God

[truefusion 3]

Wow, so much in such a small amount of time!

 

and if god DID ever exist, why doesn't he (well since you refer to him as a HE, i should use that for now) show up? is he shy? does he fear that his subordinates will judge him when they see him? whether they see him or not, he's still their god, like they can do anything about it. he at least owe his subordinates that one.

Everyone who knows God has seen Him. (I have a verse for this, but i can never find a verse i could so use until after i no longer need it...)

 

[1]uh, i have a question. i've been wanting to ask this since the last devout person who sat beside me and talked about all those bible stuff. if the garden of eden was "paradise" how come god allowed satan to pass there and have the forbidden fruit inside the garden? i mean forgive my rudeness, but isn't that kinda stupid? if i don't want evil in my place, i would drive them away myself and not just tell my "creatures" to avoid eating the fruit. wouldn't that render him powerless over evil?

 

[2]oh and one more thing. isn't your god a very manipulative god? for someone who says "i would give you free will" he sure knows how to manipulate humans into "going back to him". in the end there's no such thing as free will. if there's a fork in the road, one points to the edge of the cliff and one to the city, if i go to the road that goes to the edge of the cliff, i would die, so that means, i would rather go to the road that leads to the city. in the end, i don't have much of a choice, do i? it's like saying, "here are your options, but mind you, if you follow mine, you'll be fine. mine is the best among those other options".

[1]Do we know the mind of God? Can we examine Him like He examines us? God allows things to happen for good reason, even if we don't see it that way (at the time). Perhaps it was allowed to be an example for future generations.

 

[2]Like mentioned before, we still choose. But tell me, what's so bad about taking the good road/path? Why do so many people avoid it?

[bhavesh 0]

Believing in God is on everyones thinking and the mentality what they thought. As about me I have a deep faith on God. I believe in God, but it doesn't means I do all my works on God to complete. God is hope of ray and to achieve the ray is our Duty.

[Hadi 0]

so you mean he put it there himself, but the devil aka satan in the form of the snake teased then into eating the fruit. if he knew it all along, why didn't he prevent it from happening himself? if he cared so much for his creations, he'd do anything to let it stay away from harm.

Please don't let me repeat things, I said God created evil and good, and that is surely for a reason, God can put evil in a totally different dimension, and good in another, but he merged them together. He can prevent it from happening, but he wanted that human be responsible of their own actions. One thing to point at some questions only God knows it answers, if someone asked me why did God created the universe? I would tell him I don't know. So for the last question I don't exactly know the answer.

what is he trying to prove exactly? he created his creatures in "his own image and likeness" so that means they inherit most of the characteristics that he has. but by doing such, as you put it, would make humans look stupid. if he knew everything would happen, he could have prevented it himself.

God, didn't want to prevent it. He is trying to prove that people can do bad things and good ones.

what?! why would he want something that would be a pain to him later on? i don't get it. is there any statement in the bible that says he created even evil, or should i say he even created satan?

Do you think I use just the Bible as a reference? I use the Bible, Torah, Quaur'an, and lots of other scientific books, that combines things told by these holy books and what has been discovered by humans yet.
Satan, is the birth of evil, God didn't create directly evil, he created satan who was a Nice angel, but he refused to obey his God's order so he turned out to an evil daemon. So basically God created evil.

those are trivial stuff. i was referring to making decisions in life, like what path to choose. i can't believe you took my example literally. all the options have been laid out in front of man, it's up to him to choose what path to take, thus free will. but by putting up the idea that "he has the best option among the others", he let's his creations choose for themselves, yet they are manipulated to think that if they take his option, they'd be better off in life. do you even get my point? in that sense, he still manipulates his creatures on what to choose, which takes away the sense of having free will.

Excuse me for my english comprehension problem, but It's kinda hard to learn 5 languages and be good at all of them.
God gave us free will, we can do whatever we want, but he guided us to the path that leads to heaven. So we can follow his directions and be safe in paradise, or we can choose the thing we want and turn to evil.

Here is an important thing concerning this argument: You take the "good" road, but there is lots of good roads, for example it's good to eat fish instead of hamburgers, but it is also better to have vegetables. Just in "bad" roads, you can steal which is bad, and you can kill which is worst. So you can choose the road you want, but when the road is better it is more difficult to stay on, but it is easy to go to the worst road.

yes. but i was saying how he MANIPULATES his creatures by telling them his option is the best option. sure humans can take other paths if they want to, that there are even better options out there, but most of them who believe that they need to be better off in life would want to go for the best option.

Like I said look UP.

and what does this have to do with god exactly? you know most books only describe evil as "ugly" because it's the best description they can associate to it. good = pretty, beautiful. bad/evil = ugly. which by the way is the worst case of stereotyping. actually in the basis of attraction, evil can turn into the most beautiful thing just to get its victim in its claws. who would be tempted into going for someone that doesn't look that great (again, bad stereotyping).
and with regards to "will be treated very well before the final day arrives", i thought the concept of purgatory isn't real? isn't it that it has been decided that once a person dies, he may only go to heaven or hell, whichever applies most. only people who want to have a "last chance" after dying would think of the idea of a purgatory.

What this have to do with God? I think you need a redefinition to who is God, he created everything!
Evil isn't always ugly, and evil isn't "bad", eating junk food is bad to your body but it ain't evil. Evil can be killing, stealing cheating lying, beating someone for no reason. And good isn't always pretty. Like I said that creepy creature that comes to you when you die is good but ugly. If someone is ugly so he is evil? That's 100% wrong. What's purgatory, I won't bother myself searching. Everyone human will go to hell or to heaven, but until the final day arrives every one dead, will be in their graves.

it doesn't explain the existence of god. dreams occur because they help people in coping up with all the demeanors that they weren't able to deal with in their waking state. so since the mother can't move on from the death of his husband, this dilemma of hers became instilled in her subconscious, that only in dreams she could find a perfect peace.

Yeh, and don't you wonder where those ideas got to her head? God sends dreams to humans which can be translated into something that have sense.

i thought the guy was already dead? how do you know he is nice and polite? just because you think he's nice and all, doesn't prove the correctness of what the woman has said. again, it might be just her own interpretation of her dreams.

The husband was dead that's true but that doesn't mean that I didn't meet him. I knew all my life. What's wrong in that?The language of dreams is a well known one, and lots of people around the world knows it, and magically all what those people said explaining to other people's their dreams truly happened. Isn't that suspicious?!

let's be serious now, shall we? sneezing is a reflex that the brain acts upon to eject any foreign material that comes inside the body. if he's dead, meaning brain dead, he won't be able to do that. if that's the best "proof" you have, then i'm not convinced.

Oh so you want more proves?! Ok I have lots of them, God said that there will be women dressing clothes very tight that you can see there inside body, and that happened.God said that pople will have sudden deaths, and that happened (hearth attacks)
God said that people can't create nothing not even a small insect and that didn't happen neither will happen.
God said that people will be very attracted by money and will do sacrifices to get it, and that happened to most of people.
God said that very tall buidings (scrappers) will be built by humans and that happened.
God said that a huge mountain of gold will appear in the Furat river in Iraq, and people will make wars to get their hands on it, that didn't happened yet, but I'm definitely sure that it will happen.
Need more facts and proves just ask, I have many more but my hands are exhausted.

[heavensounds 0]

Acctually the thing is, that you are watching yourself! God is the GOOD inside you and inside everyone else. When you feel good when you help an old lady across the street this is GOD withing you speaking. However, we should know that we all have the exact same good (GOD) inside everyone of us. God is therefore everywhere and in every being including animals (don't they cry if you hit them and make happy voices if you feed and love them?). So if you are looking for the meaning of this life, you should know that you and only you are the one to solve this problem. Noone can help you, but someone may show you the path - it is then your decision to follow it or not.If you look around yourself, you'll see that what is going on is acctually suffering and joy but after each and every joy there is suffer, because all our joys come to an end one day - they dissappear and all we have are memories..So there is no sense in it all or IS IT???The thing is that you should know, that if you TRULY REALIZE this constant changing of joy and pain, YOU ARE FREE - you are free from all this nonsense and that makes you UNATTACHED to these material things that end one day...What is there left to make you unhappy?? If you manage to be truly unattached (and that should be the GOAL OF EVERYONE's LIFE!!) you are constantly happy...It is hard to achieve but it is possible and by practicing it, you become less and less attached to this weard world...So there is a lot of sense right? :PBest whishes

[ferret 0]

To be honest, yes granted, the big bang has flaws in it... But the story of an all powerful being doesnt exactly cover it all does it? Religious people may want to give out views about God etc, but there is still more evidence of big bang.. What evidence is there to say that God is true. How was the universe made? i dont know, maybe it was an all powerful being, called god. It just doesnt make sense. Also, suffering, The bible says " blindness, and pain is not revenge, or punishment, but happens so that god can show his power by curing them" well i know people that have been born, and died blind, so how is that showing his power? Also, if God is real, which may be true, then why are babies dying of cancer. What have they done wrong?

[truefusion 3]

it doesn't explain the existence of god. dreams occur because they help people in coping up with all the demeanors that they weren't able to deal with in their waking state. so since the mother can't move on from the death of his husband, this dilemma of hers became instilled in her subconscious, that only in dreams she could find a perfect peace.

You are right to say that dreams come with many worries (Ecclesiastes 5:3), but even we can't tell ourselves what to dream. Yes, our dreams may answer current problems, but even then they're a bit hard to comprehend, and only God can give one the ability to interpret dreams (Daniel 2:27-28). And also God does speak to us through our dreams (Job 33:14-18).

 

[hr=noshade]

Acctually the thing is, that you are watching yourself! God is the GOOD inside you and inside everyone else. When you feel good when you help an old lady across the street this is GOD withing you speaking. However, we should know that we all have the exact same good (GOD) inside everyone of us. God is therefore everywhere and in every being including animals (don't they cry if you hit them and make happy voices if you feed and love them?).

 

So if you are looking for the meaning of this life, you should know that you and only you are the one to solve this problem. Noone can help you, but someone may show you the path - it is then your decision to follow it or not.

 

If you look around yourself, you'll see that what is going on is acctually suffering and joy but after each and every joy there is suffer, because all our joys come to an end one day - they dissappear and all we have are memories..

 

So there is no sense in it all or IS IT???

 

The thing is that you should know, that if you TRULY REALIZE this constant changing of joy and pain, YOU ARE FREE - you are free from all this nonsense and that makes you UNATTACHED to these material things that end one day...

 

What is there left to make you unhappy?? If you manage to be truly unattached (and that should be the GOAL OF EVERYONE's LIFE!!) you are constantly happy...It is hard to achieve but it is possible and by practicing it, you become less and less attached to this weard world...

You are right to say that God is the good within us. You are also right to say that God is what has us commit good. And you are also right that fearing God, full submission to Him, would mean complete detachment of the world. But, no, we are not the ones that are watching ourselves (Proverbs 16:25, 20:9, 21:2).

 

And grief is a blessing, but many don't realize it.

[/hr]

[master_bacarra 0]

[1]Do we know the mind of God? Can we examine Him like He examines us? God allows things to happen for good reason, even if we don't see it that way (at the time). Perhaps it was allowed to be an example for future generations.

[2]Like mentioned before, we still choose. But tell me, what's so bad about taking the good road/path? Why do so many people avoid it?

[1]that is the point of ASKING these questions. i happen to be one of the persons who doesn't accept things the way they are, so if i don't get the answers for the questions, i find them myself.

 

[2]like what i've said, people like me BELIEVE that there are better options. do i have to repeat myself over and over? MY POINT IS we do have free will, but by god saying that his option is better, he "pushes" his creatures to choose his way. i'm not saying that taking his path is bad, i just believe that there are better options to it. ugh.

 

[1]Please don't let me repeat things, I said God created evil and good, and that is surely for a reason

 

[2]God, didn't want to prevent it. He is trying to prove that people can do bad things and good ones.

 

[3]Do you think I use just the Bible as a reference? I use the Bible, Torah, Quaur'an, and lots of other scientific books, that combines things told by these holy books and what has been discovered by humans yet.

 

[4]Satan, is the birth of evil, God didn't create directly evil,

 

[5]he created satan who was a Nice angel, but he refused to obey his God's order so he turned out to an evil daemon.

 

[6]Excuse me for my english comprehension problem, but It's kinda hard to learn 5 languages and be good at all of them.

 

[7]God gave us free will, we can do whatever we want, but he guided us to the path that leads to heaven. So we can follow his directions and be safe in paradise, or we can choose the thing we want and turn to evil.

 

[8]Here is an important thing concerning this argument: You take the "good" road, but there is lots of good roads, for example it's good to eat fish instead of hamburgers, but it is also better to have vegetables.

 

[9]Just in "bad" roads, you can steal which is bad, and you can kill which is worst. So you can choose the road you want, but when the road is better it is more difficult to stay on, but it is easy to go to the worst road.

 

[10]I think you need a redefinition to who is God, he created everything!

[1]you know the answer "FOR A REASON" or "FOR THE BEST" is not good enough explanation. it's an answer most devouts would give me. that things are happening for a reason. for someone who's trying to find answers, that reply would make everything even more blurry than it was before.

 

[2]what?! he made humans to his own image and likeness, meaning they're initially good, and now he's trying to prove that they're bad? and he's trying to prove that to whom? to the devil/satan?

 

[3]i thought science doesn't go well with religion? i thought scientific stuff doesn't match those of written in the bible? oh so by mentioning that, you're trying to disprove anything science has proven by saying that whatever science cannot explain, the religion can. that goes back to what i've mentioned way before.

 

[4]hm... i though he created evil? and since many of you say that everything came from god or was created by god, it means even evil was created by him.

 

[5]um actually, lucifer, the fallen angel is not the same as satan. most people believe that they are the same, but it was just a reference.

 

[6]what i've said was in plain english. you don't need to interpret it like to the deepest level in order to get my point.

 

[7]see what i mean? you're actually trying to point out that only his "path" is the best path, that by choosing other paths or options, you're already doomed for eternity (okay maybe that's a bit of exaggeration, but the point is there). by saying that, you're already agreeing that your god is a manipulative god, that whatever he says you'd follow without any hesitation.

 

[8]look, how many times do i have to say that this is not about trivial stuff? sure i can eat meat or fish or chicken, heck i can even eat oatmeal for breakfast. yes choosing what you eat for today might affect your overall appearance or health in the long run, but it's not connected to what we're talking about. that's not the point. what i'm trying to say here is that the decisions you make in life is the point of the argument, not the trivial stuff.

 

[9]the basis of "bad", "worse" and "worst" is also deeply rooted to what the religion tells us...or you. it's as if you're saying "by believing in my god, i'm in the right path, and you're not, so you're doomed". you believe what your religions says to you so by following it, you believe you're doing it the "right" way. what i'm trying to say is that i do not believe that his (your god) is the best option there is, that there are other good paths (or even better).

 

[10]no, you don't tell someone to have their dictionaries readjusted to whatever you say. who knows, one word to you might mean another to someone else. you don't tell them that what you believe is the right one. this one of the reasons why there are a lot of misunderstandings because some people do not respect other people's beliefs. they just stick to what they believe in and shun everything else out.

 

[1]Evil isn't always ugly, and evil isn't "bad", eating junk food is bad to your body but it ain't evil. Evil can be killing, stealing cheating lying, beating someone for no reason. And good isn't always pretty.

 

[2]If someone is ugly so he is evil? That's 100% wrong.

 

[3]Like I said that creepy creature that comes to you when you die is good but ugly.

[1&3]did you actually read the earlier conversation? i was wondering how were you able to conclude that it's a "creepy and ugly" creature that comes to you when you're dead? do you have any proof that it is CREEPY and UGLY? that's what i was trying to ask if it has a direct correlation between our conversation about god. i was also telling you that evil doesn't always show itself up as ugly, and that in order to attract its prey, it has to cloak itself to a beautiful creature. i think it's in the bible, the part where jesus was in the desert and suddenly satan transformed itself to a beautiful woman and tempted him (or something along those lines). i was just merely stating an example. you, in the other hand is trying to throw the question back to me.

 

[2]of course, did i say it was correct? i never mentioned it was correct.

 

[1]What's purgatory, I won't bother myself searching. Everyone human will go to hell or to heaven, but until the final day arrives every one dead, will be in their graves.

 

[2]God sends dreams to humans which can be translated into something that have sense.

[1]in their graves? i thought it was either hell or heaven? only wandering souls have unfinished business, but i guess that equates to having a "purgatory". fyi, purgatory is where souls are checked for their sins and whether they are worthy to escalate to heaven or descend to earth.

 

[2]again it's one of those stuff that "whatever science can't explain, religion can" thingy. but do you know that you can make your own dream? anyway, i'm just taking things on a lighter note, since i've been talking too serious for the past, oh i don't know, paragraphs maybe.

 

God said that there will be women dressing clothes very tight that you can see there inside body, and that happened.

God said that pople will have sudden deaths, and that happened (hearth attacks)

God said that people can't create nothing not even a small insect and that didn't happen neither will happen.

God said that people will be very attracted by money and will do sacrifices to get it, and that happened to most of people.

God said that very tall buidings (scrappers) will be built by humans and that happened.

God said that a huge mountain of gold will appear in the Furat river in Iraq, and people will make wars to get their hands on it, that didn't happened yet, but I'm definitely sure that it will happen.

what the... are you trying to make a fool out of me? i am starting to get offended here. i'm on a serious talk and the best you can say is "that didn't happened yet, but i'm definitely sure that it will happen"? i can't believe this...

 

So if you are looking for the meaning of this life, you should know that you and only you are the one to solve this problem. Noone can help you, but someone may show you the path - it is then your decision to follow it or not.

who is this someone? first you talk that god is within us, then you say that there is this certain someone that may or may not exist. what the... no one can help me, so what happened to god? are you trying to say that in the end i'm left all alone? your argument doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[1]You are right to say that dreams come with many worries (Ecclesiastes 5:3), but even we can't tell ourselves what to dream.

 

[2]Yes, our dreams may answer current problems, but even then they're a bit hard to comprehend, and only God can give one the ability to interpret dreams (Daniel 2:27-28).

 

[3]And also God does speak to us through our dreams (Job 33:14-18).

 

[4]And grief is a blessing, but many don't realize it.

[1]actually we can. we can even make our own story for our dream.

 

[2]everyone has the ability to interpret their own dreams. it's not god-given, it's what we have learned through our daily adventures in life, like studying. it so happens that you say it was given to you by god because that's what you believe in.

 

[3]really? so how do you become the lucky guy huh? so you instantly get shunned by him if you don't believe in him. okay, fair enough.

 

[4]are you sure? you know, i have suffered pain, emotional pain, more than any people can imagine. i constantly seek for answers of why do i keep on suffering the same pain over and over. that's something your god can't even answer. devouts always say "god doesn't give you anything that you can't hadle", but that answer doesn't lead to anything at all.

[irdix 0]

Those rocks could have just always existed. There were neither created nor can they ever all be destroyed.

Playing devil's advocate here, there must be thousands or millions of planets in our Local Group yet we are the only planet with the correct ingredients for life. Out of all the millions of species on the Earth, we are the only life form intelligent enough to build things for our comfort and not for necessary for our survival.

I agree.. maybe there are billions of planets wich are on the universe.. but in our solar system we(human) always looking for another place wich are suit for us.. well who knows if jupiter were suit for other species but it's not for human.. that's becouse we(human) search an environement that suit us.. we create our own limit of searching.

 

What Come on isn't it obvious? God is made up, by humans. To Cause fear, so we will behave. Like people say that God wants you to not steal, or do any bad things. (Or he will smite you or something like that)

It was to Cause order in people to make us behave. But I do not Care for such a thing. There is not any actual proof. It is very easy to lie.

it is, I agree with you, but I guess nothing wrong if that's make the world as a better place to stay

 

I think God put it there to test Adam and Eve's faithfulness. "You can have this garden as long as you don't eat from the Tree of Knowledge".

now you think you can understand god ? cool..

 

For the first question, God gave the ability to the Devil to take whatever shape he would like. So he sneaked in the garden and bypassed the guards of it. But God knows all this before it happens, he wanted to make an example that humans can easily forget. God want evil and Good, he created them. It's kinda difficult to explain. So you must help me too to get you a clear idea and facts about God's Existence.

you do really know what God want and God don't want ?

 

For the second part, God made destiny, and he know the future. He gave us free will, can't you decide what you will eat today? Can't you walk on this street instead of another, that's a free will. But God knows also all the consequences to choosing this instead of that. Free will is controlled by you, never less God knows what you will choose and what will happen, but it's you who did this Consequence and this choice. God just know what will happen.

a free will so it's even free to say that God doesn't exist ? and if He know it before time, then why(it seems) can't you accept other's free will ?

 

Now you're talking, I have a complete book about what will happen when you die. When the dead will be buried if you acted good or bad in life, the most ugly creature will come to you inside your grave and will ask you a couple of questions, if God told him he's telling the truth, then your grave will be very large and you will be treated very well until the final day arrives. I read also that dead people can go to other graves and talk to other dead but not living. And Vice versa living can go talk to dead. Really!!

is that the truth ? or it's did the writer found out by himself ? wow.. if it does then he is a (what we say as) zombie..

 

If you want a true story here is one that I was a witness of it:

In 2003, my best friend's parent went walking near their house to get some fresh air, it was late in the night. So they were crossing a wide road when they saw a crazy fool driving in an insane way and extremely fast, so the father pushed his wife to the safe side while he was hit by the car and flipped over and over in front of the mother's eyes and died instantly. The mother just became sad till now. From couple of days ago, I gave them a visit. The mother told me that she has been seeing dreams of her husband in heaven and he had a lamp (just like aladdin) on his feet. he told her that I will protect the house from every human, and that everyday I will go down to earth and will check on you and spend the day with his kids, but at night he must go up to heaven again.

These dreams kept repeating plenty of times, and one day the mother went to her friend which can translate dreams into common sense, she told her that the dream means that God gave her husband a very special place in Heaven and that God will keep her kids safe.

 

And I think that all these things that this women said are true, because the husband was so nice so polite and quiet, and he deserves nothing but heaven.

That is also another fact of God's existence. I know someone who was dead and then he sneezed and he woke up again.

In my humble oppinion.. since you said that the husband deserves nothing more than heaven, than that makes you as God, and so the woman well it seems you are a better "GOD" for me since you do understand all what God do, even you know and predict where a died man should go to.. wow.. cool

 

 

Pardon me for my comment

 

we(human) are feel comfortable if we can understand things, thats include understanding God.. in this post you'll find a lot of comment from me, IMHO it's just a comment of the "free willed" human as I do have brain to use to creating post as I use the brain think. The way human understanding things there(previous posts) are by taking God into human's attitude (how shoul I say this in English.. ) I mean, we take God into "how a human usually act" (read the brown collored sentences in this post).

 

let's say God is in our own way of preception, sometimes we learn from other's preception..

see how God "want" (did we human ever know what God wan't? ).. How God "gave test" to Adam and Eve's faithfullness (it seems God didn't fully know how his creation will act -this breaks his own statement that God know the future/everything- ).. How god "choose" to gave human free will (to choose.., this means there were an option.. who/what/why gave God an option? ).. How God will keep her(the died husband's wife) kids safe (is this means that there will nothing bad happend to them? they won't die maybe? they won't get sick? they won't got an "small" accident ? -wow..- what a God..). Okay if that's what "God" is all about, then I have to pass on it.. it's too "weak" for a God

 

IMHO God exist in our own way of think, what my God is surrely not your's, so do your's is no mine.. we have our own preception to see God.. and I choose not just to accept other's preception/teaching, I choose to hear what "my self" should said about it.. btw.. it's just my humble oppinion.. I say you all are right in your own preception/perspectif..

 

[truefusion 3]

[1]that is the point of ASKING these questions. i happen to be one of the persons who doesn't accept things the way they are, so if i don't get the answers for the questions, i find them myself.
[2]like what i've said, people like me BELIEVE that there are better options. do i have to repeat myself over and over? MY POINT IS we do have free will, but by god saying that his option is better, he "pushes" his creatures to choose his way. i'm not saying that taking his path is bad, i just believe that there are better options to it. ugh.

[7]see what i mean? you're actually trying to point out that only his "path" is the best path, that by choosing other paths or options, you're already doomed for eternity (okay maybe that's a bit of exaggeration, but the point is there). by saying that, you're already agreeing that your god is a manipulative god, that whatever he says you'd follow without any hesitation.

[3]i thought science doesn't go well with religion? i thought scientific stuff doesn't match those of written in the bible? oh so by mentioning that, you're trying to disprove anything science has proven by saying that whatever science cannot explain, the religion can. that goes back to what i've mentioned way before.

[9]the basis of "bad", "worse" and "worst" is also deeply rooted to what the religion tells us...or you. it's as if you're saying "by believing in my god, i'm in the right path, and you're not, so you're doomed". you believe what your religions says to you so by following it, you believe you're doing it the "right" way. what i'm trying to say is that i do not believe that his (your god) is the best option there is, that there are other good paths (or even better).

[1]I, too, don't accept things without first examining/testing things. Many times i have had to go out and find the answers myself, as well.

[2 & 7]What are the better options? And we obey 'cause we love. Just like we obey our parents.

[3]There are plenty of verses in the Bible that have been scientifically proven (e.g. the water cycle, the Earth is a sphere/round; to name a couple).

[9]They're labeled that for a reason. It's an easy access to wisdom. If you know about it beforehand, there's a higher chance of avoiding it.

I have a Proverb for you: Proverbs 28:5.

do you have any proof that it is CREEPY and UGLY? that's what i was trying to ask if it has a direct correlation between our conversation about god.

In the Qur'an, it says that God turned all angels who disobeyed Him into disturbing, ugly-looking beings.

fyi, purgatory is where souls are checked for their sins and whether they are worthy to escalate to heaven or descend to earth.

Purgatory is a Catholic belief where they are not checked for their sins, but rather are those who are saved but need some punishment before entering Heaven. It's an addition to scripture derived from these verses: Matthew 5:26; Luke 12:59.

[1]actually we can. we can even make our own story for our dream.
[2]everyone has the ability to interpret their own dreams. it's not god-given, it's what we have learned through our daily adventures in life, like studying. it so happens that you say it was given to you by god because that's what you believe in.

[3]really? so how do you become the lucky guy huh? so you instantly get shunned by him if you don't believe in him. okay, fair enough.

[4:1]are you sure? you know, i have suffered pain, emotional pain, more than any people can imagine. i constantly seek for answers of why do i keep on suffering the same pain over and over. [4:2]that's something your god can't even answer. [4:3]devouts always say "god doesn't give you anything that you can't hadle", but that answer doesn't lead to anything at all.

[1]Could you do me a favor? Tonight when you go to sleep, make yourself dream about flying in the clouds, while burgers with wings accompany you, and have them say, "Welcome to Burger Heaven. May i take your order?" Oh, and feel free to add anything you'd like to the aforementioned story.

[2]You're right, it is what i believe in. But even i provided some proof on why i believe it. Why do you believe it's not a gift from God? Surely, it can't be because my statement is illogical.

But, for the sake of conversation, allow me to give a possible dream and you interpret it. Let's say a metal ball is rolling around the earth. It rolls into the sea, and it rusts. It comes out of the water and unto some rocky ground. The rocky ground scratches the metal ball up a lot. It rolls off a cliff and gets dented. Then a bright ray of light shines on it, and that light heals the ball completely (no rust, scratches or dents) and gets lifted and placed upon a bed of flowers. End of dream.

If you're willing, please, interpret the dream.

[3]No, not instantly. You yourself have to first shun Him plenty of times—which is about as many times as He has called you—before He shuns you. But, even then, He only stops calling you out for a while.

[4:1]I am sure. It makes us realize all other blessings. Was your suffering as bad as Job's? Did your suffering make your body reject food? Did your suffering get worse after waking up?
[4:2]That's not true, for even i know the answer. If you had read the Bible you would realize why such things happen. You'd be surprised how many times it answers such a question.
[4:3]Reference: 1 Corinthians 10:13. Read the Book of Psalms, then you may understand where that response leads to.

[Watermonkey 0]

Somewhere in the bible, it says of God, ?I Am.? Implied in that is my belief which I?ll write down here for your consideration: God is the light and the darkness, the cold and the hot, the day and the night. God is both masculine and feminine. Of black holes and new stars, all the energy in existence in the universe is of God which is why God is the creator. God is omnipresent because each soul that is present now and ever will be and ever was is part of God. If just one soul were to somehow be destroyed completely a little piece of God would be destroyed. But energy can neither be created nor destroyed, so therefore God?s existence is intact and unchallenged. The Devil, Satan, Lucifer, Dark Prince, whatever you wish to call this being, is a necessary part of God?s creation. You?ll never meet a Satanist who doesn?t believe in God. God is necessary to that philosophy or religion. God is represented in my Avatar. The yin and the yang; opposites, without one the other can not exist because each opposite needs its counterpart for reference. As an example, without misery, how can there be happiness? How would we know we?re happy if sadness weren?t experienced once in a while? Would we know what the day is without the night? Where there is evil, it?s balanced with good, the universe and, therefore God, abhors imbalance. How can you deny what you experience every conscience moment of your life? God is everywhere and if the force of God spontaneously creates a ?Messiah? every couple thousand years it?s because the need for one was overwhelming. (A ?spontaneous conception? is one of a couple ways to explain Mother Mary?s intact virginity). To ?worship? a messiah may not be for you, I believe Jesus even said to his disciples ?don?t worship me? or something to that extent. I?m personally uncomfortable praying to Mother Mary or any of the Saints, Jesus too, but I doubt it actually is a ?bad? thing to do. Many cultures still pray to their ancestors, is it wrong? No, I think not, it?s simply a choice. Knowing the universe is receptive to the vibrations of prayer, is what makes prayer work. You may visualize it in any way you choose; the mechanism remains the same. ?God? hears your prayers, and if the universe remains in balance, yours might just be answered too; especially if the answer regains some balance that wasn?t there before. The paradox is, would the result of the prayer have happened even if you didn?t pray for it?Maybe Buddha was a messiah too, I think, but I question weather some so-called ?messiahs? are actually messiahs. That?s beside the point, though. Be one with the universe and you?ll be one with God. And don?t forget, just because you don?t believe in God, doesn?t mean God doesn?t believe in you.

[Yratorm, LightMage 0]

(A reading from the first book of Yratorm)

 

For Yratorm came down from his mountain and he sayeth....

All ye who stand here, hail and bow down before Master Bacarra and Electriic Ink for the patience with which they have answered Hadi. For even the angels knoweth that such as he require great patience to answer.

 

And now Bacarra and Ink will truly be blessed and their fields will be blessed and their cows shall grow fat and their flocks of sheep shall multiply.

For behold he (or she) who shall oppose the fanatic shall be rewarded.

 

_____________________________

Okay, please ignore the previous paragraphs . I've often thought about how profitable it would be to start my own religion, and I was just trying out the writing style. Right, just kidding.

 

_____________________________

Honestly though, Hadi, I would never have answered you, honest. I would have been struck dumb by the awesome power and sheer pig-headed single-mindedness of your mind-set and said to myself..

'behold, a fool who knows he is a fool is a wise man at least in this, but the fool who thinks he is a wise man is a fool indeed'.

 

And I would have gone elsewhere, and written elsewhere, and left you to rot in a heaven of your own making.

 

 

 

But Master Bacarra and Electric Ink have actually answered you point by point, using intellect (which you simply replace with blind faith). I admire, sincerely admire you both, Master Bacarra and Electriic Ink. Sincerely. You are both patient and highly intelligent.

 

Note that I mean no offense to those like Watermonkey and others here who have an INTELLIGENT, THINKING belief in god. Actually, I found Watermonkey's post VERY interesting, even fascinating, but then most of his posts are that way. But blind faith and domineering beliefs - 'I am right and you are wrong, because so it is written'.. oh, spare me, please. I can understand belief in almost anything, but I detest the fanatic.

 

Notice from truefusion:

No need to call others names. Ever heard of, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all"?

Edited February 19, 2007 by truefusion (see edit history)

[master_bacarra 0]

What are the better options?

that is the question. for i can go beyond what catholicism or christianity says, that i am not bounded and limited.

They're labeled that for a reason. It's an easy access to wisdom. If you know about it beforehand, there's a higher chance of avoiding it.

ah yes. the infamous "for a reason". so anything labeled ugly i can avoid, yet there is a limitation to that. it's like the cliche "judging the book by its cover".

In the Qur'an, it says that God turned all angels who disobeyed Him into disturbing, ugly-looking beings.

you actually didn't read the part where the phrase was taken. the CREEPY and UGLY was the beings Hadi was referring to the creatures that go to you at your grave... or at least that's what he's trying to say.

[1]Could you do me a favor? Tonight when you go to sleep, make yourself dream about flying in the clouds, while burgers with wings accompany you, and have them say, "Welcome to Burger Heaven. May i take your order?" Oh, and feel free to add anything you'd like to the aforementioned story.

sure no problem. if you say so.

[2]You're right, it is what i believe in. But even i provided some proof on why i believe it. Why do you believe it's not a gift from God? Surely, it can't be because my statement is illogical.

i believe it's not a gift from god because, as i've said we ourselves acquire the knowledge to allow us to understand what these dreams mean. it doesn't just happen in a snap.

But, for the sake of conversation, allow me to give a possible dream and you interpret it. Let's say a metal ball is rolling around the earth. It rolls into the sea, and it rusts. It comes out of the water and unto some rocky ground. The rocky ground scratches the metal ball up a lot. It rolls off a cliff and gets dented. Then a bright ray of light shines on it, and that light heals the ball completely (no rust, scratches or dents) and gets lifted and placed upon a bed of flowers. End of dream.
If you're willing, please, interpret the dream.

a ball symbolizes completeness or wholeness of a person. if we follow the events using the analogy of the ball, the outside forces damages the "wholeness" of the ball and in the end the light shines on it and restores its "wholeness". the outside forces can be represented by challenges in life. the light could represent clarity of mind, or acquiring greater understanding of things. the dreams simply states the analogy of life, of a person's life and struggles. of course the light in the end will be interpreted like you as "god healed the ball", but to me, it's like acquiring better understanding of what life is, that through hardships i would understand things better. it's not god who did it, but i myself found the answer to the question.

[4:1]I am sure. It makes us realize all other blessings. Was your suffering as bad as Job's? Did your suffering make your body reject food? Did your suffering get worse after waking up?

you don't even know the suffering yet you already compare it to someone else's. you use the "other people around the world could be suffering worse than what you've experienced" technique. you are quick to judge yet you have not know the real cause. it's as if you're saying "whatever it is, it's not as bad as this guys problem or that guy's problem".

[4:2]That's not true, for even i know the answer. If you had read the Bible you would realize why such things happen. You'd be surprised how many times it answers such a question.

again we come back to the idea that "god has all the answers". it all boils down to having the "best" option to everything else. Edited February 19, 2007 by master_bacarra (see edit history)

[truefusion 3]

that is the question. for i can go beyond what catholicism or christianity says, that i am not bounded and limited.

I was hoping you could answer my question since you're not limited (as you claim) like we are. Perhaps being not limited to something doesn't provide any other alternative, anyways?

 

ah yes. the infamous "for a reason". so anything labeled ugly i can avoid, yet there is a limitation to that. it's like the cliche "judging the book by its cover".

There's a good chance that you were thinking, "'Cause God said so," which to you is no reason at all. But it's more than that: they all include more than one reason. This is where understanding kicks in.

 

you actually didn't read the part where the phrase was taken. the CREEPY and UGLY was the beings Hadi was referring to the creatures that go to you at your grave... or at least that's what he's trying to say.

Meh, i took a crack at it. I myself have never heard of anything of the sort.

 

sure no problem. if you say so.

! What can i say to this? It's like saying, "I'm eating an apple right now."

 

But you must've been talking about lucid dreaming. But even then one has already started dreaming. They didn't tell themselves what to dream. And i tell you, i'm sure i would never be able to come up with some of the things i've dreamed about?it's just too weird.

 

i believe it's not a gift from god because, as i've said we ourselves acquire the knowledge to allow us to understand what these dreams mean. it doesn't just happen in a snap.

Have you ever heard the statement: "God uses life to teach people"?

 

a ball symbolizes completeness or wholeness of a person. if we follow the events using the analogy of the ball, the outside forces damages the "wholeness" of the ball and in the end the light shines on it and restores its "wholeness". the outside forces can be represented by challenges in life. the light could represent clarity of mind, or acquiring greater understanding of things. the dreams simply states the analogy of life, of a person's life and struggles. of course the light in the end will be interpreted like you as "god healed the ball", but to me, it's like acquiring better understanding of what life is, that through hardships i would understand things better. it's not god who did it, but i myself found the answer to the question.

Your explanation was quite similar to what i was going with, only, for me, the ball is a person. But, yeah, i couldn't come up with a hard one. I wanted to come up with one that is similar to like the ones you'd find in the Book of Daniel?but that's prophecy. Maybe when i can come up with one that matches up with prophecy i'll post it.

 

you don't even know the suffering yet you already compare it to someone else's. you use the "other people around the world could be suffering worse than what you've experienced" technique. you are quick to judge yet you have not know the real cause. it's as if you're saying "whatever it is, it's not as bad as this guys problem or that guy's problem".

You think i asked the questions for no reason? You believe they were actually rhetorical? Why didn't you answer my questions so that i may have a better understanding? If it's too personal, then say so, and leave it at that.

 

again we come back to the idea that "god has all the answers". it all boils down to having the "best" option to everything else.

You said God can't answer your question, and i said He can and has. You were basically, indirectly, asking, "Why does God allow suffering?" Can one properly answer a question about God without referring to Him? Perhaps you don't want the answer to your question.

[master_bacarra 0]

I was hoping you could answer my question since you're not limited (as you claim) like we are. Perhaps being not limited to something doesn't provide any other alternative, anyways?

indeed i have said that i am not limited to what other religion offers, but it doesn't mean i know lots of alternatives, better alternatives. i said it myself that i am in constant search.

 

There's a good chance that you were thinking, "'Cause God said so," which to you is no reason at all. But it's more than that: they all include more than one reason. This is where understanding kicks in.

because saying "cause god says so" doesn't sound like an answer to me at all. it's like i'm forced to accept things as they are. to me it's not good enough. it's like in the end i'm still hanging with my questions unanswered.

 

But you must've been talking about lucid dreaming. But even then one has already started dreaming. They didn't tell themselves what to dream. And i tell you, i'm sure i would never be able to come up with some of the things i've dreamed about—it's just too weird.

maybe so.

 

You think i asked the questions for no reason? You believe they were actually rhetorical? Why didn't you answer my questions so that i may have a better understanding? If it's too personal, then say so, and leave it at that.

yes it is too personal. i don't even disclose it to my family, let alone to friends, or strangers.

 

You said God can't answer your question, and i said He can and has. You were basically, indirectly, asking, "Why does God allow suffering?" Can one properly answer a question about God without referring to Him? Perhaps you don't want the answer to your question.

like what i've said above, i don't think the answers aren't good enough. it's not something i should just brush off my shoulder and forget about it like nothing happened. that's why my tone always have this "is that the best answer you've got?" vibe to it. Edited February 19, 2007 by master_bacarra (see edit history)

[TypoMage 0]

Wow this is one huge Topic that has to due with a huge thing. Ok so lets say God does exist, where is he? Why does he not show himself!This is just one of the reasons why I do not believe in God!