brainless 0 Report post Posted July 8, 2005 ok, I agree that the London bombing series was a terrible thing to do._but_: If there's really noone in the "civilised" world who can support such a thing, why, why the heck did some other people call for nuclear bombs on the entire Middle East; why did someone ask to put terrorists to death without trial; why do people claim that even the most basic human rights should not be applied to people from the Middle East?These claims are nothing else than requesting to be put back into the middle ages, when people were put to death on the simple cause of being called a witch, wizard or simply non-Christian.The Human Rights and the Geneva Convention are two of the most important protocols which have been developed and accepted by almost the entire world dring the last 60 (UDHR) to 120 (GC) years - now give me some good reasons why I should accept abolishing these?by the way, if no one in the so-called "civilised world" can support killing dozens of civilians and injuring hundreds - how can you support the "War on Terror"? by now, about 130,000 iraqi civilians have been killed by the US and UK army and many, many more have been injured and are being mistreated in the occupation troops concentration camps, of which Abu Ghurayb is the most infamous but by any means not the only terrible thing.as long as we (with "we" meaning the people from the so-called "western world") do not stop mistreating, raping, torturing, murdering innocent people, I don't see any reason why we should be outraged when people who in our view are innocent die due to their government's actions. Remember: There's no "it's the government, not me" in a democratic world because we claim that the governments represent the people, therefore the people are responsible for their gov... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joshua 0 Report post Posted July 8, 2005 ok, I agree that the London bombing series was a terrible thing to do. _but_: If there's really noone in the "civilised" world who can support such a thing, why, why the heck did some other people call for nuclear bombs on the entire Middle East; why did someone ask to put terrorists to death without trial; why do people claim that even the most basic human rights should not be applied to people from the Middle East? These claims are nothing else than requesting to be put back into the middle ages, when people were put to death on the simple cause of being called a witch, wizard or simply non-Christian. The Human Rights and the Geneva Convention are two of the most important protocols which have been developed and accepted by almost the entire world dring the last 60 (UDHR) to 120 (GC) years - now give me some good reasons why I should accept abolishing these? by the way, if no one in the so-called "civilised world" can support killing dozens of civilians and injuring hundreds - how can you support the "War on Terror"? by now, about 130,000 iraqi civilians have been killed by the US and UK army and many, many more have been injured and are being mistreated in the occupation troops concentration camps, of which Abu Ghurayb is the most infamous but by any means not the only terrible thing. as long as we (with "we" meaning the people from the so-called "western world") do not stop mistreating, raping, torturing, murdering innocent people, I don't see any reason why we should be outraged when people who in our view are innocent die due to their government's actions. Remember: There's no "it's the government, not me" in a democratic world because we claim that the governments represent the people, therefore the people are responsible for their gov... 158720[/snapback] Fact of the matter is that people are not going to act justly or as they should, it's human nature to be evil and unreasonable. How I look at it... You look at the War on Terror and the abu ghraib abuses but these are just reflections of the gross miscarriages of justice overlooked even on the home front. If the American people have reached the point where they will do nothing about abortion, the death penalty, innocent people spending years of their lives in prison with at best a "sorry we goofed" statement, and the police, prosecutors, and childcare "welfare" officials who cause so many problems for innocent people get off virtually scot-free, what makes you think they will go out of their way to do anything for those not even in their own country? This isn't just America either however, not anymore anyway, the rest of the world is copying many of America's practices, for the worse in many cases, and the world in general is one which turns a deaf ear to the cries of those in need. I heard a statistic before, something like half the world has a surplus of food and the other half doesn't have enough, or something like that... Long story short, I'm saying that if there is going to be any real true reform in all these issues, there would have to be a changing of the people in this world who condone such problems. You would essentially have to change the very nature of people, and they say that you can't teach an old dog new tricks. The essential nature of people is very, very resistant to any kind of change. Well, I believe there will be a resolving of all these issues, but only when the earth is populated by people who have had their very natures changed. And that will come only after this earth has been destroyed and a new one created, and the only ones left to inhabit it those with the love of Christ in their hearts. Scoff at the idea as much as you want but the fact remains that you need the natures of the people inhabiting a society changed, and I don't think you can give a more likely scenario for such a thing occurring. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Milovoriel 0 Report post Posted July 8, 2005 And that will come only after this earth has been destroyed and a new one created, and the only ones left to inhabit it those with the love of Christ in their hearts. So what happens to the rest of us then? Are you seriously telling me that we don't deserve to live because we don't share your ideology? That's disgraceful .... I don't agree with your belief system, but I acknowledge your right to follow your faith .... and your right to life .... what on earth are you thinking making comments like the one above? .... I don't understand .... I know this is "the vent" section but surely comments like the one I've quoted above shouldn't be supported? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
guangdian 0 Report post Posted July 8, 2005 i just have heard that london has been attacked by torrorist..? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joshua 0 Report post Posted July 8, 2005 So what happens to the rest of us then? Are you seriously telling me that we don't deserve to live because we don't share your ideology? That's disgraceful .... I don't agree with your belief system, but I acknowledge your right to follow your faith .... and your right to life .... what on earth are you thinking making comments like the one above? .... I don't understand .... I know this is "the vent" section but surely comments like the one I've quoted above shouldn't be supported? 158737[/snapback] On the contrary ma'am, I'm saying all of us, myself included, don't deserve to live... period. We don't get out of it by being good or following some ideology, we get out of it by finding mercy by trusting in Him, Jesus Christ our God, to save us since He will never forsake those who are truly trusting in Him. If you take a look at the 10 Commandments which most people will agree are a pretty basic standard for the most part, you'll see we all fall short somewhere. The chances of anyone never breaking any of these few even is astronomical: -Never hate anyone, since hatred is equated to murder. -Never tell a lie, however a small. -Never lust after someone you're married to, that's equated to adultery. -Never steal anything. God's ultimate standard is perfection, it's why Christ said to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect. We all fall short and that's why it says the whole world is guilty before God. The whole point doesn't lie in showing others to be worse then anyone else (aside from that we all sinners worthy of death) but to find mercy ourselves and help others find mercy as well. In other words, since we are all by default the enemies of God since God's standard is perfection and anything less is literal rebellion against Him, we need to get in a right relationship with Him through Jesus Christ's payment for our sins. Simple as that. You might find this ridiculous but this means humans cannot say a murder or rapist or thief needs to be killed for their crimes by other humans since we are all guilty of death. God being perfect is the only just Judge who can administer vengeance properly, and if Christ never came for anyone to believe in Him, we'd all be in serious trouble. Christ is our escape, God providing us a way out from His wrath and just judgment on our sin. God is perfect and thus perfectly just and there has to be a payment for our sins. I saw this movie "National Treasure" recently where the cop told the main charachter at the end that someone had to go to prison. The star ended up getting the "bad guys" caught in a trap by the police so they ended up going to prison instead of him... but this is in essence the dilemma God is in. Someone has to pay for our crimes, He's given us the option to have our penalties fall on His head instead of ours, but if we refuse then we'll just have to get what we had coming in the first place. For if we refuse the perfect sacrifice of God Himself... what escape do you really think is left? This was all I was trying to say all along, I'm not trying to make myself look better then anyone else or say anyone else needs to be punished to make myself look good. I'm all to happy to admit I deserve death, in fact I'm sure a lot of the saints in Heaven will be ex-murderers and drinkers and the lowlifes of society who fell as low as they could get and realized how much they needed God. But God can save anyone, if they are willing, and truly repent. Maybe this all sounds ridiculous to you as well, that even Hitler could've gone to Heaven if He'd repented. But you see, when Christ comes into a person's life He changes them from the inside out, and they are no longer the same person. They will turn from their sins (repentance) and forsake them utterly. They are given a new spirit that gives them utterly different desires and passions and which loves others easily. And it comes with peace. I can try to explain it to you further but I think anything I could say would be inadequate in this matter. And if it should be possible for a person to rebel so greatly against God that they should lose their salvation the Bible explicitly states in Hebrews 6:4-6 that they never regain their salvation for they seek to crucify Christ afresh. Whether that can happen or is simply hypothetical and whether those who do not dwell according to the Bible after being saved were really ever saved to begin with is controversial. Hopefully this clears some things up though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Milovoriel 0 Report post Posted July 8, 2005 -Never hate anyone, since hatred is equated to murder. -Never tell a lie, however a small. -Never lust after someone you're married to, that's equated to adultery. -Never steal anything. And you feel that those "sins" are worthy of death? .... its a cheery wee faith you've got there .... frankly you're welcome to it .... hatred may lead to murder, but it's not equated to murder unless it's executed .... and why should married people not lust after each other? Someone has to pay for our crimes .... You might find this ridiculous but this means humans cannot say a murder or rapist or thief needs to be killed for their crimes by other humans since we are all guilty of death. Agreed, it is ridiculous, we most definately should pay for our crimes .... punishable by Law, (not by the death penalty, which is morally repugnant) ... you seem to be suggesting we should not punish criminals at all, they should live freely in society, committing crimes and remaining unpunished because they'll get theirs when they die .... leave it to your "God" to punish them, .... eh, I don't think so flower .... Hopefully this clears some things up though. Nope! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joshua 0 Report post Posted July 8, 2005 And you feel that those "sins" are worthy of death? .... its a cheery wee faith you've got there .... frankly you're welcome to it .... hatred may lead to murder, but it's not equated to murder unless it's executed .... and why should married people not lust after each other? Agreed, it is ridiculous, we most definately should pay for our crimes .... punishable by Law, (not by the death penalty, which is morally repugnant) ... you seem to be suggesting we should not punish criminals at all, they should live freely in society, committing crimes and remaining unpunished because they'll get theirs when they die .... leave it to your "God" to punish them, .... eh, I don't think so flower .... Nope! 158770[/snapback] Alright, forgot the "not", should be not married to. I don't check my posts much on this site since I can't edit them anyway, have seen way too many posting mistakes then I'd like... The thing with murder is that it's not just what we do that we are guilty of but what we'd do if we could get away with it and no one would know. If you've been so angry at someone you'd kill them if you could get away with it and no one else knowing but don't do it because that's not the case, does it make you any less guilty? Man looks on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart. God has permitted governments to exist on the Earth to keep some semblance of order until He does judge everything and to Christians it says not to resist governments but submit as long as submitting doesn't go against the Bible and to pursue peace with all men. I guess the thing you consider so improbably and distasteful a possibility has already happened to Christians because they acted in such a way. Just look at the early Christians, Anabaptists, who refused to fight back and were killed in droves, in some of the most horrendous ways you could think of. They died praising God and praying for their enemies and yet by the grace of God Anabaptists (though going by a slightly different name) still exist today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Saint_Michael 3 Report post Posted July 9, 2005 ok the first point i have to make is that KILLING SOMEONE CUZ GOD TOLD THEM IS %&@%&@% STUPID!!! Point 2 NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO ENDS LIVESPoint 3: RELIGION IS SOMETHING TO MAKE PEOPLE BELIEVE IN SOMETHINGPoint 4: PEOPLE ARE GULLIABLEPoint 5: THOSE WHO BELIEVE THAT KILLING IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO IS ARE !$^$#^#$ MORONS.Point 6: from what i read on this topic you people are really disturb and not thinking clearly.Ponit 7: if you do like what people are doing to run the government then you try to run it then se how easy it isPoint 8: as history shows the US Government did some ^$@%@ up stuff and we shouldn't have interfered well guess what IT TO DAMN LATE. Point 9: if i was muslim i would be damn that someone would ruin my life by using religion as way to kill people cuz they have nothing else better to do.and my final pointPoint 10: TALKING IS THE ONLY WYA TO TRUE PEACE!!! AND THE FACTS OF LIFE PEOPLE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joshua 0 Report post Posted July 9, 2005 ok the first point i have to make is that KILLING SOMEONE CUZ GOD TOLD THEM IS %&@%&@% STUPID!!! Point 2 NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO ENDS LIVES Point 3: RELIGION IS SOMETHING TO MAKE PEOPLE BELIEVE IN SOMETHING Point 4: PEOPLE ARE GULLIABLE Point 5: THOSE WHO BELIEVE THAT KILLING IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO IS ARE !$^$#^#$ MORONS. Point 6: from what i read on this topic you people are really disturb and not thinking clearly. Ponit 7: if you do like what people are doing to run the government then you try to run it then se how easy it is Point 8: as history shows the US Government did some ^$@%@ up stuff and we shouldn't have interfered well guess what IT TO DAMN LATE. Point 9: if i was muslim i would be damn that someone would ruin my life by using religion as way to kill people cuz they have nothing else better to do. and my final point Point 10: TALKING IS THE ONLY WYA TO TRUE PEACE!!! AND THE FACTS OF LIFE PEOPLE. 158974[/snapback] Interesting if controversial post as always Mike Let's see... Now for mine: Point 1: No one but God has the right to end lives, He's the only One sinless and perfect and the only just judge this universe has. Point 2: Science or any point of view is something to make people believe in something, what's your point? If no one believes in something how much is it really worth? Point 3: I've said before I've been against the Iraq War and all wars indeed, I've made the point before that to follow the Gospel means never fighting back against anyone and always returning good for evil. Take a look at how New Testament Christians like Paul, Stephen, Silas, and Barnabas acted towards others when they were persecuted. And to see the continuation of that, look at the Anabaptists who were burned at the stake, left out in the cold to freeze to death with their garments cut short, and even worse things like having your tongue fixed to a hot wheel and dragged around, burned in oil, etc... And while dying they forgave their enemies and prayed for them. You seem to think the Catholic Church which was doing the burnings and freezings and genocide is the example of Christianity, when it seems far more likely that the ones being killed by them like the Anabaptists carried on the ways of the early Church. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
