The Problem Of Evil A problem at the heart of any Theistic belief system

[Bikerman 2]

I have been a theist, and debated theism with many people over the decades, including some very knowledge and intelligent people.
One issue that is never addressed to my satisfaction is the basic problem of evil.
Simply put - why would any benign God allow bad things to happen to good people?

It is a very straightforward question, yet theologians wrap themselves up in semantic knots trying to answer it - and always either fudge or fail.

A common answer - that humans have free-will and evil goes with the territory - is a fudge. It is perfectly possible for free-will to exist without natural disasters that kill children, infants and other obviously 'innocent' people. Catholics would say that the infant is not innocent because of original sin, but that doesn't explain why they would be killed by God...

Epicurus (philosopher_) summed up the problem nicely:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

Edited August 28, 2010 by Bikerman (see edit history)

[Shahrukh 0]

I would like to answer that!

 

Blessed is He in Whose hand is the kingdom, and He has power over all things,

Who created death and life that He may try you-- which of you is best in deeds; and He is the Mighty, the Forgiving,

 

Reasons of suffering:

1. As a test (yours and others):

Allah wants to see what you will do when you are in pain, whether you are going to whine and complain or ask for His Mercy and Protection.

And when He gives you a good thing after a bad thing, whether you thank Him or forget Him till the next time you feel His need.

 

Also, when your neighbour is low on daily provisions, will you help him out or be selfish and keep everything for yourself?

 

2. As a punishment:

When a person does an evil deed, he will be punished by Allah. Sometimes, they are punished in this world, sometimes in the Hereafter.

 

Other things:

You might be thinking now that if Allah wants to 'see' what people do under these conditions then He doesn't know already. However, that is not the case.

In fact, if Allah wanted, He could have rewarded people of their deeds right after creating them. However, then those who had gone to Hell would have said that they weren't given the opportunity. That is why this world is the opportunity by Allah to do good and shun evil, so that you may be rewarded justly in the Hereafter.

Blessed is He in Whose hand is the kingdom, and He has power over all things,

Who created death and life that He may try you-- which of you is best in deeds; and He is the Mighty, the Forgiving,

 

You would note that many of the good people in the Islamic history have been tested more severely. Take the example of prophets. All prophets were tested in quite extreme ways that any ordinary person would not have been able to pass with steadfastness. Each test either brings one closer to Allah or farther away.

If you grow closer, you will tested again to see whether you can achieve the next level of closeness. If you are not nearly good, you will be forgiven by Allah until the Day of Judgement, when the punishment will be hard.

Say: As for him who remains in error, the Beneficent Allah will surely prolong his length of days, until they see what they were threatened with, either the punishment or the hour; then they shall know who is in more evil plight and weaker in forces

And Allah increases in guidance those who go aright; and ever-abiding good works are with your Lord best in recompense and best in yielding fruit.

 

Edited August 28, 2010 by Shahrukh (see edit history)

[truefusion 3]

Any scholar who trip themselves over such a simple topic requires doing more research and have to do away with any presumptions of emotion and of God. The supposed theological dilemma of the "problem of evil" is a topic already dealt with, though implicitly, in the Bible. The Bible affirms that there is evil in the world, the Bible affirms that bad things happen to righteous people (note, not "good people" since "good" is not a Biblically accurate term; that is, Biblically, doing good is not enough to be good). "Good" is a word that can only be used for those who have never sinned in their entire human life.

 

God is both willing and able to do away with evil. Why is there still evil? Because God has set times for when He will be doing away with evil and He does not defer from these set times. This consistency of God people may not like. Also, the fact that God provides warnings before His final act and gives people a chance to repent, some people may not like. But appeal to consequences (the most common thing that causes people to have trouble with the theological dilemma of the "problem of evil") does not prove that God is not capable or not willing. If you dislike His ways, then you need not call Him God. But realize that disliking His ways does not prove that He does not exist.

[mahesh2k 0]

Testing ? Utter BS. Why ? simple. If he's knowing and willing then any test and faith all ends up as drama. I can't imagine a creator asking pedophile prophets to write religious values in book that in turn create a bunch of pedophiles and suicide bombers. I mean seriously, creator who created this universe sent a pedophile to write religious values ? created a female to give birth without intercourse denying his own natural laws ? Allowing people to rape each other in his own name ? If people are defending this crap then they seriously need to research. If god exist then you can't defend his side with things like he's able, he wants us to follow bible crap and all that. Can we think of our favorite ant from bunch of 10,000 ants ? No,so even with vast amount of memory and intelligence you tend to ignore the base of things. You won't bother about underlying happenings of the BS at bottom. Do you expect creator to know the heart or life of every creation he created ? BS. No creator will waste his time teaching his creation to love him or keep faith in him, cause if one creation fails or denies him or even loves him obsessively then he can always create another. So why bother with crap of faith, prayers and prophets ? Problem with theists is that they've assumed position of creator as per their religion and the way they see fit by living in denial about universe, evolution and logic. But hey wait, people who follow bible and preach creationism think about universe formation ? evolution? and logic ? Hell no. Wait, i assumed that god exist in this post but the trouble with theists is that they yet to give empirical evidence of creator, so rant on.

[Shahrukh 0]

Can we think of our favorite ant from bunch of 10,000 ants ? No,so even with vast amount of memory and intelligence you tend to ignore the base of things. You won't bother about underlying happenings of the BS at bottom. Do you expect creator to know the heart or life of every creation he created ? BS.

Dude, a computer can identify its favourite 'virtual' ant with sufficient processing power. In fact, I think my computer would be able to do that easily if there was such a simulator.
Sure, humans can't do it, but then again we aren't even as powerful as a computer in such matters, let alone Allah.

No creator will waste his time teaching his creation to love him or keep faith in him, cause if one creation fails or denies him or even loves him obsessively then he can always create another.

And He did so. Many communities were destroyed and new societies flourished on their graves.

created a female to give birth without intercourse denying his own natural laws ?

It wasn't the only time He broke nature's law. Miracles happened quite a lot of times.

Allowing people to rape each other in his own name ?

I am not sure to what you are referring to. Could you please quote the instance when that happened?

Wait, i assumed that god exist in this post but the trouble with theists is that they yet to give empirical evidence of creator, so rant on.

Here is one (extract from http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/provingGodExists.htm):

{...}If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it.
{...}
In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half. You have 50% chances of being correct.
Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 1/2. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2), that is 1/8.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.

P.S. "It is said energy cannot be created, nor destroyed. Yet energy exists. This sounds like God to me!" seems pretty logical too.
P.P.S. Do visit this site: http://allahexists.com/
Lots of scientific, logical proves are mentioned there.
Edited August 28, 2010 by Shahrukh (see edit history)

[abazi16 0]

Dude, a computer can identify its favourite 'virtual' ant with sufficient processing power. In fact, I think my computer would be able to do that easily if there was such a simulator.Sure, humans can't do it, but then again we aren't even as powerful as a computer in such matters, let alone Allah.


And He did so. Many communities were destroyed and new societies flourished on their graves.


It wasn't the only time He broke nature's law. Miracles happened quite a lot of times.


I am not sure to what you are referring to. Could you please quote the instance when that happened?


Here is one (extract from http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/):



P.S. "It is said energy cannot be created, nor destroyed. Yet energy exists. This sounds like God to me!" seems pretty logical too.
P.P.S. Do visit this site: http://allahexists.com/
Lots of scientific, logical proves are mentioned there.

I fully agree with Shahrukh, I wanted to answer all the questions because I'm a Muslim too and nothing can make me change my beliefs but you came before me and I am happy cause you made some good arguments.
For the others:
I know that maybe it's hard for you to understand and believe in this because the world is changing fast and in these days it's really hard to believe someone, but be more open minded and read more, but read books that tell the truth not this political influenced books.

[Bikerman 2]

Reasons of suffering:

1. As a test (yours and others):

Allah wants to see what you will do when you are in pain, whether you are going to whine and complain or ask for His Mercy and Protection.

And when He gives you a good thing after a bad thing, whether you thank Him or forget Him till the next time you feel His need.

So, when he kills a few thousand babies in an earthquake, are they supposed to thank him?

Is he testing the baby to see if it cries? Hardly a fair test is it?

2. As a punishment:

When a person does an evil deed, he will be punished by Allah. Sometimes, they are punished in this world, sometimes in the Hereafter.

 

I think we can rule that out in the case of young infants....what have they got to be guilty of ?

 

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it.

False dichotomy based on begging the question.

If the object has mechanisms then it must be designed. By including that in the question the question is rendered useless because it is already assuming the answer it is trying to ascertain. It is also a simple example to refute. Point to a mountain and ask who designed it....

In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half. You have 50% chances of being correct.

 

This is clearly someone who doesn't understand maths and is going to try to impress a lot of other people who don't understand maths either. Probability theory is a bit more complex that equal weighted probabilities. If you have 2 options then there are 3 possibilities, probability indeterminate:

Option 1: select choice 1 - there is no way to know how many will do this in advance

Option 2: select choice 2 - ditto

Option 3: don't select either ditto

Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 1/2. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2), that is 1/8.

Yea hah...he can do simple sums...

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

 

Yes yes.....get on with it....this is statistics for idiots....

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

 

Here we go...

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

 

Complete crap. No educated person thought the world was flat in the 7th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

Even if they did then picking some arbitrary figure (30) out of the air means this person is a charlatan.

The greeks knew (in about 450 BCE) that the world was spherical..

Chance of Quran being correct 1:1.

Total score 0

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Complete crap.

Also totally dishonest.

10 marks off for cheating and lying.

Current score -10

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/moonlight_wc.html

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

More complete crap. Where does 10,000 come from - clearly this idiot doesn't know the difference between a compound and an element. Someone buy him a periodic table and put him out of my misery.

So, let's now analyse this properly.

Assertion - everything living is made of water (Surah al-Anbiya 21:30).

Wrong.

The typical male has about 57-60% water. We can be generous and award 2 out of 116 (number of elements) for getting hydrogen and oxygen. OK...does the quran give any other elements for living things (water is an obvious first guess - anyone who has seen blood might reasonably guess it is partly water). Nope not another element guessed. 2 out of 116 is 1/58th of a correct answer. I would do better than this by firing pins at random into a periodic table - no score.

Total score -10

The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

No, these three things show the author of this article is either a complete idiot, or a liar and cheat, and either way he is also pretty ignorant.

 

I think I have seen a video of this idiot on YouTube

spouting this sort of nonsense with adoring crowds clapping every word. Dr Zakir Naik I believe his name is. A performing seal masquerading as a science literate know-all. I was impressed by his recollection of the quran and the bible, but the rest of it is high-school level (or below) and his knowledge of science is tragic. The crowds either don't understand or feel compelled to ignore his more blatant nonsense...Idiots led by a charlatan.

 

To save time, let me just quickly say that I have already had muslims bring about 60 so called miraculous predictions from the Quran to another forum, and each one was debunked just as easily as these claims. The quran contains no special insights into science, and it contains no startling or even slightly impressive predictions about the future, or science, or anything else.

 

However, if you really want to line more up then feel free - and I'll just knock them down again.

(I've spent a long time looking at this issue for both bible and quran, so I've had some practice :-) )

Edited August 29, 2010 by Bikerman (see edit history)

[Bikerman 2]

God is both willing and able to do away with evil. Why is there still evil? Because God has set times for when He will be doing away with evil and He does not defer from these set times.

So God cares more about sticking to some timetable that the lives of the innocent. Sounds like a bit of a sad git to me - the sort of teacher who doesn't mind what you do in the lesson as long as you get there on time - (we teachers have a phrase to describe this sort of colleague. In the jargon they are known as "crap teachers").

This consistency of God people may not like. Also, the fact that God provides warnings before His final act and gives people a chance to repent, some people may not like. But appeal to consequences (the most common thing that causes people to have trouble with the theological dilemma of the "problem of evil") does not prove that God is not capable or not willing. If you dislike His ways, then you need not call Him God. But realize that disliking His ways does not prove that He does not exist.

How does an infant repent? And what should they repent for?
So this is it? The solution to the problem of evil? God doesn't act because he is on a tight schedule? Are you serious? And Christians have the barefaced cheek to call this beaurocratic time-watching mass of pomposity 'the god of Love'? Do me a favour.

"Oops...those techtonic plates I installed cheaply have just failed causing a huge Tsunami that will kill tens of thousands, including many children...what should I do? Stop the Tsunami? Er...what time is it? Nope, can't stop it. It's my day off."

What a complete and utter b*****d!

And what then happens to all these dead children? Have they proclaimed Jesus as their saviour? No - most of them are too young to talk. Have they been baptised? Some, not many. What happens to the rest?
The bible seems pretty clear about it:

John 14:6, "I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. NO ONE goes to the father but through me"John 3:5, "Jesus answered and said,Truly Truely, I say to you, unless one is born of water(physical birth) and of Spirit(Spiritual birth) he cannot enter the kingdom of God"

So off to hell they go to be roasted for eternity.

Tell me again about this god of love...?
Edited August 29, 2010 by Bikerman (see edit history)

[Shahrukh 0]

So{...}

 

I will turn away from My communications those who are unjustly proud in the earth; and if they see every sign they will not believe in It; and if they see the way of rectitude they do not take It for a way, and if they see the way of error. they take it for a way; this is because they rejected Our communications and were heedless of them.

(Al-A'raaf: 146)

 

Shall give a fuller answer as well on Thursday.

Edited August 29, 2010 by Shahrukh (see edit history)

[Bikerman 2]

I will turn away from My communications those who are unjustly proud in the earth; and if they see every sign they will not believe in It; and if they see the way of rectitude they do not take It for a way, and if they see the way of error. they take it for a way; this is because they rejected Our communications and were heedless of them.

(Al-A'raaf: 146)

 

“Religion - the ability to produce fantastic amounts of equally fantastic crap which can be interpreted to give any answer you want to hear.”

Bikerman - 2010

Edited August 29, 2010 by Bikerman (see edit history)

[mahesh2k 0]

Dude, a computer can identify its favourite 'virtual' ant with sufficient processing power. In fact, I think my computer would be able to do that easily if there was such a simulator.

Lie. And clearly wrong assumption with simulator. Because simulator example is not matched with creator because simulator is based on algorithm which is predefined for choosing and same is the case of humans when they choose something from their experience by relating. There is no algorithm for your assumed creator right ?or there is creator for that creator ? if anyone says any creator accepts only islamic thought crap as his favorite then that is pure lie. I don't need to bother to reply to other claim of yours cause they come from personal experience not empirical evidence.

 

And He did so. Many communities were destroyed and new societies flourished on their graves.

 

It wasn't the only time He broke nature's law. Miracles happened quite a lot of times.

 

Here is one (extract from http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/):

 

1. How you know that he did so ? that is your assumption.

2. Again claim without proof.

3. Thanks for preacher website links. I don't buy preaching data as proof. In fact no one buys.

 

I will turn away from My communications those who are unjustly proud in the earth; and if they see every sign they will not believe in It; and if they see the way of rectitude they do not take It for a way, and if they see the way of error. they take it for a way; this is because they rejected Our communications and were heedless of them.

(Al-A'raaf: 146)

Lol. Just because it is quoted in some book doesn't make it true.

 

 

 

P.S. "It is said energy cannot be created, nor destroyed. Yet energy exists. This sounds like God to me!" seems pretty logical too.

P.P.S. Do visit this site: http://allahexists.com/

Lots of scientific, logical proves are mentioned there.

It sounds logical too you doesn't mean it's god. Feel free for wishful thinking. I already came across such crap arguments from zakir naik and harun yahya. And they are logical ? Quran or any religious scripture is logical ? yeah sure. Thanks for laughs.

 

http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/

http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/

 

"He brought you forth from the earth" 11:61

"We created man of sounding clay" 15:21

"And He it is Who has created man from water" 25:54

"And certainly We create man of an extract of clay" 23:12

"And of His signs is this, that He created you from dust" 30:20

Dust or clay ? Or both ? oh wait there is water as well. Clay, sounding clay, dust or water - what is in accordance with the Quran? The Quran seems to be pretty vague. There actually are some scientists that believe that short RNA molecules could have formed within clay. They doesn't say if it was "sounding clay" or just ordinary clay. And they do not suggest that clay in any way was an ingredient - it was more like a good environment. But there are many other interesting theories too. Here's the short version of how science look at the Origin of Life:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life

 

Elements in the human body? Well, the Quran suggests clay, sounding clay, water and dust depending on which verse you choose to read. Here's a list of the most common elements in our bodies:

-Oxygen (65%)

-Carbon (18%)

-Hydrogen (10%)

-Nitrogen (3%)

-Calcium (1.5%)

-Phosphorus (1.0%)

-Potassium (0.35%)

-Sulfur (0.25%)

-Sodium (0.15%)

 

Yeah yeah logical arguments in quran

[truefusion 3]

So God cares more about sticking to some timetable that the lives of the innocent. Sounds like a bit of a sad git to me - the sort of teacher who doesn't mind what you do in the lesson as long as you get there on time - (we teachers have a phrase to describe this sort of colleague. In the jargon they are known as "crap teachers").

You see, when a human seeks for justice, they tend to not care about the conclusion of the guilty so long as the conclusion is undesirable to the guilty. This is shown in your own words. But something like hell, people should be given the chance to change. Again, the emotions you bring up are merely conflict of interests between your interests and God's interests. Yes, God cares about what the consequences of His actions would bring to any one people. Whether you want someone to rest in hell for all eternity for whatever reason is irrelevant (to God); God'll take care of things how He sees fit.

How does an infant repent? And what should they repent for? So this is it? The solution to the problem of evil? God doesn't act because he is on a tight schedule? Are you serious? And Christians have the barefaced cheek to call this beaurocratic time-watching mass of pomposity 'the god of Love'? Do me a favour.

"Oops...those techtonic plates I installed cheaply have just failed causing a huge Tsunami that will kill tens of thousands, including many children...what should I do? Stop the Tsunami? Er...what time is it? Nope, can't stop it. It's my day off."

What a complete and utter b*****d!

And what then happens to all these dead children? Have they proclaimed Jesus as their saviour? No - most of them are too young to talk. Have they been baptised? Some, not many. What happens to the rest?
The bible seems pretty clear about it:

So off to hell they go to be roasted for eternity.

The concept of original sin is not Biblical. Therefore if a person has never committed a sin in their life, they need not a Saviour. If they die before committing a sin, then they will be admitted into heaven without question.

This topic isn't about finding a solution to the problem of evil but the philosophical "dilemma" of the problem of evil. The philosophical "dilemma" argues that since there is evil in the world, there cannot be a (personal) god. The "dilemma" is more an emotion than a philosophical thing due to the presumptions often brought into the thought. But if one were to think clearly on the subject, one would realize it is not a dilemma at all.

If you wish to create an unrealistic and non-Biblical scenario in your head on the character of God, that is your choice. But know that it is purely fictional. It is no-wonder, then, why anyone would end such a fictional story with "complete and utter b*****d!"whatever that last word is.

Early death of the innocent or righteous is Biblically explained (IIRC, in the Book of Jeremiah). Any emotions tied to the death is merely conflict of interests. The main reason why anyone would wish for a loved one not to pass away is for selfish reasons (i.e. "I don't want them to leave me").

Tell me again about this god of love...?

If it weren't for all the times i've seen similar responses from unbelievers, i would still be left wondering how you can make statements that imply what you consider justice, only to go on and make a statement like this one that contradicts the very implications of your previous statements. I am no longer amazed at the amount of illogical construction of an unbeliever's statements; i can now only expect it. When God does away with evil, you guys complain: "How could He do such a thing!?" And when He doesn't do away with evil, you guys complain: "What on Earth is He doing!?" Your entire post screams with this inherent contradiction. People are blessed that God has more patience than any human. For if God were any human, He would have given up on the human race a long time ago.

[Bikerman 2]

You see, when a human seeks for justice, they tend to not care about the conclusion of the guilty so long as the conclusion is undesirable to the guilty. This is shown in your own words. But something like hell, people should be given the chance to change. Again, the emotions you bring up are merely conflict of interests between your interests and God's interests. Yes, God cares about what the consequences of His actions would bring to any one people. Whether you want someone to rest in hell for all eternity for whatever reason is irrelevant (to God); God'll take care of things how He sees fit.

I don't want anyone to roast anyone - I'm not nearly sick enough to wish that upon my worst enemy. There is no conflict of interest between me and God because I actually exist. My observations relate to the mythical God of the bible and are based on what you, and others, say said about him - why you think my interests are conflicted by that I don't really know.
How is someone given the chance to change when they are dead? The cases I am talking about are natural disasters where thousands of people, whom God could save, die. Are you suggesting that they can somehow reflect on their lives whilst dead? Why do you assume they might need to? Does it follow that they are guilty because God refused to save them?

The concept of original sin is not Biblical. Therefore if a person has never committed a sin in their life, they need not a Saviour. If they die before committing a sin, then they will be admitted into heaven without question.

Says you. Funny how the more zealous the christian the more certain they are of what is biblical - or perhaps not. The concept of original sin is certainly biblical, or rather it is as biblical as most of the rest of Christian beliefs and theology. Romans 5:12-21, 1 Corinthians 15:22 and Psalm 51:5 give the concept a biblical grounding, and the fall of Adam and Eve is the obvious origin. The fact that the Old and New testament are at odds on the matter is not a surprise, or shouldn't be to anyone who has read them. Different Gods, different audience, different times, different religions.

This topic isn't about finding a solution to the problem of evil but the philosophical "dilemma" of the problem of evil. The philosophical "dilemma" argues that since there is evil in the world, there cannot be a (personal) god. The "dilemma" is more an emotion than a philosophical thing due to the presumptions often brought into the thought. But if one were to think clearly on the subject, one would realize it is not a dilemma at all.

Well since I started the topic I think I know what was in my mind....It certainly is a dilemma and emotion has nothing to do with it - why would I get emotional about something I don't believe exists? I do get a bit miffed when people give silly answers to questions, and assume that they know my mind better than I do...but I won't let it spoil my day :-)

If you wish to create an unrealistic and non-Biblical scenario in your head on the character of God, that is your choice. But know that it is purely fictional. It is no-wonder, then, why anyone would end such a fictional story with "complete and utter b*****d!"—whatever that last word is.

The Tsunami was very real, The people who died were very real. There was no fault on their part and certainly no fault on the part of the children, yet they died by the thousands and, despite what you believe, many Christians believe that the unbaptised do indeed go to hell - amongst the people believing in this would be many of the early Church leaders - like St Paul, Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin...

Early death of the innocent or righteous is Biblically explained (IIRC, in the Book of Jeremiah). Any emotions tied to the death is merely conflict of interests. The main reason why anyone would wish for a loved one not to pass away is for selfish reasons (i.e. "I don't want them to leave me").

Citing the OT isn't much use because it only refers to Jews, not the rest of the people on earth, since they were the chosen people and they were the only ones who could be saved anyway.The main reason I didn't want thousands of people to die is not selfish, it is simply the wish that nobody should die in those circumstances. I would like to see everyone die in old age, during sleep. This has nothing to do with the fact that the God you profess belief in doesn't give a hoot about the suffering and death that he causes.*

* And if you believe in a powerful creator-God it follows that such a God could intervene when and where he chooses. The fact that he doesn't is 'explained' by you as being down to his timetable. I repeat - that makes him a beaurocratic, selfish, inconsiderate, unfeeling, uncaring monster.
The nearest analogy would be....ermm..Ah yes...the Vogons.

If it weren't for all the times i've seen similar responses from unbelievers, i would still be left wondering how you can make statements that imply what you consider justice, only to go on and make a statement like this one that contradicts the very implications of your previous statements.

Contradicts? In what way...I don't think you need much analysis to work out what I am saying - that the Christian God is a monster, not a God of Love. Were you confused by me asking you to tell me why you think he is a God of Love? I thought it was a straightforward enough sentence, and how you imagine it contradicts my previous statements completely escapes me.

I am no longer amazed at the amount of illogical construction of an unbeliever's statements; i can now only expect it.

Well if you care to point out the flaw then I'll see if I can answer it. Right now I see no such illogicality.

When God does away with evil, you guys complain: "How could He do such a thing!?"

Huh? When was this? I must have missed it, and I certainly haven't complained about it.

And when He doesn't do away with evil, you guys complain: "What on Earth is He doing!?" Your entire post screams with this inherent contradiction. People are blessed that God has more patience than any human. For if God were any human, He would have given up on the human race a long time ago.

The contradiction seems to be in your mind, not in my words. Why would I complain if your God did something good for humanity? If he appeared during the next natural disaster and stopped it from killing thousands of people do you really think I would be whinging at him? I would be delighted. The fact is, he doesn't. He could, but, as you say, he hasn't got time right now and the people don't have an appointment. Edited August 30, 2010 by Bikerman (see edit history)

[mahesh2k 0]

If you wish to create an unrealistic and non-Biblical scenario in your head on the character of God, that is your choice. But know that it is purely fictional. It is no-wonder, then, why anyone would end such a fictional story with "complete and utter b*****d!"?whatever that last word is.

The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ?CREATOR?, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ?God?, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ?ALLAH?.

One thing i have noticed about theists is that they pit their chest to prove that the god of their religion is true. I mean this is so predictable that you can even see this in this thread. Biblical god is real is one argument then someone comes claiming quranic allah is real and that religion is true. Not a single person from all religions made convincing note about why should god created one religion and wants us to follow that. I mean only retard god will have this much time to waste sending pedophile priests and prophets to teach his creation about religion and morality. Follow X religion and kill thoughts of other religion or forcefully convert them to that religion.(in all possible ways like politics, weapon). If not forcefully then form a charity center and hit the point where people have weakness, and get some people into conversion. Brainwash kids at small age and emotionally force them to listen to religion and respect only their religion and discard other. This type of thought process is asked by allh or jesus ? *beats me* Lots of lie in there, i only expect theist to assume stance of god and lie about how he do or don't do things.

[Bikerman 2]

One thing i have noticed about theists is that they pit their chest to prove that the god of their religion is true. I mean this is so predictable that you can even see this in this thread. Biblical god is real is one argument then someone comes claiming quranic allah is real and that religion is true. Not a single person from all religions made convincing note about why should god created one religion and wants us to follow that. I mean only retard god will have this much time to waste sending pedophile priests and prophets to teach his creation about religion and morality. Follow X religion and kill thoughts of other religion or forcefully convert them to that religion.(in all possible ways like politics, weapon). If not forcefully then form a charity center and hit the point where people have weakness, and get some people into conversion. Brainwash kids at small age and emotionally force them to listen to religion and respect only their religion and discard other. This type of thought process is asked by allh or jesus ? *beats me* Lots of lie in there, i only expect theist to assume stance of god and lie about how he do or don't do things.

Well, religious extremism like Islamism* and creationism certainly thrive on ignorance because they require ignorance in order to be believed.
There are a very few creationist scientists - and they are mostly quite sad and ridiculous figures. Creationism is just SO wrong that it contradicts just about every science at some point. Evolution is actually quite a minor clash compared with the clash with physics (the king of the sciences). They have to propose all sorts of nonsense to make the rag-tag story even partly credible and educated people see through it pretty quickly.
Likewise Islamism. It makes claims which a decent high school student can prove are nonsense, so it relies on ignorance. Don't educate women and only educate boys in Madrassars where they learn very little science and concentrate on the Quran.

It isn't an accident that there is no technologically advanced muslim country by the way. In the early-middle ages Islam was the light of reason and science. Then the fundamentalists got to power and now Islamic countries are mainly backward dependants.

*Islamism as opposed to Islam is the radical version where the believers seek to impose Islam on everyone. O-B-Laden and other Wahabbi muslims, Mujahadeen, Taliban - they are Islamists - not the ordinary honest muslims on the street. I think they are misguided but only in the same way that I think Christians are misguided. I do not hold any ill feeling towards reasonable people, religious or not, and I have several old and valued Muslim friends.
I cannot say the same for creationists and Islamic fundamentalists. I fervently hope they die out soon (naturally, I should quickly add,.....I don't wish anyone dead), because of the damage they both do to society.

And I'll tell you something that might surprise you - between fundamentalist Islam and Christianity, BY FAR the most dangerous is the latter, not the former.
Edited August 30, 2010 by Bikerman (see edit history)