Weak Individuals

[webguide 0]

I have noticed that there is a growing trend towards people blameing their own failings on society. Whether these people are alcoholics, gamblers or even killers. Everything is always someone elses fault. The above things I mentioned are not illnesses but weaknesses and people just dont seem to understand the difference. Has anyone else noticed this?

[adamsgi 0]

I half agree with you webguide, but definitely half disagree too.Society seems to be blamed for a lot of things nowadays, when it is quite obviously the fault of the individual. Howeve, I do disagree when you say things such as alcoholism and gambling aren't illnesses. I see your point in one resepct, I would rather suffer from alcoholism than TB, but nevertheless, they are still illnesses, albeit mental or maybe even social.Ultimately, everyone has a choice. They can either take responsibility for their own life and actions, in which case they can pretty much create their own destiny, or they can sit and whinge that society owes them and wait the rest of their life for society to change. The compensation culture that we see has grown from this. If I walk up the street and trip over, why should the government have to pay me compensation when I wasn't watching where I was going? It was my own fault. People need to start taking the blame. They will be surprised at how liberating it is.

[talse 0]

while everyone may have a choice adam, the nature of that choice and the knowledge one has reflects their society. if a black person has been taught all their life that they are supposed to talk a certain way, live a certain way, and commit crime a certain way, your gonna get incarceration rates that excede college entrance rates. and that just ain't right.for more observation on the sociological effects on people, check out the movie fight club from your local library, if you have one (god, i can't beleive i had to make that stipulation, people need to move to iowa city.)

[avalon1405241471 0]

I see alot of these live examples everyday.It is sad to see people who can not live up to the truth.Wanting to help them to overcome it by helping to see the light but oftenly end up being injured by them instead. I will oftenly became their new targetted victim.So Sad!

[banjosforpeace 0]

I have noticed that there is a growing trend towards people blameing their own failings on society. Whether these people are alcoholics, gamblers or even killers. Everything is always someone elses fault. The above things I mentioned are not illnesses but weaknesses and people just dont seem to understand the difference.  Has anyone else noticed this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think separating "society" from "culture" is in order here. Society is only a population of individuals. In theory, these individuals move around like atoms in a molecule - some pull close together, some push each other away. The ideas and actions of indivduals can influence or repel another individual.

 

Sometimes the ideas and actions can influence or repel a number of individuals at once. A culture is the retaining or repetition of the ideas and actions of a society over time. This would be laying the foundation of a culture.

 

I make the distiction because a population can be called a society and share a dominant culture. Then their are smaller societies within that larger population, each of whom identify themselves through cultural differences. Within those smaller societies, there can several levels of even smaller societies (better identified as communities) with their own cultural practicies.

 

As an example, I belong to a society in the good ol' US of A and we theoretically share a dominant culture. However, The overall population is divided into smaller societies that interpret elements of the dominant culture differently. Inside the smaller societies, there are major differences in how to go about establishing these cultural differences as norms within population. Inside those even smaller societies there are differences that create sub-groups divided by geography, religion, ethnicity, income, age, gender, etc.

 

Okay, I've gone a long way with this, but there is a point. Society dictates culture. If society demands a change within the culture, change will gradually occur. If society ignores the ideas and actions of their culture, existing ideas and actions will take a stronger hold. Case in point: If a society accepts a degree of violence within the culture, the violence will continue and it become part of the culture. If it rejects ALL violence, reducing violence will become part of the culture. If society accepts or rejects gambling, alcohol, and other things that tend to fall under the category of addiction without addressing that they are cultural, AS WELL AS being a matter of personal responsibility, the only result is a newly created societal division and not a cultural norm that is acceptable to society.

 

Geez, I think I wore myself out on that one.

[MajesticTreeFrog 0]

What is often missed is the nature of the choice itself. If a person is poor, uneducated, etc, then they do not have much of a future in 'society'. On the other hand, becoming a drug dealer or a hired gun pays well AND gets them up higher on a social ladder, just not the 'standard' social ladder. It should be no surprise to people who believe in free markets and 'rational self interest' that these people choose these professions. They can also make the exact claim, "I am not doing anything wrong, these people CHOOSE to buy drugs from me. It is their problem". And they would be right, to the same extent that I think webguide is right.The problem, as I see it is that we seek to put the blame on *single* source. We want to pretend things are unrelated or not dependent or conditional on other things. But this is not the case. All things are conditional and shaped by other things, in this case society and the individual shape each other.So, yes, the individual is responsible for making that decision. But, society is responsible for making that decision possible/attractive.This extends to things like gambling and such. Casinos and even our culture right now(due to world series of poker and such) try very hard to make gambling seem fun, cool, and a good idea. In casinos, they do everything they can to get people in the doors and then find ways to keep them inside and spending money. They work VERY hard to feed the possibilities of addiction to gambling.And so on with alcohol. We have a culture that values drinking. I see beer ads on TV. I notice that at every party I go to, there is a TON of alcohol. Worse, many times people go just to get drunk, because that is the only way they know to 'chill out' or relax. They have not been taught any alternatives, and alcohol is tied to the joys of friendship and fun. Once again, the conditions for the start of abuse have been set, so it shouldn't be surprising when it eventually happens.So yes, People have a choice. On the other hand, so does everyone else when they allow that choice to be made. And a whole bunch of choices before that regarding setting up the conditions where the choice to drink or to gamble are made.

[webguide 0]

while everyone may have a choice adam, the nature of that choice and the knowledge one has reflects their society. if a black person has been taught all their life that they are supposed to talk a certain way, live a certain way, and commit crime a certain way, your gonna get incarceration rates that excede college entrance rates. and that just ain't right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats just an excuse. I'm part of a small minority and know that people perceive me in a certain way, the only way to fix that is by breaking the streotype. If people don't want to thats fine as long as they don't whine about it being everyones fault but their own. Blaming other people has become an intergral part of america which has allowed it to become the most litigous country on earth.

[firedoor 0]

we had a program on a few weeks ago called "the new Ten commandments" and i think number 2 was "take responsability for your own actions. WE live in a sociiety where when something goes wrong, we can blame someone esle even if they were not there. If the goverment was not monitoring every single paving slab to make sure that no cracks appeared then if someone tripped and fell, they could sue the goverment. When in fact the person should have been loooking where they were going. I find people like this perfetic. Fopr every accident that happens millions of man hours goes into preventing maybe a 1000 others from ever happening. If someone steals something, they did it for there own reasons not societies.

[excellen 0]

Im so SICK AND TIRED of all the rediculous lawsuits happening these days! Recently here in Australia some guy dived into the ocean (from the beach, not a pontoon or jetty), hit his head on a sandbar and broke his neck. The unfortunate partr is that he survived..., and sued the local counsil for millions. Granted, he was swimming between the flags, but since when is it the job of a lifeguard to warn people of sandbars? And why is the counsil resposible if a sandbar is at a beach???? Its Absurd! Ang get this: many other counisly cannot afford the public liability insurance to protect themselves from this happening agfain, so swimming will be BANNED at many beaches! Things like that make me so angry!!! Its time people start taking responsibilty for themselves.

[MajesticTreeFrog 0]

I think this is more a problem with the legal system than with 'weak individuals'. Stupidity shouldn't be rewarded like this.

[agentmax 0]

So younger generations need role models that have honor and admit their shortcomings. People that can be imitated even by children. Dignity is usually contagious in teens. A classroom may be silent after a teacher yells, trying to find 'who did it', but when someone speaks up many more start also, to get the whole truth across. Responsibility is better than guilt, and far better than taking legal action against the person who made them feel guilty. That's just sick, to make it the innocent's fault... I suppose eventually one would become desensitized to what one's 'conscience' had to say.

[adamsgi 0]

Sorry all - I made quite a sweeping generalisation in my last post - I just wanted to clarify a few things and make some more comments.

Every moment of every day people have a choice to make. Whether to eat, drink, go out, stay in, go to work, call in sick etc. Then there are other choices like whether to improve your lot by education, getting a job etc.

talse Posted Mar 1 2005, 04:30 AM   while everyone may have a choice adam, the nature of that choice and the knowledge one has reflects their society. if a black person has been taught all their life that they are supposed to talk a certain way, live a certain way, and commit crime a certain way, your gonna get incarceration rates that excede college entrance rates. and that just ain't right.

I agree with this sentiment, however, still stand by the fact that you can choose to listen to it or not, and choose to live your life by it or not. I am repeatedly told that being gay isn't normal and I should be straight, however, I choose to ignore it because I know it is rubbish.

MajesticTreeFrog Posted Yesterday, 10:27 PM   I think this is more a problem with the legal system than with 'weak individuals'. Stupidity shouldn't be rewarded like this.

I agree with this comment too. However, laws such as this give "weak individuals" someone else to blame when things go wrong. For example, if my grandfather was in hospital and needed a life saving operation, and there was complications resulting in my grandfather dying, I can in theory sue the hospital for negligence and failure to save his life. This in itself is absurd. Also, when it is snowing, I can walk outside a shop, slip on the snow and hurt myself, and it is either the council's or the shop's fault for not gritting the pathway. Not my fault for not walking carefully, or not going out because the was snow on the ground.

Sorry, losing my thread a bit..... the current legal situation gives weak individuals an easy-option, rather than admitting their own failings. If you can blame someone else, you do not have to face up to the fact that you can do things wrong.

However, it is not only weak individuals who do this and unfortunately this type of behaviour is on the increase, to the severe detriment of society as a whole.

[banjosforpeace 0]

we had a program on a few weeks ago called "the new Ten commandments" and i think number 2 was "take responsability for your own actions. WE live in a sociiety where when something goes wrong, we can blame someone esle even if they were not there. If the goverment was not monitoring every single paving slab to make sure that no cracks appeared then if someone tripped and fell, they could sue the goverment. When in fact the person should have been loooking where they were going. I find people like this perfetic. Fopr every accident that happens millions of man hours goes into preventing maybe a 1000 others from ever happening. If someone steals something, they did it for there own reasons not societies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Im so SICK AND TIRED of all the rediculous lawsuits happening these days! Recently here in Australia some guy dived into the ocean (from the beach, not a pontoon or jetty), hit his head on a sandbar and broke his neck. The unfortunate partr is that he survived..., and sued the local counsil for millions. Granted, he was swimming between the flags, but since when is it the job of a lifeguard to warn people of sandbars? And why is the counsil resposible if a sandbar is at a beach???? Its Absurd! Ang get this: many other counisly cannot afford the public liability insurance to protect themselves from this happening agfain, so swimming will be BANNED at many beaches! Things like that make me so angry!!! Its time people start taking responsibilty for themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm a little stunned that the people who sue for stupid things are getting all of the blame. I don't know of a single case where a plaintiff walked into a courtroom without some sleazy lawyer by their side doing all of the dirty work. It isn't the plaintiff that went to law school and figured out how to game the system. Without the enabler to find the leagal loopholes, the person trying to collect cash for what appears to be their own dumbness would never get a penny. Those lawyers are doing the deed to get a chunk of the cash. They encourage the litigous behavior.

 

That being said, there is another side to this suing thing. We all get up in arms about the guy breaking his neck on the sandbar or the woman who won millions from McDonald's when she spilled coffee in her lap. Our instinct is to say, "these lawsuits are a waste of time and money. Those people are just looking for a hand-out. We need to change the system." Well these examples of absurdity make up only a small fraction of civil lawsuits. If a manufacturing plant knowingly dumped their toxic sludge near your home and took no action to prevent it from getting into your drinking water making your entire family sick, you would want to punish them... and rightfully so. Well the laws that allow you to punish the dumper are many of the same the same ones that apply the McDonald's coffee lady.

 

When you hear Dubya and the Republicans talk about "tort reform" they are focused solely on protecting corporations from class action and civil suits. Read their tort reform proposals and you will see. They absolutely do not want to restrict a corporations ability to sue a person or another corporation. They want to limit and restrict individual's rights to sue in any form - even in cases you may agree with. Sure some suits against corporations are truly unwarranted, but others are not. The problem is not directly with the law, though silly loopholes should be closed. The problem is also not directly society's fault, because the law is more complex than that. It is a matter of personal responsibility, but in these cases you must identify several individuals at multiple levels, not just label one person or group as the cause.

 

I recall Randall from Clerks discussing how title does not dictate behavior. I find this to be true. If you are a cop, does that mean you are inherently a good person? Of course not, but the majority of cops would likely be. If you are a lawyer, does that make you inherently bad? No way, beacuse not all lawyers are ambulance chasers. If you are a CEO, does that make you a good businessman? Ask the employees at Enron, Worldcom, Tyco, Global Crossing, Xerox, and Adelphia. If you are a citizen of a country are you exactly like the rest of your fellow citizens?

 

My point is that maybe we should ammend the title of this thread to: Weak Individuals... and The Corrupt Individuals Who Prey Upon Them while Convincing Everyone That It Is Society's Fault.

[Soleq 0]

I'd sort of sidestep the current conversation and say that I'd suggest the roots to this problem lie not in society's influence, but on basic human behaviorism. It's always easier to blame the other person. That's part of self-preservation, which is basically programmed into us all. You can find this with a corrupt CEO of a Fortune 500 company (who says "I didn't do it, I didn't know about it, I'm innocent") to a 2 year old who ate a cookie when he wasn't supposted to. Sure, society most likely plays a strong part in influencing more complex behaviors (such as alcoholism, etc), but when caught, anyone will do anything to get out of it.

[webguide 0]

Im so SICK AND TIRED of all the rediculous lawsuits happening these days! Recently here in Australia some guy dived into the ocean (from the beach, not a pontoon or jetty), hit his head on a sandbar and broke his neck. The unfortunate partr is that he survived..., and sued the local counsil for millions. Granted, he was swimming between the flags, but since when is it the job of a lifeguard to warn people of sandbars? And why is the counsil resposible if a sandbar is at a beach???? Its Absurd! Ang get this: many other counisly cannot afford the public liability insurance to protect themselves from this happening agfain, so swimming will be BANNED at many beaches! Things like that make me so angry!!! Its time people start taking responsibilty for themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I couldn't agree more, while this is an extreame case it is a fact that America is the most litigious society on earth and this is a growing problem. Many middle eastern countries also have this weak mentality, they blame all their problems on the west, instead of religous ignorance and then decide to kill thousands based upon their perceptions.