Super Smash Bros Melee

[Red Alert 0]

Well...Hal saw how competitive SSB had become with Z-canceling, so they nerfed it a bit, but still left it in SSBM as L-canceling. They probably didn't foresee things like wavedashing and infinite combos...but they imagined it could be as competitive as SSB was.On a side note: anyone want to see a Marth vs Roy analysis I wrote up?

[Dart-kun 0]

Red Alert, sure, I have seen other ones before (comparing speed, damage and whatnot) but I'd love to see more.But overall, Marth is better then Roy.

[[i]_R_Crazy_Idiot 0]

Man, good memories, good memories. I really regret selling my gamecube AND my N64 game cartrdridge. That was too rash. Oh well.I played it for a while a few days back, man that was so fun. I just love owning up everybody with a bunch of fox. And when I'm about to die, I run around like a idiot. Or when they use the Samus beam and I reflect and go flying, that's awesome.

[Red Alert 0]

Now, I could just throw the statistics at you to begin, but I?ll start with an introduction. The Marth vs Roy debate is probably the biggest divider between the pros and newbs of SSBM. The newbs see Roy as one of the best, if the not the best, character in the game. The pros know better, though, and realize that when you take into account every aspect of the character, Marth is far better. Newbs generally think Roy is a ?stronger, faster version of Marth?. The best reason for this common misconception is probably the fact that newbs have a hard time sweet-spotting (this is hitting with the very tip of the blade, where Marth does the most damage) Marth?s attacks and therefore don?t realize that his smashes have slightly more damage and knockback.

 

But if it?s only slightly more damage and knockback, why is Marth so much better? Roy still has a one hit KO move and a more powerful counter!

I said smashes have slightly more. Most people who think Roy is better mainly do smash attacks, and occasional tilt. They never use aerial attacks to make an assault, which is what Roy players SHOULD be doing. Marth?s aerial game is so much better than Roy?s that there?s no questioning it ? Marth?s aerial attacks come out considerably faster than Roy?s, have more range, and do way more damage. Marth has one of the best aerial games in the game while Roy?s?sucks.

 

Yea, but Roy still has a one hit KO move and a better counter. His attacks also set the opponent on fire!

I can?t tell you how many times I?ve heard these as reasons for Roy being better?sigh?

1. Roy?s one hit KO move takes about 5 seconds to charge. Whoever you?re facing would have to be as dumb as a rock to walk into that

2. Roy?s counter comes out slower than Marth?s and doesn?t last as long. It?s not as much as an advantage as it may seem since it?s easily punished.

3. Fire is nothing but a flashy effect. It deals no extra stun than the attack would normally deal.

 

You?re wrong. The better character just depends on the person?s playing style

This is right?to an extent. Like I said before, most newbs just spam smashes and tilts with Roy without any regard to the sweet-spot, so in their case Roy would be better. But for people who play Roy to his maximum potential and Marth to his maximum potential, then Marth would easily win. Let me further emphasize the fact that Marth?s aerial game is so much better than Roy?s that he completely leaves Roy in the dust. If you and your opponent never use aerial attacks, then Roy wouldn?t be much worse, but once you face an opponent that does, you?ll lose badly. Note that this isn?t about what character YOU?RE good with, but what character is better if you use each one to his potential.

 

Now for the facts to back up what I?ve just said?

A moves

--------

Neutral A

Marth: 6%

Roy: 5%

 

Tilt Forward

Marth: 13%

Roy: 10%

 

Tilt Up

Marth: 12%

Roy: 8%

 

Tilt Down

Marth: 10%

Roy: 10%

 

Neutral Air

Marth: 13%

Roy: 11%

 

Forward Air

Marth: 13%

Roy: 8%

 

Back Air

Marth: 13%

Roy: 9%

 

Up Air

Marth: 13%

Roy: 6%

 

Down Air

Marth: 13%

Roy: 10%

 

Smash Forward

Marth: 20% uncharged, 27% charged

Roy: 20% uncharged, 27% charged

 

Smash Up

Marth: 18% uncharged, 24% charged

Roy: 16% uncharged, 22% charged

 

Smash Down

Marth: 16% uncharged, 21% charged

Roy: 21% uncharged, 28% charged

 

Who has stronger A moves?

Marth: 9

Roy: 1

 

B moves

--------

Neutral B

Marth: 7% uncharged, 28% charged

Roy: 6% uncharged, 50% charged

 

Forward B*

Marth: 4% 5% 10% 14%

Roy: 5% 6% 9% 11%

 

Up B

Marth: 13%

Roy: 13%

 

Down B

Marth: 7%

Roy: 1.5x attack countered

 

Who has stronger B moves?

Marth: 1

Roy: 2

Throws

-------

Forward Throw

Marth: 4%

Roy: 5%

 

Back Throw

Marth: 4%

Roy: 5%

 

Up Throw

Marth: 4%

Roy: 5%

 

Down Throw

Marth: 5%

Roy: 6%

 

Grab Attack

Marth: 3%

Roy: 3%

 

Who has stronger throws?

Marth: 0

Roy: 4

 

Who has stronger moves overall?

Marth: 10

Roy: 7

Well there you have it folks, no fanboyism, just pure stats you can get for yourselves in training mode.

 

* - Each number corresponds to ONLY the attack of the Forward B for its position. For example, the third hit of Marth's Forward B does 10%. Also note, this is only using Forward B repeatedly, other variations were not tested, but feel free to check it for yourselves.

 

Marth also has more knockback, in addition to dealing more damage. Roy has the larger sweet spot, but if you test out their non-sweet spot attacks, Marth still beats Roy out, easily.

The moves Roy wins in are throws, down smash, Flare Blade and counter.

 

Roy wins in throws by a whopping one percent, and Roy's grabbing and throwing game is actually a disadvantage to him, since Roy can't chain throw and has a worse grab range.

Counter comes out slower, thus making it less useful than Marth's. Not lasting that long isn't a disadvantage for Roy, since you can time that, but you can't get over the fact that his counter comes out slower.

Flare Blade, which is useless except for edgeguarding, is stronger, but it can be blocked, while Marth's Shield Breaker will take off at least 1/3 of your shield uncharged.

Roy's down smash does more damage, but has less knockback, and comes out slower.

 

And then there's the basic stuff.

We can conclude that:

 

Marth is stronger than Roy.

Marth is faster than Roy (in everything but falling speed)

Marth falls slower than Roy (making him harder to juggle)

Marth is heavier than Roy (making him harder to KO horizontally)

Marth can chain throw.

Marth has better grabs.

Marth's sweet spot may be better placed (weak attacks near him, strong attacks away to set up some interesting combos)

Marth has what is considered to be one of the best spikes in the game (aerial down+A), while Roy's sucks.

 

Marth wins in 10 and Roy wins in 7. It?s not that much of a difference

You fail to realize that 4 of those 7 come from a 1% difference in throws. Marth?s grab range is much longer, therefore giving him the better grabbing game anyway. If you look at the moves in terms of which is more useful instead of more powerful, you?d get Marth with 14 and Roy with 3. Not so close any more, is it?

 

Alright?I?m willing to suck up my pride and say that Marth is statically better and that I?ve thought Roy was better because of the reasons stated above?But how should I use Roy?

I don?t know much about Roy, but the little bit of information Mask-o-Sheik wrote should cover enough to give you a general idea:

 

?Hey guys, for those of you who don't know me I'm Mask-o-Sheik and although I don't use Roy as my main, I like playing around with him. I know a few things about him, but not too much. That's where the discussion kicks in, am I right? After the quasi-success of my other thread, I thought I'd encourage some more intelligent discussion here by starting a thread on the controversial Roy. Feel free to discuss any sentiments on Roy, whether comment, question, complaint, suggestion, strategy, analyses, etc.

 

What do I mean when I say Roy is a controversial character? He, more than any other character, represents the divide between high-level players and low-level players (the vast majority). Low-level players tend to consider Roy one of the best characters in the game, and are quite vocal about this. High-level players, on the other hand, know the disadvantages that bring the fiery swordsman into the middle of the rankings. The issue of Roy's prowess, particularly in comparison to Marth, leads to a lot of friction between the two ranks.

 

The ironic thing is, Roy is considered a top character by low-level players because of his overwhelming strength, and is considered middle by higher-level players because of his overwhelming *lack* of strength. Roy is actually almost a counter-image of what more people see him as. He's a fast, weak, combo-based character, not a heavy hitter!

 

Anyways, I won't go through an essay on what Roy is about. I'll do a very general overview...basically, Roy is best played when up close and dealing pressure (another irony - this leads to a faster playstyle than how Marth is usually played. Thus, the newbie belief that Roy is stronger and slower than Marth is at least partially untrue on several levels). He likes jumping in with short hop aerials and l-cancelling them into down tilts, grabs and forward B's initial attack. In terms of combos, Roy is all about the weakness of his aerials - he l-cancels them and is still in range to use some of his ground attacks (or short hop into another aerial). Down tilt is also one of the best launchers in the game and leads into everything from grabs to aerials to forward smash (!!) at some damage. Of course, the faster the opponent falls, the more deadly the attack is . For the most part though, Roy's best chance is a medium knockback attack (like an uncharged Flare Blade) to knock the foe off the edge and finish by edgeguarding.

 

In terms of killing, Roy is pretty lacking. Going for the lucky forward smash can net you kills at as low as about 40%, but it's a risky business and you'll often wind up losing more than you would've gained by throwing around forward smashes indiscriminately. The third hit on his forward B combo is also one of Roy's main killers, and is a little easier to land. He has some leadins to Forward Smash, by the way, but they're hard to promise (back throw never seems to work when you want it to). Unfortunately, edge-guarding is kind of tough for Roy and he'll have trouble keeping opponents from reaching the edge if their name is not Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon or Ganondorf. Unless I'm not privy to Roy's edge-guarding secrets . Roy can try to pop up the opponent with down tilt and follow with uncharged Flare Blade or some other attack, or he can try to Forward Smash the edge of the stage. Sometimes through edgehogging you can force them on-stage for a forward smash - take full advantage of this!?

 

Since Marth?s play style differs so much from Roy?s, how should I play Marth?

In case you?ve read this and have decided to switch to Marth, you?re probably wondering how to use him, since spamming smashes whenever you get the chance won?t win you matches.

 

Marth?s strategy revolves greatly around his aerial game, and getting the sweet-spot hit when you need to. Unlike Roy, Marth has the ability to juggle using short hop, fast falled, l-canceled (shffl, for short) aerials or a double short hop (sh) forward A while in the air (fair). At lower percents Marth?s aerial attacks have major combo potential, being able to combo from 0 to death, but you have to be careful when using Marth and make sure you combo into your forward smash as soon as you know it will kill, because after your opponent gets above 100% or so it becomes incredibly hard, if not impossible, to combo aerial attacks because they knock the opponent back too far. In the situation that ever happens the best way would be to use a neutral A while in the air (nair) or a forward tilt to hit your opponent off the stage and edgeguard from there. Like I said, throwing around forward smashes whenever you get the chance will get you killed, so avoid using it unless you combo into it.

 

Marth has arguably the best grab game in SSBM, as well. He has the 4th longest grab range behind Samus, Link, and Young Link, but he doesn?t have the lag that comes with throwing the grappling hook/hookshot out. This means you must shield grab with Marth. He can shield grab after almost every physical attack in the game, so use if often. A back/forward throw by can lead into a tippered (sweet-spotted) forward smash at lower percents allowing Marth to get some low percent kills, or an upthrow can lead to an easy tipper against a fast faller like Fox or Falco. At lower percents Marth can continuously grab-upthrow Fox and Falco from about 0-35%. This is called a chain throw, and is essential to win against the space animals.

 

So why did Hal make Marth better than Roy in every aspect of the game?

The best possibility for this is that Hal didn?t make the game with 1v1 with no items in mind. Marth is better in 1v1 matches, but since Roy has a bigger sweetspot, he might be better in a free for all match. Marth?s sweetspot is considerably smaller than Roy?s ? This doesn?t make a difference in 1v1, but in FFA you aren?t going to see a Marth hit two people at the same time with the sweetspot, while it?s relatively easy for Roy.

 

That?s about it. If you?re going to make an argument, make sure I haven?t already addressed the issue in my post.

[[i]_R_Crazy_Idiot 0]

If you managed to research all that by yourself, I REALLY feel sorry for you.

[Shengeta 0]

I've have won 12 tournaments on Smah Bros. I used to use Captain falcon 6 years ago on the original, and I got really cheap. Then when melee came out I pretty much switched to Fin because I always liked him, I've been a fan of the Fire Emblem games for a long time. By the way for the n00bs, Fin is Marth's real name.and yes smash brothers is not considered a fighting game, and you can't "disagree" with that, because it is considered a party game and that is a fact, not an opinion. I guess to the gaming magazines and companies, a fighting game has to be close side-screen 1 on 1 fighting pretty much. Running around a big board and being able to use all those falling items makes it a "party game."Oh well. Most characters are leveled out except Fox. Fox is for n00bs. I won those tournaments with captain falcon and then with marth, and you know what, second place and many places lower all used Fox. Easy to use strong character.

[Red Alert 0]

Yes...I'm sure people travel halfway across the world to play a "party game" for thousands of dollars. Just because you don't know how to play advanced smash doesn't mean it's a party game. And...how is Fox a noob character? With the fastest attack in the game, a 4 frame jump, and a slew of infinite combos, he's the hardest character to master.Of course, I wouldn't expect you to know any of this because you're to close-minded to accept anything past the "party game" image.

[Mr Zoidberg 0]

Hey now, let's be nice.I see your point in how Roy isn't as good as Marth...but for most people who just casual play it and DON'T over analyze the game, they probably will play better as Roy then they would Marth. I don't go o the tournaments and I don't give a rats-*bottom* about the stats and the tiers and the "Balanced stages no item matches." It's Super Smash Bros for christ sakes. You select a Nintendo character and beat the pulp out of other Nintendo characters for the sole purpose of having fun. Seriously, what's the point of percentage stats and tiers and all that hoopla? It's just taking the fun out of the game and making it more of a science project then a video game.If I pick Marth or Kirby and someone else picks Bowser or DK, I don't look at how slow their characters are and what moves I should use to my advantage. I run at them, and beat the hell out of them. If they whack me first, then I go from there. I don't care if I win or lose, I HAVE FUN.That's what the game is about. Having fun. Not being the best. If they wanted it to be about that, then they'd have taken out alot of the stages and items...along with many of the modes of play. They'd have put it on XBOX, given each character a gun and set it in the future and called it "Halo."Same with posting on forums. I don't want to fight over whether or not it's a party game or a fighting game. I believe it's a party game. I'm not stating it as a fact, but an opinion. Let's be nice here and get rid of the "It's a fact, not an opinion" statements along with the "You can't get it past your tiny mind that it's not a party game" comments. *BLEEP* like this is what made me leave GameFAQs. Too many damn arguements and not enough 2-sided discussion.

[Red Alert 0]

There are people who's idea of having fun is just playing the game...There are other people who's idea of having fun is winning the game.I don't really mind either, but when someone says that it's just a party game and nothing else, I get a little PO'ed >_>

[galexcd 0]

I just played red alert in ssbm, he pwned me.

[Mr Zoidberg 0]

There are people who's idea of having fun is just playing the game...

There are other people who's idea of having fun is winning the game.

 

I don't really mind either, but when someone says that it's just a party game and nothing else, I get a little PO'ed >_>

191783[/snapback]

Yeah, which is why I went after whats-his-face too. =P

 

I may have came off a little rude at some points, but SSBM is STILL a fighting game...I just think it's more party game based. =)

 

Hell, winning doesn't matter to me. It could be a Sudden Death Everything On The Line match, and if I lost, I'd laugh...especially if I tried something that doesn't work (like trying to jump over a charging Marth Smash with Kirby).

 

Actually, I remember one time where during a Sudden Death match, bom-ombs started to fall out of the air. They scared the hell out of me, mainly because I was Kirby and in mid-flight when it happened. BOOM GONE BYE. >XD

[E-Sector 0]

Soon Super Smash bros 3 will lunch To the revolution system!I hope the following characters will be added:Koopa troopaKoopa paratroopaWarioWaluigiDaisyBalloon-FighterIkarusDeku-linkDaruniaMikauImpaVaatiOrcaQuillShadow Link/Dark Link?Skullkid med Majoras maskNabooruDarmaniSamus Aran i Dark o Light suitKing DededeKrystalPeppy HareSlippy ToadDiddy kong (alla andra Kongs)LyndisEliwoodHectorEirikaEphraimToadSomewhone more from F-ZeroMore Pokemon, or is that nessecery?(Please write down more characters you hope to be added )

Notice from BuffaloHELP:

Stay within the topic. Do no hijack the thread. And when you list characters this many, make sure you use the QUOTE tag.

Edited October 8, 2005 by BuffaloHELP (see edit history)

[Red Alert 0]

Do you see the thread title? It says "Super Smash Bros Melee", so let's try to keep the SSBR opinions/data to another thread, mkay?

[E-Sector 0]

Ok, sorry, but I cant edit my post! I will start a new thread.

[iGuest 3]

Replying to Red Alert My Favorite Character is Roy. He's got a great charge up attack, so if you get into a place like that little clove at the bottom of Hyrule Castle, when someone comes down, hit them, and then charge up while they're getting up. Also his attack deals fire damage to the enemy.My second fav is Link. I like him because he has ranged, and he's got like hundreds of weapons it seems. It just makes me feel more secure and stronger personally.One last thing, Not related at all with the topic, Although it does relate to SSB:M. You normally give fruitcakes to people you don't like right? Well, you definatelly wouldn't want to give one to you enemy in this game. -reply by Solar Flarer