God's Role In Natural Disasters Gods warning or Nature at work?

[hashbang 0]

Hey Guys,
To kick off this forum ... I found this article while reading the paper this morning. It really amazed me that modern day religious leaders suggest that the Tsunami disaster was a message from God ... almost like the Sodom and Gomora (unsure of spelling) story!

I think this is nature pure and simple. As a matter of fact, I actually liked the buddist response best of all of them. I can come closer to believing in harmonic/karmic forces more than the 'hand of god sending us messages' line. To move off topic a bit, I even see the Buddist monks explaination come close to scientific Chaos Theory.

What are your thoughts??

cheers
hashbang

God's role has clerics dividedThe Age - Melbourne
By Barney Zwartz
Religion Editor
January 4, 2005

In churches, mosques and temples around Australia, as worshippers struggle to make sense of the tsunami disaster in south Asia, their religious leaders have no glib answers.

But they were divided about God's responsibility yesterday, with some seeing it as a divine warning and others as simply an act of nature.

Sydney's controversial Anglican Dean, Phillip Jensen, suggested it was God's warning that judgement was coming, a view echoed yesterday by Melbourne's most prominent Muslim leader, Sheikh Fehmi Naji al-Imam of the Preston mosque.
"We don't understand God's will but we accept it," Sheikh Fehmi said.
"Islam says disaster comes from time to time to warn people and shake them up, make them realise they have left God too far behind."

Dean Jensen was unavailable yesterday, but South Sydney Bishop Robert Forsyth amplified his remarks.
"Everything that happens is under the sovereignty of God, yes. But did God say 'I'll send a tsunami today'? No. This event, though terrible, is a natural event," Bishop Forsyth said.

Melbourne Anglican Archbishop Peter Watson said the Christian response was to reach out with compassion and care, but it would be presumptuous to speak for God. "The prophets of old were able to say 'thus says the Lord', and their words were put into holy writ - and they said some unpopular things - but we can't stand where they stood."

Rabbi Mordechai Gutnick, president of the Organisation of Rabbis of Australia, said to question God was to question with our finite minds His infinite wisdom. "What we consider tragedies are part of His plan, and the final result is what counts."
He said when Moses asked God why He allowed the Jews to suffer in slavery, God replied that He revealed himself in different ways. "The Jewish people in the crucible of Egyptian slavery found the basis of what we now call the Judeo-Christian ethic."

Buddhist leader Venerable Lama Choedak Rinpoche also suggested the good might eventually outweigh the bad.

He said the tsunami was part of the collective karma of the universe, and could be a catalyst for peace, harmony and generosity.

"To us it seems very big, but when people sweep their driveway they kill hundreds of ants without calling it a tsunami. That kind of suffering and turbulence are happening all the time, and Buddha's explanation is purification of negative karma. It is not the karma of those individuals or punishment by a super-being."

[shaldengeki1405241473 0]

To be honest, I really don't think we should be focusing on why this happened right now- what needs our attention is how we can remedy the crisis currently facing us. I mean, while people are dying in Thailand, we're sitting here asking whether some deity (that may or may not exist) did this because it wants to warn us, of all people.

 

To be honest, I found the Rabbi's response to be most disturbing. He's trying to tell us that we shouldn't care about what happens now, as long as things turn out well in the end. This can be translated to "the ends justify the means", which is how many rather infamous people in history have taken power.

[hashbang 0]

Hey Mate,Good point!cheershashbang

[MajesticTreeFrog 0]

Thanks hashbang for setting the forum up, cause I have been way too busy with work. Anyway, beyond the good point made by shaldengeki, I always am amazed at the arrogance displayed by religious leaders of any stripe when they declare such events as a 'message' as this usually implies that said leader somehow knows what that god wants, as well as being sort of insulting. As if any being like that couldn't just call everyone on the phone and tell em what's what.

[Soleq 0]

I most closely align myself with Eastern philosophy, and I'm quite pleased to see how the Bhuddists are reacting to the tsunami. As with anything in this world, there is a balance. Out of the immediate pain and destruction will come a time of unity. Complete nations that were once at war with each other (or itself) are now setting aside those differences to promote survival. Sure, the occasional fight may break out, but in the end, this is a time of rebirth.It's hard for me to even contimplate a divine act such as this. I find many flaws in the majority of western religions, and this would certainly be one of them.

[whafizi 0]

do you believe in god?do you really know what's god is?do you really think human are so brilliant now that they can outdo god?or does god really exist?do you believe that you know everyhing?There are millions things on the earth that still uncovered by HomoSapiens, but they already think that they are so brilliant. That's why they think god is not needed.You think you have seen everything? Ghost?, Sprit?, Miricles?, Psyshic?, DeeJavoo? Magic? just to name a few.

[MajesticTreeFrog 0]

do you believe in god?

 

do you really know what's god is?

 

do you really think human are so brilliant now that they can outdo god?

 

or does god really exist?

 

do you believe that you know everyhing?

 

There are millions things on the earth that still uncovered by HomoSapiens, but they already think that they are so brilliant. That's why they think god is not needed.

 

You think you have seen everything? Ghost?, Sprit?, Miricles?, Psyshic?, DeeJavoo? Magic? just to name a few.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

um, ok.... I am not sure how that directly relates to the discussion...

 

In any case, that is sort of my point. ANY talk of knowing God tends to be an arrogant viewpoint. Io God needed? I am not sure how exactly to answer that question. Needed for what? Morality? I am not a believer, neither are most Buddhists/Taoists/etc. Most atheists and agnostics lead what I consider to be rather moral lives..... So, clearly not(at least by my reconning)

 

For explaining horrible things? I hope not, that seems more suited to devils to me, and I see no reason why there must be a god for there to be devils(and no I don't believe in devils, just to clear that up).

 

So then, please explain what we need god for in this context(ie, none of that salvation stuff, because that is not relevant, not to mention arrogant that you know through whatever source how or why one is 'saved'. If you didn't intend to go there my appologies)

 

As for natural disasters in general, why is it hard conclude that plates move, and that therefore we should do what we can about it and learn from our mistakes with regards to warning systems and such, while of course cleaning up the mess(which is what we are really doing now, I just wonder why others bother to bring god into it)

[OpaQue 15]

I believe in some power which supports me, encourages me and calms me down whenever I go mad. I have faith in that power, which helps me when i m in the worst situation, which saves me from an accident within inches... The chill runs down my spine and then assures me that I am alive and everything is fine. I call that God. Nomatter what you do, whom you follow, what you preach.. Just make sure that when you pray, you have faith. Else don't do it at all.Besides, a week back, I read in papers that Australian or American Scientists have proved that the people who pray live longer than those who dont.

[-=Wrighty=- 0]

I think it was just nature as there was hundreds of thousands of innocent people who died and only a small number on them, if any would have done something bad.

[whafizi 0]

religion/god are hard topics to explain. it cannot be discussed easily. but for me, believe that god exists.no body can prove god exists, but still, no body could also explain weird stuff that r happening in this world, but they do happen.like OpaQue said, god is something we hold on to...that's just my opinion, im not forcing anyone to agree with it...

[pbolduc 0]

I first would like to thank both hashbang for starting this topic and for management for allowing topics concerning God in the forums at all.

In viewing the responses it is clear that there is wide range of perspectives concerning not only the topic of God's hand in natural disasters, but if there is a single God at all.

If you were to scan the conversation between MajesticTreeFrog and I concerning the big bang theory you would come to realize that I DO believe in a single God, who created the entire universe.

In order to discuss the topic at hand, one has to express whether or not there is a God at all. After all, if there is no God, then obviously He wounldn't have a hand in natural disasters.

Not coming from a religious background, (non-practicing Catholic) I, as a young man had no real basis to establish a belief system. I felt like OpaQue...

I believe in some power which supports me, encourages me and calms me down whenever I go mad. I have faith in that power, which helps me when i m in the worst situation, which saves me from an accident within inches...

There truth of the matter is that most of us realize there is a higher power of some kind out there, but we never take the time to try to find out who or what this power is, nor do we make any efforts to get to know and understand this power.

The sad part is most totally reject the possibility of a single God mainly because we live in a society that teaches a "unity in diversity" philosophy when it comes to religion. The resault is we all end up creating the god we want to worship in our own minds. We find a piece of doctrine and if it fits in the doctrine we have made up, be choose to believe it, if not we reject it.

That is why in the US alone there are over 20,000 registered religions that proclaim tha Jesus Christ is Lord. Think about this for a moment. There are 20,000 religious doctrines (man-made opinions ) each attempting to understand God's single Truth. No wonder there are so many seeking the truth in other places.

Over ten years ago I made the decision to search for myself to see if there was a single God or not. In the Bible it states that if we seek God with an earnest heart, we will find Him.

As one of the posts stated in so many words, it would be impossible for me to convince you, or anyone for that matter, that there is a single God. Why? Because it is a matter of the heart. God promises us that He will write His laws and precepts on our hearts, not our mind.

God is ever ready to touch our hearts. However, He does not want our servitude out of force. That is why He gave us the freedom to either choose or reject Him. If we seek Him earnestly we will find Him, and His single Truth, if not, we will accept whatever thruth we make up in our own minds.

Before one can truly give their perspective on whether or not God has a hand in natural disasters, they must first decide whether or not there is a God or not in their own mind.

If their conclusion is that there is no God, then the answer is simple, No. However, if they find that there is a single God, then they have to refer to the Word of God to understand His nature in dealing with mankind and the sins they commit.

In reading and studying God's Word, it is plain that God does, in fact, take an active role in dealing with, not only in our personal lives, but in nations as a whole as well.

As a result of personal study in God's Word, I do believe beyond any doubt in my mind that God does take an active role in events like the disaster in Asia. His word is full of examples of His nature in regards to sin against Him.

While I am not saying God brought this actions against these people, I am not saying He didn't either. In considering the facts, that part of the world is basically pagan. Whose to say that it wasn't God taking action on a land that has rejected Him for so long? I don't know.

Here's some food for thought for those of you that might say; "I can't believe in a God that would do such a thing." Such a statement indicates that you are one of those who are establishing your own doctrine and creating in your mind the god that you want to serve, and not the God of creation.

If there is a single God, which I believe, and He spoke all that is into being, which I also believe, then it is His creation to with as He pleases. Who are we, the created to dispute Him, He holds our very next breath in His hands.

[OpaQue 15]

There are 1000's of things which are beyond the limits of Science.

One thing while reading your (pbolduc) post was, Life after death. All the people who have expereinced death have reported that they saw themselves lying on the floor. The could see the people around them. And most of them even claimed that the feeling was very devine and peaceful.

There is also a phenomenon called ASTRAL PROJECTION in which a person can travel out of his body.
According to crystalinks.com/astral.html ( Read for more information )

In astral projection the conscious mind leaves the physical body and moves into the astral body. The astral body is one of seven subtle bodies we all have.
Some people can astral project naturally. Others are afraid to leave the physical body and never are able to astral project. An alternative approach is remote viewing.

In astral projection you remain attached to your physical body by a silver "umbilical type" cord. Some people see the cord and others do not.

You are aware of things you encounter along the way while out of your body.

To astral project, as with all out-of-body experiences - one must feel totally relaxed, clothing fitting comfortable, reclining is best. Often a comforter is best over the body as the physical body sometimes gets cold when you travel out.

All this cannot be explained by Science. Does that give us a reason to believe in God ?

[hashbang 0]

All this cannot be explained by Science. Does that give us a reason to believe in God ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Although, just because science can not explain them today does not mean it cannot in the future ... man has always believed there were unexplainable things or certain 'truths' which have been dispelled over time.

 

I don't believe in a flat earth nor do I believe the earth is the center of the universe. I do believe that there are explainations for all things ... whether we have the capacity or technology to understand them is another question.

 

We are a emotive social creature which seeks explainations. If an explaination isn't available we conjour dieties or supernatural ones to supplicate our needs.

 

cheers

hashbang

 

PS I have this sinking feeling that I should be doing my 'real' job at the moment rather than responding to this post ... I don't attribute that feeling or emotion attached to it to a higherpower (unless you consider my employers :-) ).

[pbolduc 0]

All this cannot be explained by Science. Does that give us a reason to believe in God ?

We do not need science, proved or disproved, to have a reason to believe in God. the Word of God tells us that the very creation itself speaks of His existance.

 

Regarding astral projection, it most likely is possible. That is not to say that we should be delving into these areas. There are a lot of things that take place on the spiritual realm which, I believe, God never intended His people to mess with.

 

An interesting fact to consider is why are we here in the first place? Being a believer in a creator, God, I have to lean to what the Word of God says. The problem here is that most fail to take the time, or put forth any effort to settle the matter in their own mind.

 

You have to take it back to the Garden of Eden to fully grasp why we are here. Prior to the expulsion from the Garden, man, (Adam) walked in the presence of God. It was God's intent for us to fellowship with Him, in His presence. Sin caused the division between us and God. But God, knew before hand and had already established a plan of redemption, which came in the form of Jesus.

 

We were never created to seek after the things of this world. (i.e. money, big houses, fame, etc.) We were created to fellowship with our Creator in a Garden where all of our needs were met. Nothing more and nothing less. The Bible tells us that the will of God is that we know Him. Not know of Him, but actually get to know Him personally.

 

Those who think that God is too busy to care about them are gravely mistaken. He has the hairs on your head counted. He knew of you before you were conceived, in the whomb, and now, right where you are. You may not know of, or believe in Him, but He is not only aware of your existance, it is His will that you come to know Him, personally.

[hashbang 0]

An interesting fact to consider is why are we here in the first place? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why do we need a purpose? I think this is giving humans much more credit than we deserve. A sort of self importance which isn't warranted.

 

Why are cockroaches here too?

 

cheers

hashbang