What And Why You Believe please write logical posts.

[Qop 0]

Ups

I read this:

Your schoolbook writers need to be beaten with a stick.

and ran out to follow the order. Must really try to read on in the future

[cargeek 0]

hmmmm....well......i guess what it comes down to, as far as i'm concerned, is you've got to find something that works for you and have faith in it. whether that's science or buddhism or christianity or paganism or atheism....it really doesn't matter what...just whatever works for you....i am, personally, a pagan...i follow mostly celtic and kabbalistic teachings, but jesus said "my sheep will know my voice." i think he made a good point, there. just look within yourself and listen for that quiet voice deep within you....call it your soul or the holy spirit or your deep mind...what ever you like to call it, everyone has it...listen to it and follow it....as for "good" and "evil"...those are both relative concepts as well....in Massachusettes during the Witch Trials, it was sinful to be able to float/swim while there are people in remote parts of the world who still view cannibalism as perfectly moral....so just look within yourself and let your conscience tell you what is good and what is evil (and what is neither)....**shrugs**imostephen"beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers."--leonard brandwein

[spiritshinobi 0]

i do not believe with the above post. you dont make your own religious beliefs on what YOU think is true, but what is SAID TO BE true in your "holy book". i KNOW that Christianity is the only true religion, but you might not want to believe that because you were born sinful, just like everyone around you. EVERYONE has sinned [besides Christ] just because your religion says that it is true dont actually mean it is [and people will use this against me] but let me ask you this: was there anyone in history who has even risen back to life? yes there has been someone who has-Jesus Christ rose back to life on the 3rd day of his death, proving that He is the ONLY TRUE Lord. HIS is the ONLY true religion. you dont decide what is right. He SHOULD decide what is and isnt but people are ignorant by not accepting Him

[hashbang 0]

was there anyone in history who has even risen back to life?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Anyone know how many times Budda was reincarnated?

 

I find this logic amusing. Why has Christianty have any more veracity than other religions or religious books? Face it, you become that which you are exposed. You are the sum total of your life experiences.

 

âI do not pretend to be able to prove that there is no God. I equally cannot prove that Satan is a fiction. The Christian god may exist; so may the gods of Olympus, or of ancient Egypt, or of Babylon. But no one of these hypotheses is more probable than any other: they lie outside the region of even probable knowledge, and therefore there is no reason to consider any of them.â

Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)

cheers

hashbang

[hashbang 0]

And I couldn't resist this quote either:

âOut of all of the sects in the world, we notice an uncanny coincidence: the overwhelming majority just happen to choose the one that their parents belong to. Not the sect that has the best evidence in its favour, the best miracles, the best moral code, the best cathedral, the best stained glass, the best music: when it comes to choosing from the smorgasbord of available religions, their potential virtues seem to count for nothing, compared to the matter of heredity. This is an unmistakable fact; nobody could seriously deny it. Yet people with full knowledge of the arbitrary nature of this heredity, somehow manage to go on believing in their religion, often with such fanaticism that they are prepared to murder people who follow a different one.â
( Richard Dawkins, in Nullifidian magazine, December, 1994. )

I wonder if this begets another topic .... Where were you raised and how do your beliefs accord to your raising? If there is disscord, describe events leading to that disscord.

Are those who are most Fanatical in their beliefs those who have never challenged their 'cultures' beliefs? By culture I mean the family/social/religious/economic context of their childhood. Are their beliefs fused with who they are and where they come from and have not been open to logical scrutiny?

cheers
hashbang

[MajesticTreeFrog 0]

i do not believe with the above post. you dont make your own religious beliefs on what YOU think is true, but what is SAID TO BE true in your "holy book". i KNOW that Christianity is the only true religion, but you might not want to believe that because you were born sinful, just like everyone around you. EVERYONE has sinned [besides Christ] just because your religion says that it is true dont actually mean it is [and people will use this against me] but let me ask you this: was there anyone in history who has even risen back to life? yes there has been someone who has-Jesus Christ rose back to life on the 3rd day of his death, proving that He is the ONLY TRUE Lord. HIS is the ONLY true religion. you dont decide what is right. He SHOULD decide what is and isnt but people are ignorant by not accepting Him

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, do YOU know of anyone brought back to life? No, you believe it because that is what you were told. Your belief is based entirely on your assumption that the bible as a true and accurate record of what happened.

 

This is an issue, since if you have much knowledge of the history of the christian church, you would know that the bible was not put together by jesus or god, but by others, SINNERS as you call them. Certain accounts and interpretations were discarded for political reasons, and there were many disagreeing sects. Now, not all of them can be correct.

 

Or take for example protestantism in all its forms and catholicism. There are large doctrinal disagreements here. Both cannot be correct. So, which to trust?

 

And that is what it really comes down to, trust. You TRUST that your religion is the 'one true faith', while you ignore the fact that there are something like 40,000 variations on it, many claiming to be the 'one true faith'. And there are the other religions, which may claim that their founders did all sorts of things, and claim this as proof that theirs is the 'one true faith'. Yet their trust is the same as yours, and based on as little.

 

Tell me, outside of your book, written by the very sinners it is meant to save(since neither jesus nor god wrote it), do you have any *good* reason to think that your view is strong? Right? Any more than what you have been taught by those that you trusted as you grew up?

 

If not, perhaps YOUR faith(as opposed to your religion), is not actually the one true faith, but instead just mindless repetion, without depth or meaning.

[spiritshinobi 0]

Your last post proved to me something. You deny every religion that you see because you are afraid to believe just one because you would have to submit to it. And by the way, everyone has sinned, but by Christ their sins are washed away, forgotten, scattered as far as the east from the west. True you will be judged for them, but if you trust Christ and follow Him, when you get to heaven you will live eternally. Since I cannot adequatley respond to your last post, I ask you: Why deny?

[MajesticTreeFrog 0]

Your last post proved to me something. You deny every religion that you see because you are afraid to believe just one because you would have to submit to it. And by the way, everyone has sinned, but by Christ their sins are washed away, forgotten, scattered as far as the east from the west. True you will be judged for them, but if you trust Christ and follow Him, when you get to heaven you will live eternally. Since I cannot adequatley respond to your last post, I ask you: Why deny?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do not deny immediately. First I question, examine. I bring to bear the teeth of logic and the sword of doubt, as I refered to it earlier. When they are done, I see what is left. Most of the time, rather little. But you are wrong if you think I deny 'every religion', though I do not accept any in their entirety. All religions and their scriptures are composed of the writings of people, and as such are prone to the flaws that people carry.

 

If you cannot respond to my last post, respond to this:

 

Why accept? Not only your religion, but you interpretation of it? Unless you can bring in Jesus himself, alive and well, and have him vouch that YOU have got it correct, then you are guessing as much as anyone. But you cannot do this, so I will make it easier for you.

 

Use *logic* to show why there is any good reason to think that you are correct. In this, you cannot use the bible without first establishing that both it and your interpretation of it are without flaws.

 

I hope you understand the task in front of you, as no one has succeded yet.

[Troubadour 0]

Well, as for myself... I was raised in a Christian home by Christian parents. I've been exposed to Christianity all my life. Many would say that because of that, I am to be considered a Christian from the moment of birth (or conception... but that's an entirely new issue ) On the contrary... I absolutely believe that I did not become a Christian until I was about 16 years old. It was then that I relized how much I, a fallen man in a fallen world, need saving. "For the wages of sin is death."

 

From there, I began developing a personal relationship with Christ. If this is something you have not experienced... well, it's a bit hard to explain. It all begins with a realization.

 

We were born into a sinful world. All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Sin is what divides us from God. Apart from God there is only death; just as there is no such thing as darkness, only the absence of light; no such thing as quiet, only absence of sound.

 

So basically, we're screwed right? Great, just what I wanted to hear... because I'm a bad person, I go to Hell. What a great God...

 

Wrong. This is where Jesus comes in...(a.k.a. the really cool part)

 

God sends a child to a virgin. Meanin' this chick gets preagnant, but never did the horizontal mambo. Weird. An angel tells her that it's God's son... What? You must be outside yo mind. So she has this baby and names him Jesus. Somethin' funny 'bout this kid though, he never does anything wrong. He never sins. Now that just ain't natural. He grows up and starts teaching people all about these revolutionary ideas about loving your enemies, and not following the teachings of the day. He says to them that he is the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God who the prophets said would come to free them. 'Course they're all thinkin' he's gonna free them from the Romans or take over the world for them so they can all live happily ever after... Instead, he frees them from sin... he frees us from sin.

 

Jesus was accused by the authorities of the day of speaking blasphemy, or speaking against God, when in fact he was speaking for God. They hated him for it so much, that when given a choice between him and a ruthless, well-known, much-hated murderer... the people take the murderer. Jesus was beaten to a pulp, torn to shreds, had bones broken, mocked and humiliated, you name it... Then, they drove huge nails through his wrists and feet and hung him on a cross to die slowly like a common criminal...

 

...It was there that Christ won the greatest battle of all... the battle for our souls.

 

Jesus took all the sins that have ever been committed and will be committed upon himself... and died with them. He took our place. Remember, we were supposed to die from our sins. He did it for us. This is so profound to me that I can't possibly begin to imagine what it truly means... and I'll probably never know until the day that I die.

 

After three days, Christ came back. He came back from something no one could survive. He proved his victory over death. He then ascended to be with the Father, God, and left us with his spirit to guide us. Now, we don't have to die. Instead, God has granted us eternal life if we'll only accept Him as our savior. Christ lives... and here's some proof...

 

Many of the world's religions acknowledge the existence of the man Jesus. They view him as a great teacher of moral values, nothing more. If he was so important and hated that the people would choose to set a terrible murderer free rather than him, then tell me something... When Christ's followers declared that he had risen from the dead, why didn't the leaders simply parade his corpse around in the streets to discredit them? Why did Christianity spread all around the world and is now a huge religion today? There's tons of things I could say here to try to prove to you the existence of Christ and his resurrection... but I think I've taken up enough room already...

 

What I'm getting at is that this is what I believe and why I believe it. It's way bigger than anything I can amount to or even fathom for that matter. Simply based on what God has done in my life alone is proof enough for me. I know His word to be true. I know that my God is the one and only God. I know it because I live it and He lives in me.

 

It's real easy for me to just type this out on a computer screen without ever looking you in the face, I admit that. But what I'm saying here is my true conviction. This is what my entire existence is based upon. If there's anything here that you are confused about or want to know more about... please, please talk to me or someone about it. I don't mean to scare anyone off. I know I can't answer all your questions, heck I'll probably just give you more... but I guess that's one of the side effects of trying to put into human terms that which is not human.

[MajesticTreeFrog 0]

Well, as for myself...  I was raised in a Christian home by Christian parents.  I've been exposed to Christianity all my life.  Many would say that because of that, I am to be considered a Christian from the moment of birth (or conception... but that's an entirely new issue )  On the contrary... I absolutely believe that I did not become a Christian until I was about 16 years old.  It was then that I relized how much I, a fallen man in a fallen world, need saving.  "For the wages of sin is death."

 

.....

What I'm getting at is that this is what I believe and why I believe it.  It's way bigger than anything I can amount to or even fathom for that matter.  Simply based on what God has done in my life alone is proof enough for me.  I know His word to be true.  I know that my God is the one and only God.  I know it because I live it and He lives in me. 

 

It's real easy for me to just type this out on a computer screen without ever looking you in the face, I admit that.  But what I'm saying here is my true conviction.  This is what my entire existence is based upon.  If there's anything here that you are confused about or want to know more about... please, please talk to me or someone about it.  I don't mean to scare anyone off.  I know I can't answer all your questions, heck I'll probably just give you more... but I guess that's one of the side effects of trying to put into human terms that which is not human.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

May I first say that being willing to say this without aggression, as a simple explanation of your viewpoint, is very refreshing and noble. Second, I am glad you have found such conviction in your life, and I hope you are as good at not forcing that opinion on others in life offline as on. Third, when you mention the difficulty of explaining what happened to you, I totally understand, as I posted my own experience earlier. So, thank you.

 

So, to the meat of it, I view things differently than you. This is fine and dandy, and If you want to talk about these things, I will explain how I see things, and explain reasons why your view does not work for me, and give you some ideas as food for thought that you may accept or reject as you will, though I hope you seriously consider them.

 

I will save the discussion revolving around why leaders did not parade his body around the streets for another time, as I would need to refresh my memory on some things, and don't have the relevant books around. In any case, the short short short form is that your historical understanding is flawed. Jesus is important to christians, and therefore he and what happens to him are given great priority to them, but for the romans he was just a criminal and a nuisance, and was much like many other religious reformers/leaders/etc. To Rome, it was basically not worth caring about once the leader was dead. I realize that isn't helpful, but I don't have the ability nor inclination to mess with it right now on my computer.

 

Why did Buddhism spread around the world, and become a major religion today? Does that make it true? No, popularity doesn't have much in the way of merit. Brittany Spears is popular, but her music sucks. Indeed, for a long long time, until very very recently, christianity was a small drop in the bucket on the world stage, comprising only Europe. It seems bigger because many come from a european background, and study that history in school, and therefore have europe's importance significantly overexagerated in our mindspace. Europeans did finally affect much of the globe, but through war and imperialism, not the love of Jesus. In the process, they converted people(often forcefully), and that is how things spread. So, it is not through the power or persuasiveness or even the quality of the message that caused christianity to spread, but instead the power of the sword and the musket. Now, don't interpret this to mean that I consider this manner of spreading to invalidate the religion(though It does call it into doubt in my mind), but I am simply trying to point out that the size, popularity, etc, of an idea/creed in no way shows its accuracy. The same Europeans who were Christians believed the earth was flat, and for good reason: looking into the distance, it looked flat, and they had little reason to believe otherwise(there were ways to have known, but much of that knowledge was lost in the dark ages, it wasn't till the renaissance that it began to be rediscovered). So, these things are not good indicators of accuracy.

 

Furthermore, I completely understand your religious feelings, as I have had a religious experience, recounted elsewhere. However, it came from meeting a buddhist monk. What does this mean? Well, for one it means that we have to be careful about accepting even those experiences at face value. Most people are part of the religion of their parents, and MANY many people have had religious experiences, and they all feel that these experiences validate THEIR religion to the exclusion of others. People interpret these events based on how they were brought up to interpret them: as affirmations of what they were taught as childen as per their religion. But they cannot all be correct, except that perhaps there is more to it all than there seems(as a psychology person, I can say that even this is very subject to doubt, but that is neither here nor there).

 

So, where does that leave the inquiring mind? Well, it seems to me that it leaves one having to use other tools to establish validity. Even St. Augustine was inclined to think so. He thought that religion(christianity) could be shown using reason. This begins by saying: Is this right? The first step towards true, honest faith, (in my mind), is doubt. Otherwise, one is just speaking what one has been fed.

 

So, in order to not go on forever, that is where things stand for me. I believe what I believe because as far as I can tell my beliefs as per religion survive the test of doubt.

[Brian1405241474 0]

I think this is a very interesting idea for a topic. As for my beliefs, I am a Christian and while I won't go into the specific beliefs of my denomination, I would like to say my general beliefs are very much the same as the beliefs of CS Lewis. I have read some of his books and found his view of Christianity to be very interesting. I won't go into detail about all he believes, but I like his writting in that they seem very basic scientific and not too "spiritual" or ethereal.

The Moral Law tells us the tune we have to play: our instincts are merely the keys

I can't really say why I believe that way, other than it just seems right and makes sense (sorry if that isn't a good enough reason).
I would recommend his books to anyone. They have an intriguing view on Christianity and even human life and human nature in general and, I think, are not written purely for a Christen audience.

Those those are my beliefs

[MajesticTreeFrog 0]

I think this is a very interesting idea for a topic.  As for my beliefs, I am a Christian and while I won't go into the specific beliefs of my denomination, I would like to say my general beliefs are very much the same as the beliefs of CS Lewis.  I have read some of his books and found his view of Christianity to be very interesting.  I won't go into detail about all he believes, but I like his writting in that they seem very basic scientific and not too "spiritual" or ethereal. 

The Moral Law tells us the tune we have to play: our instincts are merely the keys

I can't really say why I believe that way, other than it just seems right and makes sense (sorry if that isn't a good enough reason).

 

I would recommend his books to anyone. They have an intriguing view on Christianity and even human life and human nature in general and, I think, are not written purely for a Christen audience.

 

Those those are my beliefs

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed, Lewis's 'mere' christianity has a lot to be said for it. I have a compendium of his works on christianity, and I am slowly going through it. While I disagree with him on multiple points, I think he was a great mind and contributed a lot. Modern christians should read him more I think. I am glad to know that you do.

[Troubadour 0]

Oh yeah! C.S. Lewis is a great author! I love his stuff... been reading it since childhood (Chronicles of Narnia). It's very interesting to me to learn about his own life and growth in his faith. He was a scholar and an athiest that set out to disprove Christianity. He looked to science, read through the Bible, read the Koran, the Tora, etc. Supposedly his research was quite extensive, though I can't speak for him myself. All I know is that at the end of his research he came to the ultimate conclusion that God does exist and that Jesus Christ is His son that died for our sins. He was a different man from then on and sought to further the Kingdom of God rather than try to tear it down. Great testimony and story!

[thatguycalledrob 0]

ok, what to say? the problem with large discussions of philosophy/religion in a large forum setting is they take a long time to read. sorry i did skim a few of your paragraphs - i saw large blots of text and got afraid. anywho, enough on that.

Well, it was refreshing to hear a few people who beleived in the Bible, and refreshing to hear some of you say you've read it. Often I find myself with programmers and engineers who base their athiesm/agnostism on impressions of Christianity and small bits they've heard from fellow atheists of scifi authors who think because they read Rowe and Paley they understand our faith. I don't mean to insult them, but I want to make my point that a lot of people who speak against our faith don't know a lot of fact. This is annoying because a part of me wants to take each argument and disect it and show it for what it is. But, that leads to nowhere. But, you have posed the question and I have some number of posts to go before I get free hosting, so let's get on with it.

I beleive every word of the Bible is true. Which Bible? That would be the 66 book version of the Bible that was born out of the protestant reformation. There are large volume books and much debate between that and the 72 book version the catholics and similars use. There are large volumes of text explain the problem with those books. Other than that near any translation of this Bible will do (there are translations known as paraphrase Bibles - I cannot speak for the accuracy of these). They're are many translations, yes, because they're are many languages and not too mention the art of translation itself is inprecise (the largest problem being should you translate every single word, or the phrase - what about colloquisms and suddle things? - I think you get the idea). Now I'm sure you've heard of 'contradictions' in the Bible. That's just foolishness, these have been "weighed, measured and found wanting" - go google it.

I beleive in Jesus Christ is Lord, I beleive he died and rose on the third day. This isn't a shock to most of you, but there are unfortunately 'Christians' who don't beleive this.

From these two is premise enough for faith. Faith explains my beleif against all those 'scientific theory' issues. I put that in quotes because each such theory "has been weighed, measured and found wanting" - sorry, it's really fun to say, but really go google it.

There also lots of other beleifs I have which usually are ignored in these discussions - but since you brought it up. I beleive we must repent and be baptised for the forgiveness of our sins (Acts 2) and many others. I beleive in going around telling people about Jesus and eagerly trying to save them - it was commanded (Matt 28:18-20). I beleive in loving my those around me, daily time alone with God. I beleive that there are many who say they are Christians, but will not make it to heaven. And, I beleive everything else in the Bible.

So there, enjoy my Lincolns.

[MajesticTreeFrog 0]

Well, it was refreshing to hear a few people who beleived in the Bible, and refreshing to hear some of you say you've read it.  Often I find myself with programmers and engineers who base their athiesm/agnostism on impressions of Christianity and small bits they've heard from fellow atheists of scifi authors who think because they read Rowe and Paley they understand our faith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can tell you why: We get a lot of christians who ask us 'why don't you believe?'. When, from our perspective, the questions 'why do you believe? Why is that better than any other set of beliefs? How well does that stand up against critique?' are where you should start.

 

Ther other problem is the hordes of 'christians' who go on full assault when they find out you are not christian, and try and convert you. Then, when you ask them to explain their faith, it becomes apparent that they really have no clue what they believe, either, except that it is true.

 

This gets very old, very quickly, and after the 50th or so 'faith attack', one feels rather beligerent towards the whole lot. Sadly, since all the crazies identify them selves as christians(loudly), those of us who deal with them begin to group everyone who identifies themselves as christian in with the crazies, and often react with irritiation that isn't deserved because the crazies have given you a *very* bad name.

 

I beleive every word of the Bible is true. Which Bible? That would be the 66 book version of the Bible that was born out of the protestant reformation. There are large volume books and much debate between that and the 72 book version the catholics and similars use.

Now, do you believe every word of the bible is literally true? And I mean every word. Gen 32:30 says, "...for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Then, John 1:18: "No man hath seen God at any time..."

 

If such passages are held to be true, then there is a problem, because these two passages are contradictory and therefore cannot both be literally true. If these passages are not 'literal' then there is a problem, because then you must interpret the 'absolute truth', and you aren't really in a position to do that(because you aren't god, so you can't say(without supreme hubris) that you know what he wants).

 

There are escapes from this trap, so I am pointing it out as a word of caution. The declaration 'it is true!!' is what gets the atheists and agnostics and such so irritated.