or its not.  so, if


we had anti-abortion laws, then these children who would have gotten a legal abortion will get one ilegally.


so, with or without the laws, these pregnant kids aren't having other kids... see the contradiction now??


  on to my argument.. more and more teenagers are beginning to have sex outside of marriage whether


they think it is wrong or not.  abortion laws make it very easy for these teenagers to escape responsibility


for what they have done, instead of stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility.  what kind of values


are we teaching our teenagers here?.. that every time they screw up they can wipe it away and rid


themselves of their mistake with no consequences?? that is not how real life is.. in the real world, when you


make a mistake, you have to deal with the responsibilities.  people who are pampered and are allowed to


rid themselves of responsibility will not know how to handle their other mistakes in life.  ---hhhmmm...---




8)  the eighth argument in the forward was that abortion rids us of unwanted kids.  oooooh, wow.  well,


first of all, over 20,000 requests for the adoption of a baby in the U.S. go unanswered every year because


there are not enough babies to go around.  yet, hundreds of thousands of people get abortions in the


U.S. every year.  some may say that they could never give their baby up for adoption, so they have to get


and abortion.  so lets clear this up one cannot give their baby, whom they do not want in the first place, to


a loving home which will supply them with love and everything else they need but one can sit with her legs


spread in a doctor's chair and have their baby's brain sucked out or have their baby painfully dismembered..


talk about a contradiction.. HHMM?  others may say that "group homes" for children are overflowing with


unwanted kids.. yes they are.  key word here: "KIDS."  these homes are not filled with unwanted babies,


because all babies put up for adoption are adopted.  the kids here are runaways one orphans.  still others


would say that they would put the kid up for adoption but it will have a deformity and no one would want it.


au contrare, mon ami.. over 1/3 of the requests for adoptions each year are for babies with abnormalities


and terminal illnesses.. wow never knew that did you?..  --now you're thinkin, right?--




9)  the ninth, and final, argument on the forward was that everyone deserves a choice.  BRAVO everyone


does deserve a choice.... the most important choice a person has is the choice to live or die.. now are we


giving that baby a choice to life?? nope nope.. just giving that to an irresponsible mother who doesn't want


to deal with her mistakes.. gosh.  ((refer to 1 and 4 for further reading on this topic))

and

There are approximately 46 million abortions conducted eacy year, 20 million of them obtained illegally.

Personhood at conception is a religious belief, not a provable biological fact. Mormon and some Fundamentalist churches believe in personhood at conception; Judaism holds that it begins at birth and abortion is not murder; ensoulment theories vary widely within Protestantism. The religious community will never reach consensus on the definition of a "person" or when abortion is morally justified.
We are pro-choice. "Pro-abortion" is inaccurate, as it implies favoring abortion over childbirth. We support reproductive freedom, which means that an individual woman should be able to make her own choice.

The "pro-life" concerns of abortion foes are only for fetal lives, not the lives of women or unwanted babies. "Pro-life" is a term used to make anti-abortion and anti-choice seem positive and good.

Laws have never stopped abortion, but only relegated it to back-alley butchers. The hypocrisy is clear: when illegal abortion was the leading killer of pregnant women in the U.S., there was no Right to Life (RTL) organization.

Most Americans reject the absolutist position that it is always wrong to terminate a pregnancy and believe that abortion may be the morally right choice under certain circumstances.

The same people who oppose legal abortion are attempting to cripple federal and state family planning programs both by defunding and by administrative regulations. The "human life amendment" would outlaw birth control methods, such as the IUD and mini-pills, which act after fertilization. The charter of Birthright, the anti-abortion "problem pregnancy" counseling organization, prohibits referral for contraception.

[wild20 0]

Emma, of course there are people that are having an abortion against the law, but almost all are first timers in other countries who don't know what is really the awful story behind the technique of abortion and also most likely will never do it again. The examples I gave were actually people who had abortions, not staitics. The fact is, most women regret they ever had an abortion, and willnever have it again. Besides, from the stories of these women, more people's lives aretorn apart from having an abortion, then giving the baby up for ADOPTION! Instead of a few months of reminders, these women have the rest of their days to ponder and wonder what that child could be and how he may have been a great person. With abortion, rarely does everyone win.Like I said before, your Aunt could have changed her position. There is free counseling, support groups, and there are always ways to get your self out of the situation and try to improve. There are hundreds os families wanting to adopt, I know, because I know someone who adopted and couldn't find a baby. They searched and searched. People can't have babies easily these days, and adoption is the best answer.

[Galahad 0]

Hi all,I don't know why religion ALWAYS has to be pulled in every discussion. Remember the Inquisition? The Crusades? All done by biggest Christians and religious people. Not something that follows the "do not kill" clause in the bible.I am a man, and I agree, I can never know the feeling after rape, but I can try to understand. If we were to follow do not kill rule, we would die. Why? Plants are a life too. Why do vegetarians think they are better than people who eat meat? Life is life, wether it is sentient or not. Let's not ever kill anything again. Let's see how far would we go.Say for example, a woman decides to keep the rape-baby, and gives birth. Then gives it up for adoption. And that child ends up at some psycho family. Then that child decides to become mass murder. That doens't sound very good thing.The fact remains, that people must have a choice, otherwise, we might just all label our selves with numbers, and call ourselves robots.There is a saying "exception doesn't make a rule". One child that became good, doesn't mean all will be that way. What if mother, after birth, just goes crazy, and become also some crazed mass murder. You heard what happened to Emma's aunt. I'm sorry for you loss, it must have been hard. I now understand why you feel so strongly about this debate.wild20, not all psychological problems can be solved, remember that. Just imagine yourself being raped by some guy.You can't become pregnant, but just imagine being raped. Then add pregnancy. What if mother doesn't give child up for abortion, but decides to punish the rapist trough her child. What then? Is that childs life going to be good? I think not.The nature of humans is like that, that we don't get along on some things, and there are always a minimum of two sides to every discussion. Women should be given choice to abort babies, no matter how horrible that looks to people. It is her choice.Baby is alive even when it is not sentient, and aware of the world. Ok, take cancer for example. It grows by splitting cells, it's in the same state as a fetus. But we do get rid of those cells. It may be a rough parallel, but it does make you think. People are always selective in their view of things.If god is so good, and has a plan for everyone... Nah, I'm not getting into that discussion.I don't think church or other people have anything to do with abortion. It is between a mother, that child, and possibly god, if he exists. We are not to get involved. We just need to give moral support to those women who decide to abort. Maybe they will feel bad after that. But maybe they would feel worse if they had the baby. You can't tell, and neither can say those who had abprtion.I agree, abortion is very bad, but it is sometimes the only way out.Cheers