Christian Theism

[MajesticTreeFrog 0]

Just a question for all the many many christians out there. How exactly are your beliefs constructed? For instance, I know many christians believe homosexuality is wrong due to passages in the bible, but the bible also outlaws all sorts of things (like shaving your beard) that nobody mentions. Is there a reason for this? Which parts are important and which aren't?

[szupie 0]

Shaving your beard? ... I have a question too: do christians believe in dinosaurs? Is it possible that they are made on the 5th day (when the animals were made?), but had gotten extinct by the 6th day? Also, aren't these days only days according to god, but maybe a very long time according to humans? I'm curious.

[friso 0]

wel, check out leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, it's pretty clear there..obviously the killing part doesn't count anymore, because that would be against any law. christians who really are homosexual can't do anything about it ofcourse, but they can't have sex i think... 'tis but my humble opinion

[egbert 0]

Even without the bible it's obvious homosexuality it
1. Immoral
2. Gross
3. Evil

The bible makes it crystal clear. Anyway, I think when Jesus came he did away with some of the old customs and rules... like people can eat unclean food (pigs, oysters) now, and maybe shaving a beard is included in that too?

christians who really are homosexual can't do anything about it ofcourse, but they can't have sex i think...

I don't really understand what that meant butthey certainly can do something about it: stop.

[MajesticTreeFrog 0]

Even without the bible it's obvious homosexuality it

1. Immoral

2. Gross

3. Evil

 

The bible makes it crystal clear. Anyway, I think when Jesus came he did away with some of the old customs and rules... like people can eat unclean food (pigs, oysters) now, and maybe shaving a beard is included in that too?

I don't really understand what that meant but

they certainly can do something about it: stop.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wait, how is homosexuality obviously any more or less immoral gross or evil than heterosexuality?

 

Does the bible make it crystal clear? By your own post it appears you yourself don't have a solid handle on exactly what is allowed.

[agentmax 0]

Homosexuality is accepted if your willing to be called immoral gross and evil alot; as long as your relationship doesn't go into bed.I recall Jesus saying that all those hundreds of rules like only eating clean meat (and shaving your beard) are unneccessary.Also, the bible was never meant to be historically accurate, so there is no way to figure dinosaurs into it. Case and point: the story of the ten commandments we know involves mountains and a golden calf. However the story changed to whomever it was told to, e.g. if you don't know what a mountain is because you live in a desert, the storyteller would have said, 'he came out of a sandstorm'. It changes so many times only the moral of the stories matter, and there's not really anyway to put science against it.

[MajesticTreeFrog 0]

Homosexuality is accepted if your willing to be called immoral gross and evil alot; as long as your relationship doesn't go into bed.

I recall Jesus saying that all those hundreds of rules like only eating clean meat (and shaving your beard) are unneccessary.

Also, the bible was never meant to be historically accurate, so there is no way to figure dinosaurs into it.  Case and point: the story of the ten commandments we know involves mountains and a golden calf. However the story changed to whomever it was told to, e.g. if you don't know what a mountain is because you live in a desert, the storyteller would have said, 'he came out of a sandstorm'. It changes so many times only the moral of the stories matter, and there's not really anyway to put science against it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, but couldn't that also apply to homosexuality? Still, divorce, adultery and so on are treated radically different now than how they are in the bible. Not only in laws but also in people's personal attitudes. Once again, HOW is the line drawn. It still strikes me as rather arbitrary, or really, whatever seems stragest to people is the 'most immoral'. It always feels to me that people are deciding what is important in "god's" morality.

[agentmax 0]

You mean the line drawn about homosexual sex? You answered it. God didn't intend for it to be that way. Is that what you mean by "'god's' morality"?I do see a point you might have, and it's very simmilar to the 10th Ammendment in the Bill of Rights. Just because it's not written doesn't mean it's not a right. God gave Adam a different gender partner, but He didn't say, "don't have sex with your same gender," that was always assumed [asumptions are bad!]. Maybe times have changed so that it's not as important to carry on a bloodline? We have alot more free time now, and no plagues to worry about (longer mortality), so now it's possible for more to come out of the closet?I am strange myself, therefore I am very tolerant of others. If I ever saw something realy strange and called that person wrong, I could never do it myself or I'd be a hypocrit.

[MajesticTreeFrog 0]

You mean the line drawn about homosexual sex? You answered it. God didn't intend for it to be that way. Is that what you mean by "'god's' morality"?

I do see a point you might have, and it's very simmilar to the 10th Ammendment in the Bill of Rights.  Just because it's not written doesn't mean it's not a right. God gave Adam a different gender partner, but He didn't say, "don't have sex with your same gender," that was always assumed [asumptions are bad!]. 

Maybe times have changed so that it's not as important to carry on a bloodline?  We have alot more free time now, and no plagues to worry about (longer mortality), so now it's possible for more to come out of the closet?

I am strange myself, therefore I am very tolerant of others.  If I ever saw something realy strange and called that person wrong, I could never do it myself or I'd be a hypocrit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I was actually talking about the line between rules people follow vs ones they break. For instance, people get upset about homosexuality, and want to pass laws and such against it because it is 'against god'. However, so is adultery, divorce, and so on. Not to mention things like women's rights. Yet our culture is not getting nearly so inflamed about those things.

 

Also, as you mention it is dangerous to assume one knows what god meant. This has always bothered me about most theists. The arrogance to think one knows what the almighty wants, especially for others. I think that if (assuming the existence of god, which I do not normally) god wanted no homosexuality, he would be a bit more proactive about it. For instance, no homosexual animals, no interest in homosexuality on the parts of humans, etc.

[agentmax 0]

Yes, there is that free will thing... He had to give us the option, just as putting the tree of knowledge in the center of the garden. Which means he expects us to be gay, and of course forgives us. Were only sad confused little humans.Our culture has already gone through swells of lobbys about womens rights and other issues... now it's homosexuality's turn. I suppose in a few years it won't be as bad. If I recall history class correctly, in order to pass an ammendment 3/4 of the states must ratify within 7 years (or hold a constitutional convention, but that's only happened for the 20th).Women's rights was never passed because of this time constraint, and I suspect when it runs out on gay banning, so will most everyone's moral crusading.Could some others join in this? I feel like I'm 1 on 1 here, that's not quite the point of a forum...

[talse 0]

well, the epsicopalian church differs greatly from most sects of christianity in how it responds to those in search of answers. most churches will say they have all the answers, which is impossible, after some time, unffulfillment hits them head on.episcopalians answer the call to arms with an invitation to join the search, kind of like, "we don't know the answers either, but we'd love it if you'd come looking with us."This allows a much more dynamic view on the way the world works, also, a very individualist church.For instance, i percieve the bible and many of it's laws a stop gap set of rules to keep humanity from destroying it's self while it grew up enough to make decisions on it's own. for instance, god told us the story of genesis the way she did because we just wouldn't have been able to comprehend the big bang. he also told us a bunch of laws because she knew we wouldn't have been able to excercise the apropriate amounts of moderation necesary to avoid abuse.

[shaldengeki1405241473 0]

well, the epsicopalian church differs greatly from most sects of christianity in how it responds to those in search of answers. most churches will say they have all the answers, which is impossible, after some time, unffulfillment hits them head on.

episcopalians answer the call to arms with an invitation to join the search, kind of like, "we don't know the answers either, but we'd love it if you'd come looking with us."

 

This allows a much more dynamic view on the way the world works, also, a very individualist church.

 

For instance, i percieve the bible and many of it's laws a stop gap set of rules to keep humanity from destroying it's self while it grew up enough to make decisions on it's own. for instance, god told us the story of genesis the way she did because we just wouldn't have been able to comprehend the big bang. he also told us a bunch of laws because she knew we wouldn't have been able to excercise the apropriate amounts of moderation necesary to avoid abuse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just noticed something; you used both "he" and "she" to describe God. Intentional? O_o

 

Interesting interpretation of the bible... yes, many of the things in the bible are there to prevent us from destroying ourselves, and they might have rephrased the big bang to sound more mystical. It's certaintly more accurate, in my opinion, than believing that the Bible is to be taken completely literally. There are just some things in the Bible that you know have to be metaphorical...

[MajesticTreeFrog 0]

Marriage is something that is pure and holy between a man and a woman. That is how it was intended by God. When you disregard His intentions in that way then you are allowing sin to come into something that is meant to be so pure. That is why Christians are so against it.

My understanding is that the Catholic church married men long long ago. Also, if his intentions are to keep sin out of marriage, then why does the bible tolerate wife abuse(tolerate is a bit weak, it comes to the verge of encouraging it), treating women as property, and the sacrifice of children? Or what about the parts involving the killing of cities and peoples?

 

On another note, assuming that homosexuality between animals should be against Christian beliefs is assuming that God intended for animals to go to Heaven, or to get married, or to be like people. This is very inaccurate. Jesus did not die for animals, He died for the sins of humankind.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16"

For God so loved THE WORLD... You biblical quote does not back up your words. At the same time, the point of referring to animal homosexuality is to show that god DID put homosexuality into the world, since animals are not moral creatures like man(according to christianity).

It is easy to know what God meant if you actually know the Bible,

Considering that people, even highly trained priests versed in the source languages have been arguing over exactly that for centuries, you are clearly wrong.

 

Not to mention how arrogant it is to assume that you know the wishes of a supreme being.

 

until then please do not make assumptions like this if you do not have factual evidence that what you say is true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are at least as much in error like this as anyone else. Follow your own advice.

[adamsgi 0]

Sorry to harp on about the gay thing again...Jesus did not at any stage say to keep the laws about homosexuality. Basically, the ten commandments were pronounced so that people would not have to live by the very restrictive, voluminous laws in Leviticus (almost all of which come from Zoroastrian texts and have been speculated by certain scholars to have been written by a Persian King as a moral guide for the various tribes).It cannot be right for people to pick and choose which ones should still apply. If Jesus and therefore God had meant for any in particular laws to remain, they would have been outlined in more detail.As for people mentioning the anti-gay verses in Romans, etc. These were written by Paul/Saul and in the early days of Christianity, Pauline Christianity differed quite a lot from the original Church of Jersalem, which was headed up by James, Jesus' brother. Unfortunately, before the Romans adopted Christianity as the Empire's religion (and again changed it even further) they went to Jerusalem and killed pretty much every member of the original Church.Many of the inconsistencies between the varying denominations of Christianity come from the inconsistencies of Paul.So the crux of it is, if you can't be gay, then you can't eat pork, must observe the sabbath (which is actually Saturday, not Sunday) and all males must be circumcised (a practice that is losing popularity amongst Christian groups).**adamsgi waits for the barrage**

[Longfellow 0]

Hey dudes and dudettes. I dont know how or why i stumbled onto this forum but i did so id just like to leave some of my ideas on the topics. First of all its cool that some people are open to trying to understand christian thinking, sometimes i wonder too (and im a christian!) well try to be anyways. Okay, I believe the Bible is an actual divinely written book and should be taken literally (though certain parts are not literal i.e. parables).

christians who really are homosexual can't do anything about it ofcourse, but they can't have sex i think...

 

'tis but my humble opinion

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Id like to talk about this assumption that most people make which is reinforced by the media. That you are born homesexual, an idea no scientist has ever proven (the human genome was mapped there is no gay gene). There is no way to prove someone is gay. Just because you are a feminime male or you speak softly, have a strange desire, or are a male-like female does not mean you were born homosexual. And I also believe The Old Testament (old law) and the New Testament (new law) was designed to show man he could not be perfect and required grace. As Jesus said he did not come to destroy the old covenant but to make a new one (paraphrasing). So the old testament is relevant and still should be tried to be followed (however certain items such as pork eating, etc. seem to be meant culturally for the Jews).

 

Somebody asked about dinosaurs and the bible(sorry i dont know how to quote twice yet). The Bible seems to actually describe several dinosaurs in actual words (Job 40:15-19 also i believe in Revelatoin somewhere though the verse escapes me). The idea is that dinosaurs were created in the beginning with man. The death of the dinosaurs would be attributed to the loss of a another atmospheric level which used to protect from sun rays, radiation, bad stuff, etc. (also attributed to mans long lives in Bible). There is also another interesting thought that dinosaurs were killed off during certain times and were in fact the mythological 'dragons.' Then theres the nowaday (or close enough) many eye witness accounts of actual dinosaurs (mostly seem to be pleisaurs i.e. Nessie, ships pulling up carcasses, and wash ups on beaches).

 

This would be somewhat contrary to evolutionary thought so popular nowadays. A belief that seems to require more faith than most religious philisophies (IMO). Mankind used to be a somewhat ape-like being that evolved into a human with abstract thoughts and the ability to conceptualize higher beings higher than itself (deity) that do not exist (though no transitional skeletons have been discovered, and i realize some claim to have found some, however, most have been debunked as arthritis ridden people or too trivial to count. Plus if we have found so many dinosaur skeletons (who lived millions of years before man) then how come we have found so little transitional skeletons, even of dinosaurs to birds (if thats the still common prevalent thought)).

 

I believe science is a good thing and science lines up with the Bible. I do not hate scientists though i believe their claim to be objective (an impossibility) is poppycock. They even call Evolution a theory yet it seems to be accepted as fact. I hope none of you think this a diatribe against science. I point you to an interesting speech Michael Crichton (of Jurrasic Park fame) delieved (http://www.michaelcrichton.com/index.html) about the fallibility of science and the philisophies of men.

 

This is an interesting article which raises questions as to how old the universe is. http://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/58/. Other interesting articles abound Dr. Missler's site.

 

Well I hope this is as stimiluating for you all as it is for me. Sorry if the post is confusing, i can see its sloppy. Anyways adios.

 

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein, 1941