War Is Over! ... if John and Yoko had their way ...

[Brian Gillingham 0]

I keep hearing John Lenon's voice and guitar in my head. Could we all just start spreading this around? "WAR IS OVER!" Just send an e-mail with these three lines. WAR IS OVER! If you want it PS: spread the wordI can't imagine that we are accomplishing anything by killing each other. This whole campaign in Iraq is now sold to us under the "spreading democracy" moniker. The truth is that we are on a conquest. There is no trust anymore. It seems this way, anyhow. I think that the force-fed "fear the terrorists" messages have caused us to have less trust in our neighbors. We all need to get along - and trust one another. We all need to make friends out of those who would harm us - rather than point the finger and say things like "islamic fundamentalist all want to kill us". This just isn't true. They really want for us to get out of their land - really. Read what Bin Laden or his #2 (Al Z. - forgot his name) said many times. They don't want Zionist anywhere near their sacred land. So, we should just respect this - and the problem would be SOLVED.Who cares what they believe. The key is that they believe something - it doesn't mean that they are right. You possibly believe some strange things about your religion (nothing specific implied) - at least to an outsider, it may be really strange. The point is that it is only a belief.Why can't we just mind our own business? I really think that it all boils down to this. If we could all learn to mind our own business, and have some of the trust mentioned earlier, "...and the world will live as one"

[serverph 0]

i dunno... mind our own business? and yet still trust others? minding one's own business is trusting oneself alone. i dont believe it would presuppose trust on others. it is like saying, that every man is an island (although, it has its certain appeal). or would you rather have, no man is an island -- where everybody else is anybody's business and has a need to depend on others, which would require trust? also, there is a universe of difference between belief and action. it is one thing to believe, and another thing to act on that belief. like the belief that a "zionist should never be near their sacred land", and acting on "eliminating/removing that zionist, by any means necessary, no matter where they are, near (their sacred land) or far (even as far as the USA, remember 9/11?)".war can only be over, in human history, when we are all dead. but then, what's the point of having "...the world ...live as one" when we're ALL already dead? i don't suppose hailing "HUMANS are dead, LONG LIVE the HUMANS!" would also ring true in this case. :lol:i'm playing with words here, okay? (just being philosophical )

[Brian Gillingham 0]

...belief that a "zionist should never be near their sacred land", and acting on "eliminating/removing that zionist, by any means necessary, no matter where they are, near (their sacred land) or far (even as far as the USA, remember 9/11?)".

I am pretty sure that by what you said, you haven't read the whole texts of any of Bin Laden's rants. You know that we only were fed a small portion on the news... the specific complaining about America" was left out for the most part. Read his rants if you want:
http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/

It is a really sad read. If you didn't look at Bin Laden's picture - or read that it was his statements, you might imagine that it is a simple arab living in a repressed land - with many complaints about America.

I think that what you say here just demonstrates what I say about the trust. By how you bring up 9/11, you are playing into Bush's plan. We were supposed to reach out and be diplomatic.

Anyway, I want a debate about ths -- We should end this war now. There should be an investigation into the actions of the executive branch of our government. We should all hold them responsible -- after all, they work for us - we are HIS boss.

PS: I do like your humor with the "Long Live the Humans!" It reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode for some reason "How To Serve Humans".
Edited April 19, 2006 by Brian Gillingham (see edit history)

[serverph 0]

i'm surprised you singled out and just commented on that particular phrase of mine regarding "BELIEF vs. ACTION". but how about the other questions i posed? does it not bear answering, or are answers for them too hard to come by?as for bin laden, that is his take on things. and i don't suppose i need to read every bit and parcel of whole texts of bin laden's rants. the gist of it all -- which i know all the time without reading his rants (which you claim to be "left out for the most part") -- is his infinite dislike and complaint about america because he feels oppressed along with "his people". but didn't you care to consider that even from "his people", not everyone agrees and subscribes to his "belief"? whatever happened to your conviction of having everyone "minding one's own business"? shouldn't it apply to bin laden as well as for everyone? or maybe my definition of "minding one's own business" does not agree with your definition. would you care to elaborate on that? ;)i don't see what my reference to 9/11 has anything to do with trust. how? i'm simply pointing out the difference (and dangers) of belief and action by way of an example based on facts. and i have no love for bush either, or his convictions. i'm not even an american. falling into bush's plan? buh, humbug! i have another idea to broach: GUILTY vs INNOCENT. and in correlation, COLLECTIVE guilt/innocence and INDIVIDUAL guilt/innocence. would you still care to "reach out and be diplomatic" when the innocents (individuals) perish? or you would have no qualms about their (and can extend to yours) death since a nation and its people bears (collective) guilt? another question: can you (or anyone else) talk to bin laden to "reach out and be diplomatic" as well -- for the sake of the innocents (collective and individual)? here's where your notion of trust should come in, since it is a natural course of matters to have trust on this form of action. but not one-sided only... but a two-way thing. do you agree?i do agree with your general terms of the end of war though, and holding those responsible accountable. but i'm afraid war, as i've said earlier, is only voidable in the total absence of humanity.

[Brian Gillingham 0]

Decide for yourself, read Bin Ladens words: http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/

I refuse to simply give up on us. We have more power than we think. It show no hope to simply resign to the thought that the ONLY way to get rid of war would be after we've gone.

I have had a very tough time with "absolutes" - like never, always, etc. I have seen that there are many exceptions to the seemingly "perfect rule". So, I bring this full-circle back to John Lenon, and simply say "you may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I could just keep quoting various John Lenon songs

The fact that you bring up 9/11 means that you only sympathize with USA. You really don't care what goes on in arab countries. There are many things worse than 9/11.... to name a few: Drunk driving (kills more than 50,000 per year - compared to a one-time 3,000+), cigarettes, pollution, severe weather (it's getting worse every year).

I don't mean to get away from your point - I accept that trust is a major problem. What would help this trust? Certainly dropping nukes on Iran wouldn't help this trust -- it would damage it permanently, right? If we reach out and prove that we aren't on a conquest (anymore at least), and finally bring something positive to their land.

We know how is guilty of attacking us on 9/11. Knowing this doesn't resolve anything. My contention is that the USA govermnet is guilty of much worse offenses. We bully other countries in order to get what we want. The fact that we spend more on defense than the next 11 countries combined is outrageous -- not with my tax dollars! (well, I actually just paid my taxes - and they are going to forward a percentage of that money to Haliburton).

The things that we have done - are much worse. In an attempt to start the Iraq war with more international support, Bush wanted to paint a B-52 with UN colors to draw fire from Saddam.

We have lied to all of the American people about EVERYTHING leading up to war with Iraq. Why did we go - had 5 different answers in the first 2 years (from "the reason that I keep saying that there is a connection between Saddam and Al Q is because there is a connection between Al Q and Saddam" to "spreading democracy" to "we have to fight them over there, so we don't have to fight them here"). What ever happened to Mission Accomplished (they initially denied that they made the "Mission Accomplished" banner for the aircraft carrier Bush landed on... they said that the crew put it together.... LIE!) We lied to the UN - knowing the truth on many points, yet we tried to scare everybody onto our side.

What we really need to do is prioritize.

I am glad that you are not American. I think that I may move to Canada one day - and die of old age (rather than toxins in the air/water).

[serverph 0]

i admire your tenacity in taking bin laden's words hook, line and sinker... seemingly like some absolute truth to behold and accept without question... like something to be taken in good faith (which would be too taxing to my "trust reserves" anyway). don't worry, i did read that one the first time you made the text available. however, it does not add anything to which i DID know already -- long beforehand you gave the link.

 

but i admire more your willingness to hold on... to dream. too bad, we all need to wake up to the realities of life at some point. i won't hold it against you, if you continue dreaming though. and for sure, that dream will turn into reality someday, and there will be an end to this war as you are saying. but it will only be temporary. there will be other problems which will lead to war that will arise (just hopefully not in our lifetime anymore). just don't keep your hopes too high that all of life's travails will be over with its end.

 

i would just like to straighten out facts on my view of 9/11. i wholly sympathize with the family and relatives of those whose innocent lives were lost that fateful day. not only americans were killed by terrorists there, i would just like to point that out -- so it's not exact to say that my sympathy is with the USA alone. nevertheless, if ever it were the case that i sympathize with the USA, it does not necessarily mean that i don't care about what goes on in arab countries. if i would commit to your notion of "minding one's own business", perhaps i will have that kind of stance. but i don't. i sympathize with the arab people as well as with other non-arabs, as long as they are human beings experiencing same harrowing plights.

 

yes, statistics will prove that there are more things worse than 9/11 -- in terms of body count. however, the lives lost then were acts of deliberate and ruthless evil thought, perpetrated by madmen in my dictionary. it is not even remotely comparable to the examples you just gave.

 

i don't believe bin laden will ever extend a conciliatory hand. not in his lifetime. no amount of "reaching out" a diplomatic hand will sway him in his convictions that USA and allies are "evil". in the first place, he does not want any "meddling" from USA and allies, so finally bringing "something positive to their land" will be met with harsh opposition (as they do even today and of old). not unless "something positive" is something they can use to the detriment of their enemies.

 

throughout history, every government in the world has blood in its hands. no country is innocent, and we are all collectively guilty. even though it's primary duties are to preserve the status quo and promote national interests, these government people are still accountable to their people whom they represent. AND it is ONLY up to the PEOPLE who give them their powers to make them represent them well. it is the people's responsibility to actively pursue governance, and not just be bystanders waiting for the scenery to pass them by. at least that's how ideal i can be on my belief of PEOPLE POWER. as for the USA and IRAN nuke controversy, what can i say? these are all political maneuverings. nukes are leveraged to preserve a modicum of peace or to sow chaos in the world. like a double-edged sword. but until one is dropped on another nation, these are all posturings. we can only pass judgement once it is done and over with, as much as bin laden's and his ilks' ENDS justify their MEANS. it is a question of morality, which can only be answered when the "bridge is crossed".

 

good luck with canada. i wish you won't be disappointed there as well.

[homeloansnow 0]

How quickly we forget that bin Laden was trained by the USA? Put in place by the CIA. Funded by our tax dollars. That his family and the Bushes go waaaaaay back.If you want my opinion, bin Laden is a scapegoat. 9-11 was engineered by George W Bush. Did anyone REALLY pay attention to the news reports? Really WATCH the videos? Hear the firefighters and many eyewitnesses say they heard 'timed explosions' in the towers? Notice that the plane that hit the Pentagon, which had to be mere INCHES off the ground, didn't touch a single blade of grass? That same plane flew over cars at an altitude of less than fifty feet, yet the jetwash didn't blow cars off the road! Folks, there was no evidence of a plane hitting the Pentagon. There was no evidence of a plane crash in Pennsylvania.The so-called 'war on terror' is nothing more than a way to rally America behind a President who STOLE the White House. Americans rally behind a wartime President, especially when our own country is attacked. Look at Pearl Harbor. How quick did we get involved once they bombed it?The war is over - if we want it? Bullcookies! Most of us never wanted it in the first place!