A Question Of Free Will Are we just robots?

[kelvinc2 0]

Although we cannot know for sure if we are being controlled by a superior power, from a Christian perspective (I am a Christian), it is said that we have free-will. Although God knows what we did, doing, will be doing, He does not interfere directly, but through various events. It is what Christian believes in general, that we have freedom to do whatever we want, but if we as Christians accepted Jesus Christ into our heart, which then holy spirit fills our heart, then naturally we will do good things.

[Bikerman 2]

As I said, if you agree with the things I listed in my earlier post, then free will is bull. Or if you think that there isn't a need for a physical cause for physical things happening like truefusion, it doesn't matter. Because we can never change, predict or recall time continuum. Calculating such a thing would be impossible. The lesson, be less philosophical, people! Little bit of philosophy isn't bad, but you achieve nothing else than confusing yourself by thinking about how you know the chair you're sitting on exists.

Probability is at the heart of how the universe works. Quantum events are by their very nature probabilistic. That doesn't, of course, mean that we should give up and stop trying to predict - probabilistic events are predictable for sufficient numbers, just not for individual or small numbers. If you shine a torch at a window then there is no way to possibly know whether an individual photon will pass through or be reflected, but you can say with some certainty that about 5% of the photons will be reflected....

Each particle and energy "packet" was sent on a pre-defined course by the BB and it's interactions are 100% calculable given enough computer power.

Nope I'm afraid that is entirely wrong. No amount of computing power will let you predict whether the photon is reflected or not (or any other quantum event).

[Harlot 2]

I think that comparing humans to robots is not a good analogy. In fact, I believe it is a terrible analogy, as robots are not biological being. Robots can not reproduce, and even if there is a point in which they can, it is unlikely that such reproduction would be biological. Robots have no conscious, no thought, and no decision making outside of the norm of their computer coding. They can not even reprogram themselves without being programmed to recode themselves. Humans are not the same in regards to free will. Humans are biological creatures, and not are flawlessly coded to the point where there is no free will or independent decision making. Now on the other hand, humans do undergo socialization that dictates our belief and the way we live our lives. If you are born into a Muslim family, most likely you will think, act, and dress according to the appropriate standards of a Muslim. If you are born into a Christian family, most likely you will act, think, and dress like a Christian. If you live in America, most likely you will think, act, and dress like an American. In fact, if you are a Christian American, you may act and think like a Christian, but dress like a stripper or sexually hungry man or woman. Nevertheless, our beliefs are never static, and they change over time. There are people who were raised religious, and turned out to be Atheist later in life. There are people who were raised Atheist, and later in life became Christians. I am not saying this to say that we have free will, I am saying this to say that the issue is far more complicated then it is being presented as. It could easily be argued that an Christian turned Atheist was somehow forced by his society to go that route, and it was not an independent choice. I would love to hear and analyze such reasoning. What about when we decide on buying a house. Do we not have a free will on deciding whether to go into debt buying a more expensive house, or save money by buying a cheaper house? Are we hot wired to choose one or the other. Did we choose to post on this forum, or do we not have a choice. I suppose many of us have websites, but did we choose to start a website or did we do so against our will? Thinking of free will even on a simple level such as why we are here on this forum, and was it a free choice, addresses the issue of free will. In my opinion, humans have free will in some areas and don't have free will in others. Nevertheless, we have the potential and thinking capacity to have free will on all issues. One individual may have free will in an area, and another individual may not. Someone who is well read, well thought, and have a sense of self and the environment around them, may have the ability to exercise free will more so than an individual who is not. One individual, who does not understand the power of emotions, and the important of reasoning, may allow their emotions to fly off the shelf quicker than someone who understands the power and danger of emotions. Therefore, one person may not be able to make a logical choice under great emotional distress, while another may be able to. The same goes for peer pressure. Some individuals may not have free will when in a large group of individuals. They may tend to follow whatever the majority does, in fact, it has been proven that many people are conformist. A research was conducted, at Harvard University I believe. In this research, they brought 10 college students into a room. The first 3 college students were told that they were involved in a research, while the other college students did not. The person conducting the research drew three lines on a board which were labeled A, B, C,. The first two lines A & B were the same size, and C was longer. The college students were asked which line was longer, and the first 3 college students, who knew about the research picked A (they were told privately by conductor to pick A) as the longest line. The 4th student, despite his logic telling him that line C, was longer, also picked line A. The 5,6,7,8 and so on also picked A despite that fact that C was the longest line. When the first 3 students chose line A as the longest, the others were likely to conform and choose the logic of others over their own. If the three students before me say A is the longest line, then I must be crazy or can't see, and I don't want to look crazy - the 4th student must have thought. So there is a very deep complication in regards to free will, however, there are people who are non-conformist. There are those who do not go with the majority, and there question is why is that? Humans are very complicated creatures, and this is why it is almost impossible to define the meaning of free will in regards to humans, and determine if we in fact have free will. Greek Philosophizers discussed the same issues, and debated it back in forth. They discussed the virtue of human beings, and just as it was complicated then, it is also complicated today.

[Bikerman 2]

OK, let's take it deeper.A chap called Libet did some actual practical experiments which showed the gap between us perceiving and acting. Some of his most important experiments showed remarkable things. We decide to act, then there is a gap, then we act. What Libet showed was that we are already going to act in a certain way even before we become conscious of making the choice. In effect you can wire someone up, tell them to press a button whenever they decide to, and tell in advance when they will press the button, and before they are even conscious of having decided to press it.http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/ alone asks some very serious questions about the whole concept of free will.Then there is work by Susan Blackmore and others which suggests that what we think is consciousness is itself an illusion...http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/#

Edited September 23, 2010 by Bikerman (see edit history)