Life After Death? Is there?

[biscuitrat 0]

Oh, and there's that whole thing about fantasy games being "tools of the devil" because they have resurrection, death, and magic. I don't get any of that.But seriously, isn't it better to take hell out of the picture and just say you go to that "better place"? Hell is too harsh - even sinners have reasons for their sins. We're human, after all. We can't control our urges and whims as easily a deity might (OK, not all deities - I'm looking at you, Zeus @_@) but how's it fair to condemn us to hell for 1) not being Christian, 2) for not being faithful to said God, and 3) for loving those of our own gender?At least, it doesn't sound fair to me.

[Joshua 0]

Oh, and there's that whole thing about fantasy games being "tools of the devil" because they have resurrection, death, and magic. I don't get any of that.

 

But seriously, isn't it better to take hell out of the picture and just say you go to that "better place"? Hell is too harsh - even sinners have reasons for their sins. We're human, after all. We can't control our urges and whims as easily a deity might (OK, not all deities - I'm looking at you, Zeus @_@) but how's it fair to condemn us to hell for 1) not being Christian, 2) for not being faithful to said God, and 3) for loving those of our own gender?

 

At least, it doesn't sound fair to me.

173381[/snapback]

While I don't speak out against fantasy games, if I were to take a guess I'd assume it's because you're trying to accord men power (raising the dead) which belongs solely to God?

 

The problem with taking Hell out of the picture is then you're simply catering to what people want to hear rather then what they need to hear. I took my brother to a "church" a few days ago called "Church of Life" and was shocked to see it was nothing more then one giant party zone. They had an equivalent of a rock concert area and even had video game consoles near the area for the Sunday service. I say this to illustrate that what is popular isn't always right and what's right is very rarely popular. In fact, we're told whoever will live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution (2 Timothy 3:12) and that if the world hated Christ even so it will hate us (John 15:19-20), a servant is not greater then his Master. If things are going well for you, that's the time to question whether you really stand for anything worth anything:

 

Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

 

You raise some good questions and points, Hell is most definitely harsh. God is a perfect, just, and righteous God and we don't realize just how great our rebellion is when we so much as tell a lie. Everything adds up and God will judge every disobedient act we've committed against His righteous Law in the final day. If we're not convicted of how evil we are, we will be then.

 

Sinners may have reasons for their sins, but there is never a good reason for sin. All sin is disobedience towards God and inexcusable. As far as homosexuality goes, it is wrong simply because it is going against the basic premise God set forth in the beginning, and dares to rebel against God's rules even as Satan did. All sin is rebellion and as the sin of witchcraft (1 Samuel 15:23) and thus serves idols instead of the one true God.

 

Matthew 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

 

You're right, we can't control our urges and whims, we are under bondage to them as I mentioned before. That's why God made a way out. His righteous nature necessitates that there be a punishment for the sin, and He is the only righteous Judge that Creation has. He came as one of us to pay the penalty for all those of us who will accept that sacrifice. The question isn't why we need to accept that sacrifice (He HAS given us free will, even to refuse Him) but why we would refuse it when He's been telling the world of this wonderful gift to come for thousands of years now. He's told us it's our only way out and that if we refuse it there is no escape to be found from the consequences of our sins.

 

Someone has to pay the penalty, and God gave us a chance to have Him pay it. If we've refused that chance then there is no other. We have shown ourselves utterly hopeless and worthless by not only disobeying God but by refusing even the wondrous act of selflessness He committed in trying to save us.

 

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

Hope that helps,

 

jz

[B-T 0]

YES, I BELIEVE THERE IS.

[wild20 0]

I see, but this is a debate and you should have evidence to support that claim shouldn't you?

[Galahad 0]

Yes... The original sin... What's up with that? Why do I, why do we all, and why will everyone that comes after us (according to the Bible, that is), have to pay the price for Adam & Eve's mistakes?If God indeed created us, he knew what we are like, and what would we do, and not do. So, he knew, that apple would be picked, and eaten... Which makes me think that God did a pretty low thing, planting that apple, saying "Don't eat it", knowing that saying no will increase desire to eat it, and then, when it did happen, banning Adam & Eve from Heaven... And further more, God then created the institution of the original sin, or, everybody pays for your great great great great... great grand mother and father... Doesn't sound like a good, loving God to me... What influence did I have on those events? And why is it I have to be a sinner, as soon as I am born, even though I never did anything wrong?I understand I am a sinner now that I am 24, but then, when I was few minutes old, what could possibly I do wrong?The fact is, the Bible was written by people, and eve though it has some very good messages, most of it is just work of a control freak.And since people needed explanations for something, they invented God... Who is a spitting image of ourselves, and is soo nice, loving and caring to us. And by condemnig us to burning fires of hell... But it's for our own good, isn't it? God sounds like a narcisoid person to me... If you don't believe in me, and you don't love me, and don't follow what I say, you go to hell... And hell is not a very nice place?Imagine this situation... You are on a deserted island. You have your children with you. You've been stuck there for, say, 20 years. They are both full grown now, and by their standards, you can do no wrong, you are a sort of God to them. They listen and follow your every word. But one day, they didn't do as you said, and they ate, a tomato you planted... And you ban them from your settlement. But, since you are all alone on that island, they still depend on you. So, a loving father figure you are, you help them... But, they can never return to live with you, and they must follow what you say, and when they die, you will let them come back...Now, the time has come for them to have their own children, and they do... And you are a proud grandfather... And you say to your grandchild, you are a sinner, and you will not live in my settlement, and you will follow every word I say, and if you do not, you will suffer for all eternety...Not very nice, isn't it? That is how I see the actions of God, if indeed he exists...

[wild20 0]

But you don't understand. God planted the tree to give stan a chance to prove he was right. If you read the Bible, the was a war in heaven. Stan, who started it, was kicked out because iniquity was found in his heart. He said that God was unfair. So pretty much, God said, "Okay lucifer, I will give you a chance, it will be your only chance. Here is how it works. There is this people I want to create, they will be perfect. Why do I want to create them. Because they will be like me. In the image of their God. You are not to touch the rest of the universe. Only this people. But remember, in the end, I will judge according to what you have done, and who followed you." So, satan got his chance to prove that God was unfair, and maybe even take God's place. So God planted a tree. The people had their choice, they could follow a loving God, or follow a vain satan. Now here is why God planted the tree, why it seems so unfair to people, and why we pay the price and can't live with God. In order to let satan have his way and prove that he was fair, he needed a tool. That was the tree. Now people think it is unfair that God did this because now we payed the price. But listen. When you sin, did the devil make you do it? No. What about God? No. God had to prove He was fair and He is doing so. Instead of letting us walk around like mindless robots, He gave us the power of choice. Adam and Eve chose to eat the fruit. The reason we can't be free of the punishment is simple. God is perfect. When lucifer was thrown out of heaven, it was because he had sin in his heart. When a baby is born, it has the dna similar to that of it's mother and father. So do we. Adam and Eve. That means, that in heaven, we would actually bring sin there. Another thing, it seems unfair that God made us that way, but He gave a us a choice. He could not intervene. He did try to turn Israel back to Him multiple times, but in the end, He just let them go. Same for us. The balance of eternal life hangs on the scale. Satan says follow him, God satnds and bids people to come to Him. In the end, God will when. There is no way, God can be proven unjust. Satan and his followers will get there reward, and the elect and fathful followers will get theirs. Never again after that, will there be any sin.

[flamette 0]

I'd have to agree with you. I'm not saying life after death is impossible, I just see no evidence of it and there for cannot prove nor disprove its existance. Same goes for god.

[wild20 0]

Thanks for agreeing. But if it is possible, can you find evidence or scripture to support it? The main reason for this debate is because I find many people these days saying that their loved ones are in heaven watching over them. The plain fact is, that there is no life after death. So, I am voicing my concern.

[biscuitrat 0]

There's more than enough scripture up there to back up whatever has been said. It's just going back and forth. The origin of humans is very vague, but so much evidence connects them to primates that it has been accepted as fact, and a fact I readily believe. The thought of having another being out there controlling your life, and telling you how to live it through a religion is bogus to me. I'm not an all out believer of Hinduism, but I do respect its boundaries and attend services, and whatever I need to to feel I'm contributing to my religion. What I do not respect is that mankind has always had boundaries set by other men or people not even of this earth, in the Christian scenario. When has a god ever given you a raise, or made your lunch? When has a god ever paid your bills or informed you personally that you are, in fact, his or her child? And how can those be accounted for?If we're talking about life after death, we have to believe in the paranormal, and the existence of something truly ethereal within ourselves. There have been sightings and stories of ghosts and there have been instances where it could be no other form of creature. Ghosts are essentially left behind spirits, stuck in limbo until they can finish a deed, which is roughly like a pseudo-reincarnation, except part of you doesn't go anywhere. If your business is done, you go on to wherever you go to. It doesn't matter if you've sinned or not - it could have been a mistake, a problem in your childhood, something you could not prevent that could be called "a sin" (and I think the Christian religion is a bit too strict on what are sins and what aren't sins). If because of these "sins", you're damned to hell, regardless of your faith, what's the point? Believers in Christianity and deviations often say that the only way to go to heaven and be saved when the world ends is to believe in Christ. What if I were to say that the only way to be saved was to believe in yourself? What would I be labelled as? Centuries ago, I would have been persecuted and burned at the stake for my practices and my beliefs. How is that any different from the "merciful" future that Christianity has lain out for "non-believers"? I get hell no matter what. You have to remember that there are other religions than Christianity and regardless of how much you respect your religion, please respect ours. Our views conflict with yours and the more you say things like "Jesus is the only way out", the more I tend to get upset about where this thread are going. You guys aren't evangels for Christ - you're just debating a simple scenario of life after death.

[wild20 0]

I respect all religions. But what I want to know is, do you have evidence to back a claim with your religion, that Ghosts are or are not real. I don't shove my religion down anyone. But I do expect people, if they are going to debate, to explain why there religion does or does not believe in something and give evidence to back it. Here, in a debating world, religious beliefs are obsolete except for the fact they provide some of your evidence. But what you should have, is evidence either from your religion, or from somewhere else. I really can't stand arguing. All you are talking about is beliefs. I believe you should be providing more evidence. I have backed myself with more than enough evidence, half of which you haven't even attempted to tear down or give proof against. Maybe you should go back to the 20 some posts I have done on this subject and look over my evidence more carefully. But please either give more of your own. It becomes mighty tedious for me if I am doing all the explaning.

[Joshua 0]

Yes... The original sin... What's up with that? Why do I, why do we all, and why will everyone that comes after us (according to the Bible, that is), have to pay the price for Adam & Eve's mistakes?

 

If God indeed created us, he knew what we are like, and what would we do, and not do. So, he knew, that apple would be picked, and eaten... Which makes me think that God did a pretty low thing, planting that apple, saying "Don't eat it", knowing that saying no will increase desire to eat it, and then, when it did happen, banning Adam & Eve from Heaven... And further more, God then created the institution of the original sin, or, everybody pays for your great great great great... great grand mother and father... Doesn't sound like a good, loving God to me... What influence did I have on those events? And why is it I have to be a sinner, as soon as I am born, even though I never did anything wrong?

 

I understand I am a sinner now that I am 24, but then, when I was few minutes old, what could possibly I do wrong?

 

The fact is, the Bible was written by people, and eve though it has some very good messages, most of it is just work of a control freak.

 

And since people needed explanations for something, they invented God... Who is a spitting image of ourselves, and is soo nice, loving and caring to us. And by condemnig us to burning fires of hell... But it's for our own good, isn't it? God sounds like a narcisoid person to me... If you don't believe in me, and you don't love me, and don't follow what I say, you go to hell... And hell is not a very nice place?

 

Imagine this situation... You are on a deserted island. You have your children with you. You've been stuck there for, say, 20 years. They are both full grown now, and by their standards, you can do no wrong, you are a sort of God to them. They listen and follow your every word. But one day, they didn't do as you said, and they ate, a tomato you planted... And you ban them from your settlement. But, since you are all alone on that island, they still depend on you. So, a loving father figure you are, you help them... But, they can never return to live with you, and they must follow what you say, and when they die, you will let them come back...

Now, the time has come for them to have their own children, and they do... And you are a proud grandfather... And you say to your grandchild, you are a sinner, and you will not live in my settlement, and you will follow every word I say, and if you do not, you will suffer for all eternety...

 

Not very nice, isn't it? That is how I see the actions of God, if indeed he exists...

176210[/snapback]

It's been said that they sinned and brought sin into the world but as soon as we're old enough we jump off the ship too, and that while it's possible to live without sin none of us will ever do it.

 

God can't make a people capable of love without allowing something to test their love as well, bringing up the question if any different way of creating man would have succeeded without rebellion. If God hadn't said not to eat it then eating it would not have been wrong, you can't have something be wrong and not have a law stating that it's wrong. Because there wasn't sin yet they had the ability not to take of the tree and they willingly rebelled against God.

 

It is often spoken of of how there's an age of accountability where we realize what we're doing. The Bible would suggest that children who die do go to Heaven since in 2 Samuel 12:23 David says he will go to his unborn son when he dies but that the son will not return to him.

 

God judges us for our sins, our mistakes, in the final judgement, as I understand it. All sin is worthy of death, when we lie once, steal once, hate someone else once, covet once, etc... we have committed a sin worthy of eternal death in the Lake of Fire for we have rebelled against God. This is the curse that the Law brought upon it, for a righteous God cannot allow evil to go unpunished and to abide with Him. God came to earth as Jesus Christ to pay the price so that the punishment might come on His head.

 

The Bible was physically written by people who God inspired, but it is His Words and He is the Author of them.

 

We go to Hell for rebellion against the Almighty, insurgents are not tolerated. Pick an empire you think is the most just and then look at how they deal with terrorists and rebellions.

 

That's your parable, now for the one Christ tells in Luke chapter 20:

 

===============

A man planted a vineyard and let some people take care of it. He then took a long trip to a distant country. When a certain season came, He sent one of His servants to give him some of the vineyard's fruit, which belonged to him anyway. But those he'd loaned the vineyard to beat His servant and cast him out. They did the same to a second servant, and when He sent a third they wounded him as well and cast him out.

 

So the lord of the vineyard said, "What will I do? I'll send my beloved son, perhaps they will honor him when they see him."

 

But when the caretakers saw the son they considered and said among themselves, "This is the heir, let's kill him so we can have his inheritance."

 

So they cast the son out of the vineyard and killed him. Now what then do you think the lord of the vineyard will do to them?

===============

 

You see, God has had mankind continually rebel against Him. He sent His servants the prophets and mankind has attacked and killed them. Then when He finally sent them His Son they killed Him. As Christ said, whoever isn't with Him is against Him, and thus associated with His murderers (Matthew 12:30). You see, we are either God's children or Satan's, there is no middle ground. Christ came that we could be a part of God's family instead of Satan's, by refusing Him we stand all the more solidly beside Satan and the murderers of God's beloved Son. (John 8:44)

 

Here is more:

 

Mankind rebelled against God, and choosing to defy His commandments, and this now evil race continued to reject His pleas to repent. He picked out a nation that the world might come to to worship Him, but even this nation rebelled against Him. Other nations continued in their abominable ways, choosing to worship idols and things made of rock and stone rather then the one true Creator. They even burned their children alive, committed sexual abominations, and killed and used violence on all they could. The injustice became so great that He nearly wiped out the human population, wishing He hadn't made them. The only reason He chose not to was because one man lived righteously and followed after Him (and our evil nature leads us to commit evil, only by following after God can we learn of righteousness).

 

All through the ages God has tried to draw mankind back from their backsliding ways as they continue to refuse Him. The few men who've obeyed Him, the prophets, He has sent to try and turn mankind back to Him, and they've been stoned, sawn in half, and slain with the sword by a rebellion race that refuses to return to the Creator who loves them. Finally God sent them His Son and they even killed Him. The final nail in the coffin besides the fact that we sin and live in rebellion against Him, is that we refuse Him who died for us, making it evident that had He lived in our time, we too would have killed Him as well.

 

There will come a day when God will do as He did in the days of Noah, He will destroy the wicked race of mankind, leaving only those who are doers of good. We cannot enter paradise while we are still associated with the evils of this race but as there are levels to Heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2) and there are levels to Hell (Psalms 86:13), as there are differences in rewards, so it would be safe to assume there will be differences in punishments. God is just and I believe that those who are less guilty will suffer less in the Lake of Fire.

 

However, the day is coming when that purging of the human race and God will do what He could have done years ago, He will annihilate the wicked race that has utterly forsaken Him. Only those, who like Noah, have turned again to Him, will be saved. Maybe you don't want to hear that, say it's too harsh, but I say that when that day comes we will all have a lesser idea of how evil we are then what we really are.

 

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I don't know that I agree with all of Wild's post but I think he was right on about how God can't allow those rebelling against Him into Heaven for they would only pollute yet another of His creations. You see, God made this one perfect, but through the evils of mankind the whole creation is being destroyed. Indeed, all creation cries out for its Creator to do something about this:

 

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

God will not let His new creation be messed up like the last one was.

 

 

 

The origin of humans is very vague, but so much evidence connects them to primates that it has been accepted as fact, and a fact I readily believe. The thought of having another being out there controlling your life, and telling you how to live it through a religion is bogus to me. I'm not an all out believer of Hinduism, but I do respect its boundaries and attend services, and whatever I need to to feel I'm contributing to my religion. What I do not respect is that mankind has always had boundaries set by other men or people not even of this earth, in the Christian scenario. When has a god ever given you a raise, or made your lunch? When has a god ever paid your bills or informed you personally that you are, in fact, his or her child? And how can those be accounted for?

You bring up some good points about why you believe what you believe and I respect your honesty and candor. God did take judgement of His nation into His own hands, the fact that Israel has gone through so many trials and captivities and genocidal attacks through history is proof that God has done as He said in mightily judging them for rejecting His promises. That Israel still stands despite all it's been through is proof that God is true to His promise in preserving them.

 

Before Christ came, God did interact with people via angels, but to tell the nation of Israel of Christ who would come. Christ did come and worked miracles even a whole nation set on disbelieving Him could not deny. Many people don't think about how the whole nation of Israel which Christianity started in was dead set against believing Him to be God, and their laws stated that false miracles and false prophecies were to be accompanied with stoning. Yet even His greatest enemies couldn't deny the miracles or the teachings, indeed, His disciples deliberately pointed to them afterwards as evidence of who He was. One of the great reasons Christianity succeeded was because the miracles and the great works could not be denied.

 

I figure that now that Christ has come and God has evidenced and backed Him up like noone or nothing in history has ever been backed up, that He figures He doesn't need to provide further signs. His Son has come, the promise has come, now it's just a waiting period to see who will show themselves righteous by trusting in Him, and who will show themselves unredeemably wicked by refusing Him.

 

However, I think you'll find if you deliberately challenge God to prove Himself to you, if you ask Him to show that He exists, and are really willing to see His hand at work, that He'll give you what you need to believe God does work in people's lives if they are really seeking Him, to draw them to Him, but He does just enough for it to be enough. And God will not view Himself as an entertainer, He's not going to show someone miracles who's set on not believing in Him and just wants to see what He can do for their private amusement. If someone really wants to see if He exists, He will draw them to Him. It may not be like they'd expect, in fact I'd venture to guarantee will not be I'm certain God has a sense of humor when it comes to that But He may show you truths, reveal things to you, work in your life until you either must believe it's not coincidence or ultimately refuse to let anything be enough to persuade you. He might bring people into your life to tell you what you need to know, to tell you the facts you need to hear, but He will not force you.

 

If we're talking about life after death, we have to believe in the paranormal, and the existence of something truly ethereal within ourselves. There have been sightings and stories of ghosts and there have been instances where it could be no other form of creature. Ghosts are essentially left behind spirits, stuck in limbo until they can finish a deed, which is roughly like a pseudo-reincarnation, except part of you doesn't go anywhere. If your business is done, you go on to wherever you go to. It doesn't matter if you've sinned or not - it could have been a mistake, a problem in your childhood, something you could not prevent that could be called "a sin" (and I think the Christian religion is a bit too strict on what are sins and what aren't sins). If because of these "sins", you're damned to hell, regardless of your faith, what's the point?

The point is that our sins bring us a guilty conscience and a heavy heart, and it's the weight of all that guilt leaving which many (perhaps not all) people who are born again first notice. It's like the biggest weight in the world falling off you, your guilt is utterly washed away. The point is that there's life out there, there's hope, there's a chance to change, to find eternal life! This isn't a matter of needing to do good enough deeds to get in or so you don't have to face much of Purgatory (which isn't Biblical), the Bible says you are saved once and for all. It means complete assurance that you've found eternal life and all the promises of God, and that all the searching is over. That all the payment is done with, and not done by us, but by Christ on the cross. That we can finally be free, not just from sin and from death and from hate, but from worry and anxiety altogether! It means knowing our souls are safe with the One who bought them, as the hymn says "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded; that He is able, to keep that which I've committed, unto Him, against that day!" It means simply resting and trusting in God and realizing more and more that whatever the world might throw at us we are ultimately safe in Him and that all the searching, all the striving, all the fear is dead and gone. It means death for us is dead, that everything is finished, there are no punishments for us, only rewards, and life no longer has fear remaining in it for us, for there's nothing we need to be afraid of, for we're eternally safe. All that remains is to obey God, not because we have to, or because we don't have a choice, but rather out of love and gratitude towards Him for what He has done for us. This is the point.

 

Concerning ghosts, the Bible does speak of them but not in that way Ghost is just another word for spirit, which is why "Holy Spirit" and "Holy Ghost" are interchangeable. There is the rare case of Samuel as a ghost coming to visit Saul in 1 Samuel 28:12. However, this was apparently a special circumstance God allowed, since the witch was shocked as well to see it happen

 

Demons are simply fallen angels, like Satan. And it says angels are ministering spirits who care for the "heirs of salvation" in Hebrews 1:14. Demons of course can cause physical problems and Christ cast them out of people before. How much they can do I'm not sure, but they are subject utterly to Christ, and thus to the saint (i.e. born again Christian).

 

Both demons and angels are active in this world, and angels at least have come in bodily form before. It seems plain to me that from them originate the popular conception of "ghosts."

 

Believers in Christianity and deviations often say that the only way to go to heaven and be saved when the world ends is to believe in Christ. What if I were to say that the only way to be saved was to believe in yourself? What would I be labelled as? Centuries ago, I would have been persecuted and burned at the stake for my practices and my beliefs. How is that any different from the "merciful" future that Christianity has lain out for "non-believers"? I get hell no matter what.

Christians were also burned at the stake. Those who burned people at the stake got their religion from the same Rome that burned Christians at the stake, and burned their Bibles as well. God permits us to disagree with Him for now, that we might have a chance to find mercy. I believe that it isn't ignorant disbelief we are punished for (Paul was forgiven for His actions done in ignorance-1 Timothy 1:13) but rather all the evils we commit. When we hate someone we do evil. When we want something that's someone else's we do evil. When we lust after someone we're not married to we do evil. Add up all those evils and you'll see why we must be punished. That's the direct cause for why we go to the Lake of Fire. The indirect is because we didn't find the way of mercy that can pay for those evils so they come upon Christ instead of upon us.

 

You have to remember that there are other religions than Christianity and regardless of how much you respect your religion, please respect ours. Our views conflict with yours and the more you say things like "Jesus is the only way out", the more I tend to get upset about where this thread are going. You guys aren't evangels for Christ - you're just debating a simple scenario of life after death.

My friend, I respect others, not their beliefs Because I respect them I do not provide unbacked accusations and I listen to what they have to say, respectfully. Let's face it, we both believe we're right We both believe our way is the right way Simply saying one way is right is not disrespecting the other person, disrespect is to either attempt to silence the other person's views/voice (which idea I abhor) or to simply put them down through charachter assassination or their views down by unreasonable attacks (your view is stupid, etc... esp. without reasoning). The topic's on life after death and I'm willing to discuss a lot of other topics with others as well. *shrugs*

[biscuitrat 0]

Perhaps this is because I don't have a copy of and Hindu scriptures to read. I have a wealth of folktales and religious books about certain topics but I can't translate the original sanskrit, tamil, or kannada into english for myself. Being a 1st generation American, I don't have the privilege of being able to write/read my mother tongue, even though I can speak it. If the events of the flood happened perhaps...4,000 years ago (clarify that date for me), why is there evidence of people before the flood and even after the flood? Why do none of the other religions mention a flood if it did happen in history, as you claim. Or at least, in religious history. Wouldn't any of this be noted among other religions as happening?The holy spirit/holy ghost are not technically "ghosts" because being part of the trinity, they are manifestations of a Christian god. True ghosts, as I believe they are, are detached spirits. The paranormal is perfectly possible if you look at photographic and audio-taped evidence. Some of it is bogus as people equate finding a "ghost sound" with the sounds of say, Bigfoot, or whatever. About your "once they're saved, they're saved for good" part: would that mean that all the reported ghost sightings are actually not Christians then? What if there is some form of distended reality where these spirits walk?About your so called sins - who hasn't coveted something? Who hasn't said "I wish I had [insert object here]!" at least once? A white lie is still a lie, even if it's the tiniest untruth. Would it really help us to be purged every now and then? Sometimes the people who commit sins are the ones that make our world interesting. I for one wouldn't want to be surrounded by ultra-religious people and small children for the rest of my life. There has to be something more, which is why I believe in second chances.Reincarnation would allow you to say...simulate life again. You get to be born a different way, live a different way, perhaps have reminescences of your past life. I wouldn't think of it as a punishment. A lot of people like living a normal life without fear of being punished, being told to believe something, or basing their lives on the laws of an ancient civilization. What it all comes down to is what you believe in. If you think you're going to be whisked away to another land or simply stay on this earth and live another life, it's all up to you. I personally wouldn't mind lasting those few billion years until the sun's energy burns out, just to see the changes that occur. My thoughts are that we'll regress to the way we were, as history shows we always do, but you never know. Also, wild, that was a crazily long post, excluding quotes.

[Joshua 0]

Perhaps this is because I don't have a copy of and Hindu scriptures to read. I have a wealth of folktales and religious books about certain topics but I can't translate the original sanskrit, tamil, or kannada into english for myself. Being a 1st generation American, I don't have the privilege of being able to write/read my mother tongue, even though I can speak it.

 

If the events of the flood happened perhaps...4,000 years ago (clarify that date for me), why is there evidence of people before the flood and even after the flood? Why do none of the other religions mention a flood if it did happen in history, as you claim. Or at least, in religious history. Wouldn't any of this be noted among other religions as happening?

Actually, one of the big supports for a Biblical history is the existence of flood legends on almost every continent in numerous ancient legends. This site is good for showing which cultures have flood legends:

 

http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

 

As you can see, they have them everywhere from Australia to Canada.

 

The holy spirit/holy ghost are not technically "ghosts" because being part of the trinity, they are manifestations of a Christian god. True ghosts, as I believe they are, are detached spirits. The paranormal is perfectly possible if you look at photographic and audio-taped evidence. Some of it is bogus as people equate finding a "ghost sound" with the sounds of say, Bigfoot, or whatever. About your "once they're saved, they're saved for good" part: would that mean that all the reported ghost sightings are actually not Christians then? What if there is some form of distended reality where these spirits walk?

Well, again, I figure ghost is just a synonym for spirit. Something I've found interesting, spirit or ghost comes from the word breath, or air, perhaps revealing something of the nature of ghosts or spirits. I don't doubt the paranormal, indeed the Bible teaches the spiritual realm to be the ultimate reality and the physical to be merely something vulnerable to change from the spirit realm.

 

 

Concerning the distended reality, I really can only guess. The Bible says the Holy Spirit can know our hearts and that that spiritual realm deals with faith and matters of the heart. Demons can control a person and inhabit them like a house. Because God is a Spirit it says that He dwells not in temples built with stone but people are His temples. Again, what kind of an alternate reality this would involve I can only guess, but I think thoughts and feelings compose the reality. You are consumed not by physical sight and senses but rather by the realm of the mind and the heart, and it is the realm which you give your attentions to. I would imagine those who dwell in it are more highly tuned to emotions and thoughts and that such compose their reality. What's interesting is we consider such the intangible though we know they exist, because we are physical we don't examine them as fully as we could, but doesn't the paranormal have largely to do with the mind or the heart? Not just thoughts but the will as well and variances in "faith" or being able to do that which you most firmly believe in. Just some thoughts brought up by your observation.

 

 

About your so called sins - who hasn't coveted something? Who hasn't said "I wish I had [insert object here]!" at least once? A white lie is still a lie, even if it's the tiniest untruth. Would it really help us to be purged every now and then? Sometimes the people who commit sins are the ones that make our world interesting. I for one wouldn't want to be surrounded by ultra-religious people and small children for the rest of my life. There has to be something more, which is why I believe in second chances.

That's exactly it, we've all done those things and it's why Christ came to save the whole world, not just one group of people! I for one know I'm certainly as guilty as anyone else, and if I knew I was still responsible for those mistakes I'd be miserable I'm certain those little white lies are just a sampling of what we've all been guilty of, and I know that's true for me. That's the thing with salvation, it's not a purging to be done every now and again, but Christ offered Himself once and for all. Once the sins are washed away, they're washed away for good. They are spoken of as covered, it's a done deal and not only your sins that you've done are forgiven but all you'll ever do. The Bible says that "as far as the east is from the west" is how far He removes our sins from us. (Psalms 103:12)

 

I wouldn't want to be surrounded by ultra-religious people either That's the thing, Christianity isn't about religion or working your way to God, it's about forgiveness and relationship with God through Jesus Christ's finished payment on the cross. Christ hung out with prostitutes and publicans (Jews who worked as tax collectors for the Romans and who their own people loathed and shunned) and they loved Him for it because He was compassionate to them and treated them with dignity, when noone else would. Yet the self-righteous Pharisees were the subject of Christ's unceasing denunciations.

 

That I believe is one of the secrets of Heaven It's not going to be filled with a bunch of stuck-up people who think they're perfect, in fact, you can't get saved thinking that. It will be filled with ex-prostitutes, ex-murderers, ex-thieves, etc... Christ reached out to those who were despised, He scorned and warned those who thought they were superior to others. Thieves like the thief on the cross who by simply accepting Jesus was told "this day will you be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43) Prostitutes like the woman in Samaria who Jesus reached out to so she could find eternal life. (John 4:17-18)

 

And murderers like Paul who was one of the Church's greatest enemies before He came face to face with the One He was persecuting, Jesus Christ. (1 Timothy 1:13) Becoming a greater apostle even then the original 12, he became a champion for Christianity whose zeal for the Lord amazed all who met this former Pharisee as He happily faced shipwreck, stonings, beatings, floggings, imprisonment, starvation, and was even left for dead. (Acts 14:19) He stood fearlessly before the rulers of the known world (Rome) declaring the wonder of his Master and when they finally executed him, his last words were "I have won!"

 

Reincarnation would allow you to say...simulate life again. You get to be born a different way, live a different way, perhaps have reminescences of your past life. I wouldn't think of it as a punishment. A lot of people like living a normal life without fear of being punished, being told to believe something, or basing their lives on the laws of an ancient civilization.

Of course, there's the depressing parts of reincarnation, like the fact that you don't regularly recall past lives. Nothing is ever resolved. And the whole point of it is to get good enough that you can finally just "get out of it." The whole gist of it all is to keep getting good enough that you can supposedly become one with the universe (or Brahmin?) and just lose your sense of being in itself, as I understand, you basically cease to exist.

 

Sorry about subjecting you to another quote, but it'll be a short one It's from page 14:

 

  Then a very significant event took place.  I was cycling past a cremation site and stopped to ask the Hindu priest where that person, whose body was nothing more than a pile of ashes was now.

  "Young man," he said, "that is a question you will be asking all your life, and you will never find a certain answer."

  If that is the best a priest can do, I thought, what hope is there for a novice like me?

As you can probably tell from this, Ravi Zecharias grew up in India. However, at the age of 20 his family moved to Canada. Eventually Ravi moved here to the US as well, and of course, as one of the most famous philosophical speakers in the world has traveled many other places as well. That is why he is able to detail personal meetings with high-ranking Russian generals, Olympic athletes, and prominent scientists and theologians of the day. I suspect it was his beginnings in Hinduism that sharpened his mind for philosophy and why he is so well versed in explaining the philosophical side of Christianity.

 

What it all comes down to is what you believe in. If you think you're going to be whisked away to another land or simply stay on this earth and live another life, it's all up to you. I personally wouldn't mind lasting those few billion years until the sun's energy burns out, just to see the changes that occur. My thoughts are that we'll regress to the way we were, as history shows we always do, but you never know.

 

Also, wild, that was a crazily long post, excluding quotes.

176400[/snapback]

Well, I believe this world and the universe as we know it will be utterly destroyed and that God will build a new creation devoid of the sin and evils brought in by Satan, which is why He can permit only those obedient to His will into it, else they would only mess up creation again. Regression, that's an interesting point the Bible makes. It says we're not evolving but devolving, that we were created to be able to live hundreds of years and were perhaps smarter then as well. Since we lived longer we had the benefit of learning the experience of our ancestors, and perhaps our minds matured more as well. It may be why so much of our brains are currently unused now. Just something to consider for the sake of further conversation I suppose.

[biscuitrat 0]

Well, I do know of one of our myths that dates back a while (before Christianity or Judaism, basically). Basically, the earth is just submerged in water, meaning it's bobbing around on water. Bhoomi Devi, who represents the earth is saved by Vishnu who turns into a boar form and fights a demon while trying to rescue her. Once she's safely afloat, she does something...I lost this particular comic. It's not really the same, but it does have a lot of water. The thing about the priest is interesting, but what mortal really knows? Near-death experiences are not conclusive pieces of evidence because they're usually extremely inaccurate. The whole migration/regression thing I've been thinking about reminds me a lot of things like Swiss Family Robinson and other spoofs, Lost in Space, mostly. That would be an interesting future and it's very likely we'll have to move to another planet sooner or later - probably for research purposes.

[Joshua 0]

Well, I do know of one of our myths that dates back a while (before Christianity or Judaism, basically). Basically, the earth is just submerged in water, meaning it's bobbing around on water. Bhoomi Devi, who represents the earth is saved by Vishnu who turns into a boar form and fights a demon while trying to rescue her. Once she's safely afloat, she does something...I lost this particular comic. It's not really the same, but it does have a lot of water.

 

The thing about the priest is interesting, but what mortal really knows? Near-death experiences are not conclusive pieces of evidence because they're usually extremely inaccurate.

 

The whole migration/regression thing I've been thinking about reminds me a lot of things like Swiss Family Robinson and other spoofs, Lost in Space, mostly. That would be an interesting future and it's very likely we'll have to move to another planet sooner or later - probably for research purposes.

176472[/snapback]

I found a really good site with brief descriptions of each belief:

 

http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/

 

I think this is the one you're thinking of:

 

Hindu:

Manu, the first human, found a small fish in his washwater. The fish begged protection from the larger fishes, in return for which it would save Manu. Manu kept the fish safe, transferring it to larger and larger reservoirs as it grew, eventually taking it to the ocean. The fish warned Manu of a coming deluge and told him to build a ship. When the flood rose, the fish came, and Manu tied the craft to its horn. The fish led him to a northern mountain and told Manu to tie the ship's rope to a tree to prevent it from drifting. Manu, alone of all creatures, survived. He made offerings of clarified butter, sour milk, whey, and curds. From these, a woman arose, calling herself Manu's daughter. Whatever blessings he invoked through her were granted him. Through her, he generated this race. [Gaster, pp. 94-95; Kelsen, p. 128; Brinton, pp. 227-228]

 

The great sage Manu, son of Vivasvat, practiced austere fervor. He stood on one leg with upraised arm, looking down unblinkingly, for 10,000 years. While so engaged on the banks of the Chirini, a fish came to him and asked to be saved from larger fish. Manu took the fish to a jar and, as the fish grew, from thence to a large pond, then to the river Ganga, then to the ocean. Though large, the fish was pleasant and easy to carry. Upon being released into the ocean, the fish told Manu that soon all terrestrial objects would be dissolved in the time of the purification. It told him to build a strong ship with a cable attached and to embark with the seven sages (rishis) and certain seeds, and to then watch for the fish, since the waters could not be crossed without it. Manu embarked as enjoined and thought on the fish. The fish, knowing his desire, came, and Manu fastened the ship's cable to its horn. The fish dragged the ship through roiling waters for many years, at last bringing it to the highest peak of Himavat, which is still known as Naubandhana ("the Binding of the Ship"). The fish then revealed itself as Parjapati Brahma and said Manu shall create all living things and all things moving and fixed. Manu performed a great act of austere fervor to clear his uncertainty and then began calling things into existence. [Frazer, pp. 185-187]

 

The heroic king Manu, son of the Sun, practiced austere fervor in Malaya and attained transcendent union with the Deity. After a million years, Brahma bestowed on Manu a boon and asked him to choose it. Manu asked for the power to preserve all existing things upon the dissolution of the universe. Later, while offering oblations in his hermitage, a carp fell in his hands, which Manu preserved. The fish grew and cried to Manu to preserve it, and Manu moved it to progressively larger vessels, eventually moving it to the river Ganga and then to the ocean. When it filled the ocean, Manu recognized it as the god Janardana, or Brahma. It told Manu that the end of the yuga was approaching, and soon all would be covered with water. He was to preserve all creatures and plants aboard a ship which had been prepared. It said that a hundred years of drought and famine would begin this day, which would be followed by fires from the sun and from underground that would consume the earth and the ether, destroying this world, the gods, and the planets. Seven clouds from the steam of the fire will inundate the earth, and the three worlds will be reduced to one ocean. Manu's ship alone will remain, fastened by a rope to the great fish's horn. Having announced all this, the great being vanished. The deluge occurred as stated; Janardana appeared in the form of a horned fish, and the serpent Ananta came in the form of a rope. Manu, by contemplation, drew all creatures towards him and stowed them in the ship and, after making obeisance to Janardana, attached the ship to the fish's horn with the serpent-rope. [Frazer, pp. 188-190]

 

At the end of the past kalpa, the demon Hayagriva stole the sacred books from Brahma, and the whole human race became corrupt except the seven Nishis, and especially Satyavrata, the prince of a maritime region. One day when he was bathing in a river, he was visited by a fish which craved protection and which he transferred to successively larger vessels as it grew. At last Satyavrata recognized it as the god Vishnu, "The Lord of the Universe." Vishnu told him that in seven days all the corrupt creatures will be destroyed by a deluge, but Satyavrata would be saved in a large vessel. He was told to take aboard the miraculous vessel all kinds of medicinal herbs, food esculant grains, the seven Nishis and their wives, and pairs of brute animals. After seven days, the oceans began to overflow the coasts and constant rain began flooding the earth. A large vessel floated in on the rising waters, and Satyavrata and the Nishis entered with their wives and cargo. During the deluge, Vishnu preserved the ark by again taking the form of a giant fish and tying the ark to himself with a huge sea serpent. When the waters subsided, he slew the demon who had stolen the holy books and communicated their contents to Satyavrata. [H. Miller, pp. 289-290; Howey, pp. 389-390; Frazer, pp. 191-193]

 

One windy day, the sea flooded the port city of Dwaravati. All its occupants perished except Krishna, an avatar of Vishnu, and his brother Balarama, who were walking in the forests of Raivataka Hill. Krishna left his brother alone. Sesha, the serpent who supports the world, withdrew his energy from Balarama; in a jet of light, Balarama's spirit entered the sea, and his body fell over. Krishna decided that tomorrow he would destroy the world for all its evils, and he went to sleep. Jara the hunter passed by, mistook Krishna's foot for the face of a stag, and shot it. The wound to Krishna's foot was slight, but Jara found Krishna dead. He had saffron robes, four arms, and a jewel on his breast. The waters still rose and soon lapped at Jara's feet. Jara felt ashamed but helpless; he left deciding never to speak of the incident. [buck, pp. 408-409]

Here's some others just for India alone, also as described on that page:

 

Munda (north-central India):

Sing Bonga created man from the dust of the ground, but they soon grew wicked and lazy, would not wash, and spent all their time dancing and singing. Sing Bonga regretted creating them and resolved to destroy them by flood. He sent a stream of fire-water (Sengle-Daa) from heaven, and all people died save a brother and sister who had hidden beneath a tiril tree (hence tiril wood is black and charred today). God thought better of his deed and created the snake Lurbing to stop the fiery rain. This snake held up the showers by puffing up its soul into the shape of a rainbow. Now Mundas associate the rainbow with Lurbing destroying the rain. [Frazer, p. 196]

 

 

Kamar (Raipur District, Central India):

A boy and girl were born to the first man and woman. God sent a deluge to destroy a jackal which had angered him. The man and woman heard it coming, so they shut their children in a hollow piece of wood with provisions to last until the flood subsides. The deluge came, and everything on earth was drowned. After twelve years, God created two birds and sent them to see if the jackal had been drowned. They saw nothing but a floating log and, landing on it, heard the children inside, who were saying to each other that they had only three days of provisions left. The birds told God, who caused the flood to subside, took the children from the log, and heard their story. In due time they were married. God gave each of their children the name of a different caste, and all people are descended from them. [Gaster, p. 96]

 

Assam (northeastern India):

A flood once covered the whole world and drowned everyone except for one couple, who climbed up a tree on the highest peak of the Leng hill. In the morning, they discovered that they had been changed into a tiger and tigress. Seeing the sad state of the world, Pathian, the creator, sent a man and a woman from a cave on the hill. But as they emerged from the cave, they were terrified by the sight of the tigers. They prayed to the Creator for strength and killed the beasts. After that, they lived happily and repopulated the world. [Gaster, p. 97]

 

Bhil (central India):

Out of gratitude for the dhobi feeding it, a fish told a dhobi (a pious man) that a great deluge was coming. The man prepared a large box in which he embarked with his sister and a *BLEEP*. After the flood, a messenger of Rama sent to find the state of affairs discovered the box by the *BLEEP*'s crowing. Rama had the box brought to him and questioned the man. Facing north, east, and west, the man swore that the woman was his sister; facing south, the man said she was his wife. Told that the fish gave the warning, Rama had the fish's tongue removed, and fish have been tongueless since. Rama ordered the man to repopulate the world, so he married his sister, and they had seven daughters and seven sons. The firstborn received a horse as a gift from Rama, but, being unable to ride, he instead went into the forest to cut wood, and so his descendants have been woodcutters to this day. [Gaster, pp. 95-96]

 

Tamil (southern India):

Half of the land mass Kumari Kandam, which was south of India, sank in a great flood, destroying the first Tamil Sangam (literary academy). The people moved to the other half and established the second Tamil Sangam there, but the rest of Kumari too sank beneath the sea. The lone survivor was a Tamil prince named Thirumaaran, who managed to rescue some Tamil literary classics and swim with them to present-day Tamil Nadu. [sundar Narayan, personal communication, citing Appadurai; see also Adigal, p. 70 (11:20-21)]

 

 

As far as moving to another planet, I think it's highly improbably even aside from my reservations about what the Bible says about it, since you're talking about having to take a lot of stuff a long way to just start making it habitable, let alone getting the people there. And at the rate our nations are going, everyone would probably end up destroying each other before that could become a reality.