European Union Have an opinion about the european union/europe/referendum?

[Joannespw 0]

Anyone have an opinion about the european union and where you believe it should be going? (I am very curoious what non european think as well). Now is the time to talk about it! the dutch and the french have said no to the european constitution, european federalism has thus been declared dead? I would like to have a strong united and working europe where countries economies benifit each other and relations are good. Many people who were alive during the cold war are worried that the european union will crumble and we will all start fighting again what do you think? I belive that europe will function but that a number of things have to change for it to function more effectively. the goal of the european union should be change that benifits all the member states as well topics that enourage innovation accross europe in all fields.

[dontmaimyourself 0]

I would also like to see a united Europe, however there are a few things I am opposed to, firstly I do not agree with a unified currancy especially one that is as weak as the Euro is currently, and I would also like to see less interference from Brussles (unless it is to change one of the many incredibally bent laws we have In England). Ok so I am the first to admit I have very little knowledge of the workings of the European Union, however I do feel this is in part down to burocracy, and I also feel that alot of others feel this way and said no simply through ignorance, I mean I haven't even seen a copy of European Constitution. It is my opinion that in order for the EU to succed the leaders need to be more 'in touch' with reality, and would it be to much to ask for some sort of profile on the leaders to enlighted us 'little people'. While I do not in theory oppose the EU, I would like to see it ran differently. But thats just my opinion, and hey what do I know about politics.

[Joannespw 0]

I do not agree with a unified currancy especially one that is as weak as the Euro is currently, and I would also like to see less interference from Brussles (unless it is to change one of the many incredibally bent laws we have In England). Ok so I am the first to admit I have very little knowledge of the workings of the European Union, however I do feel this is in part down to burocracy, and I also feel that alot of others feel this way and said no simply through ignorance, I mean I haven't even seen a copy of European Constitution. It is my opinion that in order for the EU to succed the leaders need to be more 'in touch' with reality, and would it be to much to ask for some sort of profile on the leaders to enlighted us 'little people'. While I do not in theory oppose the EU, I would like to see it ran differently. But thats just my opinion, and hey what do I know about politics.

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"I do not agree with a unified currancy especially one that is as weak as the Euro is currently"

 

Why is that you do not agree with the currency? can you be more specific on what points you feel it falls short. Because as a traveller I am all for one euro, the little person wins al round. Also as a union we are much stronger with the common currency. Did you know that all the currencies are linked together anyway? If the pound moves then the euro moves, if the euro moves then the pound moves. so you might as well have the euro anyway, because your currency has been linked to it for ages already!!!

 

 

"I would also like to see less interference from Brussles "

 

I am sorry to day that this is really up to you, no member state has to accept anything from brussels except if it is law. No country can force another do do anything. For example there is a law banning snuff in europe. but the crazy swedes are not going to ban it in thier own country because too many people value it. So you see that no country has to accept anything that comes from brussels and nothing if forced on people. the fact that much is decided in brussels is in fact nice because it is a sign that all the countries are agreeing on things!!!

 

"I have very little knowledge of the workings of the European Union, however I do feel this is in part down to burocracy"

 

Well why do you feel this comes down to bureacracy? I think people expect too much of a 'free lunch' from thier democracies, its the states fault its the states fault! The fact of the matter is that the EU works really really hard to put all the information out there for its citizens to read about. The Eu website is one of the best I have seen and most transpartent. There is also a toll free number that people can call from anywhere in europe so they can get information, as well an commision and parliament information offices in each member state where you can go, or call to get all the information you want.

 

this is a point that frustrates me very much because I believe that citizens should be active in informing themselves, especialy when the information is out there. The Eu is in fact completely reliant on the member states to actively market the EU because it is not allowed to do itself! so if there is any ignorance about the EU one van only blame oneself and thier own government.

 

 

Lastly I would like to say that I mean no offence by taking this line, I completely understand your concerns and worries, I too would like to seee leaders that are more in touch with reality and I think it is great that the Eu constitution has been rejected because I hope that it will send a very clear message to our leaders. The sad part is that we elected them. the only sad part about having the constitution rejected is that there was a clause in there that would have allowed us to elect a president as well as reject Eu legistlation as european people! that I do mourn.

[HoRuS 0]

Hmmm I myself was one of the people who voted no with the referendum in Holland. Let me explain:
First of all, they left many agreements out for the public and only showed the good part of the constitution.
If they got trough with it most prices will rise even more then they allready did... For example, the price of only 1 bread before the Euro was 1,90 guilders, 1 Euro is 2,20 guilders so the price now should be around 0,90 right? No! Now we pay 1,70 for the same thing and everything changed like that, but salaries are cut in half... The Euro is a big rip off for many people, and with their constitution they were planning to rise those prices even more.

Healthcare... With the constitution healthcare would rise up to 100,- a month, twice as much as we pay now, for some even more.

Freedom of speech? In Belgium, European HQ, the government voted for the people with yes... No votes were held there.

Under the laws of the EU national sovereignty exists no more. The "Treaty till establishment of a Constitution for Europe" that now is proposed, is in essence an attempt to get around democratic procedures thanks to a pun. The treaty revises national constitutions thanks to the fact that it above that laws stands.
The European countries as we now know, have their destination as nations lost, and become official no longer "country" named, but "state" (on a manner that looks like the United States of America). Under the European law its it the provinces and regions that become "land" will named. On term, the target is to get rid of this national identities and with that also the capacity of a Population to be solidary on ideological national basis, as well as the capacity till resistance that that it brings along.

On the one hand the power gets decentralized with the new constitution, but for the most important affairs the power is centralized. And thanks to the proposed treaty the government of the EU has in any case the possibility to intervene on which territory they want, thanks to article I-11, paragraph 3, the EU-government can act as she finds that the acting from a member country is "not sufficient".

Because of the decentralized/centralized powers structure it will be extrme difficult for the population to organize themselves against decisions made by the European Parliament. Also is spoken in this treaty about the possibility to call back the Eurpean Comission with a million signatures,  this Comission has no obligation to give in to this so it only goes "heard".

Some example of the taking away of freedoms is given by article II-66, "The law on freedom and safety", wich thanks to an addendum, to which in the article not immediately are referred, (only mentioned in Title II, Article 6), will make it possible to set numerous peoples in custody,
-as minor, in order to "see to [their] education",
-persons who do not accept to be vaccinated becuase they find it useless  or even dangerous(even as this criticism perfectly founded is, but not accepted through conventional science that heavily corrupted is through the pharmaceutical industry),
-"mind ill persons" (what in by far the most cases based will be on complete arbitrary and scientific unfunded principles),
-persons who are alcoholics or addicted to drugs, and even homeless people, wich will come even more due to a hard nascent economic climate which the results are of this treaty.
Add to that it will be allowed for prisoners to do work without financial compensation, in other words as slave (see the addendum by article II-65, to know end deed, Title I, Article 5) and we have a truly "Gulag nightmare" scenario...

And on top of this, our pm told on TV he maybe will go trough with this contitution, no matter how many people are againt it.

Just my 2 cents... well 2 euro's

[brainless 0]

And on top of this, our pm told on TV he maybe will go trough with this contitution, no matter how many people are againt it.

it's not only your heads of state ... sorry to say that :/

here are my favorite quotes on the EU constitution from our chancellor: "there's no other option than voting in favor of this treaty"; "we spent so much time working out this treaty, I don't think that we should have too close a look at the one or other sentence now that we're supposed to vote on it" (so we're supposed to agree with it before we have a look?)...

... well, I'm not strictly against an united europe - but I'm definitely against a europe with a constitution which is supposed to protect corporations more than the people ('cause that's what a neoliberal economy does ... if you're too lazy to search for an earlier post on this topic by me, I'll search and post a link...)

[mizako 0]

Hi,I am spanish. Spain was the only country that until now in public consult voted yes to the constitution referendum. It is a pity that France and Holland voted No. They are almost the parent of the union and they do not want to go ahead. I think the growing of Europe is stopped with this new politicians that we have. The last generation of politician were in way or in other pushed with the II WW or by national civil wars. They sit together and negocitaded this European idea. They were able to make concesions not like now that the politicians wait for the end of the European congress to tell their televisions what they achieved. Now we do not have these politicians anymore. The problem is not that some of the members do not agree with the Europe's idea, the problem is that this idea does not exist between the politician class.

[Joannespw 0]

Hmmm I myself was one of the people who voted no with the referendum in Holland. Let me explain:

First of all, they left many agreements out for the public and only showed the good part of the constitution.

If they got trough with it most prices will rise even more then they allready did... For example, the price of only 1 bread before the Euro was 1,90 guilders, 1 Euro is 2,20 guilders so the price now should be around 0,90 right? No! Now we pay 1,70 for the same thing and everything changed like that, but salaries are cut in half... The Euro is a big rip off for many people, and with their constitution they were planning to rise those prices even more.

 

Healthcare... With the constitution healthcare would rise up to 100,- a month, twice as much as we pay now, for some even more.

 

Freedom of speech? In Belgium, European HQ, the government voted for the people with yes... No votes were held there.

And on top of this, our pm told on TV he maybe will go trough with this contitution, no matter how many people are againt it.

 

Just my 2 cents... well 2 euro's

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I am dutch, and also very sorry that my country said no. From what horus says its clear that the debate was not only about the constitution but more about the european enlargement, the euro and local politics. Don't get me wrong, I think that the way that the debate was being run was appauling.

 

Horus, one thing you should realise is that the no campaign treid puttting the constitution in a negative light and the yes campaign treid putting it in a positive light that was thier job. I think the yes campaign in nl should have been better at adressing the no compaigns concerns. obviously they did not.

 

A number of things must be made clear in regards to the three 'concerns'i mentioned earlier if there is going to be a sensible debate about this topic

 

1. Local buisness in the netherlands took advantage of the euro and invreased prices, as a result it seemed that it was due to the euro. But really it was due to the government not being strict enough in controling the price mechacnisms.

 

The euro in fact is good for europe economicaly and there is no way that you can argue in economic terms that the implementation fot he euro would lead directly to a price increase. you can blame a) the greeedy buisnesses (e.g. the horeca) and your own governments for that.

 

2. The qoute you gave is rather weak. Don't believe everything you read. the 'limitations of freedom'that are mentioned in that quote are also ones that you will find in any normal western democratic government (e.g. the right to enforce schooling is something very normal). + they are also things that you will find in any government that is actively adderssing the threath of terrorism. In the netherlands we have laws like this as well, the uk has them, france has them, germany etc. So there is no more than strange limitations of freedom int he constitution thats just crazy. if anything - i am repeating myself in this discusion - by giving citizens the right to 'throw out' eu legislation it is giving more power to the people.

 

3. 'Healthcare'is not an issue of the constitution and you are confused on this point. it is a choice - and an issue - of the local government. there are very other reasons why health care is going to be become more expensive in the netherlands. mainly the innefficiency of the system is to blame as well as lazy polititians who need to get down to buisness and stop wasting time.

 

 

People forget that the Eu cobnstitution is also a compromise between the right and the left. no one will get everythingt hat they want from the constitution. I wish people would just have looked to make sure that what was most important to them was in the constitution. But I guess I live in an ideal world. + I also believe that we should have had a vote all at once.

[HoRuS 0]

lol gotta love these discussions

 

Horus, one thing you should realise is that the no campaign treid puttting the constitution in a negative light and the yes campaign treid putting it in a positive light that was thier job. I think the yes campaign in nl should have been better at adressing the no compaigns concerns. obviously they did not.

Well the constitution is good, for the rich... For people who ain't that lucky it's just a living hell. They should tell the truth more and publish all chapters and articles.

 

2. The qoute you gave is rather weak. Don't believe everything you read. the 'limitations of freedom'that are mentioned in that quote are also ones that you will find in any normal western democratic government (e.g. the right to enforce schooling is something very normal). + they are also things that you will find in any government that is actively adderssing the threath of terrorism. In the netherlands we have laws like this as well, the uk has them, france has them, germany etc. So there is no more than strange limitations of freedom int he constitution thats just crazy. if anything - i am repeating myself in this discusion - by giving citizens the right to 'throw out' eu legislation it is giving more power to the people

Rather weak? It is written in the constitution. How can you force children to learn by taking them away from their parents? This is just production of criminals + Terrorism is just a fictional thing governments made up to rule people with fear.

 

3. 'Healthcare'is not an issue of the constitution and you are confused on this point. it is a choice - and an issue - of the local government. there are very other reasons why health care is going to be become more expensive in the netherlands. mainly the innefficiency of the system is to blame as well as lazy polititians who need to get down to buisness and stop wasting time.

If it's not an issue of the contitution, why did they put a penalty after the no-voting of ?5000,- for every person who can't afford healthcare anymore?

[Guevara 0]

Europa has the same coins but don't have the same law.Stupid.....