I Hate When People Ask Me My Religion.... Dont come in here if you cant have an inteligent discussion.

[Joshua 0]

to answer your (A) question, these are wrongful acts, yes, and the church you are vilifying, as well as other human beings alive today recognize that. but are the catholics alone guilty of such abominable atrocities and abuses? and vice versa, are catholics immune from such, that being catholic saves them from suffering the same hate crimes?

 

but let me paraphrase your question: what is christian love? digging up the mistakes of centuries past and overlooking the remorse and atonement done throughout the centuries, identifying the mistakes and errors of a few individuals of modern times to constitute as the mistakes of the whole group and institution, misleading people to believe on a history which is not put into the proper historical perspective simply because of arrogance and self-righteousness, vilifying a religion based on hearsay, muddled history and pompous pastoral motives....???

 

read the links i gave above. don't just gloss over them. few people hate the Catholic Church, but millions hate what they mistakenly think is the Catholic Church.

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Last I heard however, the Catholic Church hasn't apologized for the witch trials or Crusades or the Conquistadors... This isn't something done by a few but still condoned by the institution.

 

I read the first 2 links, the first seemed pretty accurate from what I saw while skimming over it, the 2nd is making a common error or else lie, in identifying anyone it doesn't like from the time period as anabaptist, an old ploy by the Catholic Church.

 

Here's are some selected historical statements concerning anabaptists from:

 

http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/

 

Zwingli, a Presbyterian co-laborer with John Calvin, said,

 

"The institution of the Anabaptists is no novelty, but for 1300 years has caused great trouble in the church." Catholic Cardinal Hosius, President of the Council of Trent from 1545 to 1564, said, "Were it not for the fact that the Baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past 1200 years, they would swarm greater than all the reformers If the truth of religion were to be judged by the readiness and boldness of which a man or any sect shows in suffering, then the opinions and persuasions of no sect can be truer and surer than those of the Anabaptist, since there have been none for the 1200 years past that have been more generally punished or that have been more cheerfully and steadfastly undergone, and have offered themselves to the most cruel sort of punishment than these people:'

Spurgeon said,

 

"History has hitherto been written by our enemies, who never would have kept a single fact about us upon the record if they could have helped it, and yet it leaks out every now and then that certain poor people called Anabaptists (Anabaptist was the name given to Baptists before the 16th century. "Ana" means "again," but the entire name, Anabaptist, was applied to those who believed and practiced what Bible-believing, separatist Baptists do today) were brought up for condemnation. From the days of Henry VIII to those of Elizabeth, we hear of certain unhappy heretics who were hated of all men for the truth's sake that was in them. We read of poor men and women, with their garments cut short, turned out into the fields to perish in the cold, and anon of others who were burnt at Newington for the crime of Anabaptism. Long before your Protestants were known of, those horrible Anabaptists, as they were unjustly called, were protesting for the 'one Lord, one faith, and one baptism.' No sooner did the visible church begin to depart from the Gospel than these m e n arose to keep fast by the good old way The priests and monks wished for peace and slumber, but there was always a Baptist or a Lollard tickling men's ears with Holy Scriptures, and calling their attention to the errors of the times. They were a poor persecuted tribe. The halter was thought to be too good for them. At times, ill-written history would have us think that they died out, so well had the wolf done his work on the sheep. Yet here we are, blessed and multiplied, and Newington sees other scenes from Sunday to Sunday As I think of the multitudes of your numbers and efforts, I can only say in wonder, 'What a growth!' As I think of the multitudes of our brethren in America, I can only say, 'What hath God wrought!' Our history forbids discouragements."

[ARNEL 0]

Your right most religion are almost the same, they believe in one GOD but in different ways.If you try to compared religion from one to another you might get confused, many religions exist especially today, don't want to mention any but there are many of them... All I know that going to church is a mandatory for the christian catholic, I know that because I am a christian catholic, Attending sunday mass is part of the 7 sacrament I'm not wrong,. but honestly sometimes I don't go to church, I believe in GOD for all of my heart, my soul and mind mind. but I am a sinner, If you were ask me if I will go to heaven, well I am hoping and pray, but because of those sins and all of those wrong doing, I hesitate I'm not... But still hoping and trying to do my best to become a good christian...Aside from christian catholic there are religions that almost the same as christian catholic, the worship GOD, they believe to GOD but they do it in different way the christian did.In my opinion I don't care about what religion you do have right now, the most important things is how to become a good son of GOD. and you do believe in GOD for all of your heart, soul and mind. Especially you must follow the 10 commandments of god... that's more important... no matter what religion you are...Some religions don't follow these commandments.

[Joshua 0]

Your right most religion are almost the same, they believe in one GOD but in different ways.

 

If you try to compared religion from one to another you might get confused, many religions exist especially today, don't want to mention any but there are many of them... All I know that going to church is a mandatory for the christian catholic, I know that because I am a christian catholic, Attending sunday mass is part of the 7 sacrament I'm not wrong,. but honestly sometimes I don't go to church, I believe in GOD for all of my heart, my soul and mind mind. but I am a sinner, If you were ask me if I will go to heaven, well I am hoping and pray, but because of those sins and all of those wrong doing, I hesitate I'm not... But still hoping and trying to do my best to become a good christian...

 

Aside from christian catholic there are religions that almost the same as christian catholic, the worship GOD, they believe to GOD but they do it in different way the christian did.

 

In my opinion I don't care about what religion you do have right now, the most important things is how to become a good son of GOD.  and you do believe in GOD for all of your heart, soul and mind. 

 

Especially you must follow the 10 commandments of god... that's more important... no matter what religion you are...

 

Some religions don't follow these commandments.

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My friend, we all all guilty, as it says in Romans 3:19, all the world is guilty before God. And as it says in Galatians 2:16 by the works of the Law will no flesh be justified. There is no way to reach God through being good enough or doing good enough things. There is noone you can pray to, noone who can help bring you to God, but Jesus Christ alone. He is the only way to the Father and eternal life, and His is the only name given under Heaven that we need to know to be saved.

 

Like Abraham, it is by trusting in God, in Jesus Christ alone, that He will save us, if we are trusting in our own works, or Mary, or anyone else to save us He will not answer. We are the children of Abraham through faith in God and thus in Jesus Christ alone. Mere knowledge of God is not enough, as said in James 2:19-20, even the devils believe in God, and tremble, and without works that faith is dead. But as said, works can never save us, and so it is faith in Jesus Christ alone, trusting in Him to save us, that we can reach God. Faith as belief in one God, or intellectual orthodoxy cannot save, this is the faith which can:

 

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[serverph 0]

Last I heard however, the Catholic Church hasn't apologized for the witch trials or Crusades or the Conquistadors...  This isn't something done by a few but still condoned by the institution. 

i see. last you heard... from your pastor, i believe? have you "heard" of them in a historical context? or would you care to hear them at all?

http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/

http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/

 

I read the first 2 links, the first seemed pretty accurate from what I saw while skimming over it, the 2nd is making a common error or else lie, in identifying anyone it doesn't like from the time period as anabaptist, an old ploy by the Catholic Church. 

 

just the first 2 links? and just skimming? "common error or else lie"? considering the possibilities of "common error or else lie" against anabaptists, have you considered the possibilities of "common error or else lie" against the catholic church? would you? being a fundamentalist and an anti-catholic?

http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/

http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/

[Joshua 0]

I read through your new links (except for the 3rd since it was just a large collection of links) and still see nothing claiming such things were wrong and in several cases simply further attempts to defend them...

From this fourth link of yours it says:

Ultimately, it may be a waste of time arguing about statistics. Instead, ask Fundamentalists just what they think the existence of the Inquisition demonstrates. They would not bring it up in the first place unless they thought it proves something about the Catholic Church. And what is that something? That Catholics are sinners? Guilty as charged. That at times people in positions of authority have used poor judgment? Ditto. That otherwise good Catholics, afire with zeal, sometimes lose their balance? All true, but such charges could be made even if the Inquisition had never existed and perhaps could be made of some Fundamentalists.

The Bible says you will know them by their works and if an institution has not only proven that it will continuously kill whoever stands in its way but still says it is alright to kill again then I would say that counts as bad works. Whatever happened to Christ saying to turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and as Paul said, to let vengeance be God's, and for us to not give place to wrath, to not be overcome with evil but to overcome evil with good?

The things in the past are bad but what makes it even more troubling is that the Catholic Church shows every inclination of doing such things again given the opportunity, because it still says it is alright for those other than God to take the lives of others even though since we are all guilty God alone can be a just judge and taker of life.

[serverph 0]

I read through your new links (except for the 3rd since it was just a large collection of links) and still see nothing claiming such things were wrong and in several cases simply further attempts to defend them...

i really would want to help you understand catholics and catholicism better before you judge the entire institution, but you just refuse to read the anti-catholic tracts and its defensein light of history, and conveniently dismissing the 3rd collection of links, don't you? i would leave that to your discretion anyway if you read them or not. but here are more links for you, just don't be overwhelmed. if you are not overwhelmed with the 2000+ years history of the church, you should not have any problems with these.

http://w2.vatican.va/content/vatican.html

http://w2.vatican.va/content/vatican.html

http://w2.vatican.va/content/vatican.html

http://w2.vatican.va/content/vatican.html

 

From this fourth link of yours it says: Ultimately, it may be a waste of time arguing about statistics. Instead, ask Fundamentalists just what they think the existence of the Inquisition demonstrates. They would not bring it up in the first place unless they thought it proves something about the Catholic Church. And what is that something? That Catholics are sinners? Guilty as charged. That at times people in positions of authority have used poor judgment? Ditto. That otherwise good Catholics, afire with zeal, sometimes lose their balance? All true, but such charges could be made even if the Inquisition had never existed and perhaps could be made of some Fundamentalists.

well, condemm catholics all you want then. we acknowledge being sinners in varying times of our church and personal history. and we ask penance and do right where we can. but then again, we also recognize that for some, no apology will ever be enough, until catholics apologize for their very existence.

 

The Bible says you will know them by their works and if an institution has not only proven that it will continuously kill whoever stands in its way but still says it is alright to kill again then I would say that counts as bad works.  Whatever happened to Christ saying to turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and as Paul said, to let vengeance be God's, and for us to not give place to wrath, to not be overcome with evil but to overcome evil with good?

actually, that the same question i've been trying to ask you all this time. but i guess, you hold it's understanding differently from what the general populace understands it.

 

The things in the past are bad but what makes it even more troubling is that the Catholic Church shows every inclination of doing such things again given the opportunity, because it still says it is alright for those other than God to take the lives of others even though since we are all guilty God alone can be a just judge and taker of life.

this is a simplistic account of the catholic church, and even contrived to say the least. it's made out of either hatred, or ignorance, or both. i will let the readers assess it for themselves.

 

we digressed a lot in relation to the topic of this thread... but for me, it does not hold water to judge a person just because of his/her religion, or even with the absence of religion in some cases. i look past beyond one's religion. religion is a brand which i recognize does not encompass the totality of a person. and judging a person based on it is just succumbing to stereotypes perpetrated by traditions, culture and media.

[Joshua 0]

i really would want to help you understand catholics and catholicism better before you judge the entire institution, but you just refuse to read the anti-catholic tracts and its defensein light of history, and conveniently dismissing the 3rd collection of links, don't you? i would leave that to your discretion anyway if you read them or not. but here are more links for you, just don't be overwhelmed. if you are not overwhelmed with the 2000+ years history of the church, you should not have any problems with these.

http://w2.vatican.va/content/vatican.html

http://w2.vatican.va/content/vatican.html

http://w2.vatican.va/content/vatican.html

http://w2.vatican.va/content/vatican.html

http://w2.vatican.va/content/vatican.html

well, condemm catholics all you want then. we acknowledge being sinners in varying times of our church and personal history. and we ask penance and do right where we can. but then again, we also recognize that for some, no apology will ever be enough, until catholics apologize for their very existence.

actually, that the same question i've been trying to ask you all this time. but i guess, you hold it's understanding differently from what the general populace understands it.

this is a simplistic account of the catholic church, and even contrived to say the least. it's made out of either hatred, or ignorance, or both. i will let the readers assess it for themselves.

 

we digressed a lot in relation to the topic of this thread... but for me, it does not hold water to judge a person just because of his/her religion, or even with the absence of religion in some cases. i look past beyond one's religion. religion is a brand which i recognize does not encompass the totality of a person. and judging a person based on it is just succumbing to stereotypes perpetrated by traditions, culture and media.

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Does or does not the Catholic Church say it still has the right to take the lives of others? I read of a pope saying that because of the Inquisition and what not it meant the Catholic Church did have the right to take life. I have never heard that recanted by the organization before, do you know of it being recanted? All your sites failed to show me any suggestion that it has.

 

And I was not judging people because of their religion, I was judging the religion and its institution itself.

[serverph 0]

Does or does not the Catholic Church say it still has the right to take the lives of others?  I read of a pope saying that because of the Inquisition and what not it meant the Catholic Church did have the right to take life.  I have never heard that recanted by the organization before, do you know of it being recanted?  All your sites failed to show me any suggestion that it has.

really? you read of a pope saying the church has the right to take life? and in such absolute terms? anyway, what kind of recantation do you need if you cannot glean it from what you have so far read in the pages i gave? do you also want it to be in absolutes? will i have to do all the scholarly work for you? didn't you realize that asking for forgiveness for mistakes of the past is in recognition that it was wrong? didn't you realize that the inquisition has been abolished long centuries ago?

 

And I was not judging people because of their religion.

 

thank God!

 

I was judging the religion and its institution itself.

then i suggest you don't dispel any information you can. be more inquisitive (not to be a pun for "inquisition" though ). be more vigilant. be more scholarly. be more open-minded. you will be a better judge in years to come if you can weigh all things in perspective, in time and space.

[green fairy 0]

I do not have any specific religion myself. That does not mean I'm an atheist, I just can see the reasons why I should believe something instead of something else. To me, all of the different religions sound just as probable/improbable. I simply can't believe anything written in the bible without questioning it. Also I don't understand people growing up believing something and devoting their whole life to a religion just because that is what their parents believe. Doesn't that make you a bit blind? Why be a buddist just because your mum is? With all this different religions, I don't see how you can just pick one to believe, saying everything else is wrong. With all the diversities, it can't all be true, leaving a whole lot of people believing in things that don't exist... I can't help getting angry when I hear about people looking down at others for not believing what they do, saying they're doomed or something. How do they know? I don't judge people for their religion because I don't understand it myself. I'm open to anything, and would really like to understand religion a bit better... So that's my opinions... hope I'm not offending anyone by saying this. Most people in Noway arn't very religious. My parents are sort of christian I guess, but I'm glad they're letting me believe what I want.

[Joshua 0]

I do not have any specific religion myself. That does not mean I'm an atheist, I just can see the reasons why I should believe something instead of something else. To me, all of the different religions sound just as probable/improbable. I simply can't believe anything written in the bible without questioning it. Also I don't understand people growing up believing something and devoting their whole life to a religion just because that is what their parents believe. Doesn't that make you a bit blind? Why be a buddist just because your mum is? With all this different religions, I don't see how you can just pick one to believe, saying everything else is wrong. With all the diversities, it can't all be true, leaving a whole lot of people believing in things that don't exist... I can't help getting angry when I hear about people looking down at others for not believing what they do, saying they're doomed or something. How do they know? I don't judge people for their religion because I don't understand it myself. I'm open to anything, and would really like to understand religion a bit better... So that's my opinions... hope I'm not offending anyone by saying this. Most people in Noway arn't very religious. My parents are sort of christian I guess, but I'm glad they're letting me believe what I want.

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Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

Note that the Bible calls noble those who genuinely question what it says and search it honestly to see whether such things are so, so long as they do so with all readiness of mind.

 

I'm not sure where this idea came in that blind faith is required, Ravi Zecharias, Josh McDowell, and C.S. Lewis, along with Paul all use reason. In Acts 17:3 we see Paul "opening and alleging" with the Greeks, legal terms used of a lawyer's action to present his case.

[Goosestaf 0]

Was Queuing up for a Nine Inch nails gig (NIN) the other day, lined up roudn the side of the venue (Brixton Carling Academy, England)and some bible basher came walkign down the line preaching. I mean was this relaly the ebst palce for him to be. . . . .? He walked by and said "are you a follower of god"so i said, "no, science is gd enuff for me"so he replied with "Science doesnt have all the answers"so i said "neither does religion, relgion is just all stories"so he said "the path of god is one to true happiness and guidence to heaven"so i said "Believe it if you will, but i don't care. Why waste your life in belief of something which can't be proven to be true"so he said "i hope one day you can be enlightened"then the line started moving . . . .*phew*i mean religion is fine, but DON'T TRY AND CONVERT ME OR TELL ME THAT ITS BETTER THAN MY LIFE AND MY WAY OF LIVING IS WRONG. because that simply isn't true. . . . . . I don't need religion . . . . . I see no reason in it . . . i jsut really don'tMaybe i will see a reason to become religious later on in life. . . and if i do it will most liekly be Budhism. . . . as its the least threatening.

[iwuvcookies 0]

I just hate when people diss my religion in front of me. I don't want to hear all that crap. I don't mind you telling me about your religion just don't point out the wrong things with my religion. its just annoying. its like talking about you infront of your face. And people who try to convert is annoying. keeping knocking on my door. sometimse i dont' open. lol. They see we have like buddha figures and they still try to convert us.

[Joshua 0]

I just hate when people diss my religion in front of me. I don't want to hear all that crap. I don't mind you telling me about your religion just don't point out the wrong things with my religion. its just annoying. its like talking about you infront of your face. And people who try to convert is annoying. keeping knocking on my door. sometimse i dont' open. lol. They see we have like buddha figures and they still try to convert us.

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Darkness loves darkness, and hates the light. What you're saying essentially is you only want to hear what you already believe and what won't prove your beliefs wrong. If someone were to reasonably sit down and discuss something with you, not trying to pass some private interpretation to you that needed you to read some book, without getting angry or yelling to try and emphasize their points and override yours, if they were just going to sit down and use logic to convey their points, would you listen if it wasn't something you wanted to hear?

 

A closed mind is not one that doesn't have set beliefs, but that refuses to hear out other beliefs for fear they will shake a person's faith in what they believe. Light doesn't fear darkness for light reveals all that comes to it. But darkness will not come to the light for it will cease to exist.

 

I guess the thing I most object to is your saying you don't want to hear wrong things with what you believe, in other words, you're essentially saying you're happy with the lies you know and don't want to hear anything that shakes your faith in them, correct? Otherwise, why would you not want them to "point out the wrong things with my religion", essentially that admits that there are wrong things with your religion, along with admitting that you are refusing to look at them.

 

Wasn't this whole post started so we could reasonably discuss "intelligently" what we believe with logic and not simply accusations or charachter assassination? Was that not the spirit with which this topic was started? Or am I wrong in this?