Existance Of Jesus (aka Christ) Core of Christianity

[kelvinc2 0]

Hi, This is KC.

 

this is the first day I return to Xisto, I want to contribute, I am a Christian, a new christian, but i'm strong in spirit.

I want to go straight and talk about the main question that affects the existance of christanity -

 

this post is exclusively for : Saint_Michael

Is the resurrection of Jesus Christ real?

 

First of all, I think, we have to gather up all the theories + stuff that proves the resurrection of Jesus, either true, or false

 

Xisto members, if you are not believed in christ, i suggest you read the following:

We cant really find a way to prove there is the resurrection of Jesus, but what we can do, is based on all the theories that we have so far, and make a close look:

 

1) Conspiracy theory: the resurrection of Jesus Christ is fake, its just a bundle of lies that sounded so real, they all aim for something.

My explaination: so, according to the conspiracy theory, its stated that the "Twelve" just come up with fake lies to get something that they long/short desired.

this theory fails to prove what did these twelve people get, according to the HISTORY (note, not bible), all twelve were hunted down because they were spreading the word of Jesus christ, one of the twelve was chased down, and got skin removed (dont know if its true, but this is what it was written), one was hung reversed cross (because this guy said he was unworthy to die as how Jesus died).

they all died of terrible death, what do they gain? if they are lying all the way, at the end before they die they would be like "ok man calm i was lying dont kill me!" but instead, they all died "in the name of Jesus."

 

2) NOT dead theory: the resurrection of Jesus is fake, but what happen is, in the cross, Jesus was beaten to unconscious, but because of the cool air in the tomb, he was revived.

FAIL!: this failzor. Look, the tomb was SEALED - friken sealed means no air can every get into the tomb, and as well, there were GUARDS guarding the tomb of Jesus Christ, there is no way for a just-revived man go against well-trained-weapon-equiped soliders. I doubt anyone here can face a Counter-Terriorest, that is right in front of your face, with a gun, pointing at your head.

NEXT, he cannot be so strong- according to the history, he was beaten by a whip called "Cat of 9 tails", this is a whip with 9 tails, each tails have sharp stuff on it, so when you whip it on that guy, it rips the skin off. according to the rule, they cannot beat the person 40 times, so what they did was they beat Jesus up with 39 times, and then throw him in the cross, and the nailed his hand, and then friken set fire. Such extreme condition, its basically impossible to survive. oh and did i mention, the cross is full of splinters.

 

3) The body was stolen and replaced!! : so, basically what happend was, the body of the tomb was stolen, and they managed to find another dude to act as Jesus.

Answer: this fails to prove, because according to the history, all the scars that were beaten on the body of Jesus remains, so meaning its the absolutely real body, + living.

 

4) they think Jesus too much, making them have the vision of Jesus: what happened is people think too much of Jesus, thus they have the vision of Jesus , but Jesus didnt actually exist anymore.

Answer: FAIL, it was stated, that there were 500 of the brothers at the same time saw Jesus. i doubt that all these 500 people have the vision of Jesus at the same time, at the same place. Jesus was raised on the 3rd day, and then he was there for 40 days, he met thousands of people, there is no way.

 

This is all the most common believes, but they all fails to prove some thing.

________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

_______________________________

 

OK, so this is another thing might people ask:

 

Q:DUDE HeS NO GOD!

A:ok, so basically, you say that Jesus is not a God, I say, He prophets all these things that will happen, he even say that oh i'm gonna die but i will come back in 3 days. tell me, who in the name of -whatever-, would say that to other people. also, when people call him "I FINALLY FOUND YOU MY LORD!" and so praise him. if he isnt truely God, then he would've said "ohh noo, i'm just your teacher, no god? wtf?" but instead, he said "Yes, I have come.", He acts like a God.

 

Q:ok even if the resurrection is real, why the heak would he wanna come back to earth, and why would he wanna go back to heaven?

A:He came back to earth, is because he is to show us He is truely God, and, He go back to heaven, because He is bound to human body:

you have to think about in a court right now to understand this-

so basically, God is sitting in the middle

we have defending lawyer - Jesus

and we have the accusing guy - Satan

 

What happend is that Satan keep telling God that omg this guy just sinned, he just said muther f**er , you should punish him

and what happend is that Jesus defends for us - well I paid for the price of them sinning, so that would equal out

---goes on forever---

 

so Jesus basically go back to heaven to be our defending lawyer.

 

ASK any question you have for this post

oh please please please use CC. I dont want anyone flaming this post. Thanks for reading!!

Edited December 6, 2008 by kelvinc2 (see edit history)

[kobra500 1]

Well, I have been told by countless people, that Jesus himself was basically proven, do I believe in the ressurection, Son of God etc. Well no, I don't but then I am an Athiest so you shouldn't expect any different.I remember those old motavational posters specifically the one "CHRISTIANITY" "the belief that a Jewish Zombie who was his own father whom we should accept as our master, and seromonially eat his flesh in the form of bread" or anyway it was something like that. Now why I know thats not it, but do you get my point, it sounds stupidly improbable. If you believed that about some random person you would be locked up for being mentally ill. But a huge group of people believe that and its a religion, I'm stealing a lot of this from "The God Delusion" so bear with me. Theres sanity in numbers.Now I'm sure you don't believe the humerous Posters message any more than I do, thats not christianity, but it shows me how improbable Jesus as the son of God is. It is much more likely this story was made up since pregnancy before marriage was an abomination in those days and age.The reason for my Athiesm is that whatever started the universe had to be simple, it is more probable that something very simple must have started it because all are beliefs stem from "Something Can't come from nothing" But God to have created the laws of physics, the earth and "Design" it all whilst he reads our thoughts and constantly judges us would mean that God would have to be even Complicated than the universe he created, therefore he cannot exist.But what if he is simple, well then we shouldn't worship or call him god at all in that case.Now you may say, well Kobra why on earth are you using someone elses beliefs in your argument. Well isn't that what christians are doing, I read a book, agreed with it, and accepted the arguments, hereby making them my point of view, Christians do exactly the same with the bible.

Edited December 6, 2008 by kobra500 (see edit history)

[kelvinc2 0]

Hey Kobra!,So what are you talking about is, there is no God, whoever/whatever created the universe is either simple or doesnt exist at all.Well, according to the Bible, it is stated that God used 6 days, specifically each day what He creates, if you are wondering that "6" days, for God it can be 6 days, but for us it can be millions of years or even trillions of year. Based on what you said, God must be more complicated than Earth? We cannot understand God, it is said that God have three forms - God the father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit. What I'm stating here is that we still have no total explanatory on how this work. This is because our knowledge just cant reach that far, so for God, earth might be just a piece of cake.All human forms were told to be created in God's image, all the good characteristics that we have here reflects God, but wherever good exists, evil exists, so in our heart there is evil thoughts. He knows our thoughts, he knows our destiny, but the choice is human, i know this sounds kind of weird, but God give us the opportunity to choice either believe him or not. What you're saying is that he must have be working so hard reading all our mind, but what if for him its just a piece of cake? its impossible for us to judge God.The pregnancy before marriage - at that time, NO one probally had the thought of pregnancy before marriage, that olden times, it is most likely marrige, then right at that night, have sex, because the couple does not have a say, and they might have never met another. Jesus was born in mary is because Jesus need to be in a human form to sacrifice for our sins. Simple - if we are created by something simple, then we are even more-simple-r, because we dont have the full knowledge of the "simple." so even if whatever it is is simple, that whatever still out-knowledges us..if you're saying simple as an accident, what accident? its improbable, if its an accident, then something/someone must have made this accident happen, it is possible though, but improbable in a way that they cannot come from nowhere, because nowhere has to be somewhere/someone. for example, programs dont come out of nowhere, its human that creates program, with some of humans knowledge, which means if the programs can think, they can never figure out other knowledge in your brain except for the ones that you were givin to the program.-KC.

[adriantc 0]

Before going any further I have to admit I am an atheist (see my avatar for details ). Until September I was in doubt; I was afraid to be wrong! Then I read Richard Dawkins 's "The God Delusion" and I decided that I am an atheist (I was no longer afraid to admit it) and there is nothing wrong with it. Now I am proud to call myself an atheist! Many will say "but religion gives us purpose, gives us morals - what happens without them?" I like to think that as an atheist my life has even more meaning and importance. There is no afterlife - everything is here and now, here and now... Death is not only a bump on the road it is a necessity because it brings a closing to existence. So I try to enjoy life as much as I can... more then I did before, because as an atheist it has a whole new meaning - it isn't a waiting room for eternal life, but a fixed amount of time in which we have to do our best to leave something behind. I can't find that quote right now, but I remember that Dawkins wrote in his book that we should enjoy life to the maximum because out of the millions of possible DNA combinations only one came to life and such we should cherish ours. And thinking about our fortune we should become more responsible individuals. So finally acknowledging my atheism made me see the world with different eyes! I guess the fact that I accept that I am alone, that there is no one helping me, playing the cards in my favor gives me strength. We must do our own fortunes, we must fulfill our dreams ourselves...

 

As for the existence of Jesus - I believe He was real... He was as real as you and me - he was flesh and blood. No more no less. He wasn't born by a virgin and He might have not died on the cross. He may have married Mary Magdalene, He may even have had children. Because He was not divine or all powerful or the son of God. For there is no God. Or at least not in the spiritual way. My God represents the laws that govern this world, this universe. My God is physics and math; my God is chemistry and coincidence. They are no bearded fellow, they do not watch us and they do not punish or reward us. But they do have something that God has not... They have proof, they have logic. My God is made out of theories, and experiments the Other is made out of only belief. He exists as long as there is someone believing in Him.

However I do not judge those who believe in God. It is their choice. A friend of mine said that if something is useful it should be accepted without question. So if believing in God brings spiritual comfort it should be accepted. As someone believing in the importance of this world I guess I should accept this reasoning too.

 

I shall end my post with a quote:

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

[truefusion 3]

I'm stealing a lot of this from "The God Delusion" so bear with me.

It may be more beneficial to you if you praticed free thinking. Isn't that the "atheist" thing to do?

 

If you believed that about some random person you would be locked up for being mentally ill. [...] Theres sanity in numbers.

Good, in that by saying there is sanity in numbers, your statement about believing what we believe in would cause us to be considered as mentally ill is false.

 

It is much more likely this story was made up since pregnancy before marriage was an abomination in those days and age.

Pregnancy before marriage wasn't what was frowned upon or condemned, it was sexual intercourse before marriage. Relevant verses: Deuteronomy 22:23-24; Matthew 1:18-21

 

The reason for my Athiesm is that whatever started the universe had to be simple, it is more probable that something very simple must have started it because all are beliefs stem from "Something Can't come from nothing" But God to have created the laws of physics, the earth and "Design" it all whilst he reads our thoughts and constantly judges us would mean that God would have to be even Complicated than the universe he created, therefore he cannot exist.

The logic doesn't follow. For one, simplicity is too simple to output complexity. Secondly, you're implying the universe is simple—when we're still trying to understand it. How simple are we then! Thirdly, you're assuming God isn't complex (i.e. in order for God to exist in your case); we don't even fully understand the universe, how much less should we God? As a fourth, God can be "simple" while still having created the universe; the universe just has to be more simpler than Him, since creation cannot be better than Creator. Which makes us even more simpler than previously mentioned—how embarrassing for us. Therefore your logic doesn't follow; therefore God can certainly exist.

 

But what if he is simple, well then we shouldn't worship or call him god at all in that case.

Actually, consider this: God's "simplicity" will always be greater than anything else, therefore making Him complex by comparison. Therefore, even if He were to be "simple," you'd still be able to worship Him and call Him God on the basis of complexity (though it shouldn't really be limited to such a basis). I think even Paul from the New Testament addresses this in one of his letters.

 

(see my avatar for details ).

I've seen that logo before, though i don't think i've seen it used as an emblem like you seem to be using it as.

 

Then I read Richard Dawkins 's "The God Delusion" and I decided that I am an atheist (I was no longer afraid to admit it) and there is nothing wrong with it.

I haven't read the book yet, but from what i heard it doesn't really prove much of anything. Perhaps you can prove what i've heard wrong (especially if Kobra500 really is taking ideas from that book—as it seems to proving what i've heard about the book). Then it would actually have some worth in buying, or at least looking up.

 

Now I am proud to call myself an atheist! Many will say "but religion gives us purpose, gives us morals - what happens without them?" I like to think that as an atheist my life has even more meaning and importance. There is no afterlife - everything is here and now, here and now... Death is not only a bump on the road it is a necessity because it brings a closing to existence. So I try to enjoy life as much as I can... more then I did before, because as an atheist it has a whole new meaning - it isn't a waiting room for eternal life, but a fixed amount of time in which we have to do our best to leave something behind. I can't find that quote right now, but I remember that Dawkins wrote in his book that we should enjoy life to the maximum because out of the millions of possible DNA combinations only one came to life and such we should cherish ours. And thinking about our fortune we should become more responsible individuals. So finally acknowledging my atheism made me see the world with different eyes! I guess the fact that I accept that I am alone, that there is no one helping me, playing the cards in my favor gives me strength. We must do our own fortunes, we must fulfill our dreams ourselves...

Yes, even atheism, being a religion, gives some kind of meaning to life (even though it is as rewarding as subjectively possible)—as the part which you surround in quotes truthfully speaks. Though you say you try to enjoy life to the fullest, you have to admit that you really don't. Let me expound: In order to live life to the fullest, you have to be utterly selfish in everything you do, otherwise you'd be restricted, which means not living life to the fullest. Therefore, what of atheism in this case? It is self-contradicting in this case. So, even though atheism gives the moral "do what you want, for you only get one chance," you realize that any good morals contradict that moral. For if you at all take into consideration anything that others think, you aren't doing what you want, are you? Secondly, you imply that those who believe in an afterlife, who are in a "waiting room," cannot be inclined to do our best in building up society, humanity, etc.

 

For there is no God.

May i ask how you arrived at this conclusion? As i am always fond of seeing the logic behind it all.

[kobra500 1]

In response to Truefusion, I didn't bother with quotes.I don't need to tell you where babies come from do I? I was saying that prehaps the son of god point was the cleverest and most devastating cover up in human historyAh I see that you truefusion are ignoring science just because it contradicts your faith. A watch cannot create a watchmaker meaning that God MUST emphasis on the MUST be more complicated. You can't understand God your right, but that in no way backs up your argument, prehaps a God did create everything, by scientific logic that would mean something more complicated than even God must of created God.I am really amazed how anyone can believe in God anymore, though thats probably just because I can't.Regardless your arguments are lame, you ignore logic in favor in faith, which is another word for, I have no proof but I still believe something, thats like guessing an answer in a maths test, where the no. could be anything, accepting it as the answer without a doubt that it is. Theres a word for that "stupidity". because I read a book, does that not make it free thinking, well it does assuming I assumed the book as true with unquestioning faith, but I didn't I analysed each point he made, the ones I agreed with for scientific and logic reason I accepted as my own opinion.Besides my own reasons for being athiest are far less persausive and glamerous. and there the kind which I will not say because they will probably be offensive.Your last point has nothing to do with the point at hand, Athiesm doesn't make me happy, but neither does Christianity, and who needs a meaning to life anyway, I just get on with it. didn't imply the universe is simple, it is massively complicated and therefore so must God.I also don't fear death because of athiesm, "ive been dead for billions of years before I was born and it hasn't inconvenienced me in the slightest" was the best quote I've heard. Also a good thing is, If things bugger up completely in life, prehaps I get a painful chronic disease, I can commit suicide without the fear of burning in hell. Though obviously I don't want that to happen, I'm just saying not living is better than living in pain for the rest of your life.

Edited December 7, 2008 by kobra500 (see edit history)

[truefusion 3]

In response to Truefusion, I didn't bother with quotes.

Using quotes would have been better, as i would not be forced to guess what part you are addressing.

 

I don't need to tell you where babies come from do I? I was saying that prehaps the son of god point was the cleverest and most devastating cover up in human history

You may have to tell me where babies come from, as i am uncertain where you are going with this "cover up" thing. Since we are talking about Jesus's birth, what was there to cover up? What was devastating about it? I could start assuming things, but i'd rather get the full details first.

 

Ah I see that you truefusion are ignoring science just because it contradicts your faith. A watch cannot create a watchmaker meaning that God MUST emphasis on the MUST be more complicated. You can't understand God your right, but that in no way backs up your argument, prehaps a God did create everything, by scientific logic that would mean something more complicated than even God must of created God.

Science, actually, doesn't contradict any of my faith—especially since a lot of scientific facts were in the Bible before scientists ever concluded them, and since it can't touch many areas of my faith, as it tries to remain in the natural realm alone. But then again, science has its theoretical side to it—so it has a fun side to it, where you can mess around and be creative, even though it still tries to limit itself to the natural realm alone in this area. But to respond to the rest of your statement: Even though i never said complexity implies design (nor do i adhere to such a thing), if God is the most complex thing in existence, then there is nothing more complex than Him, therefore there is nothing for there to have caused His existence, therefore God must have always existed. But to add to this, since i never said complexity implies design, i cannot see how you could have derived this whole part out of what i said. Concerning scientific logic, you'll have to expound on this matter, as you are implying that scientific logic says that everything has an origin. Truthfully, i'll agree with that, since science is limited to the natural realm and therefore implies God is this natural realm's origin. Concerning our inability to fully understand God (like the universe), i am uncertain what argument you say it doesn't back up, as i have introduced around 4 arguments, which i counted off, in my previous post, which you don't seem to have done away with. For this reason, it would have been better if you had used quotes.

 

Regardless your arguments are lame, you ignore logic in favor in faith, which is another word for, I have no proof but I still believe something, thats like guessing an answer in a maths test, where the no. could be anything, accepting it as the answer without a doubt that it is. Theres a word for that "stupidity". because I read a book, does that not make it free thinking, well it does assuming I assumed the book as true with unquestioning faith, but I didn't I analysed each point he made, the ones I agreed with for scientific and logic reason I accepted as my own opinion.

When you use someone else's opinion on a matter as a basis for your arguments, i cannot see how one can call that thinking for yourself or on your own. Also, calling my arguments lame doesn't do away with them, and i have provided premises to my conclusion, which if taken down, would also take down my conclusions. I am uncertain on what i did for you to conclude that i didn't use logic in any form for the sake of faith, but i haven't really seen any proof from you.

 

Your last point has nothing to do with the point at hand

Because it wasn't you i was addressing. I'll skip the rest, except for one of your statements, for that reason and because there's really nothing else to address.

 

didn't imply the universe is simple

I will only take the time here to show where you implied that the universe is simple:

whatever started the universe had to be simple

[adriantc 0]

I've seen that logo before, though i don't think i've seen it used as an emblem like you seem to be using it as.

1. It is the sign of atheists... together with the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Invisible Pink Unicorn is the symbol for atheists. [The Invisible Pink Unicorn] [The Flying Spaghetti Monster]

 

I haven't read the book yet, but from what i heard it doesn't really prove much of anything. Perhaps you can prove what i've heard wrong (especially if Kobra500 really is taking ideas from that book?as it seems to proving what i've heard about the book). Then it would actually have some worth in buying, or at least looking up.

2. Nobody cannot disprove the existence of God for it's existance does not rely on proof. As such it cannot be proved of disproved, you can only do that when you have proof. In science the lack of evidence is a sign (I have to admit - not a conclusive proof) that you theory is false. Basically it has nothing to support it's claims. To make it clear why nobody can dismiss it I'll use something I've read in Dawkin's book... Bertrand Russell's celestial teapot! Bertrand Russell starts with the idea that in orbit of Mars there is a teapot. The teapot so small that no one can see it with any telescope. Since nobody can see it, nobody can prove it - and since nobody has anything that could possibly see it nobody can really disprove it. So what is there to do? Nothing... Nobody can do anything and although the idea is very absurd you can virtually believe in it because nobody can ever prove you wrong. What this does is to refute the idea that the burden of proof lies upon the sceptic to disprove unfalsifiable claims of religions.

 

The first thing you have to do to become an atheist is to question. There is nothing above that! Question everything and everytime. For an atheist there is nothing revealed, but discovered, there is no belief, there is proof.

 

 

Yes, even atheism, being a religion, gives some kind of meaning to life (even though it is as rewarding as subjectively possible)?as the part which you surround in quotes truthfully speaks. Though you say you try to enjoy life to the fullest, you have to admit that you really don't. Let me expound: In order to live life to the fullest, you have to be utterly selfish in everything you do, otherwise you'd be restricted, which means not living life to the fullest. Therefore, what of atheism in this case? It is self-contradicting in this case. So, even though atheism gives the moral "do what you want, for you only get one chance," you realize that any good morals contradict that moral. For if you at all take into consideration anything that others think, you aren't doing what you want, are you? Secondly, you imply that those who believe in an afterlife, who are in a "waiting room," cannot be inclined to do our best in building up society, humanity, etc.

3. When I said live life to it's fullest I meant taking every opportunity, see as many places as possible, get as many experiences as possible, learn as much as possible and help as much as possible. Life means enjoying a baby's smile, it's innocence; life may also mean finding happiness in another persons happiness... it has nothing to do with religion. For religion, like it or not, did not create a better world, even when it was in power. Contrary to that - it brought misery and ignorance - it brought a Dark Age for science and knowledge.

And that is why I think we have to end religion as it is today. For it restricts knowledge. It gives answers for very BIG question. The theologists know all the answers - the scientist is a lot less proud. He knows but very little. Religion kills curiosity and curiosity is what drives progress. If we do not ask "Why?" we will forever be in a Dark Age. Knowledge and religion is like a light in a dark room. The light of knowledge drives darkness away...

 

And yes I imply that those who are in the "waiting room" cannot cannot be inclined to do their best in building up society. Because this world is only temporary. In the waiting room in the train station or in an airport, do you unpack? Do you feel at home? Doesn't the fact that you only stay for 30 minutes stop you from unpacking, stop from making yourself at home?

But it is nothing general. As they may be atheists committing crimes, so there may be religious people enjoying life and having a positive influence over the world.

 

May i ask how you arrived at this conclusion? As i am always fond of seeing the logic behind it all.

4. As said in the beginning of the post... the burden of proof relies on those who make the claim. And besides there is no logic to God. Why is the Prime Mover the Prime Mover? What moved the Prime Mover? God has no logic... I can tell you what God is: The most easiest answer to maybe the most difficult question of them all! What you don't understand you place on God's shoulders. It is the answer to all questions. The is the Jolly Joker of all questions. Atheist take nothing for granted. We know very little, but we want to discover more. That is what brought the world out of the Dark Age. The ligt of Knowledge and Reason!

 

 

I shall end my post with another quote I like:

Isn?t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

PS: kobra500's quote is as follows (I love it... I can only hope that On my deathbed I'll still remember it): (attributed to Mark Twain... unverified) :

I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.

I shall add a new quote (confirmed to be Mark's Twain's):

The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.

[kobra500 1]

Ah, but I didn't say the universe was simple just WHAT STARTED THE UNIVERSE. The universe would have started simple and grown more complex over time. There was a very clever scientist who was also christian, he cut out all the parts of the bible which contradicted his science, he was left with so little, he couldn't pick it up without it tearing in two. Anyway he then said he had a choice, Science or God. Unfortuantly he chose God, shame to see some a good mind go to waste. You are a very intelligent person Truefusion, however I imagine how intelligent you could be without this God and I'm going to say Crap for want of better word. But I respect you because unlike these other "enlightened Christians" you take the time to study it all. Even though you didn't come to the same conslusion as me.Anyway I'll say no more on this argument, we are too just different people, when it comes to religion at least.If you're right feel free to laugh at me in heaven, or hell if he really is a bastard to non-believers, you may need to make a tempory trip . If I'm right well, at least I didn't waste my life worshipping a false idol.Also Mary: I'm PregnantJoey: *BLEEP*, everyone will know we had intercourse before marriageMary: We'll Say he's holy or somin'Joey: We'll say he's the son of God.Though I doubt that it happened it is a possibility, however if mary really is the mother of Jesus she had sex with someone and it wasn't God.

Edited December 7, 2008 by kobra500 (see edit history)

[room2593 0]

Nobody cannot disprove the existence of God for it's existance does not rely on proof. As such it cannot be proved of disproved, you can only do that when you have proof.

Kobra500
This is indeed the crux of the matter, is it not? Whether or not we can prove, beyond all shadow of a doubt, that God exists. I'm a christian, and I say that you can't. SHOCK! "But you still believe in him?" Yes. I do.
Evolution can't be proven either (otherwise it would be called "evolutionary law" and not "evolutionary theory"). You can complain all day that it can be proven, but I know it hasn't been and that's good enough for me.
At the end of the day, a person has to choose which system to put stock in (or they can be agnostic) based wholly on faith. You can kick and scream all you want, but it takes faith to believe in evolution. Some Christians would argue that God doesn't want people to be forced to love him, so he left his existence in question. With proof there is no faith, don't you see? So that is why God hasn't proven infallibly why he doesn't exist. Well, whatever to that as well.
The way I see it, everyone dies. Unless evolutionists are hiding something from us. When we die, we go into the ground to wait for what comes. And I would rather be a part of the group that gets to live forever, if you catch my drift. If there's any chance of it at all, I'm there. If it takes faith to believe in either side, I'm going for the one that gives the biggest benefit, and for me, that's the christians.

As for the existence of Jesus - I believe He was real... He was as real as you and me - he was flesh and blood. No more no less.

adriantc
So do you also believe he was a moral teacher? A good person? (if most of what is written about him isn't lies)
I am going to propose that he CAN'T be. He didn't leave us a choice in the matter. He continually said that he was the son of God, divine. He said "Your sins are forgiven". That's insane! If someone were to step on your toe, you would be mad. Now suppose I gave them forgiveness. "You are forgiven. Don't think of it again". You would think I'm crazy. Now, you can't skip over that to the pieces where he gives good advice. If someone were to go around saying that they were God today, you would think they were stark raving mad!
What do you make of those statements?
There is no inbetween where he's a good person. If he existed, then he was either bound by insanity or he was who he said he was. No one can make statements like: "Your sins are forgiven thee" and "I am the way, the truth and the life" without being one of those extremes.

[kobra500 1]

But its been proved so much, unlike creationism, over here even the thiests think that creatinism is stupid. I don't use faith to believe in it, i don't need it. It hasn't been proved but it almost is.

Edited December 7, 2008 by kobra500 (see edit history)

[kelvinc2 0]

Ah, but I didn't say the universe was simple just WHAT STARTED THE UNIVERSE. The universe would have started simple and grown more complex over time. There was a very clever scientist who was also christian, he cut out all the parts of the bible which contradicted his science, he was left with so little, he couldn't pick it up without it tearing in two. Anyway he then said he had a choice, Science or God. Unfortuantly he chose God, shame to see some a good mind go to waste. You are a very intelligent person Truefusion, however I imagine how intelligent you could be without this God and I'm going to say Crap for want of better word. But I respect you because unlike these other "enlightened Christians" you take the time to study it all. Even though you didn't come to the same conslusion as me.Anyway I'll say no more on this argument, we are too just different people, when it comes to religion at least.

what you said is that, this scientist chose God because Science and God because the bible contradicts to reality. Bible, meaning God's word, God never does thing wrong. but us humans can make wrong decision, Science is basically theories that was observed thoughout the time, it can be proved wrong later on.
but how can the universe just "grow bigger and bigger + complex?" i doubt it would grow randomly just because "it does." its just like plants, they cant survive if there is no soil, no water, and no sun. so to plants - soil,water, and sun is their god. this simple example just proved that universe must have a "god"

If you're right feel free to laugh at me in heaven, or hell if he really is a bastard to non-believers, you may need to make a tempory trip . If I'm right well, at least I didn't waste my life worshipping a false idol.

Hes not being a bastard to non-believers, he is being FAIR. but because He is giving GRACE to us, we CAN be saved.SO you might be asking how is it fair if he doesn't give the equal opportunity of "grace" for us? First of all, He is being fair - you sin, you deserve punishment, its just like you killed a person, you go to jail. then, he gives you grace - this grace you DO NOT deserve it, but God give it to you because He just wants to, there doesnt have to be any reason - so by grace, God forgives and forgets your sins, so that you can start a new life, just like the giving grace to a murderer and let them free (Dont think me wrong here, in Law, they deserve jail) or maybe you can think something simple - stealing, if one is to steal something because he needs it for his mom's surgery, he got caught, and now he is in the court, there is a thing called "grace," or the judge can understand his situation, and give him grace.

Mary: I'm PregnantJoey: *BLEEP*, everyone will know we had intercourse before marriage
Mary: We'll Say he's holy or somin'
Joey: We'll say he's the son of God.

Though I doubt that it happened it is a possibility, however if mary really is the mother of Jesus she had sex with someone and it wasn't God.

first of all the point here is not that if mary had sex or not, its the angel that says the son of God will be born though her, so weather or not they had sex before marrige or not it doesnt matter, the baby is still the son of God, its just like if your mom believe in Jesus, that doesnt mean you believe in Him as well.

[darasen 0]

For those who read "The God Delusion" do yourself a favor and go read "Evidence that Demands a Verdict". I realize most won't but to read a single very opinionated book without any other opinion is rather intellectually dishonest.

To argue that Universe has to be simple to start and grow more complex is simply absurd. For one it would require that you know how the universe started and that would put you ahead of everyone else on the planet. Additionally such a statement shows a complete vacuum of knowledge in the area of quantum mechanics. (The physics that scientist have been trying to use to create a model for the pre-expansion universe) Remember things to go from orderly to disorderly. Also the notion that God could not exist because he would have to more complex than the universe is just plain silly. That is close to saying I can't create a lever or a whell because I am more complex than those?

[adriantc 0]

adriantc

 

So do you also believe he was a moral teacher? A good person? (if most of what is written about him isn't lies)

I am going to propose that he CAN'T be. He didn't leave us a choice in the matter. He continually said that he was the son of God, divine. He said "Your sins are forgiven". That's insane! If someone were to step on your toe, you would be mad. Now suppose I gave them forgiveness. "You are forgiven. Don't think of it again". You would think I'm crazy. Now, you can't skip over that to the pieces where he gives good advice. If someone were to go around saying that they were God today, you would think they were stark raving mad!

What do you make of those statements?

There is no inbetween where he's a good person. If he existed, then he was either bound by insanity or he was who he said he was. No one can make statements like: "Your sins are forgiven thee" and "I am the way, the truth and the life" without being one of those extremes.

I would like to remain you that 6 months ago some guy from Russia convinced some neighbors that the end of the world was coming and for them to save themselves they should dig holes in the woods and get shelter there. Meanwhile he was taking refuge in a house where is was warm and dry. That story and other like it (also in Russia I think there was a postman or policeman who said he is Jesus and thousands and thousand came to see him) show how fragile the human mind is especially minds with little knowledge and reason. The same with Jesus... he may have been an ordinary men (with some kind of mental disorder)... It may also be possible that all his claims where invented (or at least exaggerated) later by the church to gain the power that finally did keeping the world in darkness of a thousand years. I fail to see what kind of God would stare while they did countless crimes in his name...

 

 

To argue that Universe has to be simple to start and grow more complex is simply absurd. For one it would require that you know how the universe started and that would put you ahead of everyone else on the planet. Additionally such a statement shows a complete vacuum of knowledge in the area of quantum mechanics. (The physics that scientist have been trying to use to create a model for the pre-expansion universe) Remember things to go from orderly to disorderly. Also the notion that God could not exist because he would have to more complex than the universe is just plain silly. That is close to saying I can't create a lever or a whell because I am more complex than those?

So I guess what you say is that something to complicated to answer you simply have to call in God. The easy answer to everything. NO! Nobody knows how the Universe was created, but maybe some day, just as we did with other discoveries, we will find out. And on that day people will find something even more complicated and blame it on God because their knowledge does not give them an answer. Just because we don't know (YET) it does not mean God is involved.

[kelvinc2 0]

So I guess what you say is that something to complicated to answer you simply have to call in God. The easy answer to everything. NO! Nobody knows how the Universe was created, but maybe some day, just as we did with other discoveries, we will find out. And on that day people will find something even more complicated and blame it on God because their knowledge does not give them an answer. Just because we don't know (YET) it does not mean God is involved.

Its beyond our knowledge, I believe, not even after generations we can reveal about the universe. I do agree, just because we dont know yet it doesnt mean God is involved, that is possible, but not probable. I'm saying this is because based on the records [ON HISTORY BOOK, NOT BIBLE], none of the twelve got anything from this,instead, the twelve are constantly being caught because of them preaching the word of God. how could anyone be so stupid and go spread this false thing that they made and keep it, not getting anything from it, why would they even go and preach this crapy stuff when you will get owned by the government? unless its the truth.

This is between you and the evidence, there is although no evidence to absolutely prove that Jesus is resurrected, but all the theories have failed to prove something, and that although its possible that its just a lie, its improbable that they risk death for this lie.