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To Be ? Or Not To Be Famous ? And rich, by the way. Or Famous and not rich. Or rich and not famous.


yordan

In this topic http://forums.xisto.com/topic/86332-topic/?findpost=
it has been suggested to swith to another thread, because the comversation was deviating, though still interesting.

You seem to be stressing a lot on making money and getting famous! The general public doesn't know a lot about any famous programmers so fame comes for programmers only within the coding circles and its plenty in both open source and closed source programming. And you said open source programmers will lack motivation if they're not paid. This isn't true - many open source projects have been developed for many years and a majority of the programmers hardly get paid - a good example is the development of the various distros of Linux. They've been here for many years in spite of the fact that not every developer of the project gets paid!
Oops writing a lot off the topic again - if there is a thread relating this matter, let's discuss there; otherwise if you start a new thread everyone can jump in and argue freely

I have been very impressed when I saw the "Our Contributos" page of FireFox.
This is a nice example of a free software, widely used by a lot of people, even in their professional life.
And quite a lot of people are mentionned in this "our contribuor" page in the "about:credits" page. You have to use the right-side lift in order to browse the page which cannot fit a single screen, full of simply the name of the guys.
A nice example of people having worked for something free, even not wanting to be more famous than the other guys of the team.

mahesh2k

You seem to be stressing a lot on making money and getting famous!

Famous : No (with ever growing population of this planet, not even worth attempt :)making money : yes, that's why more than 80% of the people are into computing field. and i think there is nothing wrong with it. But my point is with the free software business are not earning money they used to be. i see open source as good improvement and change in the way people do business. But because of free software people are not looking at the software with view of hardwork of developer and need for paying for it. They simply install and forget about it. How many end users even care for donating or supporting open source ? (forget the contributions that is made by developers). Unless donated or supported by companies or business man open source or free software projects don't even stand. Think about it, it kills jobs of developers on side. I used to think it is good but when it comes to making money one has to build software more effective than free software or opensource to survive. And making business arround free software is not so easy. People in asia, hardly pays for software think about they paying for support or even phone call for the product. I see this as more killing of jobs and less revenue generation model. It's okay if it solves some recurring issues that bugs almost everyone like business and individual. But if it kills jobs and limits revenue generation then it's bad.

The Simpleton1405241582

Famous : No (with ever growing population of this planet, not even worth attempt tongue.gif

Yup that's right - with each day it's becoming difficult to get famous

making money : yes, that's why more than 80% of the people are into computingfield. and i think there is nothing wrong with it.


Yes, nothing wrong with it. And of these 80% at least 90% of people already know that all their hard work would go unnoticed by the general public anyway, and so they're content with the money they're making. They deserve every small part of it. They really do.

I guess it's the remaining 20% of people who are the pioneers of open-source software, and these are the guys who don't care how much money they're making, as long as they are providing something to the community. They do need money to live of course, but they don't make it their single goal in life to earn money through their talent. They use their skill to help others. This is the same thing that ordinary programmers do, and they get paid for it too, but the difference is that open-source programmers get the satisfaction that their users don't have to burn holes in their pockets to get what they want.

But because of free software people are not looking at the software with view of hardwork of developerand need for paying for it. They simply install and forget about it. How many end users even care for donating or supporting open source ?


When people pay for software, they hardly spend time appreciating its quality. Most of them simply take it for granted that they paid good money, and so get the features they want. In case of open-source software there's a lot of experimenting involved and the users often get surprised.They may not bother much about the amount of work put in to develop that software, but they will surely appreciate the fact that they're getting what they want for free. Not everyone may be supporting or donating to the community but the situation is not all that bad - there are people who donate generously or support the project in different ways (promoting it, etc) These things are seen only in the open-source community, although the reason for this could be that commercial software doesn't need any support as the users are already paying it before they use it!!

Unless donated or supported by companies or business man open source or free software projects don't even stand. Think about it, it kills jobs of developers on side. I used to think it is good but when it comes to making money one has to build software more effective than free software or opensourceto survive.


If you're looking to developing a software company like Microsoft, then commercial software is the way to go. In the open-source community, money is hardly bothered about, and in any case, it's an open secret that open-source doesn't offer much money, and so people who are concerned about making money can back out early, leaving the people who do their best to keep their projects running. If their work shows promise, they will easily get support from bigger organizations, as is the case with Mozilla (AOL supported it in its early days).

And making business arround free software is not so easy. People in asia, hardly pays for software think about they paying for support or even phone call for the product. I see this as more killing of jobs and less revenue generation model.

The reason why people in Asia don't buy more legit software because the prices are still US/UK prices merely converted into the local currency. Piracy offers them cheaper alternatives. The phone support too charges them way too much, which is why they shy away from those. Most of them just ask for support in the many forums available on the net and in most cases the problem is solved.

It's okay if it solves some recurring issues that bugs almost everyone like business and individual. But if it kills jobs and limits revenue generation then it's bad.

As of now open-source software is yet to gain ground. People are still convinced that paid software is always the best because it costs something, and most people wouldn't put their trust in something that came "cheaply". So as of now there's no huge scale loss of developer jobs. The commercial software world might have been shaken a bit, but it just cuts down their profits; it doesn't eat into what they have already earned (which is quite a lot)

8ennett

I think the mandate laid down by the open-source community is, you work for a living, you earn what you need to live comfortably. Then there is going further to provide people with not only useful and helpful software, but to enable this software to grow and develop allowing others to make their contributions thus adding to its abilities.Don't you feel better giving a hotdog to a homeless man instead of selling it to him at a reduced cost? And then, someone see's your example and gives the homeless man a clean blanket to keep him warm. The cycle carries on, and you not only feel good about yourself but you are helping a man to eat, encouraging others to help him while you still live your own life.Without open-source software we would never have such great applications like:FirefoxAudacityGimpOpenOfficeThunderbirdVLC Media PlayerIn my own opinion some of the above software is better than their microsoft equivalents. VLC is without doubt the greatest media player ever conceived, it blows WMP out of the water. Firefox was born from the ashes of Netscape Navigator, tired of Microsoft attempting to undermime them they split and firefox was born and has grown far beyond the potential IE currently has.Where would University students be without OpenOffice? A completely free solution for those who can't afford the over priced MS Office package.Audacity, absolutely amazing. They used this to teach us about digital and constant frequencies among many other things when I was at the networkig academy at college.All of the above are open-source projects, developed by people who care more about furthering our development than they do about money. It's the kind of thinking that has prevented microsoft and apple from becoming full blown extortionists. They know if they don't show that they must be following some kind of example then they would completely lose respect and following and everyone would start contributing to the above products to make them even greater than anything MS or Apple can offer.Another example, a construction company is offered a contract to build a church, the contract calls for 50 men to build it. In a seperate community they also require a church and everyone in the community is supporting the project both with their own funds and by building it themselves. It doesn't matter which will be finished first.The contracted church is grand, professionally finished, all the little things accounted for. A huge flight of concrete steps lead up to the industry standard-sized doors.The community-built church is good, doesn't have all the little touches of the other church, but the people love it because it not only serves the exact same purpose (to worship god) but they made it with love and have tweaked it so it makes everything for them that little bit easier, such as a higher door for people in the community who are taller than average, and the whole thing is built on ground level so it is easier for people in wheelchairs to get in without climbing a ramp mountain.Going slightly off topic there but you can see what i'm trying to portray.It's like with Windows 7, Microsoft are starting to get the message and listen to what people want from an operating system instead of telling them what they need. They are overplaying it a bit too much as far as i'm concerned, some of the adverts ridiculous in the features they offer (which already exist in many other things), but still.


mahesh2k

I guess it's the remaining 20% of people who are the pioneers of open-source software, and these are the guys who don't care how much money they're making, as long as they are providing something to the community. They do need money to live of course, but they don't make it their single goal in life to earn money through their talent. They use their skill to help others. This is the same thing that ordinary programmers do, and they get paid for it too, but the difference is that open-source programmers get the satisfaction that their users don't have to burn holes in their pockets to get what they want.

Wrong. Most of the people who are contributing to open source are indeed do worry about money. I think you're not aware of many projects asking for donation drives and funds. Not all developers have full time job. Take example of KDE, there are many developers who lost job in recession got work because corporate funding on KDE project. Open source is not generating money to get them jobs, it's corporate environment is feeding them. I have seen many open source projects going provate again because people using it don't even care for suggesting bugs and giving feedback, think about donation.It's miles apart. Thing about open source is people don't even care for the hardwork of developers and they don't even think of paying at all. And they use skills to help others ? nah, that's not true. They use their brain to keep their mind innovating and working in way they want. People don't help others without purpose either mental satisfaction or to keep their mind on project. People don't do things without purpose.

 

 

 

If you're looking to developing a software company like Microsoft, then commercial software is the way to go. In the open-source community, money is hardly bothered about, and in any case, it's an open secret that open-source doesn't offer much money, and so people who are concerned about making money can back out early, leaving the people who do their best to keep their projects running. If their work shows promise, they will easily get support from bigger organizations, as is the case with Mozilla (AOL supported it in its early days).

Wrong again, you're talking about fsf(free software project) not about open source. Making money via open source and not charging money at all for software both are different concepts. Open source is used by these two ways: either make money or don't make money. People do back out of open source projects (which restricts business model in short not making money) this is because it takes money to payoff bills. I've open sourced my projects and even supported many people using it, i do got satisfaction but when it comes to making money for it to keep it alive. I know how many users of that software changed the expression on their face. Especially, in asia people are used to using free software and don't value developers who are taking their time to develop software. All they know is use things for free or get it pirated. If this type of mentality is seeded by open/fsf people then i'm sure they'll kill many business and in turn will achieve nothing and in turn many people will find themselves not making money by supporting such things.

 

 

The reason why people in Asia don't buy more legit software because the prices are still US/UK prices merely converted into the local currency. Piracy offers them cheaper alternatives. The phone support too charges them way too much, which is why they shy away from those. Most of them just ask for support in the many forums available on the net and in most cases the problem is solved.

Really ? is that the case ? i know how asians think. They'll buy expensive iphone but when it comes to purchasing apps from app store all they'll do is look for pirated version or free software if there is. Even 20$ software is affordable for almost every laptop owner but how many even bother to pay in india ? How many people own DVDripper which costs 15-30$ or even in some case lower than that ? I've gone through stages where even i didn't afforded software but now as i've money i don't hesitate to spend on software cause i'm in shoe of developer and i know i must keep economy alive. But how many will even bother to pay for software ? Free software will not buy food for developers or not even for people who wants to use and make money from it cause ultimately it becomes harder for people to convince that the stuff they program from free software has any value other than being free ? it's not that easy to get out of "get it free or don't get it at all" mentality of asian people.

 

 

As of now open-source software is yet to gain ground. People are still convinced that paid software is always the best because it costs something, and most people wouldn't put their trust in something that came "cheaply". So as of now there's no huge scale loss of developer jobs. The commercial software world might have been shaken a bit, but it just cuts down their profits; it doesn't eat into what they have already earned (which is quite a lot)

Open source is good if it is built around model of making money or providing support or in any loop making money for developers or company. Else it just sucks economy and will seed limited amount of people's pocket and will damage economy for sure.

The Simpleton1405241582

I think the mandate laid down by the open-source community is, you work for a living, you earn what you need to live comfortably. Then there is going further to provide people with not only useful and helpful software, but to enable this software to grow and develop allowing others to make their contributions thus adding to its abilities.

 

Don't you feel better giving a hotdog to a homeless man instead of selling it to him at a reduced cost? And then, someone see's your example and gives the homeless man a clean blanket to keep him warm. The cycle carries on, and you not only feel good about yourself but you are helping a man to eat, encouraging others to help him while you still live your own life.


A good point. Most of the developers first settle down in their careers before being part of the open-source community. Of course there are those who focus only on the community and not on their careers, thus losing their jobs, but the majority of them do put their own careers in front of the community. They do their bit for the community and feel immensely satisfied for it.

 

Without open-source software we would never have such great applications like:

 

Firefox

Audacity

Gimp

OpenOffice

Thunderbird

VLC Media Player


That's a very good list and you could also include Linux in it, as its more secure than Windows, but as it is still not widely accepted, it's inclusion in the list is debatable. All of the above mentioned software are Free and Open-source software, right? Except for The GIMP which loses out to Photoshop, all the others easily beat their commercial counterparts in many ways. All of them accept donations, but don't they deserve every bit of it? They really do. And most of them have collected a good amount of money through donations, proving that if the project is a success, people will surely appreciate it.

 

 

Wrong. Most of the people who are contributing to open source are indeed do worry about money. I think you're not aware of many projects asking for donation drives and funds. Not all developers have full time job. Take example of KDE, there are many developers who lost job in recession got work because corporate funding on KDE project.

I agree that the developers do depend on funding and donations and are always looking out for these. Ubuntu, the widely-popular Linux distribution gets its funding from a private company, which is why they are able to afford giving out free CDs all over the world. Not all open-source projects have this luxury. It's true, however, that the developers do look out for money; it's human nature. The developers who do not care for money even a little are rare to find, but at least these money-hungry developers are not pestering the users too much. They put out their work for the world to see and hope that it touches the users enough to make them give a generous donation. In most cases this doesn't work out as intended, but the developers haven't stopped trying and are not going to stop their work either. If a single failure allowed them to be let down, the community wouldn't have come this far at all.

 

Wrong again, you're talking about fsf(free software project) not about open source. Making money via open source and not charging money at all for software both are different concepts. Open source is used by these two ways: either make money or don't make money. People do back out of open source projects (which restricts business model in short not making money) this is because it takes money to payoff bills. I've open sourced my projects and even supported many people using it, i do got satisfaction but when it comes to making money for it to keep it alive. I know how many users of that software changed the expression on their face. Especially, in asia people are used to using free software and don't value developers who are taking their time to develop software. All they know is use things for free or get it pirated. If this type of mentality is seeded by open/fsf people then i'm sure they'll kill many business and in turn will achieve nothing and in turn many people will find themselves not making money by supporting such things.

Oops I was talking about FOSS (Free and Open-Source Software). The best known Open-source software are usually free which is why I mixed up these two terms. I'll be more clear from now on. I'll admit that my knowledge in this field (both in FOSS and open source) is limited so I won't comment much on the process behind these software. I'll just say that in today's world there is no dearth of developers. If a single developer feels discouraged that his/her project didn't garner as much attention as expected, he/she will not quit (usually), because there are many people ready to fill the void. Thus your statement that lack of support from people will kill the business is somewhat doubtful - there are a lot of talented developers and very little opportunities so the business will always be on, no matter how the people respond. With this in mind, the business should try to become more people-friendly. I wanted to expand on this but I'm not getting enough ideas right now.

 

biggrin.gif Really ? is that the case ? i know how asians think. They'll buy expensive iphone but when it comes to purchasing apps from app store all they'll do is look for pirated version or free software if there is. Even 20$ software is affordable for almost every laptop owner but how many even bother to pay in india ? wink.gif How many people own DVDripper which costs 15-30$ or even in some case lower than that ? I've gone through stages where even i didn't afforded software but now as i've money i don't hesitate to spend on software cause i'm in shoe of developer and i know i must keep economy alive. But how many will even bother to pay for software ? Free software will not buy food for developers or not even for people who wants to use and make money from it cause ultimately it becomes harder for people to convince that the stuff they program from free software has any value other than being free ? it's not that easy to get out of "get it free or don't get it at all" mentality of asian people.

Wow you seem to be focusing a lot on Asia and not other places. Any bad experiences? Your questions are reasonable although I can try to give some answers for them. I think I too know how Asians think, me being one of them What's more, I'm from India In the US/UK the cost of living is much higher but at the same time the income is high too and it sorts of balances out. Over here the cost of living used to be low but it has spiraled up after the recession while salaries kept falling. For example, an average movie ticket in the US costs something like $10? Here in the average theater it costs $1. That's how steep the difference is. In any case there was never a balance due to which the majority of the people controlled their spending.

 

I'll start answering with your first example - people here buy the iPhone but don't spend in the app store? I don't remember exactly how much the iPhone costs in the US, but I do remember that I did a conversion when I saw the price and it came to around Rs.7000/- And what does it cost when it comes here? Rs.32,000+ And yet you wonder why piracy is rampant. Most of the sets that people buy are from the black market, which sell it at almost the original price of Rs.7k. I haven't seen the app store till now so I don't know what the prices are like, but if the pricing is only US-friendly, then it's definitely not friendly to India or the other Asian countries.

 

Next you say $20 software is affordable to every laptop owner. True. After conversion that amounts to roughly Rs.1000, which isn't a small amount. It's true that the laptop owner could spend it to buy a good software. However, with that same amount, he could buy a month's worth of fuel or some other important utility. See my point? If that software cost something along the lines of Rs.200-500, it's popularity would surely increase. Next you talk about DVDRipper. A DVD-ROM costs Rs.1100, which falls in your $15-30 category, and it comes with a basic version of NERO which is more than enough for the average computer user. The more computer-literate people do use advanced software, although not always necessarily genuine.

 

The point is, it's not just India or any other country. People put priorities for spending money and in countries like these, buying software is like a luxury. The mentality here, as you call it, is not get it free or don't get it at all, but Why pour so much money for a single CD/DVD when the same amount of money could help you get through life for a few more days?.

 

Hmm looks like I have the bad habit of steering away from the topic every time!! All this discussion started at people from Asia not supporting developers enough, right? I'll just say that people from Asia have bigger problems in life due to which they can't appreciate how intricately a software has been designed, or how many hours the developer put in to make it work, etc. People here are just beginning to get the hang of the computer world and it's most unfortunate that a few people (i.e. pirates), who already went much ahead, brought in the curse of piracy and now it's tough to push into millions of busy minds that software needs to be purchased, or (in case of FOSS or open-source) appreciated. The developers, who are used to good support from the US/UK/other developed countries, haven't learned to control their pricing in these developing countries, due to which they don't get much support.

 

FOSS gives software to everyone for free, and I'm sure every user, at least for one millisecond, thanks the developer for putting it out for free. The more patient people even drop in a word of thanks, and the large-hearted people send in donations. The bug-reporting and feedback backbone is maybe a little weak; it's starting to grow strong gradually. It just needs time.

 

Open source is good if it is built around model of making money or providing support or in any loop making money for developers or company. Else it just sucks economy and will seed limited amount of people's pocket and will damage economy for sure.

I think for now, there is no need to worry about the economy being damaged, because open-source (paid and free) technology hasn't been able to stand up to the onslaught of paid software strongly, except in a few business-scenarios. Come to think of it, paid open-source will only benefit corporate companies, because the common public doesn't know what to do with the source-code! So I think for the time-being, it's best for the developers to choose their path and do their best at it, enabling a parallel development between both worlds.

mahesh2k

1)The developers who do not care for money even a little are rare to find, but at least these money-hungry developers are not pestering the users too much. They put out their work for the world to see and hope that it touches the users enough to make them give a generous donation. In most cases this doesn't work out as intended, but the developers haven't stopped trying and are not going to stop their work either. If a single failure allowed them to be let down, the community wouldn't have come this far at all.
2) Thus your statement that lack of support from people will kill the business is somewhat doubtful - there are a lot of talented developers and very little opportunities so the business will always be on, no matter how the people respond. With this in mind, the business should try to become more people-friendly. I wanted to expand on this but I'm not getting enough ideas right now


1) Not pestering the users much ? You mean even FSF runs entirely on their own without funds ? and they're giving it for free for the world without any expectations? *cough* we need reality check here. Which community you're talking about ? FSF or any specific open source community where developers are sticking to project for more than 2 years without hoping for anything in return? Many projects are going way down because of no revenue-only-satisfaction model, take case of slackware. How many linux noobs and intermediate users even aware of this fork and their distributed contribution ? Less than 1% IMO. How long this project will even manage to stick in the race of other distros ? Without money or any specific purpose, seeding to the community is worthless or not even going to help people at all. We all do it for some satisfaction or some selfish reasons. We humans are like leech if any one is giving out free without returns then people suck it off till it dies and then we forget about it as if it was never there. Truth is there is not a single product out there where developers or communtiy survives without support (be it donation/docs/coding etc). FOSS/OS are coming this far cause commercial support is behind them just drop this support and see how far they'll go and then measure the failure they're into if they can start building community on their "free-as-in-beer" terms.

2) Again back to basics, what will attract these new developers ? is it money or fame or learning experience ? or is it the inovolvement in the project just for the sake of resume ? Any business on earth uses people and there is no way, business-tycoons considers what a person emplyed thinks or wants to do with opensource, they get their work done either open/closed source. Nobody cares if x developer is open source contributor or so but how his experience helps company. Business have very limited scope of earning consistent revenue model under FOSS and any developer attempting to show off skils or anything in FOSS terms will hardly help any business. Being people-friendly doesn't mean distributing software for free without considering month's of hard work just like piece of grass.


1) Wow you seem to be focusing a lot on Asia and not other places. Any bad experiences?
2)I'll start answering with your first example - people here buy the iPhone but don't spend in the app store? I don't remember exactly how much the iPhone costs in the US, but I do remember that I did a conversion when I saw the price and it came to around Rs.7000/- And what does it cost when it comes here? Rs.32,000+ And yet you wonder why piracy is rampant. Most of the sets that people buy are from the black market, which sell it at almost the original price of Rs.7k. I haven't seen the app store till now so I don't know what the prices are like, but if the pricing is only US-friendly, then it's definitely not friendly to India or the other Asian countries.

1) Lol, that is cause i'm asian and i know how people behave when it comes to money. How many people raise their hands when it comes to paying for stuff that makes their life comfortable. Pick any 100 people and i can show you less than 15 hands raising when asked for payment of software or any digital product. Paypal will give you better stats at how asians bypassed their gift system to get tax-free money. I can go on and on about how asians think when it comes to money.

2) You're ignoring the fact that these stores have regional offices and sites where prices are listed are in indian rupees and not dollars. When any app in US costs 19$, doesn;t mean it costs 1100/- rupees in india. But it costs less than that due to regional distribution of software. Plants and zombies game which costs 20$ at start in us stores, costs 200 rupees for indian gamers. Now i want to know why piracy is rampant when price after conversion is so low for many products. And iphone in india now costs 14000 and not 32000/- because that was price when it was launched and after 3G which launched here in just 4 months it goes down to this price. People who afford even 32k product can't pay few hundread more for extra price ? Pricing in india is reasonable, it's just that people will always get arround it with some excuse.

1)Next you say $20 software is affordable to every laptop owner. True. After conversion that amounts to roughly Rs.1000, which isn't a small amount. It's true that the laptop owner could spend it to buy a good software. However, with that same amount, he could buy a month's worth of fuel or some other important utility. See my point? If that software cost something along the lines of Rs.200-500, it's popularity would surely increase. Next you talk about DVDRipper. A DVD-ROM costs Rs.1100, which falls in your $15-30 category, and it comes with a basic version of NERO which is more than enough for the average computer user. The more computer-literate people do use advanced software, although not always necessarily genuine.
2) The point is, it's not just India or any other country. People put priorities for spending money and in countries like these, buying software is like a luxury. The mentality here, as you call it, is not get it free or don't get it at all, but Why pour so much money for a single CD/DVD when the same amount of money could help you get through life for a few more days?


1)Think again about conversion and not necessarily this conversion has to be exact as RBI conversion prices cause many software vendors have seperate price tags as per country. Unless you pay via paypal, it redirects you to regional pricing site (for most of the software product sites).


2)So why pay for vegetables ? just steal it if possible or why pay for milk if you can borrow(err..) from your neighbours door early morning ?save on money so that it goes for few more days. Vegetable selling is profession and must be respected andpaid for but software selling is not a respected profession and shouldn't be respected and paid for is that it ? isn't that be a case for priority here as well ? its just that in case of computers chances of getting caught for using pirated usage are less or none and people are taking advantage of this flaw in system. It's not that they can't pay all the time, it's that if they've money why spend it on that if we can get it free or pirated. Who cares for developers or company ? let them die or go to hell, i'm getting my work done for free and if asked for money i'm not in condition of paying for it, it's not in my priority. And hey, i care for economy as well and i don't want recession. You get the picture ?

I'll just say that people from Asia have bigger problems in life due to which they can't appreciate how intricately a software has been designed, or how many hours the developer put in to make it work, etc

really ? is that the case ? country which has more number of soft engg and technology specialist scattered all over the world claims that they've more problems than paying for software ? *cough* People from this country do more work on outsource than any other country and if they say that they've bigger problem than not paying for software which is earning them money and they're surviving with it then i think that outsourcer side if start to cheat this country or even starts to pay low or withdraws to give contracts to another country then i see no unfair view in that case. Why ? because people who give work in this country on outsourcing model has bigger problems as well

People here are just beginning to get the hang of the computer world and it's most unfortunate that a few people (i.e. pirates), who already went much ahead, brought in the curse of piracy and now it's tough to push into millions of busy minds that software needs to be purchased, or (in case of FOSS or open-source) appreciated.

Asians are enjoying the luxury of computers since 2000 (much earlier than that but 2000-2010 span is revolutionary for asians as internet spreads and their GDP growth speaks the rest. About piracy, it'll be there for one or other media if not software. earlier it was with video tape for movies and casette and now it's for software. Piracy can't be killed as long as there are things people enjoy.

The Simpleton1405241582

Not pestering the users much ? You mean even FSF runs entirely on their own without funds ? and they're giving it for free for the world without any expectations? *cough* we need reality check here. Which community you're talking about ? FSF or any specific open source community where developers are sticking to project for more than 2 years without hoping for anything in return? Many projects are going way down because of no revenue-only-satisfaction model, take case of slackware. How many linux noobs and intermediate users even aware of this fork and their distributed contribution ? Less than 1% IMO. How long this project will even manage to stick in the race of other distros ? Without money or any specific purpose, seeding to the community is worthless or not even going to help people at all. We all do it for some satisfaction or some selfish reasons. We humans are like leech if any one is giving out free without returns then people suck it off till it dies and then we forget about it as if it was never there. Truth is there is not a single product out there where developers or communtiy survives without support (be it donation/docs/coding etc). FOSS/OS are coming this far cause commercial support is behind them just drop this support and see how far they'll go and then measure the failure they're into if they can start building community on their "free-as-in-beer" terms

It's true that lot of open-source projects fail without sufficient funding. It's hard to argue against facts. However, I don't think all of the projects are still there only because they get the funding and support which they require. My point in the paragraph which gave rise to your reply was that the original intention behind these projects was never money-making. It came as a surprise package. Agreed that had they not received the funding, we wouldn't even have heard about some of these projects in the first place, but the original intention might have been something else than simply "money-making".

 

Your challenge about how long OS projects could survive without funding is indeed a matter to ponder about. I'm guessing it would survive long enough because now a lot of people are taking interest in it, and they might support it as a pet project or something similar. They won't die very soon, that's for sure. And that's because behind all the money-mindedness, there's the feeling of community. Oh, and they never focused much on "free-as-in-beer". It was always "free-as-in-freedom".

 

Again back to basics, what will attract these new developers ? is it money or fame or learning experience ? or is it the inovolvement in the project just for the sake of resume ? Any business on earth uses people and there is no way, business-tycoons considers what a person emplyed thinks or wants to do with opensource, they get their work done either open/closed source. Nobody cares if x developer is open source contributor or so but how his experience helps company. Business have very limited scope of earning consistent revenue model under FOSS and any developer attempting to show off skils or anything in FOSS terms will hardly help any business. Being people-friendly doesn't mean distributing software for free without considering month's of hard work just like piece of grass.

We agreed sometime ago that developing software for fame is out of the question, because there is simply too much satisfaction. For learning experience......well there is quite a lot to learn from any kind of project so it can be done in both the commercial and open-source communities. Lastly money.....an aspiring developer's first question is how he can profit from his skills. The immediate answer is that he can earn good money through it. But if there are no one to buy the software is there any use of it at all? Only the software which is heavily promoted gets sold in large numbers these days. For small-scale developers, it's a bad situation because not many people buy their software and thus their efforts don't give much fruit. In case of FOSS, the developers know that the users will be ready to try out their software because it is free and will keep their fingers crossed that some of those users will support them. They may not be making any large amounts of money but at least their work is being useful to someone else, and there is much satisfaction in that. It is for this satisfaction that there will always be a demand for software developers, so existing developers should be wary of losing their current positions. As for companies, I don't know what they look for in resumes, but I do know that they want their employees to be the best. Open-source projects allow them to improve their skills more and they can put this to use in the corporate world as well.

 

In the end it's still debatable whether open-source does more harm than good, but we have to realise that it's not going to die soon and that both the worlds will have to learn to live parallely and help each other to survive.

 

Lol, that is cause i'm asian and i know how people behave when it comes to money. How many people raise their hands when it comes to paying for stuff that makes their life comfortable. Pick any 100 people and i can show you less than 15 hands raising when asked for payment of software or any digital product. Paypal will give you better stats at how asians bypassed their gift system to get tax-free money. I can go on and on about how asians think when it comes to money. tongue.gif

Stuff which makes life comfortable.....perhaps it is this which makes Asians think twice before spending on digital material. Perhaps they are still under the impression that anything that they can't touch directly can't make their life comfortable, and it is just a luxury. Remember that Asian economies have been on the rise from a long time, but the lifestyle of the people has been changing only since the last decade. They still need time to adapt to the change.

 

You're ignoring the fact that these stores have regional offices and sites where prices are listed are in indian rupees and not dollars. When any app in US costs 19$, doesn;t mean it costs 1100/- rupees in india. But it costs less than that due to regional distribution of software. Plants and zombies game which costs 20$ at start in us stores, costs 200 rupees for indian gamers. Now i want to know why piracy is rampant when price after conversion is so low for many products. And iphone in india now costs 14000 and not 32000/- because that was price when it was launched and after 3G which launched here in just 4 months it goes down to this price. People who afford even 32k product can't pay few hundread more for extra price ? Pricing in india is reasonable, it's just that people will always get arround it with some excuse.

And you're ignoring the fact that Apple doesn't have any official stores in India yet. They do have "Apple Shops" but these are simply dealers which deal with other brands as well. As for the app store, I can't speak much about it as I haven't seen all the prices myself. I can just say that the prices may be listed in Rupees but they're only converting them and not balancing them. So yes, $19 does mean Rs.1100. And who on Earth told you that the iphone costs Rs.14000?!! The price hasn't been reduced. In fact, the new iPhone 4 is going to be even more expensive, with the cost going into 40k. Please check your sources before posting something like this

 

As for why people who afford expensive gadgets don't purchase other software, maybe it's only these people who are actually purchasing them; it is the common public which can't afford to buy original products. It is thanks to these well-to-do people that there is at least some hope that a few products will sell. Otherwise no one would bother spending bundles of money on a single piece of software. And it's not an excuse - it's a fact. What's going wrong here is that the people who were supposed to accept this fact quietly started doing the wrong thing by encouraging piracy. If only they had been silent, there might have been some chance of the prices coming down.

 

You say pricing here is reasonable. That's wrong and I'll take the iphone as an example again. It costs $173 to manufacture an iphone and that's around Rs.8000. But the price here becomes above Rs.30k. Who is to blame if the sellers are so greedy?

 

Think again about conversion and not necessarily this conversion has to be exact as RBI conversion prices cause many software vendors have seperate price tags as per country. Unless you pay via paypal, it redirects you to regional pricing site (for most of the software product sites).

You once again mention that there are regional pricing sites. Maybe I'm just an ignoramus, but could you give an example of such sites? For software such sites are a rarity. They exist for other consumer products but it's not in the case of software. So could you please support your claim with an example? All I see everywhere are either original US sites or local sites which offer only literally-converted prices.

 

So why pay for vegetables ? just steal it if possible or why pay for milk if you can borrow(err..) from your neighbours door early morning ?save on money so that it goes for few more days. Vegetable selling is profession and must be respected andpaid for but software selling is not a respected profession and shouldn't be respected and paid for is that it ? isn't that be a case for priority here as well ? its just that in case of computers chances of getting caught for using pirated usage are less or none and people are taking advantage of this flaw in system. It's not that they can't pay all the time, it's that if they've money why spend it on that if we can get it free or pirated. Who cares for developers or company ? let them die or go to hell, i'm getting my work done for free and if asked for money i'm not in condition of paying for it, it's not in my priority. And hey, i care for economy as well and i don't want recession. You get the picture ? wink.gif

Lol how can you compare sale of day-to-day items with sale of software? I know it's wrong that people don't care for the company or the developers when they buy pirated copies. Their general opinion is that the companies are rolling in wealth and this "harmless act" of piracy won't affect the companies in any way. They're wrong but they don't realise it yet. They need some time to realise this fact. And it's not like the whole region is not purchasing anything. There are people who support the economy and buy original software. It's just unfortunate that these people are in the minority.

 

really ? is that the case ? country which has more number of soft engg and technology specialist scattered all over the world claims that they've more problems than paying for software ? *cough* People from this country do more work on outsource than any other country and if they say that they've bigger problem than not paying for software which is earning them money and they're surviving with it then i think that outsourcer side if start to cheat this country or even starts to pay low or withdraws to give contracts to another country then i see no unfair view in that case. Why ? because people who give work in this country on outsourcing model has bigger problems as well tongue.gif

It's already an open secret that outsourcing firms cheat their employees by paying them far below the average salary in their original country (US/UK/Australia). But no one's complaining because even this less salary is far more than what the average salary is in other professions. Offer this same salary to someone in the developed countries and they too will start to look for ways to cut costs, because it simply won't fit into their budget if they're going to keep buying software every now and then. If the outsourcing salaries could be reduced, why not the software prices? That would be a balancing act and then more people would be encouraged to buy original.

 

In any case, the number of software professionals and engineers are not even 20% of India's total population and hence they can't represent the country as a whole. 70% of the population still remains under poverty and the remainder struggles to meet ends with a tight-knit budget in which there is room for very few luxuries. Once again the wrong move by these people is that instead of being content with the luxuries they have, they resort to piracy to experience the software luxuries

 

Asians are enjoying the luxury of computers since 2000 (much earlier than that but 2000-2010 span is revolutionary for asians as internet spreads and their GDP growth speaks the rest. About piracy, it'll be there for one or other media if not software. earlier it was with video tape for movies and casette and now it's for software. Piracy can't be killed as long as there are things people enjoy.

Computers were being enjoyed since 2000? My turn to say *cough* When I bought my PC in 2002, it cost me Rs.40,000/- for a 256MB RAM, 40GB hard disk, 2.1 (or perhaps less) Ghz CPU set. Now that configuration doesn't exist in the market, but if it did it would cost well below Rs.15,000. So it is now that computers are becoming common. In those days, it is, as you said, a luxury. A luxury which not many people could afford. Even today some people think twice before buying a basic PC. It still burns a hole in their pockets and they don't spend more for other accessories.

 

From what I've written I know that some more points will be raised so I won't make any concluding remarks right now


mahesh2k

However, I don't think all of the projects are still there only because they get the funding and support which they require. My point in the paragraph which gave rise to your reply was that the original intention behind these projects was never money-making. It came as a surprise package

Not exactly, these are usually sales pitch hidden to everything that is free. For example, there are only two ways any developer can create open-source or free software : one for the sake of building business arround it e.g wordpress, ubuntu (cannonical/automattic inc model of doing business). Second way is to solve problem which is recurring in most situation. (e.g gcc and some mail clients/ftp clients were written with this purpose.) Later developers stepped into commercial side of it or dropped the project if it's trying to survive without funding. So it was one or the other way for saving money and time (which is more valuable assets than money).

 

They won't die very soon, that's for sure. And that's because behind all the money-mindedness, there's the feeling of community

As i said earlier, feeling of community is there as long as all people feel they'll get something out of that project (be it boredom killer, friends made along the way, experience, skill development or money) without purpose human-leechers don't form a group. There has to be something in return before people stick like ant to any candy.

 

Oh, and they never focused much on "free-as-in-beer". It was always "free-as-in-freedom"

Wrong, FSF always meant things as free as in beer, look around their site. The way they oppose software companies and get os/fsf stuff around always meant to be economy killer "free-as-in -beer".

 

 

The immediate answer is that he can earn good money through it. But if there are no one to buy the software is there any use of it at all? Only the software which is heavily promoted gets sold in large numbers these days. For small-scale developers, it's a bad situation because not many people buy their software and thus their efforts don't give much fruit. In case of FOSS, the developers know that the users will be ready to try out their software because it is free and will keep their fingers crossed that some of those users will support them. They may not be making any large amounts of money but at least their work is being useful to someone else, and there is much satisfaction in that.

So you agree that OS/FSF model tempts people not to think about commercial softwares right? It damages commercial softwares rather than helping.

 

In the end it's still debatable whether open-source does more harm than good, but we have to realize that it's not going to die soon and that both the worlds will have to learn to live parallel and help each other to survive

well my point is not just damage but about how if this thing helps people make money and stabilize the hollow side of software industry.

 

Stuff which makes life comfortable.....perhaps it is this which makes Asians think twice before spending on digital material. Perhaps they are still under the impression that anything that they can't touch directly can't make their life comfortable, and it is just a luxury

hmm, cable subscription can be touched ? mobile phone subscription plans for post paid service can be touched ? i find these are more of excuse justifying stealing than real reason for not paying for software.

 

And you're ignoring the fact that Apple doesn't have any official stores in India yet

 

Apple does have official stores in india and that you can check it when you order air or mac. Iphone dealership and apple store both are different and india already has apple store in mumbai and some other metro cities.

 

I can just say that the prices may be listed in Rupees but they're only converting them and not balancing them. So yes, $19 does mean Rs.1100. And who on Earth told you that the iphone costs Rs.14000?!! The price hasn't been reduced. In fact, the new iPhone 4 is going to be even more expensive, with the cost going into 40k. Please check your sources before posting something like this smile.gif

sorry your assumption of 19$ here is completely wrong as when apple & similar companies with regional stores charge indian people they charge as per affordable indian prices. You don't end up paying 4-5 $ for song at itunes. Lol, and i think you're unaware of iphone, iphone 3g and 4g pricing structure. Go into nearest vodaphone store and check the prices for iphone models which is starting at 15,365 after their introductory offer.

 

You say pricing here is reasonable. That's wrong and I'll take the iphone as an example again. It costs $173 to manufacture an iphone and that's around Rs.8000. But the price here becomes above Rs.30k. Who is to blame if the sellers are so greedy?

That's because you've bad dealers out there. Having bad sellers is not excuse for not paying for things. There is also extra cost for milk distribution, each year price is increased by 2rs which is unreasonable but still people pay for milk they don't steal it. Pricing is reasonable based on the problem that software solves. You pay for typical iphone app for around 1$ onwards based on what it is doing. You don't pay for media player and browser these days as they're reaching the mature stage of development from where making money or innovation is very limited.

 

You once again mention that there are regional pricing sites. Maybe I'm just an ignoramus, but could you give an example of such sites? For software such sites are a rarity. They exist for other consumer products but it's not in the case of software. So could you please support your claim with an example? All I see everywhere are either original US sites or local sites which offer only literally-converted prices

for starters, you've amazon, ebay, Regnow/Juno/ Apple/ Microsoft regional stores. If you want i can even give you URL's of asian countries if you want. Microsoft has small business support center where they sell volume licensing at affordable costs to business in india. Also as i already posted example of game : plants vs zombies which costs 20$-or so is priced at 199rs, you can check that.

 

Lol how can you compare sale of day-to-day items with sale of software?

so is it that stealing has to be justified by way of either if it's day to day item or it's not ? i don't think of television as day-to-day item for myself but if someone thinks it is then stealing it is not crime right ? hmm..

 

It's already an open secret that outsourcing firms cheat their employees by paying them far below the average salary in their original country (US/UK/Australia). But no one's complaining because even this less salary is far more than what the average salary is in other professions

i beg to differ here. Companies like infosys, cognizant which is taking money on hourly basis and are having competitve to prices in us/uk/au. Cheating is not possible on international scale as it's matter of international trade & credentials of country. What you see as bidding and cheating on projects is for project below 1k$ of IM, freelancing, transcription and other small jobs. High paying projects if start to cheat outsourced countries like this then it'll be issue with international trading. It's not that easy to cheat on larger projects. Larger projects are still paid on hourly payment.It's just that asians are used to monthly salaries without understanding the profit their company makes when they charge hourly to client.

 

Offer this same salary to someone in the developed countries and they too will start to look for ways to cut costs, because it simply won't fit into their budget if they're going to keep buying software every now and then.

They can afford to pay for software if their company starts to pay hourly instead of random calculated monthly salary.

 

Computers were being enjoyed since 2000? My turn to say *cough* tongue.gif When I bought my PC in 2002, it cost me Rs.40,000/- for a 256MB RAM, 40GB hard disk, 2.1 (or perhaps less) Ghz CPU set.

What 40k personal purchase has to do with it? GDP growth of most of the asian countries improved after 2000. Banks turned into internet banking after 1999 and that these stats of computer literacy is what i call enjoyment cause these numbers suggest that there is improvement in computer users after 1999 and this decade (2000-2010) we're seeing the stats which proves my statement. Just because computers were expensive back then doesn't stopped people to purchased them. Even you purchased it at that high prices, that applies to me as well.

 

Even today some people think twice before buying a basic PC. It still burns a hole in their pockets and they don't spend more for other accessories.

i rarely see such people in asia as cost of pc is lowered into 15k, i doubt if it burns a hole pocket. If they can afford 10k television, 12k refrigerator then they can afford 15k-18k computer. You're trying to defend people who work at salary below 1lakh/anum and are purchasing computers but failing to defend people who have more than 2-3lakh/anum and can afford 40k computer with software purchases. Later case is in more number in asia than first.

The Simpleton1405241582

Wow I'm amazed that you still didn't get tired of this discussion. By reading your arguments I can think of some counter-arguments but I just don't seem to have the will to talk more on this topic. Maybe that's because the lack of a third person to discuss is straining my enthusiasm. So I think I will throw in the towel. However I will comment one last time on what you said.

 

Not exactly, these are usually sales pitch hidden to everything that is free. For example, there are only two ways any developer can create open-source or free software : one for the sake of building business arround it e.g wordpress, ubuntu (cannonical/automattic inc model of doing business). Second way is to solve problem which is recurring in most situation. (e.g gcc and some mail clients/ftp clients were written with this purpose.) Later developers stepped into commercial side of it or dropped the project if it's trying to survive without funding. So it was one or the other way for saving money and time (which is more valuable assets than money).

So you're saying that Wordpress, Ubuntu and similar projects were started with an intention to do business? If that had been their sole intention they wouldn't have lasted this long! I do agree, however, that they have adopted business-like tactics now (Ubuntu focusing a lot on its store, etc) but they have done some good work so those sort of tactics are excusable. Maintaining a project without funding does seem to be a waste of time for the developers. They are free to choose their career path as they like. What I like about the FOSS community that there is always someone to fill the void so if someone gets bored and quits the project there is always someone else ready to take it up. So in a weird sort of way, it is a win-win situation for all.

 

As i said earlier, feeling of community is there as long as all people feel they'll get something out of that project (be it boredom killer, friends made along the way, experience, skill development or money) without purpose human-leechers don't form a group. There has to be something in return before people stick like ant to any candy.

You're right - we do need some reason to stick together. Boredom Killer and Experience are perfectly valid reasons for staying in the community, and they aren't exactly the kind of returns for which most people would stay in a place for a long time. Killing boredom - that isn't type of return. It's what friends do when they're together! Experience - it does put something in your resume so it could be a type of return, but as you said in one of your earlier post, experience in the open-source community doesn't hold much respect in the commercial field, so that isn't of much use either. The other reasons you mentioned for staying in the community are add-ons and they come along as time passes. And expecting something in return for sticking like ant to a candy - that isn't exactly a bad thing. For example, most of the members here stick to the forum for earning myCENTs (myself included) while there are few who pay real money for their hosting and yet stick to the forums for other reasons. These "few" people are what it takes to keep the community alive and there are lots of "few" people in the FOSS community

 

Wrong, FSF always meant things as free as in beer, look around their site. The way they oppose software companies

and get os/fsf stuff around always meant to be economy killer "free-as-in -beer".


I'll be honest and accept that I can't say much against that.

 

So you agree that OS/FSF model tempts people not to think about commercial softwares right? It damages commercial softwares rather than helping.

Actually, the damage is still in the very early stage. I have a theory that if both the worlds co-exist, eventually they will balance out each other's pros and cons and it would be a bright aspect for developers and users alike. As of now I can't expand on this theory, though.

 

well my point is not just damage but about how if this thing helps people make money and stabilize the hollow side of software industry.

Making money through open-source (not talking about FOSS) - we just have to accept that it's not going to happen any soon, at least at the consumer-end. Maybe the prospects are a bit bright in the business-end but on a large-scale. And the damage also is not going to reduce any sooner. It's an undeniable fact.

 

hmm, cable subscription can be touched ? mobile phone subscription plans for post paid service can be touched ? i find these are more of excuse justifying stealing than real reason for not paying for software.

It's just how the society has evolved. Cable is enjoyed by the whole family and since TV has had a huge influence even before computers, it's become part of the family which is why people don't think twice before spending on cable. Notice that the expensive DTH services aren't popular because of their pricing. People will pay if they think it's reasonable. As for mobile phone subscription, post paid is reducing in popularity every day, and like the TV, phones have been in the society much before computers made their entry, and mobile phones are just an extension to the familiar landline. So this is also a case in which people spend freely. But here too, except for the chatting addicts, not many talk for longer periods of time, in order to save money.

 

As for the excuse, I've said this before too - not buying software because they think the price is high is not an excuse. Stealing software is bad - I agree- but tying these two things together and saying that they're stealing because prices are high is a wrong notion. There are still people left who don't buy software but don't encourage piracy too. They sit still. The vast majority who resort to piracy are finding an easy, illegal way out, which is a pity.

 

Apple does have official stores in india and that you can check it when you order air or mac. Iphone dealership and apple store both are different and india already has apple store in mumbai and some other metro cities.

I visited the Indian version of the Apple site and searched for Apple stores in Mumbai. The first 5-6 results all pointed to CROMA, which is an electronics store dealing with all sorts of brands. It does have the "Apple Shop" logo beneath Croma but is it an exclusively Apple shop? I'm asking really because I don't know! I've never seen an "Apple-only" shop anywhere so far.

 

sorry your assumption of 19$ here is completely wrong as when apple & similar companies with regional stores charge indian people they charge as per affordable indian prices. You don't end up paying 4-5 $ for song at itunes.

Well I didn't say the itunes charged $4-5 for a song! If I'm right, the price is $0.99 per song - which amounts to around Rs.45. Unless its from a foreign album, Indian albums are generally available under Rs.200, which figures to around $0.33 per song. Need I say more?

 

Lol, and i think you're unaware of iphone, iphone 3g and 4g pricing structure. Go into nearest vodaphone store and check the prices for iphone models which is starting at 15,365 after their introductory offer.

After you stressed twice on this point, I decided to do some research. First I stumbled onto this shopping site which shows that all 3G models are still priced between Rs.30k-45k. But you were stressing on 15k phones! Then it hit me that you were talking about the 2G models and finally I found out that you're right. The prices are varying between Rs.15k and 20k for the 2G models. Then why aren't people buying it? 'coz they know that in the US for the same price they can get the 3G model! In the case of the iPhone, only people really interested in technology show interest in purchase and how can you expect lot of sales for a product which is heavily overpriced? And why should we settle for an older, outdated model?! Smartphone business isn't dull in India - a lot of smartphones from Nokia and RIM are being sold briskly. It's just iPhone's pricing which always turns off most of the people.

 

That's because you've bad dealers out there. Having bad sellers is not excuse for not paying for things. There is also extra cost for milk distribution, each year price is increased by 2rs which is unreasonable but still people pay for milk they don't steal it. Pricing is reasonable based on the problem that software solves. You pay for typical iphone app for around 1$ onwards based on what it is doing. You don't pay for media player and browser these days as they're reaching the mature stage of development from where making money or innovation is very limited.

Bad dealers? They seem to evolve once they come over here and do insane things like pricing a 15k worth phone at 45k. Once again you're comparing with daily life deals. People can always live without iPhones. But they cannot bear it if they miss their morning tea, which is why they grudgingly pay for the milk

 

for starters, you've amazon, ebay, Regnow/Juno/ Apple/ Microsoft regional stores. If you want i can even give you URL's of asian countries if you want. Microsoft has small business support center where they sell volume licensing at affordable costs to business in india. Also as i already posted example of game : plants vs zombies which costs 20$-or so is priced at 199rs, you can check that.

Amazon? Really?! The site india.amazon.com is nothing but a boring site about the Amazon Development Centers in India - it is not a shopping site. And on Amazon.com, China and Japan are the only Asian countries having regional sites. Ebay.in is good, but you only get local items and there isn't as much variety as on ebay.com. As for the others, well can't comment much as I don't know too much about them. Plants vs Zombies is an example for an effort which tries to encourage people to buy original. Problem is that such games don't appeal to people. They want games like God of War, Need for Speed etc, which are still directly converted. As a latest example, the official FIFA World Cup game costs $60 which is almost Rs.2700. It's sold here for Rs.2500.(PS3 version) Don't get me started about what other useful things can be bought with Rs.2500!

 

so is it that stealing has to be justified by way of either if it's day to day item or it's not ? i don't think of television as day-to-day item for myself but if someone thinks it is then stealing it is not crime right ? hmm..

The thing with day-to-day items is that people feel uncomfortable without them. Software purchases do not fit into this category, because if they don't get it they just feel disappointed and leave it at that. They don't take it to be the end of the world. That's why day-to-day items are given more preference always.

 

i beg to differ here. Companies like infosys, cognizant which is taking money on hourly basis and are having competitve to prices in us/uk/au. Cheating is not possible on international scale as it's matter of international trade & credentials of country. What you see as bidding and cheating on projects is for project below 1k$ of IM, freelancing, transcription and other small jobs. High paying projects if start to cheat outsourced countries like this then it'll be issue with international trading. It's not that easy to cheat on larger projects. Larger projects are still paid on hourly payment.It's just that asians are used to monthly salaries without understanding the profit their company makes when they charge hourly to client.

By "cheating" I didn't mean they are promising something and giving far less, but I'm saying that the promised amount itself is less. The companies are very efficient and pay their employees as promised. It's just that what they have promised is far below than what the work is really worth.

 

They can afford to pay for software if their company starts to pay hourly instead of random calculated monthly salary. tongue.gif

Hourly or monthly.....in the end it's still less compared to what the job could fetch them in a developed country.

 

What 40k personal purchase has to do with it?

Ask anyone here whether they would have spent 40, 000 on a computer in the year 2000 and most of the people would say NO without hesitating. Computers were popular only to technology enthusiasts. For others it was just an additional expense. Even today most people are buying computers for reasons like keeping in touch with loved ones, checking results, etc. Majority of the users don't do anything else than these few things which explains why they're not too interested in the software industry.

 

Banks turned into internet banking after 1999 and that these stats of computer literacy is what i call enjoyment cause these numbers suggest that there is improvement in computer users after 1999 and this decade (2000-2010) we're seeing the stats which proves my statement. Just because computers were expensive back then doesn't stopped people to purchased them. Even you purchased it at that high prices, that applies to me as well.

The stats are right - there are indeed a lot more computer users and internet users as well. But try to guess how many of them take an active interest in using various software for their computers. Don't think about the software professionals - think about the general public. Think about the bigger picture and you'll see that majority of the people don't know what their computers are capable of and use it for just basic purposes.

 

i rarely see such people in asia as cost of pc is lowered into 15k, i doubt if it burns a hole pocket. If they can afford 10k television, 12k refrigerator then they can afford 15k-18k computer.

Yet again the comparision with daily life - these things top the priority list of purchases. It is just the computer which makes them think a lot because they may or may not be having too much use with it.

 

You're trying to defend people who work at salary below 1lakh/anum and are purchasing computers but failing to defend people who have more than 2-3lakh/anum and can afford 40k computer with software purchases. Later case is in more number in asia than first.

I'm not defending anyone I'm just telling the situation as it is. If you're talking only about India then the 2-3 lakh/annum category is in the minority; you can't deny that. If you're talking about Asia, then yes countries like Singapore and Japan do have people belonging to that category. I'm unaware of any more facts about these countries so I'll be silent here too.

 

So that's it. I've had some fun talking about this topic although I have to admit there were we long ago deviated from the original topic I'll do make some short comments after your next reply, but I've had enough with these lengthy discussions on whether or not to run after fame and money through software development


mahesh2k

I don't know why you're tired, discussion like this is always interesting.

So you're saying that Wordpress, Ubuntu and similar projects were started with an intention to do business? If that had been their sole intention they wouldn't have lasted this long! I do agree, however, that they have adopted business-like tactics now (Ubuntu focusing a lot on its store, etc) but they have done some good work so those sort of tactics are excusable.

Matt mullen of wordpress and shuttleworth of canonical admitted in many interviews that they wanted to build business by taking advantage of open source and community model. It's just that because of success of these project we neglect their intention. Why any businessman like shuttleworth will give something for free espcially when he's from south africa ?

Actually, the damage is still in the very early stage. I have a theory that if both the worlds co-exist, eventually they will balance out each other's pros and cons and it would be a bright aspect for developers and users alike. As of now I can't expand on this theory, though.

I kinda think about this theory too.

I visited the Indian version of the Apple site and searched for Apple stores in Mumbai. The first 5-6 results all pointed to CROMA, which is an electronics store dealing with all sorts of brands. It does have the "Apple Shop" logo beneath Croma but is it an exclusively Apple shop? I'm asking really because I don't know! I've never seen an "Apple-only" shop anywhere so far.

Apple store in mumbai is not in good condition, with just 2 employees in apple store. Besides you can see their shop not in list in apple site. Apple didn't even listed it's store in pune as well. Chroma shops don't sell AIR and Macbook.

Well I didn't say the itunes charged $4-5 for a song! If I'm right, the price is $0.99 per song - which amounts to around Rs.45. Unless its from a foreign album, Indian albums are generally available under Rs.200, which figures to around $0.33 per song. Need I say more?

nah, most likely after conversion it goes to 45 cents to 70 cents. But depending on payment methods used price will increase/decrease. And indian albums in digital format are available under 200 ?

Smartphone business isn't dull in India - a lot of smartphones from Nokia and RIM are being sold briskly. It's just iPhone's pricing which always turns off most of the people.

make that apple's pricing structure

Amazon? Really?! The site india.amazon.com is nothing but a boring site about the Amazon Development Centers in India - it is not a shopping site. And on Amazon.com, China and Japan are the only Asian countries having regional sites. Ebay.in is good, but you only get local items and there isn't as much variety as on ebay.com. As for the others, well can't comment much as I don't know too much about them. Plants vs Zombies is an example for an effort which tries to encourage people to buy original. Problem is that such games don't appeal to people. They want games like God of War, Need for Speed etc, which are still directly converted. As a latest example, the official FIFA World Cup game costs $60 which is almost Rs.2700. It's sold here for Rs.2500.(PS3 version) Don't get me started about what other useful things can be bought with Rs.2500!

Duh, have you ever used amazon's payment gateway solution ? if yes then i wonder how you moved to india.amazon.com for purchasing. Region for amazon for based on continents and UK/China/US are their regions and sites are made like that. If you sign up to affiliate program of amazon then you'll get this difference and will come to know that how amazon charges to indians.And plant vs zombies don't appeal to people ? *_* it's one of the highest sold game on the internet last year. Lol, you're talking about games as per your preference anyway then the point is ebay shoppers do sell that and they're on amazon as well. And just cause it's priced 2500 are you going to torrent it or steal it ? ahem, are you defending stealing under the excuse of economy and emotion of people ?

Ask anyone here whether they would have spent 40, 000 on a computer in the year 2000 and most of the people would say NO without hesitating.

That is one generalized statement you're making without considering stature of all the people in asia. If it were something like that then people in asia wouldn't have adopted this change to begin with.

The stats are right - there are indeed a lot more computer users and internet users as well. But try to guess how many of them take an active interest in using various software for their computers. Don't think about the software professionals - think about the general public. Think about the bigger picture and you'll see that majority of the people don't know what their computers are capable of and use it for just basic purpose

i've seen many people purchasing office 2003 and i think general public is interested unless we make their interest in a such way that paying is useless.

Yet again the comparision with daily life - these things top the priority list of purchases. It is just the computer which makes them think a lot because they may or may not be having too much use with it.

Again this comparison is made because you're generalizing things about every person in asia when it comes to buying computers.

So that's it. I've had some fun talking about this topic although I have to admit there were we long ago deviated from the original topic tongue.gif I'll do make some short comments after your next reply, but I've had enough with these lengthy discussions on whether or not to run after fame and money through software development smile.gif

lol, fair enough, we can cut it here if you wish.

The Simpleton1405241582

I don't know why you're tired, discussion like this is always interesting.

It's interesting but I'm out of sensible words. I just don't want to blurt out incomplete ideas and fill lines with meaningless words. What I have written already is too general to be taken seriously; I don't want to mutilate it further by writing nonsense. I need time to think and write more and I don't have the patience to think about this topic anymore which is why I'm stopping.

Matt mullen of wordpress and shuttleworth of canonical admitted in many interviews that they wanted to build business by taking advantage of open source and community model. It's just that because of success of these project we neglect their intention. Why any businessman like shuttleworth will give something for free espcially when he's from south africa ?

Well at least they believe in the success of open-source. But yeah it's hard to conceal their true intentions.

Apple store in mumbai is not in good condition, with just 2 employees in apple store. Besides you can see their shop not in list in apple site. Apple didn't even listed it's store in pune as well. Chroma shops don't sell AIR and Macbook

One can't expect the common man to buy Apple's products and the people who can afford to buy them look on the internet first. If they don't put full info on their sites very few people will find their way to these stores.

nah, most likely after conversion it goes to 45 cents to 70 cents. But depending on payment methods used price will increase/decrease. And indian albums in digital format are available under 200 ?

I haven't examined in detail but sites like t-series are offering downloads now at the same rate as CDs.

Duh, have you ever used amazon's payment gateway solution ? if yes then i wonder how you moved to india.amazon.com for purchasing. Region for amazon for based on continents and UK/China/US are their regions and sites are made like that. If you sign up to affiliate program of amazon then you'll get this difference and will come to know that how amazon charges to indians

I don't use Amazon for online shopping. I searched for "Amazon India" in google and got india.amazon.com - that's where the confusion started!

And plant vs zombies don't appeal to people ? *_* it's one of the highest sold game on the internetlast year. Lol, you're talking about games as per your preference tongue.gif


First off, the games I talked about are not the best-sellers today. They are unknown names to me because I can't afford to buy today's latest games. Plants vs Zombies was unknown too until you mentioned it

And just cause it's priced 2500 are you going to torrent it or steal it ? ahem, are you defending stealing under the excuse of economy and emotion of people ?

Of course not. I don't steal through torrents or any other source. In fact I recently bought those two games I mentioned - God of War and Need for Speed - for the PS2 which together cost me Rs.1200. I could have got an entire month's fuel supply with that but it was worth it.

The other stuff you said about generalising things - well that's too general so I'll stop here

lol, fair enough, we can cut it here if you wish.

you can continue if you like - I'll stick to short-line replies for now. Hopefully another member will join the discussion soon

yordan

I'll stick to short-line replies for now.

Great idea!

Hopefully another member will join the discussion soon

Most of them are far away, they have been afraid !And I cannot contribute, I know nothing about the selling price of Apple things in India !

The Simpleton1405241582

And I cannot contribute, I know nothing about the selling price of Apple things in India ! laugh.gif

That was just one of the deviations - we discussed about that after we had discussed about the actual topic. So you could still comment on the actual topic if you have anything to say

mahesh2k

It's interesting but I'm out of sensible words. I just don't want to blurt out incomplete ideas and fill lines with meaningless words. What I have written already is too general to be taken seriously; I don't want to mutilate it further by writing nonsense. I need time to think and write more and I don't have the patience to think about this topic anymore which is why I'm stopping.

Nah, actually discussion is going just fine. You can ask yordan, we discussed lot of points and we're still on topic by deviating so many time.

 

One can't expect the common man to buy Apple's products and the people who can afford to buy them look on the internet first. If they don't put full info on their sites very few people will find their way to these stores.

To be honest even members from US will agree on this point. I don't know what to say on this but seriously it is overpriced on almost every product. Though with the success of AIR/Macbook it's neglected but still even alienware is less expensive if we purchase apple AIR in india

 

I don't use Amazon for online shopping. I searched for "Amazon India" in google and got india.amazon.com - that's where the confusion started!

Lol, amazon accepts and pays to indians by currency processor of their own called "amazon payment solutions". There are some sites or shops that accept this payment solution which is like paypal for some people. You can see donationcoder forum has this processor for their donation banners.

 

Of course not. I don't steal through torrents or any other source. In fact I recently bought those two games I mentioned - God of War and Need for Speed - for the PS2 which together cost me Rs.1200. I could have got an entire month's fuel supply with that but it was worth it.

 

The other stuff you said about generalising things - well that's too general so I'll stop here

wow, that's some good price for these two games..especially price for god of war cause it'll alone cost that amount if purchased at the time when it was launched.

 

you can continue if you like - I'll stick to short-line replies for now. Hopefully another member will join the discussion soon

You know what ? One-liners kill the discussion :s trust me they do.

yordan

Nah, actually discussion is going just fine. You can ask yordan, we discussed lot of points and we're still on topic by deviating so many time.

I agree, the topic came back on rails, and a lot among the discussed items were online with the main subject.

8ennett

wow i'm almost afraid to contribute to this discussion without my comments being dissected and quoted to death lolI will just add though on the topic of apple products. Their new ipad is somewhat worrying. It is ridiculously over-priced and although the price deviates in different countries when sold in shops, the price remains constant online. The amount they are asking for an ipad is still something I wouldnt pay. The practicalities of the actual device itself are limited, it just seems to be more of a glorified iphone than anything. Personally I wouldn't buy one of these gadgets as it would be nothing more than a toy I would get bored of within an hour of receiving it, like a child at christmas.It seems to be more of a tool to keep people occupied with mindless and unproductive tasks more than anything. As technology seems to advance now, it is slowly making us a less and less productive race.Maybe when computer programming is advanced further and is actually able to incorporate full-featured voice commands and touch-screen interface then I will appreciate these types of advancements more.


yordan

Sorry, I could not resist quoting.

The amount they are asking for an ipad is still something I wouldnt pay.

I fully agree with you. I would be proud showing that I have and Ipad while other jealous people can't buy it. But I would never want to pay such an amount of money in order to buy such a thing I could not use because it's keyboard is not the think I love typing on. And of course, it would be an extra half-a-kilogram thing to carry along when I go out from home.

Quatrux

Same here, I personally don't have any interest in using an iPad as it's useless for me, but seems a lot of whom are using/having it just due to be stylish or something like that, even though for someone it may be useful, but the price for me seems to be to overpriced :DI never even bought an iPhone, as I don't really need a toy like that, it seems that iPod was something of an interest to me, as it's quite nice, but still there are cheaper alternatives.


mahesh2k

The thing that makes ipad expensive is it's lack of features. First and most important feature that anyone need is : multitasking. Without multitasking what's the use of paying for that touchscreen snook or kindle on steroid ? I mean seriously, is it even worth paying for ? Be it kindle, snook or ipad if they're priced above 150$ they are not even worth that. In short they're overpriced and over estimated by the marketing companies and people. If they add multi-tasking feature in it then that will make it much promising than what it is as of now.



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