Could God Have Planned For Adam And Eve To Fall? a discussion of human free will

[mitchellmckain 0]

The quesion of human free will versus God's sovereignty or the determism of physical law cuts right across all the lines between religion, science and atheism. So even though I will start this discussion in the following paragraph under the assumptions of the Christian world view, all comments and discussion of the quesion of human free will are welcome.

 

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The division within Christianity between those who believe in human free will and those who do not, has a long history. One critical point were the arguments between two extremists known as Pelagius and Augustine. It had become the habit of that time to solve differences of theological opinion by declaring your opponent a heretic and ex-communicating him and more often than not putting him to death. It was part of the failure of Christianity at that time not to embrace much diversity at all. And the end result was arrogant men assuming far more authority and knowledge than they really had. Thank God the Protestant reformation finally came along and eventually put an end to this.

 

Frankly if Pelagius was a heretic so was Augustine, many of whose beliefs were just as extreme and even outrageous. Augustine once said that salvation was just God choosing a few humans to replace some angels which He had lost. It is unlikely that all of the beliefs of Pelagius are embraced within Christianity today. He was an extremist - that is clear. But certainly many of his beliefs are embraced within Christianity today. I think it would have been more fruitful if the two could have sat down and talked out some of their differences but I guess that would have been too much to expect.

 

Today the same extremes are represented in Christianity by the Calvinists on side and the Open Theists on the other side. The Calvinists emphasize God's sovereignty and the utter depravity of sinful man so that the existence of free will is either completely denied or considered irrelevant. The open theist may go to the extreme of even suggesting that God even waits to see what mankind chooses to do and believe before making up His own mind about what to do or even what is right. While I am probably a lot closer to the Open Theist end of the spectrum, refuting all five points of Calvinism, I reject both of the these positions as too extreme.

 

In any case I would like to start the discussion with the following argument for the case of free will within the context of the Christian world view.

 

Many Christians emphasize God's sovereignty and omniscience so much that they conclude that the fall of Adam and Eve must have been according to God's will and plan, knowing that He could then send His son to the earth to redeem mankind, all to the greater glory of God. But if a parent set up his child to fail so that he could look good rescuing him, what would we think of such a parent?

 

We cannot trivialize this failure either since we are not talking about any of the childish things that fallen men desire we are talking about failure in the eyes of God and Adams fall from grace which seperated him and all of his descendents from God. If God is in absolute control and he set up Adam and Eve to fail, then it was at the cost of their eternal life so that they and all their descendents would be doomed to an eternity of hell. If God did this just so that He could come down to earth and save them, all for His own greater glory, then I would call this the behavior of an evil tyrant. I would not believe in such a God.

 

If you do something knowing for certain that as a result of what you do, bad things will happen, then are you not responsible for those bad things? For example, murder is not just pulling the trigger of a gun but setting in motion any chain of events that you know will lead to the death of the person you want dead.

 

Now there is a small difficulty here when other people are involved. Suppose a gunman holds a woman hostage and says he will shoot her unless everyone stands still. If a person then runs from the room is that murder by the running man? Of course not, not only because it is doubtful that the running man wants the woman dead, but also because it is still the gunman who chooses to carry out his threat. He is still the murderer not the person who ran. But this really does not reflect the kind of control that God with his absolute knowlege and power has over the situation we are talking about, so let us consider another example.

 

Suppose a computer programmer sets a trap so that clicking a series of links on the internet causes someone to be killed. Suppose also that these links actually give clear warning of what the consequences of clicking all these links will be. But the programmer knows from trial runs that numerous people will click on these series of links anyway. So the question is, when the person is killed who is the murderer? This is only a little bit closer to kind of control over the whole situation that God has in our lives. So if the computer programmer is responsible for what he caused to happen then why not God?

 

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The idea of free will not only has difficulty in theology with the conflict it has with God's omniscience and sovereignty, but there are difficulties in science with the conflict it has with the deterministic nature of physical law, and there are even philosophical difficulties which have made many people declare that the idea of free will is a logical contradiction and makes no sense whatsoever. So lets hear your thoughts on this issue.

Edited June 4, 2006 by mitchellmckain (see edit history)

[yeh 0]

I'm not really a religious person, so here is my opinion. :(Free will... logic.... science.... facts...etc. are actually not a good fit with theology/religion. Religion gets its power on its hold on people through hope, not hard cold facts. Some people say that the book(referring not just to the Bible, but other religion as well, such as Quran, Old Testament, Tripitaka etc) is the truth but unfortunately, like you have mention above, even their own brethren could not agree with them on a multitude of issues. And this happens not just in Christianity but other religions as well. I think if you were to do a thorough study on this issue of human free will vs God's will, you would find that it has been a question asked long time ago. So, which one do I believe in? I can certainly go out and buy myself some booze right now. It is totally up to me. Some would say there might be a hidden plan, just like your example on the computer program, but my question now is, What is the Plan? What do you think would happen to society if everyone believes he/she has no free will? Gee.. should I slog it out in university.. I could be destined to fail.... Gee.. should I drive my car today... I might die in a road accident...Gee... should they even bother to fix the levees in New Orleans... if hurricanes is destined to hit New Orleans, then it would hit. Otherwise, it would not. Why waste tax payers money?

[Mafamba Team 0]

I personally, not offending anyone, think whoever wrote the story of Adam and Eve, was not saying that was how the world was created, but that was something similar or a metaphor or simile of how the world got created.I doubt it would be so simple to have eaten some juicy fruits off a tree, then have created all worldwide evil.I think that the idea is vaguely correct, but I do not take that , 'word for word'.I like to think of myself as someone who believes in the cute way of evolution, the monkeys and things, which I think is a lot nicer and is an excuse to devoting my life with the Monkey Tribes in the jungle.

[yeh 0]

I personally, not offending anyone, think whoever wrote the story of Adam and Eve, was not saying that was how the world was created, but that was something similar or a metaphor or simile of how the world got created.

Very well said, Mafamba Team. I think the same way as you too.

[mitchellmckain 0]

This post is inspired by the cable TV series "4400" in which mankind of the future has abducted, altered and returned 4400 people in order to alter the course of history and save mankind. While watching the show I thought how pointless it was to resist the aims and goals of these future humans. And then it occured to me that relative to the humans of the present these future humans were effectively equivalent to God in power, knowledge and sovereignty. The idea is not a new one. It has been entertained in a number of science fictions stories like "Dune" by Frank Herbert and "The Redemption of Christopher Columbus" by Orson Scott Card. In Card's book however the intervention is much smaller, consisting of only 3 people sent back. In "Dune" it is only one man (and his children) who has the ability to see the future and alter its course, only I think this book sees beneath the superficialities to the underlying truth, that such an ability spells the destruction of human potentiality. Therefore the son and God emperor of Dune, spends a thousand years breeding humans for an immunity to his own ability to see the future. I think this idea raises some interesting theological questions. It is so easy for us to imagine people with just this one ability of forknowledge and no other qualifications, who for all intents and purposes, take upon the role of God. However when I look at the state of the world and consider that God is its creator, I cannot help feeling that this ability of foreknowledge actually trumps the power of God rather than merely immitates it. Otherwise we are logically forced to the conclusion that evil is necessary for the greater good and therefore justified. But this is something I could never accept. The possibility of evil, may be necessary for a greater good, as an inherent risk in the existence of life, by its very nature, but I repudiate the idea that evil itself could be neccessary or justified. Therefore I agree with the conclusions of "Dune" that existence of forknowledge by any being, including God, is destructive of the potential of life. I believe it reduces life to non-life, turning all subjects into objects. Therefore if God has the power of foreknowledge, then I believe he must have imposed limitations upon himself in the creation of life so that His forknowledge would not include our choices. That puts me within the bounds of the controversial doctrine of Open Theism.

[iGuest 3]

The problem I see here is your are only thinking one dimensional...Remember God is omniscient and can see all the choices we have made, could make, or will make...By seeing all these possible outcomes the Holy Spirit can be used to guide us to the decision that best meets our lives.He gave us free will so that we have the opportunity to go through the world not as automatons but as thinking beings so that we can learn and grow spiritually and truly come love and appreciate what God does in our lives.-Bedwyr777

[mitchellmckain 0]

The problem I see here is your are only thinking one dimensional...Remember God is omniscient and can see all the choices we have made, could make, or will make...By seeing all these possible outcomes the Holy Spirit can be used to guide us to the decision that best meets our lives.

But that is kind of the whole point. God does guide us according to what He sees therefore what He sees is not what we WILL do but only what we might do if He does not guide us to do otherwise or if we continue stubbornly to refuse to be guided.

He gave us free will so that we have the opportunity to go through the world not as automatons but as thinking beings so that we can learn and grow spiritually and truly come love and appreciate what God does in our lives.

Yes God created life for this very reason because it is the nature of life to defy prediction and thus by comparison predictable dead things are boring. Living things, especially children, fascinate and delight us because they are NOT under our control or predictable but do the darndest things. God created us for this reason so it does not make any sense that would know what we do before we do it anymore than we would want to read the end of a book or see the end of a movie before the beginning.

[iGuest 3]

reply to FeedBackerCould God Have Planned For Adam And Eve To Fall?

 "The problem I see here is your are only thinking one dimensional...Remember God is omniscient and can see all the choices we have made, could make, or will make..."

The problem I notice is that God, knowing every possible outcome and our reactions to his actions, has led Adam and Eve in the exact direction of eating the fruit.

Interestingly, since they had no concept of good and evil prior to eating the fruit, they were innocent and unable to understand why dissobeying God was a sin...Until after they had sinned.

That's a catch 22 and for God to hold them accountable for being what he made them to be is not good.

If God is good, then the eden story must be a myth.

-reply by corthew

 

[iGuest 3]

FREE WILLCould God Have Planned For Adam And Eve To Fall?

I would like to put forward a test for everybody to try and understand this tricky question themselves. Please try and imagine a linear timescale and try to visualise where the past ends and the present starts and where the present ends and future starts. You will  find that there is no present for us to exercise our free will.

ASHOK

[iGuest 3]

THE FALLOF ADAM AND EVECould God Have Planned For Adam And Eve To Fall?The story of adam and eve is not actually telling us how man kind was created. It is telling us that we are limited or imperfect (sinned ). One doesnt have to search far to find the reason for this imperfection. If you look at the tool with which we measure and evaluate the world around us you will soon realise this imperfection. A feet, an inch a kilogram are standards set by us for accurate measurement. And look at our mind, the tool with which we measure and evaluate the entire universe around us,remained a non standard till date.The story of eden garden tells us that the fall of adam and eve was preplannedASHOK-reply by ASHOK

[iGuest 3]

That we may know Him more fullyCould God Have Planned For Adam And Eve To Fall?

I tend to look at this from a different perspective.  The way I see it is that God is in the process of creating a family.  In order for Him to achieve the best possible family, the members in His family must know Him intimately.  The more they know Him the more they can trust Him and love Him.

One of the dimensions of God's love is His mercy.  In a perfect world where man did not fall into sin, God would never be able to reveal His mercy to us.  If this world was an eternal world, or, if we were all born into heaven and never sinned, then for all eternity, you would never be able to see God's mercy. Imagine for moment that you are living in eternity..You started out as a perfect creation and you never sinned and for all eternity you're perfect.  Would God ever get the chance to show His mercy to you?  No He wouldn't.  What for?  His mercy would have no purpose.  So what would that do to you?  It means that there is another side of God that you would not be able see for all eternity. 

From God's perspective it would probably make Him feel like a prisoner within His own heart.  Here He is loving you so much but He just can't lavish His love completely towards you because you're not in position of receiving His mercy!

It's kind of like this:  say you and I live in an apartment.  I'm a good roomate and you love me as a friend.  I cook dinner and pay my rent and I'm just a loving roomate.  Then one day you needed some money badly and so you stole the money from my wallet...You spent the money.  On the way back you broke into a car and stole the radio but the police caught you and brought you to jail.  From there you call home to me and say, "Thai I'm in jail.  I'm so sorry, I stole money from you and I got caught stealing a car stereo.  Please bail me out." 

In my love for my roomate, I bestow my mercy on him and say, "hey it's ok man.  I forgive you.  Let me come and bail you out now."

What will you're thoughts and love towards me be like afterwards?  you would understand me as a person more, your understanding of my love for you is heightened, and in return you will love me more. 

If the world never fell, we wouldn't be able to see God's righteousness clearly.  There would be no unrighteousness to compare it against.  Our unrighteousness helps us to know God more clearly because we are able to see righteous He really is, or "how good He really is!"

Here are some Scriptures to back up what I just stated:

Romans 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

- This verse is saying that it was God's will that mankind fell into sin. 

 

Romans 3:5But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? 

- This verse says that our sins helps us see the goodness of God. 

-reply by Thai

[yus12 0]

No he couldn't have.If he had planned it himself, he would not have thrown adam and eve out off heaven it was probably satan forcing them to eat the fruit.

[iGuest 3]

Could God Have Planned For Adam and Eve to fallCould God Have Planned For Adam And Eve To Fall?

God and Satan are the two ends of the same stick. God is the creator of both good and bad. He had to create Bad along with good so that good is known. Satan and evil are there is the reason why God and good exist. He had to create cruelty to give shape to Mercy. How would we know mercy and kindness if cruelty was not there? All this means that anything and everything in this world exists as pairs of opposite. One wouldnt exist without the other.Good and Bad, the beautiful and ugly, Strong and weak,tall and short  are all his creations. One is created so that the other is understood and appreciated. When I say that so and so is a good person, it only means that there are other persons who are not exactly as good . 

In other words,God created the universe at different levels of limitation. Adam had to eat the apple itself means that he is limited. Body and hunger are his limitations.

ASHOK

-reply by ASHOK

[mahesh2k 0]

I really enjoy this type of crap. First of all there is free will ? Err, i mean designer who designs something with respect to something by giving unlimited options which he even can't count ? I mean any software program is known for limited outcomes or finite one. Then all those outcomes are within the known range of designer. So how come that program has a free will ? Same applies to god, if he give us free will then any choice we make is within range of god's known outcome, and that is free will ?

[chesslover 0]

I personally, not offending anyone, think whoever wrote the story of Adam and Eve, was not saying that was how the world was created, but that was something similar or a metaphor or simile of how the world got created.I doubt it would be so simple to have eaten some juicy fruits off a tree, then have created all worldwide evil.I think that the idea is vaguely correct, but I do not take that , 'word for word'. I'm actually publishing a book on this next I'll let you guys know how it goes.