Misanthrope

Wow. KuBi mentioned you can tell a lot about a person by the way he posts, and what you've just done in front of the whole wide world demonstrates your excellent quality. That took a lot of courage, and I thank you for your kind sentiments. As for me, I'm far from perfect. In fact, many of the posters on this thread have the intellectual edge on me (and they're not veggy heads). But I've never been one to hold a grudge of any sort, especially something so insignificant in the grand scheme of things. So yes, I'm cool with forgetting "things" said and moving forward. I have a very short memory anyway. Don't be sorry. If we all agreed on everything it would make for a very boring forum. I think a topic detailing the mountain dwellers secrets of youth would be quite.......fascinating. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some Reflections on This Thread: I was thinking of other ways I might have titled this thread in a way less threatening to some readers. "High IQ Linked to Vegetarianisim: Post your comments," came to mind. But then I started searching other forums on other sites that dared to tackle this topic, I found the responses from posters were quite similar to those on this thread. In other words, they were still threatened despite the unprovoking nature of the title. The mere word, "vegetarian" was enough to get them going: http://www.aol.com// So, I've come to the conclusion it doesn?t matter how this topic is presented to the general public. Many will react defensively regardless. I asked my meat-eating sister about this phenomenon, to get a better handle on the psychology of it. She said it bothers her when I mention vegetarianism because she doesn?t like to think too hard about meat, or where it comes from. It makes her feel guilty. This struck a chord with me. In most of civilized society, people buy their meat from the grocery store. The carcass is injected with red dye to hide the decay, it is neatly packaged in saran wrap, and my sister never has to think about how it went from being a living, breathing animal to a slab of flesh on her plate. She never has to think about the tortured existence that cow, pig, goat or chicken endured on a factory farm before suffering a horrible death. She never asks herself, do I really need to keep doing this? No, she never thinks about these things until I mention vegetarianism ? and she?d rather I not.

Brillianty put, KuBi! I can see why you're a moderator as you have a keen ability to remain impartial. Thank you for helping me explain what I've obviously been too stupid to put into words thus far. Personally, I find it very unproductive when a virtual stranger claims to know me better than I know myself - which is exactly what happens when you put words in someone elses mouth. To illustrate, a poster recently claimed to know my personal reasons for starting this thread. They were derogatory accusations aimed at me as a person (as opposed to general comment about humanity at large). I didn't feel this attack on my personality did anything to further a good debate. I hope we can all follow KuBi's excellent advice, and stick to the topic at hand. I know I will try my best.

The helping people phrase sounds vaguely familiar, similar to something in my disclaimer (see below). Regardless, we are not here to judge each others reasons for posting topics at the Trap. In my book, thats akin to targeting a specific individual for insults because you dont agree with her opinion. It has nothing to do with reasonable disagreement and is based on an emotional trigger. Some might refer to it as flaming. If you are not here to fight with anyone, as you claim, you may want to refrain from insulting my personality in the future, as you just did in the above quote. I respectfully disagree with this argument. So do the experts. I plan to post information on this subject in coming topics on nutrition.

I don't recall asking this question in any of my posts, but thank you. I agree completely. The collective mentality seems to want to accept anything in print or on TV as truth. I become especially skeptical when the subject matter involves politics or is funded by pharmecuetical and other big business. That is why I place so much creedence in the results of the study in question. It was not funded by drug money, so to speak. No, absolutely not. It appeared to me you were implying a lot more in previous posts, and you certainly have every right to if that's your opinion. Regardless, journalists have the burden of presenting information in a venacular the population at large can understand. With that in mind, it is my opinion the study in question was acurately presented. And I say that from a critical perspective. Einstein himself could not answer this question. And I think you and I will have to respectfully disagree with the definition, as there are apparently more than one based on the discipline. Well, my issue with your issue is the potential hypocracy inherent in the argument. I suspect you might not have these concerns if the study's results concluded meat eaters are smarter. No apology is necessary, and I don't think you sound tedious. Thank you for posting on this thread.

It appears the author, jhsmurray, put a fair amount of time and energy into this post. A cursory glance at his posts elsewhere on the forum show this is one of his longest, and he?s posted no less than three times on this thread. Why do I mention this? To illustrate the point that vegetarianism puts many on the offensive, often illiciting strong emotion. Even in those who would have us believe otherwise. We are, after all, flesh and blood? not machine. I question weather certain points as presented in this post are appropriate for a forum that caters to laymen. I am neither an accredited statistical anyalist or social scientist, and I imagine the same is true of most at this forum. Still, I will do my best to respond to this post, including it?s pre-edited version: I deducted several things from the study, most importantly the fascinating link between IQ and lifestyle choice; in this case ? vegetarianism. I cannot speak for what you got out of it, though I can?t discount your personal interpretation. Define "circumstance" as used in this statement. I'm guessing the word "coincidence" may have been the word intended? Still, I?m not sure how the results of a 30 year study can be mere circumstance or coincidence. Several articles were published on the subject, both in alternative and mainstream sources. I'm not sure which one is being referred to in this statement. At any rate, I see no reason why some enthusiasm is not in order given the results of this study. Aggrandizing, on the other hand, would hardly seem necessary for the same reason. Further, the fact you have issue with how the study was portrayed in some news sources does nothing to discount the credibility of the study itself. But the study did not reach this conclusion. If it had, I doubt it would be so quickly discounted among those horrified at it?s results. What if I were starving and the only thing available was a rotting carcass? I?m sure you get the point. I am not a social scientist, and if I were, I wouldn't be discussing it's anal details on this site, but one that caters to them. My humble credentials lie in the liberal arts. I suppose I could post a topic on Bach, then ramble on about his use of counterpoint and parallel thirds. But I suspect that would not spur on meaningful debate at this forum. I would make better use of my time debating the tedious details of music theory on a dedicated theory site. What does constitute scientific proof? A brilliant man once answered this question as follows: "The question," he wrote, "is much too difficult for me." His name was Albert Einstein. I?m not seeing how the results of a 30 year scientific study can be downgraded to a mere ?opinion.? If ?that?s not really the point of this thread,? one has to wonder why this has been the major focus of this author's post.

No - the quote at the beginning of this thread does not SPECIFICALLY state vegetarianism in and of itself causes higher IQ. What it does state is that those who chose a vegetarian diet have higher IQ. It does not say why. What it does do is leave the door open to further scrutiny and debate. No - I found nothing in the study to leave the impression the scientific results were "mere conjecture." On the contary, they are the result of a 30 year study involving more than 8,000 subjects. The quotes you posted were taken form the study's discussion section, and not the actual scientific conclusion. To clarify the study's validity, I'll quote the following taken from the same source: That does not sound like mere conjecture to me.

Yrortarm! I see youre back. I thank you for posting again, but no one, least of all me, is forcing you to continually make posts on this topic. You did, after all, state that your last post was your final word at this thread. If you find the process of posting on this topic tedious, by all means, feel free to stop anytime. Youve obviously been tracking the status of this particular post hardly the behavior of someone who finds the subject matter tedious and without merit. Further, I believe I have the right to title my posts in any way I choose, within forum guidelines. Its really not up to you to pass moral judgement regarding whether my title is up to par, or good enough for your implied standards. None of us are perfect here. I wouldnt think of passing moral judgment on any of your topic titles. Lets strive to leave bruised and fragile egos out of this thread. It makes for a much more logical debate. I respect your personal philosophy, so please respect mine. Surely we can differ on opinion and still maintain some semblance of adult composure. So lets leave ego and sophomoric jabs out of this and introduce logic and reason, for a change. Now then, the reputable sources I mentioned are just that reputable. They are documented and based on SCIENTIFIC studies. Im not so sure you can provide scientific data to support your personal beliefs and experiences. I think thats incredible! Ive always heard rumors of people with great endurance, health and longevity who populate areas of the Himalayas, specifically, the Hunzas. As we discussed in previous correspondence, this is due largely in part to the clean air, lack of garbage in the food supply, etc. Someday, I hope someone documents all this and puts forth scientific data to support these claims. Thus far, they remain unproven to the Western world. I also think it would be fascinating to visit someday. I always find it strange there isnt more talk of these mysterious people in the mainstream media. Maybe they dont want the rest of us to discover this Nirvana - this Heaven on Earth, you've apparently stumbled upon. Wow! I love this paragraph. It has the makings of an enlightened book, poem, or even movie written all over it. But your opinions on vegetarianism fall very much within the status quo, and lead me to question various claims you've made. This faulty logic is often placed before the vegetarian or anyone trying to follow a path of discipline. Im sure others placed the seeds of doubts before you when you chose your given path. One can always make excuses and choose the path of least resistance. But when it comes to diet, the reality is: 1. I am not starving, and 2. Im not living in the Dark Ages when choices were few. Today, choices are many. So, I say we take the progressive opportunities given us, and move forward, not backward. These findings are the result of a scientific, IMPARTIAL study conducted at Southampton University in Great Brittan. The fact that you personally find the study without merit does not discount its credibility.

Wow - what an excellent post. I'm always appalled at the new and creative ways banks, and corporations in general, find to cheat and bamboozle the public. The scary part is that our dollar is worth so much less today, so you don't even have what you think you have in your bank account. And the Federal Reserve keeps churning out fiat dollars that are no longer backed by the gold standard. Curious, when the elite run out of money they can create it out of thin air. The rest of us aren't so lucky. Buy gold!!!

Hi Sprnknwn! Those are very valid points you make, especially about some vegetarians feeling superior. I've noticed this annoying quality when I vist some health food stores. Some of the shoppers (many of whom I suspect are vegetarian) seem to think they're better than everyone else just because they're shopping at an "exclusive" store. But then, you can see this in all of life's venues, not just vegetarianism. Some folks think they're better because they live in nice neighborhoods, or drive fancy cars. The list goes on. My observation about slowing myself down to adjust to SOME people is just that - an observation. There are certain traditions that expound on this pheonomonon further, and I was merely giving my own personal take on it. I also think it makes for an interesting analogy. I can assure you, Sprnknwn, I don't think myself better than anyone else. I'm just another soul traversing the wheel of life. In fact, I've already discovered another reader on this thread who has a vastly higher IQ than mine, and he eats meat! That proves the study on !Q and vegetarians is a generalization of the population. There will always be acceptions to any scientific study. Thank you for responding to my post!

Hmm, I am not at all surprised by the amount of interest this topic is getting – especially considering its’ title. It's obviously valid enough to garner several responses from you thus far! As I’ve mentioned adnausem, I’m fully aware the provocative nature of my post; therefore, it should come as no surprise to one as smart as yourself this topic garnered so much interest. Nor was the intent behind it in anyway “misguided” or lacking intellectual merit. Indeed, this thread has fulfilled it’s purpose, that is, it has attracted many viewers and caused them to reflect and look inward, if only for a short while, about something they wouldn’t ordinarily contemplate. How often are people presented with that opportunity? Certainly not from the mass media, which forces the populace to look OUTSIDE themselves for personal fufilment, never questioning the status quo as they carry on like good little “sheeple.” Understand: I believe in self-empowerment of the individual, but the person has to self-examine himself to truly know himself. The questions he must ask are not always pleasant or comfortable. Like archetypal heroes of old who descended to Hades before reaching illumination, the individual must at times explore the depths of his own soul before reaching Nirvana. That, Yratorm, is why this thread was titled the way it was. Lets be honest here: none of us are dieticians (that I'm aware of) and can only speak from personal experience, which is all fine and dandy. But the scientific statistics remain clear: those who adopt and stick to a vegetarian diet have higher IQs and suffer less disease. I can provide links from reputable sources which prove these facts to anyone who asks. I'd be interested to see if you can do the same to support your personal opinion. I hope this is the last time I have to say this: no one is questioning the intelligence of any individual reading this thread. On the contrary, anyone who opened, read and responded to this thread is to be commended for having the werewithall to question the status quo, and is therefore, quite smart in my book. If you somehow interpret the premise of this title as an attack on your own intelligence, than your ego is in control and, unfortunately, you’re only scratching the surface of this topic (no offense). I couldn’t disagree more with this erroneous statement. The vegetarian diet saves lives, human and non-human. It encourages self reflection and a desire to help all living things. And that, my dear Yratorm, is most intelligent.

Saint Michael! Thank you for your excellent response to this topic. It really encourages me to see intelligent folks like you and so many others interested in this worthy issue. But I would like to clear up just a few points for posterity. Firstly, I consider myself an American patriot and want only the best for my countrymen. And it saddens me to see so many under the spell of the mass media, who in my humble opinion - do not have the best interest of the people at heart. I feel they have taken the greatest country on earth and turned it into something less than what was to be it's "manifest destiny." With the advent of mass media, many have stopped thinking for themselves and take what they're fed from the TV or newspaper to be gospel truth. Part of that involves the overuse of meat, as it is constantly advertised and readily available at fast food chains. Why won't they serve healthy food at these places? These are questions we need to ask ourselves. Secondly, no one is questioning your intelligence, Saint Michael. I personally think you're quite smart, or you wouldn't be posting on a topic like this one. Thirdly, I fully understand this is a VERY provacative topic, one that illicits deep emotion and strong opinions in people. My hope is that this subject will spur the reader on to self-examination of mores and values previously unquestioned or taken for granted to be true. As they say, "The unexamined life is not worth living." In the process, I find your all your excellent comments and suggestions cause me to do the same. KuBi! You are absolutely right. There are always two sides of the story and I appreciate the differing opinions each and everyone of you have given. This seems, however, a topic that encourages REALLY strong opinions in folks, and lots of them have been less-than-nice toward vegetarians. But that's to be expected, and I take no offense to any of it. All the better for a good debate!

Hi KuBi, sorry you took offense at that statement. It's merely an observation and not meant to be aimed at any particular individual. Parallel, if you will, the various less-than-complimentary observations stated about vegetarians on this post. If I chose, I could easily be offended by most of them. But what would be the point? I might as well just throw in the towell and stop reading other people's opinions if that's the case. Again, no offense was meant toward you, and thank you for your response.

Cangor! What's a super-intelligent guy like you doing on this planet? Your IQ is literally higher than Albert Einstein's, who had a mere 160 IQ. I'm honored someone of your intelligence responded to my post. Well, I'll give you the one about vegetarians not being "completely there." When the conversation turns tedious, I'm definitely somewhere else.

SensibleWebmaster! I couldn't help but be intrigued by your following statement: I always feel like the rest of the world is moving in slow motion: like I have to somehow slow myself down -physically and mentally, to somewhow relate to the vast majority. Do you feel the same way when you abstain from eating dead animals? I imagine some of that has to do with how much harder meat is to digest than other foods. I also put some credence in that old maxim, "You are what you eat," and I think people tend to take on the characteristics of the animals they consume. As an example, in America, where poeple eat a lot of beef, some are like cattle. Like cows, they become slow, dimwitted, very large.....and most importantly, very easy to lead to slaughter (I mean that figuratively). Easily deceived by their media and government, they are slow to recognize these entities as their true enemies. While taking to them, I often feel as if I'm looking into the eyes of herd animal and not those of human being. Disclaimer: the cow parallel is merely an observation of SOME people I've come into contact with in the states, and not meant as a personal attack on any one individual reading this post. So please do not interpert it as such.

Hi Crayolabox, no offense taken. As I may have mentioned before, this study was done under scientific conditions involving more than 8,000 subjects, and the results were confirmed. That is, folks who chose and stuck with a vegetarian diet ended up having 5 IQ points over their meat-eating brethern after all was said and done. That said, your comment about not necessarily getting smarter by what you eat has some validity, because the study did not go into any further depth than to simply measure dietary choices and IQ. The vegetarian diet provides everything the body needs. Whole cultures (the Hindus of India for example) live out their entire lives on this diet quite healthily, thank you. The seventh day adventists of the United States live on average (don't quote me on this) 10 years beyond the national average, and suffer significantly less heart disease, cancer, and so forth. This diet often opens whole new worlds for afficiandos, who find themselves experimenting with ethnic foods they might never have discovered otherwise. Adding different textures, colors, and flavors to your diet is a good thing, and provides the body with the variety it craves and needs to operate at it's full potential. As far as protein goes, Americans, in particular, tend to get too much of it. Have you personally met anyone suffering from protein deficiency? Neither have I. This myth of protein only being available in meat was convieniently perpetuated by the beef industry. Go figure.

Great! Thank you all. for your responses. I'll try both the Health and fitness (thank you Yratorm) and Science and Nature as suggested by Saint Micheal (what an awesome name). I also thought the subject of "pets" would be interesting. Especially for all us kitty-cat lovers!Cheers,vbritton

Yratorm, my friend! Again, thank you for subimtting your personal and learned input. The truth is, most of us ARE NOT putting our body through extreme, physical hardship. Even so, some of the world's top brass have chosen a vegan and/or vegetarian diet for the very reasons you describe you prefer to consume flesh. Performing artist, Madonna, chose to adopt a vegetarian diet after undergoing the rigours of the stage and touring life, but she also has a Kabalistic spirituality backing up her beliefs. Hers is physically intense stage show. She is in her 40's and has the body of an 18 year old. In fact, I was a professional musician performing a solo act at the time I decided to adopt a vegan (not just vegetarian) lifestyle. To clarify for our readers, I did not consume animal products of any kind. I did not practice food combining of any sort. The hours of this profession were rigourous, and I was responsible for loading, hauling and unloading very heavy PA equipment, as well as managing the sound while on stage. I performed until 2am, and often later if at a casino - on my feet for most of the time strapped to a heavy Gibson guitar, with people literally blowing their smoke in my face. I was on the road a good portion of the time with limmited access to the kind of food I would have really preferred. At the end of the gig, I had to tear everything down and haul it out again. If there are any musicians out there reading this post, you know how physically intensive this line of work is. Anyway, my point is, I don't believe I could have withstood this sort of physical (and mental) activity had I been on the standard American, meat and potatoes diet. Leaving off the cheese and eggs also helped me on the road when I didn't have access to organic products. I believe the body is the temple of the holy spirit, and as such, is an extension of our innate godhood - that small spark that will grow if we give it half a chance. Therefore, I conclude it DOES care what we put in to it. You live a somewhat idealistic life on the steppes of the Himalayan mountains, where you breathe fresh air and the meat you do consume has not been subject to hormones and antibiotics. You are free to pursue the lifestyle of your choice and practice your "Ninja," craft, as Ellen so eloquently puts it. Many readers, I suspect, wish they were in your situation. Not everyone; however, is as willing to give of themself as you. To your credit, you have chosen to share the vast knowledge you've gained from your situation with the masses. And for that, we are all grateful. Um, I'm not sure how to respond to most of your post, but I would like to address the following statement: For the record, this information is not a fabrication. It is the result of a SCIENTIFIC study, and the results are conclusive. According to the British Medical Journal, no less than 8,179 subjects were involved. That's a lot of people! The study was published in various medical journals, and recently brought to the fore via BBC news. Let me know if you'd like links to these sources. I'd be happy to oblige.

Sweetscape! What a great handle... Yes, it does throw a pie in the face of that whole carbohydrate scam, doesn't it? On a personal note, I am vegetarian and I'd say I probably consume more carbs that your average flesh eater. And still, I'm on the thin side and don't count calories. I do avoid anything white, i.e. refined. I also shy away from wheat because where I come from, unless it's organic, it's genetically modified. I also believe Americans tend to eat way too much of it, creating a saturation effect that manifests in disease and weight issues. When I want wheat I find certain varieties of beer to be the best source. Cheers! On the issue of Veganism, I lived this lifestyle for several years and found it quite exhilarating. I went back to eating dairy and eggs due to pure hedonism and for the sake of convienience, not because my body felt it was missing out nutritionally. I submit that people eat meat for the same reason. Not because they need "animal fat," but simply because they crave the taste. It's proven the human animal does not need meat; on the contrary, the human animal thrives without it. Therefore, it all comes down to hedonism.

Hello Trap 17 Administrators:I have a suggestion for this excellent forum:How about adding a category that covers the following topics:Philosophy (Plato to Neitche: Existentialism, Nihlsm, etc.)Spirituality (Meditation, Dream-work, etc.)Religious Traditions (Catholicsm to Wicca)Metaphysics (Universal Science)Currently, members who have interest in these topics are posting at "Health & Fitness," but they really need their own section. Thanks for your consideration!

I suppose it's all a matter of prioriites, isn't it? If your idea of a good time is seeing how far you can throw a football accross a muddy field, than no, I suppose five IQ points wouldn't seem like much. In the world of the learned, a single IQ point can mean the difference between attaining MENSA status or wallowing in mental obscurity. My suspicion is, if you were smart enough to respond to a post on Vegetarianism, than five IQ points probably mean more to you than you'd like to admit. Please keep checking back at this category and I'll have more on the subject. Until then, thank you for your input.

Ellen - I'm so glad you brought up topics that promote self awareness and spiritual growth. These endeavors are overlooked in modern society in favor of mundane (and what I find boring) trivialities.Personally, I couldn't care less about which football team is playing Monday night, or who won on American Idol. I don't care who Brad Pit is getting married or divorced to this year. And I really don't care what color Oprah is wearing to the academy awards. Unfortunatley, this is what the majority cares about. You are obviously (and thankfully) not in the majority.What I do care about is elevating humanity to the level it should be at this point in time. I think we're running behind schedule. In fact, I think we have de-evolved to the point we no longer have great masters of the humanities in our midst. Where are the Mozarts, Davincis and Platos? It's up to people such as yourself to keep the common consciousness from slipping into complete oblivion.

FLaKes: There's nothing "unbalanced" about a vegetarian diet. And the simple fact that you enjoy the taste of flesh foods doesn't mean you need to continue devouring animals. I enjoyed throwing eggs at cars as a child, but I wouldn't do it now as an adult, since I know it's wrong. You probably will, initially, throw off some pounds switching to a vegetarian diet. Indeed, that's one the factors that entices some people into the lifestyle to begine with. After your body adjusts to it's new-found state of health, it will regain equalibrium and you will feel a sense of "lightenss of being," as many others have experienced. I've been vegetarian since age 7, so I can't speak from personal experience. I was really too young at the time to remember any profound change. I do recall, though, suffering much less in the way of sickness as my classmated - who always seemed to be coming down with the flu. Others who've made the quantum leap to vegetarianism in adulthood describe feeling less earthbound. Yratorm! As always , a pleasure to hear from you. The more I grapple with life's eternal questions the more I realize I don't know. I've spent a good portion of my life trying to know the unknowable, which has driven me to the point of throwing in the towel on more than one occasion. Now, I've come to accept that I will never know it all - at least in this lifetime. But tossing around my conjectures can be a whole lotta fun. And going in to research with this attitude is a lot less tedious. I don't trust in Science to provide all the answers in it's current state. No, not unless Science starts catching up with metaphysical thought. Interesting that you would mention your presence in the Himilayan region. I was going to bring up the topic of the long-lived Hunzas, who, I've read routinely live past the 100 mark. I'm also told their diet is almost exclusivley vegetarian. Whether or not this is an urban legend, I imagine you would have a better handle on. I'd like to hear your insight on this when you have the time. Another cat lover! My precious Merlin died two years ago. I would have loved to have him cloned. Please let me know when (not if) you perfect this procedure. I have two cats left, Vladimir, a regal Russian Blue, and Nigel, a homely little runt rescued from a barn cat's life. On becoming gods, I believe it is something man should strive for at any point in life's cyclical process. Souls like yourself will inevitably reach this state sooner than the rest of us.

Yratorm, LightMage! I?ve enjoyed reading your candid response to my post. The topic of vegetarianism always seems to stir up, dare I say, strong "emotions" whenever I raise the issue, but you?ve managed to get your point across in a very civil manner, even though you don?t agree with my premise.As bleak as it seems, I?m afraid your inclinations regarding the future of food and nutrition may come to pass. Probably not in our lifetime, but eventually. We are currently headed in that direction with the advent of ?franken-food? and genetically modified this and that. There is, however, a backlash against these non foods by an international organization called, ?Slow Food,? whose proponents promote a sort of back-to-the-land attitude where food production is concerned. A concern of chief import to them is the use of growth hormones in America?s meat supply, and the advent of dairy pasteurization. Hormones, of course, make the cow grow larger and in turn garner larger profit for the beef industry. There is growing concern that these hormones can be passed on to the consumer, contributing to weight gain and cancerous tumors. Indeed, the USDA does next to nothing to monitor the inclusion of diseased animal carcasses in the human or pet food supply. I personally know a guy who grew up on a ranch and became vegetarian after witnessing what?s allowed to be slaughtered for human consumption.As far as acceptance of laws by which the world works, I?m afraid that too could be the subject of a very long debate (sounds like a good post topic to me). Just as man?s understanding of cosmic law is in a state of constant evolution, I believe man himself should strive to evolve as well. We should strive to be gods in our right, and sometimes that means moving beyond paradigms of the past.

Husker - you make a good point. I doubt most folks would actually go out of their way to adopt a vegetarian diet just on the chance it MIGHT raise their IQ. Now that I think on it a little harder, it would be difficult to adopt any major change in lifestyle choice unless you had a strong philosophical belief backing you up. I've known many people who claim to be vegetarian but when interogated, they admit to eating chicken and fish. I'm sorry, but since when are living, breathing, sentient creatures considered produce? I found that these folks had one thing in common, that is, they were motivated by purely selfish reasons. They weren't particularly concerned with the plight of animals who suffer horendous, tortured lives at the hands of factory farming. Nor were they concerend with the effect factory farming has on the planet. No, they were concerned with losing weight, having more energy, looking and feeling better, and so on. Not to say these are not perfectly valid reasons. We all want to feel better about ourselves, but vegetarianism, like all worthwhile endeavors, requires discipline. This can be hard to maintain for some people who don't have a strong belief system backing them up.That said, I would highly recommend that anyone considering this lifestyle look into the source of where their food comes from. Sometimes, just seeing a video of a cow being slaughtered is enough to stir one's compassion into action.

I have a stupid Newbie question and haven't been able to find an answer on the this site. When is it necessary to utilize the quote tool on original posts? If someone could point me to a link I'd be most grateful. Thanks in advance for your help.