What If Something Does Escape A Blackhole? It aint easy but it might be possible that...

[salamangkero 0]

I'm sure lots of you people have read or strayed into posts talking much about warp drive, antimatter engines, blackholes, portals to alternate worlds or dimensions, wormholes and other such stuff at the mere mention of outer space, cosmos or the Big Bang. If it is of any comfort to you, I am also aware that I'm also contributing to the amount of the aforementioned stuff. This is just my idea on the nature of blackholes; I have also included the premises behind this conclusion of mine, of course.

 

The birth of a Star

Stars are born from gas clouds in space, comprised mainly of hydrogen and helium, the two most primitive elements in the cosmos. It all begins with a small, feeble force called gravity. Every now and then, particles will clump together under the attraction of their own gravity or pushed together by a nearby explosion, perhaps from a nearby star. Each of these clumps is a seed of a new star.

 

Gradually, these "seeds" will, themselves, pull together and begin to spin around each other. Eventually, an accretion disk will form around the small mass protostar. As it shrinks, its gravitational pull strengthens and its temperature rises. Intense pressure, however, will "push" matter away from the star. This is most possible only through the two flattened poles. Radiation, gas and dust are swept away in the twin outflow jets perpendicular to the accretion disk.

 

If the star is less than a tenth of the size of the sun, there may not be enough matter left for the star to sustain fusion and it stays a small brown protostar. However, if fusion has successfully started, the protostar begins to shine and a new star is born. From the remnants in the accretion disk form protoplanets, each, in turn, the seed of a new planet. These may form into new planets or just remain as space debris.

 

A Warm Heart

At the heart of a star is a dense core of hydrogen and helium nuclei. Extremely high temperatures have stripped these atoms of their electrons so the core of a star is basically a sea of protons and neutrons.

 

A star's "shine" is powered by a process called fusion. This happens when protons or hydrogen isotopes collide with each other. For example, fusion in the sun's core goes a little something like this:

1. Two protons collide. One of them decays into a neutron, releasing a positron (the positive charge has to go somewhere) and a neutrino, leaving an isotope of hydrogen, deuterium.

2. Another proton collides with deuterium, but does not decay into a neutron. A Helium 3 nucleus is formed and energy is given off as a photon.

3. Two Helium 3 nuclei collide, creating a stable Helium 4 nucleus, the alpha particle, as we know it. This fires off two protons back into the "sea".

 

The Death of a Giant

Blue giants often squander their fuel within a matter of a few million years. This means that, nearing the end of its life, a blue giant's core runs out of protons to sustain "normal" fusion. This is when all the accumulated helium nuclei, out of pressure and temperature, begins to be forcibly fused together into heavier elements. (Note: The heaviest element a star can make in its lifetime is iron) This, however, is a much more rapid process that doesn't add significantly much to a blue giant's lifetime. As heavier elements are created around the helium burning core, the outer layers of the star swell, creating a supergiant.

 

In this phase, the pressure inside is so great that electrons and protons fuse together to form neutrons. The star then suddenly collapses into a supernova explosion, contracting then exploding, releasing in a matter of hours as much energy as all the stars in the galaxy put together... Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration; suffice to say it releases much energy. (Note: This explosion is the only time that elements heavier than iron, such as gold and uranium, are formed within the star. These pieces of matter are blown off the star, to be later incorporated into new stars or planets elsewhere in the universe)

 

The outcome of the explosion can be varied, however. If the explosion successfully throws off much matter from the star, all that is left is a neutron star, which is actually the ball of spinning neutrons left over from the proton-electron fusion. If the star remains dense, however, collapse continues and what was once a blue giant ends up either a pulsar or a blackhole.

 

Eternal Darkness

A blackhole is matter squeezed so powerfully dense that its gravity becomes irresistible, even to radiation. Light, itself, cannot escape, which is why it was called a black hole. They cannot be directly observed, which hardly comes as a surprise, however, their effect on nearby matter can be detected. Astrophysicists are confident that blackholes do exist.

 

A common theory about the origins of a blackhole is that it is the final stage of a really massive supernova. The core becomes so dense that it continues collapsing upon itself, becoming denser and denser as time goes by. As a result, its gravity pulls in more surrounding matter and so the vicious cycle continues.

 

Blackholes are also being associated, not only with the death of stars, but also with the existence of quasars, or Quasi-Stellar Radio Sources. These are probably the most intense energy sources in the universe, bright as hundreds of galaxies yet no larger than a stellar system (e.g. our own Solar system) Though these are billions of light years away, these emit radio signals that are quite easy to pick up.

 

Some scientists hypothesize that a quasar is the dying light of a star that has been unfortunate enough to be pulled into a blackhole. As matter is shredded about its vortex, the swirling gas and dust heated up and glowed more and more brightly. Just before it is sucked irretrievably past the Schwarzchild radius (the point of no return, actually a sphere, more or less), it emits massive flashes of X-rays, gamma and UV radiation. A quasar is thought to be this final burst.

 

Lifting the Fog

Finally, my conclusion. It seems to me like blackholes are more like "stars" despite the fact that it doesn't shine much. They have, however, been known to emit intense streams of radio waves. These radio waves may, for all we know, be very much like the twin outflow jets sweeping matter from a warming protostar.

 

Allow me to clarify my point, that is, assuming blackholes do rotate about an axis. Let's begin with a living blue giant. It may have a massive gravitational field but I do hypothesize that matter is more easily swayed to this pull than EM radiation. Proof of this is the fact that the star still shines. Also, it has been established that, by observations during solar eclipses, the light rays of nearby stars passing close to the sun are simply bent, whereas an object traveling the same trajectory will, theoretically, fall into the sun.

 

Let's skip forward to the dying blue giant. I will not elaborate once more on its death or on how it died; I know death is usually a very sad affair involving five stages of grief. By now, let's say the star is very massive that even after the supernova explosion, there is still enough matter dense enough to continue the collapse. Imagining that it does become a blackhole, it begins pulling nearby matter, which probably swirls about it in an accretion disk.

 

That is the key, however. Like a protostar warming up, a blackhole also has this "push" called pressure, compelling matter and radiation outwards. Like a protostar, the "pull" is much weaker at the flattened poles, where stuff can easily escape. However, since the gravitational pull of an aged blackhole is far greater than a young protostar, probably the only stuff that can actually escape is EM radiation.

 

What about quasars? I think that it is also a blackhole with a massive accretion disk. White-hot matter swirling around at high speeds get to emit EM waves far before they plunge into oblivion. These quasars and blackholes originally get to emit gamma, x-ray and UV waves but possibly due to the red shift, they reach us as radio waves (Whew! That was quite a shift!), which are, nonetheless, still pretty strong, considering the distance it has traveled

 

So there you have it, guys (and gals, for the more genteel of you folks) That's my own two cents on the matter of blackholes. Yes, I did do a fairly good amount of research (No, not online) and put two and two together to coe up with what must be roughly four or something. I did find it disturbing to consider the possibility that a blackhole's pull is not so irresistible after all.

 

Yes, I am also aware that blackholes are not rifts in spacetime, just depressions. They are also not gateways or portals to another place, world or dimension, thank you. Someone once told me that blackholes do not exist; it turns out we had different blackholes in mind

[Saint_Michael 3]

That would be the ultimate question if something could escape or actually whats on the other side of a black hole. But since light cannot escape from a black hole I doubt anything else can.

Blue giants often squander their fuel within a matter of a few million years. This means that, nearing the end of its life, a blue giant's core runs out of protons to sustain "normal" fusion. This is when all the accumulated helium nuclei, out of pressure and temperature, begins to be forcibly fused together into heavier elements. (Note: The heaviest element a star can make in its lifetime is iron) This, however, is a much more rapid process that doesn't add significantly much to a blue giant's lifetime. As heavier elements are created around the helium burning core, the outer layers of the star swell, creating a supergiant.
In this phase, the pressure inside is so great that electrons and protons fuse together to form neutrons. The star then suddenly collapses into a supernova explosion, contracting then exploding, releasing in a matter of hours as much energy as all the stars in the galaxy put together... Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration; suffice to say it releases much energy. (Note: This explosion is the only time that elements heavier than iron, such as gold and uranium, are formed within the star. These pieces of matter are blown off the star, to be later incorporated into new stars or planets elsewhere in the universe)

The outcome of the explosion can be varied, however. If the explosion successfully throws off much matter from the star, all that is left is a neutron star, which is actually the ball of spinning neutrons left over from the proton-electron fusion. If the star remains dense, however, collapse continues and what was once a blue giant ends up either a pulsar or a blackhole.

I suggest you do some more research, because holes do exsist and they can be spot easily with infrared telescopes. Although you can't spot them with a naked eye if you pay attention to the stars and their rotation you can spot at least in the vicinity where that black hole is. On top of that, the death of a star can be die in 3 ways. First the neutron (brown) star, which is basically a floating dead orb. Next one the star goes supernova and blows up and you can see stuff like the Horse head nebula in Orion. the 3rd which is basically a black hole which implodes on itself and thus create a pocket of death to anything that it finds. Funny thing about it, once a black hole forms it does become larger almost like a hurricane.

Although I haven't come across it, but it is possible that earth could be swallowed by a black hole as well. Our sun could be a candidate for one of those three if earth doesn't blow up itself the blast from the sun will finish it off. A stars life is usually ends about 20 billions years, If I remember correctly and our sun is over 13 billions years old maybe more who knows. I don't remember if it will hit mars or not. But Jupiter beyond will be a lot colder then they are now.

Hopefully this helps explain some of the better understandings of the universe.

[owbussey 0]

I just wanted to comment about a few things you said about black holes. I don't mean to correct you or anything but there are different classifications for blackholes. I thought you needed a little bit more detail about what scientists think about the actual structure of the blackholes. The general term for what you called the "Schwarzchild radius" or the boundary of a blackhole at which point nothing can escape is called an event horizon. That is used for all kinds of blackholes.karl Schwarzchild was a German astronomer who was one of the first people to observe a blackhole. A Schwarzschild blackhole which is a non-rotating blackhole was named after this scientist. The shape of this blackhole is thought to be similar to a traffic cone with the flat base cut off. So the shape is large at the top and comes to a point near its bottom. This point is called the singularity at which all the laws of physics do not exist. This is where all the matter is supposedly crushed into a dense sphere of matter.Another type of blackhole is a Kerr blackhole. There are theories that these holes are the ones that can transport objects through time and to different worlds. What scientists think is that you can pass through them and out the other "unseen" side which is called a whitehole. This is named because everything about this side fo the black hole is opposite. This is pretty far fetched but it is thought that the gravitational force uses some sort of unknown matter with a negative energy to push everything away from it. Some think that this energy is the "black matter" which has been observed in space. this matter blends into the black abyss of space but with contrasting light signals scientist can see these small chunks of matter. Of course there are no laws of physics supporting this now. other scientists counter that anything attempting to enter a blackhole would be destroyed before it even reached the singularity point.The scientists who counter the blackhole time travel theory provide a different theory for time travel- yes they still think it is possible. These tunnel-like structures or wormholes have not been proven to exist. Wormholes are also called Einstein-Rosen Bridges which would allow people to travel through time and like on all of those TV shows on the SCI-FI channel you could use them as gateways to travel multiple light-years in a fraction of the time. These structures are based on Einstein's theory of relativity which I think was called in question recently as being incorrect but that is something I am not familiar in. Anyway the theory of relativity can be used to say that any mass can curve the space-time continuum. To explain the curvature think if you take a rubber band and stretch it out. That is how the curve looks looking at it from the side. This is supposedly how the universe is shaped. For the tops think of a thick rubber band. Anything on top can curve the tops of the rubber band like a bowling ball on a water bed. Since the universe supposedly has ends that curve around, objects can fall through the universe at these points. These are the actual worm holes. I forgot to mention the different parts of the "rubber band" model of the universe. The actual rubber band surface is considered conventional space that we see using s telescope. The space in between your two fingers that you use to stretch the rubber band is called hyperspace.there is no theory about how the worm holes form except for two different masses on either side of the rubber band gradually bringing the sides of the rubber band closer together to form a hole. A bunch of things come together for time travel like the twin paradox and other theories with worm holes but I have not studied those yet. One theory of time travel i have covered has nothing to do with blackholes because this is a more recent theory (1991) and there is not much evidence for surviving a black hole. Dr. Gott at Princeton university says that time travel can be obtained using cosmic strings. These are string-like objects that were formed at the beginning of the universe and are used today to support the shape of the universe. These strings which could only be an atom in diameter form a structural matrix much like our skeletal system supporting the shape of our body. Because they support the entire universe, they are under a lot of pressure and would have a lot of gravitational pull on cosmic objects near them. You travel through time by pulling two strings together or near a blackhole. This would distort the space time continuum enough to create a small hole. The strings themselves would provide an incredible source of speed due to their gravitational energy which is speculated to be constant along its whole length.Ok i gave you about a weeks worth of info from my theoretical physics class. I just wanted to offer more information about theoretical info about blackholes

Edited December 1, 2006 by owbussey (see edit history)

[Saint_Michael 3]

Yeah but wormholes are complete different scale of science though, true they don't exist, if they did, they would be beyond what man can see with a telescope or satellite.Of course I somewhat agree with what your saying that who knows whats on the other side of a black hole. For all we know it could be a fabled 4th dimension and that are Universe could be flipped around like a bizzaro world.

[salamangkero 0]

Gawd, I should have seen this coming...

 

I suggest you do some more research, because holes do exsist and they can be spot easily with infrared telescopes. Although you can't spot them with a naked eye if you pay attention to the stars and their rotation you can spot at least in the vicinity where that black hole is.

I did not dispute that at all. They are "spotted" more easily with radio telescopes, though. Also, we do not directly spot blackholes; we calculate the probability of their existence in a given area

 

They cannot be directly observed, which hardly comes as a surprise, however, their effect on nearby matter can be detected. Astrophysicists are confident that blackholes do exist.

See what I mean?

 

On top of that, the death of a star can be die in 3 ways. First the neutron (brown) star, which is basically a floating dead orb. Next one the star goes supernova and blows up and you can see stuff like the Horse head nebula in Orion. the 3rd which is basically a black hole which implodes on itself and thus create a pocket of death to anything that it finds.

Neutron stars are not brown, it's the protostars that are. Also, the supernova explosion is not an ending; it is the climax. A blue giant has no choice but to undergo a supernova explosion, no matter what it ends up as.

 

Planetary nebulae, like the Horse Head or Crab nebulae are formed after the explosion of stars, not just blue giants. (Even medium-sized yellow stars can make those lovely and colorful gas clouds) They form after a star's death, assuming it did not turn into a blackhole. Deep within them is a neutron star, if the particles have not scattered already, or a pulsar.

 

Although I haven't come across it, but it is possible that earth could be swallowed by a black hole as well.

True, true, but it is a very distant possibility.

 

Our sun could be a candidate for one of those three if earth doesn't blow up itself the blast from the sun will finish it off.

No, at the moment, the sun has not enough mass to turn into a blackhole. Yes, I do agree the earth, well, humans, could blow the planet up. I also agree that our planet could be swallowed by a blackhole, but I doubt it'd be created by the sun itself.

 

I probably should have detailed this too in the original post but I didn't deem it relevant at the time. It does seem to be needed now, though

 

The Death of a Non-Celebrity

Medium sized stars, like the sun, pretty much follow the same death cycle as their more voluminous and massive siblings, the blue giants. First, the outer layers begin to swell as the core begins feeding on helium nuclei, turning the star into a red supergiant. However, instead of one big and massive explosion, the star gradually sheds of large parts of its outer layers, called planetary nebulae. These shells are gently blown away from the star and shredded back into gas, dust and "bite-sized" chunks as it travels through space. Lastly, when much of the star's matter has left, the star, a fading white dwarf, begins to cool down.

 

Now you guys see how nebulae form.

 

Someone once told me that blackholes do not exist; it turns out we had different blackholes in mind

This is probably exactly what I meant when I said I should have seen this coming. When I said blackhole I meant the Swarzchild blackhole (Thanks, owbussey), not Kerr blackholes, Einstein-Rosen bridges, portals, wormholes or any other of those stuff overused in cheesy science fiction.

 

That would be the ultimate question if something could escape or actually whats on the other side of a black hole. But since light cannot escape from a black hole I doubt anything else can.

I know that nothing is supposed to escape from a blackhole, not even light. However, it might be possible, for EM radiation (which is basically gamma, X-ray, UV, light, infrared, microwave, radio and ELF waves) to escape from the blackhole's "poles". If you wonder how, you probably have not read the part detailing how stars are born or the part about quasars.

 

Oookay, so maybe the original post was already too long >_<

Edited December 2, 2006 by salamangkero (see edit history)

[kawasu 0]

you're all NERDS.

Notice from Saint-Michael:

and that is off topic spam, warning issue.

[Saint_Michael 3]

OH!! completely forgot about protostars .But correct me if I am wrong on this but a blue star is the older version (final stage) of all the stars. So regardless of what size the star is in it's early life it could turn into a blue giant. I would think a small portion of the em radiation would escape from a black hole's outer shell (near the edges). Or the small portion could escape while it is being pulled in by earlier solar energy or gravity from another object. Oh I agree totally that the odds are that our own sun would go black hole. How ever a supernova could do the same damage regardless of how big the star was when it blew up. Also it is true with some simple (NASA) math we can figure where it could be. However their are some rare cases people can spot a possible black hole just by looking at the rotation of the objects around it. I forgot to mention that the only reason why we could spot black holes with high tech scopes is that the pressure and the heat the black hole is sucking in from all the other stuff around that black hole. Although I can't remember were I read it but I do believe scientist's have yet to figure out why black holes expand (although very slowly) or they know why a black hole expands.

[salamangkero 0]

you're all NERDS.

Is that jealousy or envy disguised as derision? Just wondering...

But correct me if I am wrong on this but a blue star is the older version (final stage) of all the stars.

I'm not really sure but much of the books I've read have the following stars in different lifetimes:
1. Brown protostar (all stars begin this way) -> Red dwarf -> white dwarf -> black dwarf (just a cold lump)
2. Brown protostar -> Yellow dwarf -> red giant -> white dwarf -> black dwarf
3. Brown protostar -> Blue giant -> red supergiant -> neutron star, pulsar or blackhole

Although I'd also admit that I could very well be wrong but at the moment, I am positive that blue giants are, well, stars still in their prime, not the aging state of all stars.

Although I can't remember were I read it but I do believe scientist's have yet to figure out why black holes expand (although very slowly) or they know why a black hole expands.

I'm not sure about expansion but I'm sure blackholes do get denser as they accumulate more mass. I also find it disturbing that if absolutely nothing escapes a blackhole, from its edges, poles or wherever (not even radiation) then we're absolutely gone. I mean, the universe will eventually stop expanding and contract.

I wonder what happens when two blackholes "pull" on each other... Will they merge or will they tear at each other's throats?

[Saint_Michael 3]

you are correct the more the black hole eats the bigger it gets. I do believe that the larger of the two black holes would eat the other. I do believe that scientists did discover two black holes next to each other I would have to look that up to find out. Or some quad star formation around a black hole.

Did some website searching Found out that depending on how hot the star gets determines it's color so a blue giant is nothing more then a very hot star. But found a better break down of what you posted in your last post

Sun-like Stars (Mass under 1.5 times the mass of the Sun) --> Red Giant --> Planetary Nebula -->White Dwarf --> Black Dwarf
Huge Stars (Mass between 1.5 to 3 times the mass of the Sun) --> Red SuperGiant --> Supernova --> Neutron Star
Giant Stars (Mass over 3 times the mass of the Sun) --> Red SuperGiant --> Supernova --> Black Hole


But finding this from another site I found it interesting

Sometimes the core survives the explosion. If the surviving core is between 1.5 - 3 solar masses it contracts to become a a tiny, very dense Neutron Star. If the core is much greater than 3 solar masses, the core contracts to become a Black Hole.

So in reality it all depends on how big (mass) the star gets by the time it's ready to explode. Of course do they factor in the surrounding area when the star explode? I know that the size of the star determines what happens to it but what about the stuff around.

This is a scary thought

http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/

Imagine that black holes could travel just a bit a fast like that.

[quakesand 0]

Hey thanks, now I'm sure that how stars work and them explode and how others work.
You gave me a good idea for my game...I love the eternal darkness part,
it explained why is blackhole...-black
gonna bookmark this page
EDIT:

you're all NERDS.

Notice from Saint-Michael:

and that is off topic spam, warning issue.

If you don't like this topic, don't post.
Edited December 5, 2006 by quakesand (see edit history)

[Kubi 0]

Interesting topic here.

 

Unfortunely I don't know much about blackholes. But I do know...that if you did escape from one you might end up looking like this;

 

 

Oh...dang, that's our president. Wrong picture.

 

I meant this one;

 

Sorry if I couldn't contribute something more...educated. :]. But that second image took me 5 whole minutes to make.

 

BTW, he's supposed to be "blurred", or "rippled". haha?

 

Notice from saint-michael:

Kubi this is completely off topic and is in no way related to what this topic is about You know better then that..

[salamangkero 0]

Ahahaha! That was real funny! I mean, the first picture was.

 

I think anyone falling into a black hole would even be lucky to look like the second pic. As far as I can imagine, we'd probably look like this:

 

.

Again, that, too, is assuming we are lucky b@$+@rd$ and didn't get to shrink too much

[Kubi 0]

I was going to say.."Where's the picture at". Then I found it. Ya, I found out today that it compresses you, heh. Whoops.

[tractor 0]

Well the thought of a UFO or another life form coming though a black hole is a low posibility.If it did we would confirm another life form somwhere is space. We would try to contact it if it even spoke english or another language on earth. We might get the army to make it a landy spot and suround it untill we could talk. We would ask where it was from and what it was doing. We might have to look at the ship and see what we did that we didn't think of. Or what we could have done for planes.We might even keep them as guests and do some other things with them. The thought of them coming might be frightning to many people as they don't like FORBIDEN GUESTS. What would there ship look like? Would it be what we see in the movies? A big block? A disc? What would we do? And would we go back to there world? How did they get though the black hole anyway. It is unpassable.

[salamangkero 0]

Wow. It's been more than a year since I last posted on this thread... and it surprises me that a lot of posts are extremely off-topic.

 

Okay, let's review:

1. This thread is about blackholes. Swarzchild blackholes, to be more specific, that is, an absolutely dense celestial body. Not rifts in space-time, wormholes, Einstein-Rosen bridges, portals, gateways to another dimensions or any of such stuff. Simply put, an amazingly small yet heavy object.

2. I am perfectly aware that nothing is supposed to escape a black hole. I mean, holy $#!+ even d@mn light cannot escape, ya, ya, ya! And I ask, is that sufficient proof that there is no escaping a blackhole?

3. I am merely pondering that maybe, just maybe, there is a possibility that something that has entered a blackhole will be expelled from it, albeit torn and tattered into sub-atomic particles. I do not dispute that no object can escape a blackhole unmodified.

 

Now, some new insights.

 

I have a friend who once told me that it is impossible to actually reach (make contact with) a blackhole. While in the accretion disk, matter accelerates towards the center but never actually reaches it. The explanation is, supposedly, one of Einstein's equations regarding time dilation. The closer an object gets to the speed of light, the slower time goes for it. I gathered that he is of the opinion that the nearer an object is to a black hole, the faster it goes yet, as a side effect, the slower its descent. She also hypothesized that, when the object in question finally reaches the speed of light, it will stand stock-still, at least, relative to the blackhole.

 

I'm a bit sleepy now, though so I haven't put much thought into it. When I wake up tomorrow, I'll think about it some more and, hopefully, either understand or debunk my friend's theory.

 

Anyway, I still think it is possible for particles to escape a blackhole with the following assumptions:

1. It is a blackhole, not a gateway or rift or... y'know what, you should know what I mean by now

2. It is rotating about some axis

3. Its accretion disk is also rotating in the same direction around the same axis.

 

So... after a year and two months, what do you guys think?