Various Religions, beliefs and conviction discussions of faith and opinions

[CroSpartacus 0]

The Catholic Church did issue apologies for all the wrongs they have done in the past, I believe Pope John Paul II was the one who issued it.The Catholic Church is a human organization and they make mistakes as well. Some things they have done were not Christian nor what Jesus Christ taught.People should not blame the church's faults on Christ or Christianity.

[truefusion 3]

[1]Hmmmm if someone does not want to believe, don't Woe (!) them, it's their decision

[2]How can you say religion wasn't made by the governments back then, were you there? lol

[3]Those who killed Jesus, founded the Vatican and abused his teaching and wisdom for power. They incited crusades to convince and/or force other races to turn to 'their' God. They killed thousands of so called 'witches' and made them look evil, during the inquisition and still people kill for this 'God' oh and did I mention the head of Johan the Baptist, wich they still hold in their catacombs? The vatican was just an example, but every religion has worked (ruled) this way.

Oh and in every war, leader told their soldiers :'May God have mercy on you'.

 

[4]No 'God' will decent from the skies to save us, the only ones who can save us are ourselves!

[5]I really don't like that they use this to make people obey their laws. No one will go to hell for not listening or following their rules, wich is written and edited over and over again. Heck, Hell is just another made-up thing wich they use to control peoples, you really think a red kinda beast with a pointy tail, forked tongue and a bad breath is waiting under the soil on wich we walk for people who done bad things? Heh if I look at the 'Devil' this way, he reminds me of our 'beloved' worldleaders

Hell is just wat we make of our lives, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[1]I am aware that it's their decision. I woe them cause i feel sorry that they've made that decision.

[2]How can you say it was, were you there when it started?

[3]Like i've said, dont look at the "believers". Indeed, it is very hard to find true believers, but we do exist. But, i'm sure you wont let it go. But, if that's so, then we might not let go of the other killings done by non-believers. Which is WAY more than what "believers" have ever done.

[4]We never said God will descend from the heavens, for the universe cannot hold God, but our Lord and Savior (Jesus Christ). As for "the only ones who can save us are ourselves", it depends on what can we save ourselves from. We cannot save ourselves from many things. I havent fully thought this through, but i believe the things that we cannot save ourselves from are greater in amount than the things we can save ourselves from.

[5]It's not used to make people obey them. Hell is a place where all sinners go. Just cause it's been written many times, doesnt mean it doesnt have the same meaning. It's translated in many different languages. The reason why there are so many english versions is cause one Hebrew word can have many meanings in english. I dont recall the devil being described like the way you say it is, in the Bible. And the Bible never said Hell is under the earth. You must have a misunderstanding of the word "hades" or something.

Edited April 12, 2006 by truefusion (see edit history)

[HoRuS 0]

[1]I am aware that it's their decision. I woe them cause i feel sorry that they've made that decision.

[2]How can you say it was, were you there when it started?

[3]Like i've said, dont look at the "believers". Indeed, it is very hard to find true believers, but we do exist. But, i'm sure you wont let it go. But, if that's so, then we might not let go of the other killings done by non-believers. Which is WAY more than what "believers" have ever done.

[4]We never said God will descend from the heavens, for the universe cannot hold God, but our Lord and Savior (Jesus Christ). As for "the only ones who can save us are ourselves", it depends on what can we save ourselves from. We cannot save ourselves from many things. I havent fully thought this through, but i believe the things that we cannot save ourselves from are greater in amount than the things we can save ourselves from.

[5]It's not used to make people obey them. Hell is a place where all sinners go. Just cause it's been written many times, doesnt mean it doesnt have the same meaning. It's translated in many different languages. The reason why there are so many english versions is cause one Hebrew word can have many meanings in english. I dont recall the devil being described like the way you say it is, in the Bible. And the Bible never said Hell is under the earth. You must have a misunderstanding of the word "hades" or something.

[1]Still you have no right to woe! them... We have been given a free will.

[2]No, but it's kinda odd that a religion, based on Jesus, is founded by those who killed him. (history and logic)

[3]Name me the killing of non-believers and the wars by believers and we'll calculate the difference

[4]We can save ourselves, by opening our eyes and learn to read between the lines. What Jesus could do, can we all do. He just showed us this potential, but I guess it's a human thing to think that someone who balanced body and soul is a God or a saviour.

[5]I also said edited. At least 50% of the Bilbe, Koran or any other 'holy' book is falsified to supress peoples.

And no, Hades was the Greek 'God' of war, made up by Greeks or maybe another human who used his powers in a wrong way. Same with Satan, also made up or misunderstood. What I learned was that Satan wanted to achieve with materialism what God has achieved with Love. But I guess we'll have to wait for the truth untill we die or untill we overcome our fear to open our eyes.

[Thorned Rose 0]

Truefusion, you are obviously too entrenched in your religion to ever listen to anyone else. Although I do have to say with regards to sin and you saying I have just never met a true christian. Well 1. I think my Mother would be VERY upset at you saying she is not a true Christian considering you sound just like her, 2. if a true Christian is a person who lives their life without sin then there is no such thing as a true Christian because according to your religion, everybody is innately sinful - something which not even Jesus can atest to seens as he sinned as well. Before any Christians have a mental at me, you should know your Bible better -

13 Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. 15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers? money and overturned the tables. 16 And He said to those who sold doves, ?Take these things away! Do not make My Father?s house a house of merchandise!?- Jn 2:13-16.

But I suppose that Christians will argue that is was righteous wrath and therfore ok (just like I've heard Christians saying about their own actions).

Or how about this one for you - God is a sinner because he committed adultery - 14 ?You shall not commit adultery. - Exodus 20:14. WHAT!? you say? Well, Mary was betrothed to Joseph and God got her pregnant with his son. Sounds like adultery to me.

Anyways all of this aside. You say that I am teaching my children to be attached to life - well yes and no. I want them to value their life and that of others so yes. But also no because I teach my children that one day your body dies but your soul lives on etc etc etc.

As for hell being the place sinners go, well according to Christians I am a sinner so I should go to hell, but when I died I didn't go to hell, not unless hell is a place of joy, there's lots of other people, you can see everything etc etc etc.

But I have let this get the better of me again. I'm not going to waste my time on people who are so caught up in their own little realities that they cannot (or rather) will not see the truth of things. I have better things to be doing with my time, like spending it on my children who are the future.

[Zythrix 0]

If I were to believe in a god, I certainly wouldn't choose any of the religions that there are. It's my understanding that you shouldn't need a priest or a church or a book to be a good person and believe in something. People aren't so ignorant that they need one of those three things to define right and wrong for them. To me, nobody that's a part of an organized religion has it right. But, then again, I don't believe in god so I'm sure one of you will tell me that I don't have a say in the matter or something. Religion is nothing more than an excuse and a security blanket. I used to attend a youth group when I was younger. Our "church" was my friend's back yard (his dad was the pastor). He didn't have any nice cars or money, because he didn't collect donations. Where does that money go in a normal church? Into some big ridiculous building and the pastor's pocket. Sometimes they donate it but not very often. He didn't claim any certain religion, just 'believers'. He used the bible as references not a rule book. I'd have to say of all of the "faithfuls" that I've seen in my life, those of that youth group had the strongest conviction and most convincing faith.I was turned away from a Catholic church because I wouldn't take part in there tithing, or whatever it's called. I simply didn't see a need for the church to have a percentage of my check every week. I think I need it more than them. If people would sit down.. and read every "guideline" in the bible and then look at how they are actually living (WITHOUT having their eyes closed like so many are) they would realize they are making a horrid mockery of what faith is. Faith is just that, faith. You believe or you don't. You don't need to start a cult to profess it.

[truefusion 3]

[1]Still you have no right to woe! them... We have been given a free will.

[2]No, but it's kinda odd that a religion, based on Jesus, is founded by those who killed him. (history and logic)

[3]Name me the killing of non-believers and the wars by believers and we'll calculate the difference wink.gif

[4]We can save ourselves, by opening our eyes and learn to read between the lines. What Jesus could do, can we all do. He just showed us this potential, but I guess it's a human thing to think that someone who balanced body and soul is a God or a saviour.

[5]I also said edited. At least 50% of the Bilbe, Koran or any other 'holy' book is falsified to supress peoples.

And no, Hades was the Greek 'God' of war, made up by Greeks or maybe another human who used his powers in a wrong way. Same with Satan, also made up or misunderstood. What I learned was that Satan wanted to achieve with materialism what God has achieved with Love. But I guess we'll have to wait for the truth untill we die or untill we overcome our fear to open our eyes.

Thanks for numbering these!

[1]So, i have no right to feel sorry for others? I should have known...

[2]I'm confused. I dont recall Christians killing Christ. Is that what you're implying?

[3]

If you examine the atrocities perpetrated by atheists, you find that they have killed more people in the last century than all of the crimes of 2000 years of "church" history combined. Joseph Stalin killed 20 million Soviet citizens between 1929 and 1939 because they were not politically correct. Mao Tse-tung killed 34 to 62 million Chinese during the Chinese civil war of the 1930s and 1940s. Pol Pot, the leader of the Marxist regime in Cambodia, Kampuchea, in the 1970's killed 1.7 million of his own people. In fact, the Pol Pot regime specifically preached atheism and sought to exterminate all religious expression in Cambodia.

I'm sure there's more, but, you may add all those killings up, and then add up all the killings done for religion, and see which one is greater than.

[4]The thing about Jesus Christ, He never did anything wrong. The thing about us, we have! So as you can see, although you do good, doesnt mean you're saved, cause you didnt repent.

[5]Supress people? How so?

The "hades" you're refering to has to do with Greek Mythology. It is not the "hades" i was refering to. The word "hades" i was refering to is the counterpart of Sheol:

Sheol (שאול) is the Hebrew language word denoting the "abode of the dead"; the "underworld", "grave" or "pit". In the Hebrew Bible it is portrayed as a comfortless place beneath the earth, beyond gates, where both the bad and the good, slave and king, pious and wicked must go after death to sleep in silence and oblivion in the dust.

Because Hades is commonly interpreted as the god of the underworld, many people relate that to the devil. And the devil is known to be in hell. So, if you put them together, creates a false interpretation.

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[1]Truefusion, you are obviously too entrenched in your religion to ever listen to anyone else. Although I do have to say with regards to sin and you saying I have just never met a true christian. Well [2]1. I think my Mother would be VERY upset at you saying she is not a true Christian considering you sound just like her, [3]2. if a true Christian is a person who lives their life without sin then there is no such thing as a true Christian because according to your religion, everybody is innately sinful - something which not even [4]Jesus can atest to seens as he sinned as well. Before any Christians have a mental at me, you should know your Bible better -

13 Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. 15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers? money and overturned the tables. 16 And He said to those who sold doves, ?Take these things away! Do not make My Father?s house a house of merchandise!?- Jn 2:13-16.

But I suppose that Christians will argue that is was righteous wrath and therfore ok (just like I've heard Christians saying about their own actions).

[5]Or how about this one for you - God is a sinner because he committed adultery - 14 ?You shall not commit adultery. - Exodus 20:14. WHAT!? you say? Well, Mary was betrothed to Joseph and God got her pregnant with his son. Sounds like adultery to me.

[6]Anyways all of this aside. You say that I am teaching my children to be attached to life - well yes and no. I want them to value their life and that of others so yes. But also no because I teach my children that one day your body dies but your soul lives on etc etc etc.

[7]As for hell being the place sinners go, well according to Christians I am a sinner so I should go to hell, but when I died I didn't go to hell, not unless hell is a place of joy, there's lots of other people, you can see everything etc etc etc.

But I have let this get the better of me again. [8]I'm not going to waste my time on people who are so caught up in their own little realities that they cannot (or rather) will not see the truth of things. [9]I have better things to be doing with my time, like spending it on my children who are the future.

[1]Well, in a way, this can be said to you as well. You seem to have passed over my questions. I would have liked them answered...

[2]Please tell me where i have said that. Unless you're putting words onto my hands.

You blame your mom for devoting herself to God. By the looks of it, you are underestimating God's power. If your mom ever prays to God, and asks for Him to help you, it shall happen! Cause by the looks of it, her faith keeps growing!

[3]A true Christian is one who repents for what he's done in the past and does not do it again.

[4]You're forgetting something, Jesus was born from a virgin (do some research on this and you'll understand what i mean). Another thing, Jesus can communicate with God whenever He wanted (another thing for you to do research on). Yes, it can be considered a righteous thing to have done. But, where's the sin in that? Jesus didnt kill anyone or anything. Anyone can drive someone out of something without hurting them. Where does it say that Jesus used the whip for evil? Where does it say that He whipped people or things to drive them out?

[5]Betrothed, you say? So, engaged to be, but not actually married. Just like Matthew 1:18,

His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together...

[6]Ah, you should have told me about that second part. Your motto is what made me think otherwise.

Love and Life - Love life and live love.

[7]When did you die?

[8]But, i've taken the time for you.

[9]Well, then, let God give you more time to spend with your children.

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It's hard to fix the things of the past sometimes...

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[Kioku 0]

When Rome empire killed Jesus, His students made him as a God. As to me, it is very stupid. First of all Jesus was jewish, as a result, he was the son of Avraham, so he was the son of God, like all the Jews. Moreover, He made a lot of wrong deeds, due to them he was killed.

You should do more reading. He claimed to be the son of a God, just as the Emporer did at that time. It challenged his beliefs, from two people claiming the same thing and he saw him as a threat.

[Joshua 0]

Alright, I know I've been away from Xisto for a while now and from this topic, but I'll try answering some of the last few points made.

Yes, many wrongs have been done in the name of Christianity. Just because a pope or anyone else apologizes for them doesn't make them any less wrong. The only way Christianity would still make sense is if such wrongs were not of Christianity nor excusable according to Christianity.

If you look at Christianity's history you will see many instances of horrible wrongs done. However, you will also notice that a great number of them were perpetrated by so-called Christians on others who claimed to be Christians. The difference was, some Christians didn't fight back with violence. For example, the Inquisition tortured many Christians who rejected Catholocism. The Catholic Church set bounties on the heads of Anabaptists, Montanists, Donatists, Hutterites, and many others for hundreds of years.

There have been many Christians like the anabaptists who died forgiving their enemies, refusing to use violence even in self-defense, and died praising God. Even today, people all around the world are persecuted for Christ without fighting back, and even forgiving their enemies! Which ones then do you think are the true Christians, the ones who use violence or the ones who don't?

How can we know which are the real ones? Jesus Himself said that many would be fake Christians:

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Yet few will find the path to life. Concerning pacifism, what do you think Jesus and the apostles taught?

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

1 Corinthians 6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

1 Peter 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

What then is Christianity about? Is it about fighting to defend ourselves? Is Christ's kingdom of the world? Do we use physical means to fight?

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Matthew 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Luke 22:49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?
50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.

Not only is Christianity not about such violence to others, but it does not condone it either!

To ThornedRose: We cannot judge others because we are not perfect ourselves. Only God is perfect, and able to render justice. Therefore Jesus was just in driving out those from the temple, but we cannot be. God alone is good:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Only those without sin can judge others in the sense of punishing or condemning:

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

But we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, meaning Jesus is the only human exception, since He IS God:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Finally, it's a good point that those who killed Jesus founded the vatican. Do you think it possible that the vatican and thus Catholocism as an institution is simply the continuation of the religious Pharisee institution which killed Jesus, and is thus simply posing as Christianity while continuing to persecute the true Christians and continuers of Jesus' teachings of pacifism and love for others?

[Thorned Rose 0]

Can there ever be a forum about religion where Christians don't come along and Bible bash or spout 'wisdom' from the Bible and try to 'save' everyone. This thread was originally about religions in general and it has ended up being Christians mouthing off how sinful we are and if we only believed in Jesus, we will all be saved. Please! My soul is perfectly fine, thank you.And for the record, Jesus was NOT without sin - he was guilty of wrath (one of the seven deadly sins for those of you playing at home).

[adriantc 0]

I am also a non-believer. I don't question the fact that there was a men called Jesus, I just question his divine nature. For this topic I remembered a quote from Marx (I know he isn't the most popular figure, but he really does have a point):

 

Religion is the opium of the people

 

Of course what Marx and communism didn't understand is that people do need religion, but not for the divine reason, for a more earthly reason. They need hope, they need something to believe in. Hope makes people get throught the worst circumstances. They rejected religion and of course the result is well known.

On the other hand too much believe is as good, maybe even worst, then not believing. That is I think the difference between Christianity and Islam... too little believe and too much believe.

My history teacher once told me the reason why Christianity has spread so fast throught the Roman Empire and I think he was right. The new religion was far better the their old one and not because it was real, but because it made people wait for a reward in an afterlife, not in their life as the old religion. As I seeit religion is a method of control even if it is called Christianity or Islam.

[truefusion 3]

And for the record, Jesus was NOT without sin - he was guilty of wrath (one of the seven deadly sins for those of you playing at home).

1. I failed to read the part where the Bible mentions wrath as sin, unless it's wicked wrath (relates to number 2).
2. There are two kinds of wrath: Divine and wicked. (I'm pretty sure the same can be said for boasting, and pride). God's and Jesus's wrath are divine wrath, meaning the judgement is fair, cause they know all. Wicked wrath: unfair judgement, ignorant judgment.

[hr=noshade]

[1]The new religion was far better the their old one and not because it was real, but because it made people wait for a reward in an afterlife, not in their life as the old religion. [2]As I seeit religion is a method of control even if it is called Christianity or Islam.

[1]Read Psalm and any other book that speaks about the Messiah.
[2]I guess this is where we talk about free will.
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You must first be a non-believer in order to believe.
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[HoRuS 0]

Hmmm it's somewhat weird how they managed to write down Jesus' life.It starts when he was born and suddenly he is an adult! Could it be that he did some things during his adolescence (typo) and young adulthood? Or what did happen what is left out, so we don't know? Please don't give me excuses about he was the 'son' of God and was an adult in a few days, because we all are children of God and it took me 21 years to grow up :lol:And another paradox, Jesus was a prophet, just like Horus, Quetzapatl, Tutankhamon, Boeddha, Krishna, Mohammed and many more... It is even thinkable that they are one and the same 'entity', why do we only (ab)use Jesus' and Mohammed's teachings? Is it becuase they used metafors instead of facts, so what they wanted to teach us could be misformed and edited to our will? Or is it because the others used facts and proof wich couldn't be changed into whatever the worldleader want us to think?

Edited April 22, 2006 by HoRuS (see edit history)

[Thorned Rose 0]

When I first said that Jesus DID sin, I said that most likely some Christian would come along and say that it was righteous wrath and predictably a christian has. I find it fascinating that so many religions spout what you should and shouldn't do and then break those rules themselves all under the guise of righteousness or divine guidence. Just like the parents who killed their child because "God told them to". They thought they had a divine and righteous reason to commit murder. But I suppose a Christian will predictably come along and tell me that those parents weren't true Christians or they were a bit looney. Well if that's the case then what's to say that ALL Chritians aren't looney? George W. Bush said that God told him he should go to war. Sounds like the same thing as those parents, only he's ended up killing thousands of innocent people all in the name of righteousness. But hey, they were only Muslims right? (Remember the crusades?)

adriantc has a very good point. If you look at religion from a sociological/psychological point of view Religion meets some very fundamental human fears - fear of being alone (you belong to a group), fear of the unknown (with God you need not fear anything), fear of death (the afterlife) and insecurity (religious texts tell you what to do). The fact of the matter is, many people fill themselves with religious beliefs because they are fearful and insecure. Which is why the majority of religious people are poor and/or uneducated. You have a lower percentage of relious people in the rich and/or educted. That's not always they case, just proportions and percentages. Another interesting statistic is the number of people who turn to religion - many of them have had a bad life or had some traumtic experience so that they feel lost and alone, making them susceptible to the 'benefits' of religion. Christians will call it saving that person, or showing them the right path but the reality (and statistics) are they are just taking advantage of someone who at that point in time is mentally compromised and emotionally needy. It works on a large scale as well. If you have a restless or rioting population you install strict religious edicts and give people a sense of righteousness and reward for 'good' behaviour.

And as Horus pointed out, what about Jesus' adolescence?

What about the fact that so many of the Bible's stories sound exactly the same as stories that predate the Bible? e.g. The great flood and the story of Gilgamesh which predates the Old Testament by 2000 years.

The Jews spent about 60 years in Babylon where they were taught writing and written language and after leaving started on the Old Testament which as I said, has stories remarkeably similar to Babylonian ones. Looks like plagiarism.

[truefusion 3]

[1]Hmmm it's somewhat weird how they managed to write down Jesus' life.

It starts when he was born and suddenly he is an adult! Could it be that he did some things during his adolescence (typo) and young adulthood? Or what did happen what is left out, so we don't know? [2]Please don't give me excuses about he was the 'son' of God and was an adult in a few days, because we all are children of God and it took me 21 years to grow up

 

[3]And another paradox, Jesus was a prophet, just like Horus, Quetzapatl, Tutankhamon, Boeddha, Krishna, Mohammed and many more... It is even thinkable that they are one and the same 'entity', why do we only (ab)use Jesus' and Mohammed's teachings? [4]Is it becuase they used metafors instead of facts, so what they wanted to teach us could be misformed and edited to our will? Or is it because the others used facts and proof wich couldn't be changed into whatever the worldleader want us to think?

[1]Well, indeed Jesus had some growing up to do. How much "power" does a child have? Plus, the Gospels were written by adults. Luke's Gospel was written by questioning people, cause they were witnesses of the events. John's Gospel was actually written by John.

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. John 21:25

[2]Didnt have to.

[3]There are many false prophets. After examining them very closely, and precisely, you'll come to realise just how false they were. But, just cause there are many of them, doesnt mean that they're all false.

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Matthew 7:15

[4]

This is why i speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see;

though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

"'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;

you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

For this people's heart has become calloused;

they hardly hear with their ears, and they have close their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts

and turn, and i would heal them.' Matthew 13:13

[hr=noshade]

[1]When I first said that Jesus DID sin, I said that most likely some Christian would come along and say that it was righteous wrath and predictably a christian has. I find it fascinating that so many religions spout what you should and shouldn't do and then break those rules themselves all under the guise of righteousness or divine guidence. [2]Just like the parents who killed their child because "God told them to". They thought they had a divine and righteous reason to commit murder. [3]But I suppose a Christian will predictably come along and tell me that those parents weren't true Christians or they were a bit looney. [4]Well if that's the case then what's to say that ALL Chritians aren't looney? George W. Bush said that God told him he should go to war. Sounds like the same thing as those parents, only he's ended up killing thousands of innocent people all in the name of righteousness. But hey, they were only Muslims right? (Remember the crusades?)

[5]adriantc has a very good point. If you look at religion from a sociological/psychological point of view Religion meets some very fundamental human fears - fear of being alone (you belong to a group), fear of the unknown (with God you need not fear anything), fear of death (the afterlife) and insecurity (religious texts tell you what to do). The fact of the matter is, many people fill themselves with religious beliefs because they are fearful and insecure. [6]Which is why the majority of religious people are poor and/or uneducated. You have a lower percentage of relious people in the rich and/or educted. That's not always they case, just proportions and percentages. [7]Another interesting statistic is the number of people who turn to religion - many of them have had a bad life or had some traumtic experience so that they feel lost and alone, making them susceptible to the 'benefits' of religion. [8]Christians will call it saving that person, or showing them the right path but the reality (and statistics) are they are just taking advantage of someone who at that point in time is mentally compromised and emotionally needy. [9]It works on a large scale as well. If you have a restless or rioting population you install strict religious edicts and give people a sense of righteousness and reward for 'good' behaviour.

[10]And as Horus pointed out, what about Jesus' adolescence?

[11]What about the fact that so many of the Bible's stories sound exactly the same as stories that predate the Bible? e.g. The great flood and the story of Gilgamesh which predates the Old Testament by 2000 years.

The Jews spent about 60 years in Babylon where they were taught writing and written language and after leaving started on the Old Testament which as I said, has stories remarkeably similar to Babylonian ones. Looks like plagiarism.

[/hr]

[1]So, you predicted correctly, based on others' responses. Does that make it wrong? Even the Bible is against people who do evil and use righteousness in order to do them.

[2]God would not allow their children to die, if God "really told them to".

[3]Didnt have to.

[4]Everyone knows God would not tell him to go to war. Why would he be so special to hear God's voice? He just used good for evil...

[5]Move on to number [6]. xD

[6]Since when do rich people and "educated" people know better? The rich only care for themselves. They find security within their money. I guess same can be said for "educated" people. The wisdom of man is nothing. The wisdom of God will last forever.

[7]This kinda relates to what i've said in [6].

[8]Response: 1. At least we're helping. 2. Seems like others don't seem to care. 3. So, cause of "statistics" it's considered wrong?

[9]We are not the ones who can properly reward someone.

[10]Already took care of it.

[11]Well lets look at the differences, and you tell me which one is better:

Reason for flood

Genesis: human wickedness (extreme violence).

Gilgamesh: excessive human noisiness.

 

Response of deity

Genesis: Lord was sorry He made man because of his wickedness.

Gilgamesh: gods could not sleep.

 

Warned by

Genesis: Yahweh (God).

Gilgamesh: Ea.

 

Main Character

Genesis: Noah ("rest").

Gilgamesh: Utnapishtim ("finder of life").

 

Why character chosen

Genesis: a righteous man.

Gilgamesh: no reason given.

 

Intended for

Genesis: All humans, except Noah and his family.

Gilgamesh: All humans.

 

Decision to send flood

Genesis: Yahweh (God).

Gilgamesh: council of the gods (primarily Enlil).

 

Builders

Genesis: Noah and family.

Gilgamesh: Utnapishtim, his family, and many craftsmen from city.

 

Character's response

Genesis: Noah warned his neighbors of upcoming judgment as "Preacher of righteousness".

Gilgamesh: Told by Ea to lie to neighbors so that they would help him build the boat.

 

Building time

Genesis: 100 years.

Gilgamesh: 7 days.

 

Boat size

Genesis: 450x75x45 feet.

Gilgamesh: 200x200x200 (unseaworthy cube).

 

Boat roof

Genesis: wood.

Gilgamesh: slate (top heavy?).

 

# Decks

Genesis: 3.

Gilgamesh: 12.

 

Humans

Genesis: Noah and family.

Gilgamesh: Utnapishtim, his family, and craftsmen from city.

 

Cargo

Genesis: animals and food.

Gilgamesh: animals, food, gold jewels, and other valuables.

 

Launching

Genesis: by the floodwaters.

Gilgamesh: pushed to the river.

 

Door closed by

Genesis: Yahweh (God).

Gilgamesh: Utnapishtim.

 

Sign of coming flood

Genesis: None.

Gilgamesh: extremely bright light sent by god Annanuki.

 

Waters sent by

Genesis: Yahweh (God).

Gilgamesh: gods Nergal and Ninurta.

 

Reaction of deity to flood

Genesis: in control of waters.

Gilgamesh: gods scrambled to get away from water like "whipped dogs" (some gods!).

 

Duration of rain

Genesis: 40 days.

Gilgamesh: 7 days (not long enough?).

 

Duration of flood

Genesis: 260 days.

Gilgamesh: 14 days.

 

Boat landing

Genesis: Mt. Ararat.

Gilgamesh: Mt. Nisir.

 

Deity's reaction to human deaths

Genesis: No regret mentioned.

Gilgamesh: regretted that they had killed all the humans.

 

Birds sent out

Genesis: raven returns, dove returns second time with olive branch, then leaves.

Gilgamesh: dove returns, swallow returns, raven does not return.

 

Offering after flood

Genesis: every clean animal and bird.

Gilgamesh: wines and a sheep.

 

Aftermath

Genesis: God promises not to destroy humanity by flood again.

Gilgamesh: gods quarrel among themselves, god Ea lies to Enlil. Utnapishtim and wife made into gods.

 

Repopulation

Genesis: Noah and family told to multiply and repopulate the earth.

Gilgamesh: Ea and Mami created 14 human beings to help repopulate the earth.

 

Well, um, i'll leave you with that.

[hr=noshade]

Everything that has been said by non-believers, are always the same, and have been overcomed.

[/hr]

Edited April 23, 2006 by truefusion (see edit history)

[HoRuS 0]

[1] Well I can't agree with what you say about children... From what I saw children have more 'power' then adults, because they are closer to God then any adult could dream of. Children wich are now born are here to teach our race the same as what Jesus and the other prophets tried to teach us.

 

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. John 21:25

This proofs for me that a lot of information is left out systematical.

Why bother to write a few books in wich, they say, most of his life was written and don't write another few books to fill up the rest? Why leave out the most important time of his life, childhood and adolesence, in wich adulthood took shape?

 

[2] Still waiting...

 

[3] Typical... To say many other prophets are false, except your own.

I know Jesus was a real prophet but that doesn't mean the rest weren't.

 

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Matthew 7:15

To me this is one of the parts wich was edited to make sure no one will listen to other prophets.

Wolf in sheep's clothing... What are we, sheep to them? To be honest, when I look around, people are sheep, blindly following whatever what is told to them. They talk about free will, but they only follow the will of the 'elites*'.

 

This is why i speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see;

though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

"'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;

you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

For this people's heart has become calloused;

they hardly hear with their ears, and they have close their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts

and turn, and i would heal them.' Matthew 13:13

Yeah that I allready know, but I asked if that is why we only (ab)use Jesus' and Mohammed's teachings.

Those parables in the Bible and Koran can easily be misinterpreted and changed because the leaders of those religions tell their followers what it means with suggestive thinking instead of letting the followers find the meaning in their own hearts.

 

(* With 'elites' I point out to the various leaders in religions and politics)

Edited April 23, 2006 by HoRuS (see edit history)