The Ten Commandments Are they still valid today?

[wild20 0]

Hey you guys are taking off without me Okay. Check this out guys.Sandeep:First of all, I think you are biting off more then you can chew. Want a deeper hypothetical situation? What if you couldn't stand someone, so you went out and raped someone else. Now would that be okay? No. Let us say you were not happy, does it give you grounds to cheat? No. Relationships can ALWAYS be worked out. That is the beauty is God's love, and ours too for that matter. Remember that the Bible says that when we get married, we shall be joined in one flesh. Something that is suppose to be strong and last forever.Heavensounds:You are getting into to deep stuff Let me clarify this in my opinion. I think we need to look into the Bible for some answers. We will start with the story of Rahab. Remember she was the one that saved the spies of Joshua. She hid them and I am sure lied about their whereabouts too. Was it right? Let us look at the ten commandments. I believe it doesn't say don't lie, it says do not bear false witness. The same thing? Why yes, except for the usage. It says against your neighbor. Does this mean to your parents too? Who is your neighbor? This was a question that was asked by some people. I think everyone is you neighbor. What does this have to do with lying? You should not lie. To save someones life, I believe is more of a favor. But the Bible has some answers. It says to obey authorities that are godly. Is the US government godly? Maybe not as much as they should be, but they give the freedom to worship God, which in part carries out His command to worship Him. What about hitler? He did not carry out God's command. This means that you should not have obeyed him. Killing however is something that is inexcusable. Only God gave permission to kill, and only He can. Lying is something atht is curcumstancsial depending on what it does. Saving someones life is imortant, if you said where they were, I beliueve you would have a part in their murder.

[morosophos 0]

The original matter of inquiry was what should serve as the basis of moral decision making, as I recall.

 

It seems everyone has diverged in various directions on trying to attack the central issue, and in doing so I've found several different methods for making moral choices.

The Ten Commandments

Conscience

Human nature

Personally, I don't think any one of these can be used on its own. Depending on your faith, you may need all of them and perhaps more not even mentioned on the list. These are only the ones I've seen mentioned in the discussion, but there are doubtlessly many more. What you need to make moral decisions is just that, what you need. Therefore, the basis of moral decision making is ultimately objective.

 

The Ten Commandments are a set of ten laws. These laws are intended to guide the character on a moral path to make the proper decisions, at least in light of the Ancient Hebrew tradition. However, these Ten Commandments have been assimilated into modern western society via Christianity and have provided the foundation for much of western culture. There are several problems with using the Ten Commandments as your sole guide to moral decision making; this does in no way mean that there are problems per se with the Ten Commandments themselves, but rather just in utilising them. One problem with using the Ten Commandments is that they're all stated in the negative... "Don't do this, don't do that, etc." What about sins of omission? Isn't it bad both to take food from a beggar and not to give food to him? Only one is specifically mentioned in the Ten Commandments?not stealing. Another shortcoming of using the Ten Commandments alone is the need for interpretation. Some situations are more clear than others when determining whether or not a certain course of action would violate a commandment. For instance, let's take the commandment "Do not kill." This has the obvious implication of "Do not murder in cold blood," but what about war? Does that qualify as killing? Many would answer "yes," and others "no."

 

The conscience is the mental force that can logic out right from wrong, help from harm. Without conscience, one has to rely on being told what to think about every situation in order to make a moral choice. Therefore, conscience is a necessary factor in every moral choice. A conscience, however, derives its decisions based on help and harm; the problem is, what determines help and harm? The answer could be the thing previously discussed?the Ten Commandments?or it could be...

 

Human nature. I refer to human nature as an internal, inveterate set of moral code in the human person. Some people may refer to this human nature as "common sense." For instance, someone argued that "Do not kill" is something written in human nature. To our culture, this is common sense, but what about the Ancient Mayan culture, where there were virgin sacrifices? In that culture, killing was perfectly acceptible. You may think this is against God, but as previously stated by someone else, you cannot be punished for something you have completely no knowledge about, specifically the Ten Commandments that state "Do not kill." So as far as the Mayans were concerned, "Do not kill" was not common sense, so human nature isn't really human, but strictly a social being; that is, it differs from society to society. Therefore human nature is only a decent basis of moral decision making as long as it's only used strictly within one culture (which is rarely the case in a globalised society like the modern western world).

 

So in my opinion, moral decision making typically requires some sort of concrete moral standard (such as the Ten Commandments) in addition to conscience and human nature.

[wild20 0]

Nice post Morosophes, but it really doesn't cut it. Are you even a Christian? Sure the Ten commandments are just a set of laws, but they are divine. You are basically calling God a liar by saying we don't need to obey Him. Read John 14:15.Omission? There is no problem with it. It doesn't really take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Besides, the Bible states to be kind to one another, if you have two of something, share one. If you can't do something, you can do the opposite. And I think we all know that. You are taking this to the extreme, something that is entirely not needed.If you go by human nature alone, you will fall and be lost. You can't serve two masters, just like you can't go your way and God's. You follow Him, (and his Commandments) or you don't and follow your own. You can use the two together, but your belief must never contradict God's Commandments. Adultery? Yeah sure go ahead, but you will be sinning according to the Ten commandments. Do you think it mentions adultery in the bible for nothing? I don't think so.

[truefusion 3]

I would like to add on to conscience. When we repent and accept the Holy Spirit, it becomes our conscience. It informs us in ways that we could never have informed ourselves before. It makes us see evil, and warns us before making ourselves, or each other stumble. The human conscience is not as strong as the Holy Spirit. The human conscience gives in to temptation. That is why no man can cure himself of sin.

[morosophos 0]

AS TO WILD20:

 

I never said anything about whether or not it was necessary to obey God. If you believe in God, then it follows that it is logical to obey Him. If you are not monotheistic, then it makes no sense. Here we are discussing the means to moral decision making, as I recall, so while God should be included in the discussion, it would be foolish to limit the debate to simply a monotheistic matter.

 

And yes, the Bible does make it quite clear that sins of omission are indeed sins, particularly in the New Testament. However, little mention is made in the Old Testament, including the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments do not have anything whatsoever about doing good inclusively, just instruction not to do bad.

 

The Ten Commandments are devine from the perspective of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims. They are the word of God and are infallible, as far as they are concerned. And if everyone in the world were of one of the aforementioned faiths, all anyone would need is the Ten Commandments and a conscience to follow them. Seeing as how this is not the case, the Ten Commandments are not a truly worldly source (whether you view this as a bad thing or not).

 

I agree with you in that following human nature alone will lead to awry decisions. It takes more than human nature, mostly because human nature is dictated by society. It is extremely subjective. Therefore, it isn't even truly "human" nature.

 

AS TO TRUEFUSION:

 

Perhaps the human conscience I was referring to does not exactly match your definition of conscience. By your mention of the Holy Spirit, I presume that you have a very spiritual outlook on conscience. As for myself, I refer to conscience in almost a purely rational sense?the part of the mind that evaluates a situation to decide what courses of action have what ends, ultimate good or ultimate harm. Of course, according to my definition of conscience, the conscience is purely a human function and is therefore fallible. Again, your mention of conscience alludes to the Devine, so you speak of a more infallible sort of conscience. It sounds to me that your conscience may be classified almost as "prudent intuition" or "empathy," whereas mine may be something like "analysation of the ends to a situation."

 

So far, then, we have the following methods of moral decision making:

Objective law (such as Ten Commandments)

"Human" nature (social standards)

Analysing given situation to its ends

Prudent intuition and empathy

I do not mean to offend anyone by seemingly removing the idea of God from these concepts, but in order to show that moral decisions must be made by every member of every society, not just god-fearing ones, I feel that I must made the terms such that they can globally be related to. I try my best to keep the same idea, and they should be the same thing (Prudent intuition and empathy were the attributes I derived from your post, Truefusion, concerning at least your view of the Holy Spirit, so I hope my interpretation may be sufficient for our means).

[wild20 0]

Ah ha! I see. I thought we were on a discussion of whether or not The Ten Commandments were a means to be judged be. Fine then, I can take this side of the table.Omission? We are back to that again? There are very few sins of omission, but you have failed to show me any anyway. The Ten commandments literally cover all the sins we could commit, and if it doesn't, they are mentioned elsewhere in the Bible. That is why I am saying to you that if say the Bible is accurate for seeking what is good and what is bad, then it must be devine and inspired by God. Everything is covered in there. It is the Instructions for us. Check it out yourself. Read Romans, Matthew, Jesus actually lists out in His life, the way to live. If we followed Jesus' example, the world would be perfect. Can you deny this? I doubt you can. And the point is, He kept the Ten commandments perfectly!And might I add a few things? Muslims do not believe the Ten commandments. They have their own set of books and scrolls. Jews are like us, they are the first people of God, but they do not believe in Jesus. This is where they have gone wrong. they only believe the first half of the Bible. Whereas we believe all of it. They keep the old law, that was nailed to the cross with Jesus. This was Moses' law. A set of ordinances. Just some reminders.You say that you agree that you cannot rely on Human "nature" alone. So what do you rely on then? You must rely on something otehr than the human race. Is it monkeys then? Or maybe fish? You can't go by them, you can't go by us, you have to rely on a devine power that actually knows what is right and wrong. Someone who has had thousands of years of experience. I don't agree with using human nature at all. However, I find taht your list to Truefusion is actually quite accurate, so long as you are using the Word of God as your guide. But I do find one problem.You are trying to basically conform to everyone. I don't think it is possible. One person may say, I believe that it is okay to just take a penny someone dropped, and otherws will say a hundred dollar bill. Neither of these people are going to like the Ten Commandments. But if you take that out, you then lose your whole moral structure. I find it dangerous and believe that if you are going to have a moral standard, you should make sure it will insure the safety of everyone, which is what the Ten commandments do.

[truefusion 3]

...

(Dont wanna quote the entire thing). But, perhaps my defintion was the same as your's. Only, i added

on to conscience.

Which is probably why the extra number on your list. But, the list is always bigger than we think it is.

[morosophos 0]

The Bible is a much larger document, Wild20. The Ten Commandments are good standards by means of following which one may not commit wrong. However, there is more wrong than in committing. These are called sins of ommission. Take for example, I am walking along an urban street, and a man, completely emaciated, beggs me for food. If I had plenty of money in my pocket but refused to give him anything, this is a sin. But what commandment says that I just sinned? None of them. I haven't done anything wrong, but it's what I did not do. However, if you wish to change from the Ten Commandments to the entire Bible, then this is a different matter. Because the Bible contains not only the Ten Commandments, but other statutes and stories with clear morals as well, it provides a much more thorough basis on moral decision making.

 

Another order of business, Mohammed, the Islam Prophet, was originally Christian. Islam is based on Christianity, and therefore much of the Quran was originally Christian writing. The Ten Commandments are still there.

 

Furthermore, you say "Jews are like us, they are the first people of God, but they do not believe in Jesus. This is where they have gone wrong. they only believe the first half of the Bible. Whereas we believe all of it. They keep the old law, that was nailed to the cross with Jesus. This was Moses' law. A set of ordinances." I dare ask what you would call the Ten Commandments. A "set of ordinances," perhaps? Certainly they were given by Moses. Wasn't your original argument that these were not "nailed to the cross with Jesus?" I would argue that the relevence of the Ten Commandments is still eminent.

 

I am lost as to your argument, Wild20, that I would rely on monkeys and fish for moral guidance. Rather, I would rely on a number of sources to make moral decisions. My aforeposted list gives a few of the sources I could consult to make an earnest decision?including human judgment and nature. We cannot overlook this, no matter how imperfect it is. Even if I were to solely rely on devine inspiration for all my decisions, we cannot forget that it is I who will be acting upon this new guidance; I am human. Therefore, even devine inspiration will be subject to my human flaw. Nevertheless we cannot look upon human nature as evil, either. For Christians, has not God created humans and thus human nature? God made mankind and saw that it was good; mankind did make the mistake betraying God by eating of the Tree of Knowledge, but there is much good left in humanity, despite its flaws.

 

"You are trying to basically conform to everyone. I don't think it is possible. One person may say, I believe that it is okay to just take a penny someone dropped, and otherws will say a hundred dollar bill. Neither of these people are going to like the Ten Commandments. But if you take that out, you then lose your whole moral structure. I find it dangerous and believe that if you are going to have a moral standard, you should make sure it will insure the safety of everyone, which is what the Ten commandments do."---

Excellent point. It is hardly rational to think that the entire world will conform to one way of being moral, much less one moral standard. Your analogy of the penny and hundred-dollar-bill demonstrate exactly how people have varying moral values. However, both of them could still believe they are obeying the Ten Commandments; what if they found that money? Since it's not directly stealing, they may view it as discovering the money, and finders keepers. Personally, that's a terrible and irresponsible thing to do, especially in regards to the hundred dollars. However, this shows that moral standards are liable to be interpreted differently. Your "moral structure," if I understand correctly, is a group of people (say, a faith or a religion) acting very coherently according to a moral standard. You are very apparently Christian, Wild20, so you and others like you will adhere vehemently to the Bible and the passages and laws contained within. Your moral structure is in no danger. However, if you try to classify all of, say, the United States as a moral structure, than yes?the moral structure is doomed to collapse. There are just far too many cultures and different religions in America in order to have one moral structure to which all can conform. And if safety is what you have in mind, then the Ten Commandments, as I have stated many times before, are perhaps amongst the perfect laws for preventing harm (though not necessarily doing good [sins of ommission]).

 

If you are saying that humanity is extremely unlikely to conform to one moral standard, that people (wrongly or rightly) interpret moral standards, and that moral standards should be used for the general benefaction of humanity, then I would have to completely agree with you.

[truefusion 3]

Take for example, I am walking along an urban street, and a man, completely emaciated, beggs me for food. If I had plenty of money in my pocket but refused to give him anything, this is a sin. But what commandment says that I just sinned? None of them. I haven't done anything wrong, but it's what I did not do.

To answer your question, second commandment. And, yes you did do something wrong, cause you didnt do anything right. Doing nothing is doing something.

[wild20 0]

Yes I am sorry Morosophos, I meant we can take the rest of the Bible in a literal way too. Yeah the Ten Commandments say nothing bout what happens if you don't do anything, but the rest of the Bible does. My argument is this. It is not possible to rely only on human "nature", or behavior really, alone. You will stumble and fall then. You can rely only on the Bible though, because in the vitals areas such s what not and what to do, it is very clear. And no one can say otherwise. When it says do not steal, it says do not steal. When it says do not lie, you don't lie. When someones life is at stake? You can do one of two things, tell the person that will cause the person to die, and either trust that God will intervene on their part, and that His will is done, or, lie, save the person's life. But there is a Bible story to go along as guidance here. It says in the Bible that if a government is lawful and bringing righteousness to the land, you should obey them, because they are of God. But what about ones who don't? You still have to obey, but not what goes against the Bible. In the story of Rahab, she saved two spies lives when they were stuck in the City of Jericho. And God did not hold it against her. We can learn from this. Anything in life has a answer in the Bible.Yes human "nature" is used to an extent in judging and acting upon things and decisions in the Bible. God is not the author of evil. You said that He created human nature. Yes He did, but it was changed when we sinned. We are not robots. You have to believe on your own. You still have moral decision making skills even if you are not saved, but most of the time, the other part, evil, rules over the right. Sometimes unbelievers make kind decisions, and this is an excellent example. But when we believe in God, He gives us a little of that original nature back to us. It is this nature that allows us to make the right decisions. This is what I want to follow. My point is you have to use human judgement very sparingly, and use the Bible liberally. You should never rely on your judgement alone.As to your response my my analogy, I would like to use a small hypothetical situation. We wanted to make the Earth prefect and without sin. How would we do it? What standard would we conform to? You will have to adhere to one law. What will it be? I am not saying it is impossible for the human race to adhere to one moral standard, I am saying it won't happen if we don't do two things. Stop and follow the Bible, and accept God into our lives, our creator. Why? If you follow the Bible without god, you won't be able to do it. I promise you that. Why? Because there is no reason to. No incentive. God is our incentive. We follow Him because we recognize Him as our creator. He created us. And because it says to follow His commandments, we do. The whole Bible is a moral standard to live by. But back to our situation. How would you rid a whole world of sin? Like you said, we need a moral standard, we need an incentive, but we also need to know what moral standard. Mormons believe in multiple wives, which leads to unfaithfulness anyway. So not that. Others promote domination of the whole world by their religions, which can't happen, because that is force. You need everyone to accept this FREEWILL. so we have Christianity. It doesn't believe in killing, promotion of it's religion above God, or above the whole world. It promotes goodness and righteousness. Where does all this,..peace come from though? That is the beauty of it all. It comes from God, and the Bible. A moral standard by which we can follow, and be perfect, if it was followed exactly. There you have it.

[iGuest 3]

The Ten CommandmentsThe Ten Commandments

It is great to see that there are actually people out there who are willing to express honest views about whether the Ten Commandments are still valid for us today.  Thank you so much for making this clear.  We are living in the end times and it is much closer that we could ever imagine.  We are about to enter a time of great trouble which most Christians are not even prepared to meet.  The only way is to keep the commandments, stick to it and keep the faith that by keeping to the ten commandments, especially the fourth in end time events, you can be certain that Jesus will not forsake you.  And He will definitely not let anything happen to His flock.

-reply by Crystal