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The World's Biggest Problems Identification and solution


Bikerman

OK, so the big issue is tolerance, yes? Tolerance means letting people do what they want to do and not interfering or nagging/moaning, yes?Now, think carefully, then answer this...a) Who, if anyone, is being intolerant? Me?b ) Is it tolerant to say 'don't do this or we will kill you?'?c) Is it tolerant to say 'I will speak as I like, and you speak as you like?'You see, I think you are actually supporting my position even if you don't mean to. Free speech and tolerance are part of the same thing - letting others, even the ones you don't like, say what they like.


chini13

Now you are getting hyper see this is not tolerance..When your words are not agreed upon you get irritated ( im sorry to be so blunt ..you will hate me more )I wrote that no one is forcing to agree ... with anyone and u are just dragging to prove you are correctWho is not Tolerant you check your words i gues umm hmmRead with a cold mind ..what i saidI said..Good and the bad are present everywhere ...its in the mind..religion has nothing to do with it The people with criminal mind wants a reason to justify their act so they use the religion (religion can't argue on its own so its easy to use it )Again i won't force u to agree with me :) Cheers!!TOLERANCE AND LET LIVE WITH KILLING THE BAD IN HUMAN AND THE WORLD...NOT KILLING A RELIGIONNO RELIGION IS BAD..... Takecare


Bikerman

Now you are getting hyper see this is not tolerance..When your words are not agreed upon you get irritated ( im sorry to be so blunt ..you will hate me more )

I'm not hyper and I'm not irritated and I don't hate you.

I wrote that no one is forcing to agree ... with anyone and u are just dragging to prove you are correct

No, I was trying to clarify what you said, that is all.

Who is not Tolerant you check your words i gues umm hmm
Read with a cold mind ..what i said

I did. Now consider, have I said that anyone should be stopped from doing anything? Have I suggested that any action (apart from illegal ones) should be restricted?

I said..Good and the bad are present everywhere ...its in the mind..religion has nothing to do with it

Religion has a great deal to do with it. Would the threat to murder be there without it?

The people with criminal mind wants a reason to justify their act so they use the religion (religion can't argue on its own so its easy to use it )

Yes, to some extent that is correct. Religion is also a convenient label to classify people - so in Northern Ireland it is easy to say Protestant and Catholic, rather than 'those who with to stay in the Union with the UK, and those that wish to leave the UK and join with Southern Ireland.

Again i won't force u to agree with me :) Cheers!!
TOLERANCE AND LET LIVE WITH KILLING THE BAD IN HUMAN AND THE WORLD...NOT KILLING A RELIGION
NO RELIGION IS BAD.....

Takecare

Sorry - I don't get the sentence above. Tolerance, live and let live, killing the bad? That is a bit ambiguous. You cannot kill the bad and at the same time live and let live....

chini13

No religion says that...go and murder...i don;t think so and i have never heard that...If it was so then...all the people of a particular religion would be murderers and the people following other religions would be good people :)is it true partically ???noooMurderers are found everywhere..And it is correct completely that some people justify themselves by mis presenting the religious beliefAnd Tolerance is not meant only for you and me..its meant for all...even the haters of Humans who are violent are doing so because of non tolerance and they are not letting people liveWe all are included here and its the reason they turn to violence


Bikerman

No religion says that...go and murder...i don;t think so and i have never heard that...If it was so then...all the people of a particular religion would be murderers and the people following other religions would be good people
is it true partically ???

Check some of the quotes in previous messages and you will find the answer. I think you have a rather rose-tinted view of religions. Did you read:

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.)

So kill unbelievers unless they change to believers?Have you ever read the Old Testament? I once estimated the killings at somewhere between 900,000 and 2.2 million....

chini13

im completely against killingim a vegetarian so i don;t kill even to eat And im not killing any disbelieversi respect their individuality :)And i will soon come up with my idology and get some followers :)I will stop arguing now ..as i really don't do that oftenthanks as this conversation made me argue and think a lot

Bikerman

I will stop arguing now ..as i really don't do that oftenthanks as this conversation made me argue and think a lot

That's why we do it :-)

anwiii

i still don't know why you quoted what you did when we were talking about YOUR beliefs. at least i was until you started quoting other people.

i know you see the confusion why everyone should respect peoples differences. but i will tell you why. it's because our differences bond us together. i don't have to agree with a full religious belief to respect it. i see the good in it to respect it. are you saying there is no good in any other peoples personal beliefs that should never be respected? now seriously bikerman, if you believe that, then i take away my hypocrit comment will just call you a fool from now on. you're a teacher buddy. you of all people should know what would happen if your students didn't respect your own personal beliefs in being a teacher. again, we ALL have something to learn from eachother and everyones beliefs in that sense should ALWAYS be respected! now i never said i respect all religious beliefs or believe in them. if i did, i would be religious myself. what i do is take in what means something to me while seperating the b.s. for ME and my own personal beliefs and the way i choose to live my life

oh yea, that to. the rights of others and their beliefs should be protected as long as their beliefs and action don't support committing major crimes. especially against people. but please don't put words in my mouth as if that was what i was talking about. don't show your ignorance around me. this is not a debate about my own intelligence and what i should have included or said.

t.v. just like movies have a rating system. i think cursing is appropriate on some channels and on other channels it is innappropriate. so if you are asking me if i want to see cursing on sesame street, then my answer is no. i would never condone it! and this is the freedom of speech you support? how do we please everyone? we don't. that is why there has to be compromise on both side while respecting both sides by understanding the other persons views to a certain degree as one is capable.

excersizing freedom of speech without restrictions is DEFINATLEY power. look at the domestic violence cases where men were verbally abusive to women and how over time, it changed women's self esteem/self. oh yea....freedom of speech is VERY powerfull! and with it comes great responsibility! i will not stray away from my stand on this one! do i think drawing a cartoon is an excersize of power? depends on the cartoon and what it states and who is seeing it. i can't answer that vague question without mroe details. but the more people who are subject to other people rights of freedom of speech, the more powerfull freedom of speech becomes.

i didn't try to intimate that you were only drawing cartoons on one religion. a typical athiest is not anti god or anti religion though. you seem to be since all i see you doing is attatcking all the threads that hold religious beliefs in them. so when i see it more than once, and a pattern forming from your past posts, i can start assuming you are anti religion and i am sure i wouldn't be too off the mark with that statement. atheism is MOST CERTAINLY a belief! it is the belief to NOT believe. it's just not a religion.

i am going in to la la land? is that all a teacher can come up with? see i expected nothing more from you. as i stated previously, you don't respect other peoples beliefs and what they have to offer. you have absolutely no understanding of others. this is why you are arguing all the time. not believing in santa clasue is most DEFINATELY a belief! if someone were to tell me that they didn't believe in santa clause, their belief will then be to disbelieve but don't let your freedom of speech and beliefs get in the way of ruining the magic for small children.

my 5 beliefs? you will have to quote me so i know what context i was talking about if i even said that at all. also, my personal beliefs outside this thread should be of no concern to you so please don't ask what my personal beliefs towards the gods are.

yea, i am with you on that one. i get insulted every time someone preaches to me. that's why i don't like seeing your preaching either. i wouldn't tell a anyone they are a hypocrite unless they showed they were one. you have shown you are one. you just admitted that you get insulted when you get preached to by someone elses beliefs yet you do it your own self. you have done NOTHING but preach disrespectfully in this thread. i only stepped in because i wanted to shed some light on a couple things. if you don't have the respect or understanding in why i say, then fine. if so, even better. like i said. our differences bond everyone together as we all have something to learn from others....even adults learning from children. you want a boring and fulfilling life? try to imagine a world where everyone believed in the same things. let's take it a step further and imagine a world where everyone believed everything you do. who are we going to learn from? can't learn from eachother anymore because evidently in that world, everyone knows it all....or thinks they do. our differences make us unique and special in a way where it allows us to offer something to others that they don't already have. i just don't believe in doing it by breaching and insulting people. that is MY belief where i am taking a stand in this thread.

so if you don't believe beliefs are personal, then how did you come to believe in what you did? did someone tell you to believe the way you do? did you read some book and agree with it so that is what you believe today? or was it from your own personal experiences and thought along your personal journy through life? if you don't think your beliefs are personal, please tell me where they came from then. come on...

well if you are stating you aren't a hypocrite then, then i can come up with a lot of information about you. i like look at your words, take them literal and assume you believe nothing more than what you are writing that wont ever contradict what you write. i can go through your posts and no nitpick it all and assume the worst in what i am seeing out of your beliefs. i only mentioned hypocracy because maybe.....just maybe you made a mistake in writing what you truely believed.

i never said you have religious beliefs. i said flat out that i think your beliefs are ANTI religious beliefs. there is a big differnce there. pay attention to what people write so you don't confuse yourself.

my constitution that i was brought up believing in for the most part is not relevant here. you don't live where i do so you will have nothing to relate your comments to just like you have nothing to relate your comments to when you disrespect other people from other cultures.

you are possibly right about one thing. my definitions may differ slightly to other peoples definition. if you call that a fundamental problem, then i feel sorry for you because again, all that promotes is everyone being the same and believing the same. i will tell you one thing, when it comes to putting my thoughts to words and to paper, sometimes it is difficult for me but it will NEVER be a disability. not for those who respect other peoples beliefs through trying to understand others.

when a jehovas witness comes knocking at my door and i am stupid enough to answer it, yes, i will respect their beliefs even if i don't like the go about teaching others their beliefs. the difference between you and i is i am more respectfull and understanding. i understand these men and women found something that fullfills them. GOOD FOR THEM i say. i think everyone should find that which fullfills them either through religion or other means. i can respect someones beliefs even if i don't agree with them. that's the difference between you and i. i also believe jehovas witnesses have EVERY RIGHT to state their beliefs as long as they aren't doing anything illegal and within the limits of respecting my own beliefs. you see i don't believe what they do. after listening for a minute and respectfully giving them a bit of my time, i can tell them to get off my lawn in a nice way and they normally will respect that. now if i were to curse them when they walk to my door because i don't agree with how they are promoting their beliefs, we would have a problem. it would create negativity from MY end. although i am not perfect, i try to be positive without creating a negative approach to my own beliefs. i try to have a little balance between people and what they believe.

if you were sorry you offended him, you would have stopped offending him. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. that is why i told you that you shouldn't appologized. because your appology means nothing. now you are claiming it is neccessary to offend people sometimes? so now we are getting to know you even better now. i am glad. you had no intention of changing the cartoon for one person when i know your cartoon is not directed soley on one person. that would be stupid. you and i both know your true intentions. i see past the b.s. bikerman. even yours.

i want to quote what you said so everyone is clear in what YOU believe.....

Learn that respecting beliefs is both impossible and undesirable



we will be learning things like this from you ever day i would imagine. thanks, but i will stick to my own beliefs. not one who is incapable of understanding others.

EDIT:

god, i never said that i believe people should respect and admire other peoples beliefs. just respect other peoples beliefs. to admire is to say you agree with the beliefs. respecting them is coming to the understanding that we can learn a lot of good from most any religion or belief. i don't think any religion is BAD nor do i see people as BAD.

chini and wd- it's not worth it. he has absolutely no understanding towards others and their beliefs. he's a teacher but can't respect his students belief since the quote above says it is impossible for him to do so.

bikerman, i don't come here to argue. i come here to prove a point and to possibly make you see something in a different light or at least admit to how it may be possible that your beliefs have somehow been tarnished through living your own personal life. i will even accept a devil's advocate excuse for being so naive. in any case, you are wrong. this is NOT why some of us argue. this is not why web designer popped in. i was a bit shocked she did because i know her and it had to be something VERY important for her to enter in to a religious debate.

again, get your facts straight when you choose to talk about people and why some people feel a need to enter in to a conversation.

Bikerman

You are very confused. Try reading back your posting...it is giving me a headache trying to reconcile the contradictions and ambiguities.

If you seriously think that lack of belief is a belief then all I can suggest is that you do some more study.

You are very quick to use the charge of ignorance and stupidity - whilst displaying rather ovbvious signs of both. Not a good look.

Let's try to plough through the major confusion.

oh yea, that to. the rights of others and their beliefs should be protected as long as their beliefs and action don't support committing major crimes. especially against people

Just how do you suggest we protect beliefs? We can do what I propose - which is to make it a right to hold any belief you like. Or we can do what you propose - respect everyone's beliefs (unless they are illegal).So when a creationist tells you that they believe the world is 6324 years old, was created pretty much as it is - and so on - then you propose that this should be respected whereas I propose that it is a delusion which is dangerous. Why dangerous? Because it leads to a reliance on third party material for definitions of truth. If you can persuade youself that science is wrong, and all you have for that assertion is faith in an interpretation of a 3000 year old text, then you believe absurdity. I can do no better than Volataire in pointing to the possible result - "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Rational people (prepared to be convinced by evidence) do not generally commit attrocities. Why would a rational person blow themselves up for a cause? They wouldn't unless they had bought into a non-religious absurdity such as marxism=science. If you do not think Voltaire was right then I suggest you haven't been paying attention to the world.

So no, I will not respect absurd belief - that which is refuted by evidence - because I don't have any respect for nonsense as a world view - whether religious or secular.

next.

excersizing freedom of speech without restrictions is DEFINATLEY power. look at the domestic violence cases where men were verbally abusive to women and how over time, it changed women's self esteem/self.

No it isn't. If you exercise your freedom of speech and i don't like what you are saying, I walk away and stop listening. Boom, you suddenly have no audience, and no power.In the case of domestic violence then yes - the thing is that it is not the views expressed that are the problem. It is the existing power relationship that allows the abuse to damage. If I were to constantly put down or verbally abuse my wife, she would walk out, because we have a fairly even power balance. Many women don't - they are dependant on husbands for finance, tied down with children to the home, and there is always the chance of physical violence which makes them endure the verbal assaults. Without a pre-existing hold (power) over the women then abusive words have no power. In the same way a teacher has a power relationship with pupils, so it is not appropriate for me to express myself as I might wish in all circumstances in my professional role. The students have to listen which immediately defines an unequal relationship with more power on my side. The same applies in any relationship with an uneven power balance - which is why we have rules about doctors and psychiatrists having relationships with their patients.
Drawing a cartoon is not an exercise of power unless I can also compel people to look at it. Freedom of speech does not mean that people have to listen - they are equally free to ignore my speech and, again, that means there is no 'power'.

next

since all i see you doing is attatcking all the threads that hold religious beliefs in them.

It is not my responsibility to answer for your faulty perceptions. I think the number of threads I am involved in which contain a religious theme are 3 or 4. The fact that you don't read the many others on maths, physics or problem solving is not something I feel inclined to worry about, let alone get irritated by. Read what you want, and if that leads you to the conclusion that 'all I do is attack threads....' etc then that is your belief which you are entitled to. I don't think I can be expected to respect it though
next

like i said. our differences bond everyone together as we all have something to learn from others...

That is a crass overgeneralisation. Difference is not good per se, and does not posses some quality of binding in itself. I will illustrate with the example of a creationist - a viewpoint very different from mine and therefore a useful exemplar.If I have the choice, on a social occasion, of talking to someone interested in science and technology, or talking to a creationist who wishes to discuss Romans 1, then I'll take the former on any social occasion. If I chose the creationist then our views are so very different that neither would feel they had anything to learn from the other, since science requires evidence and faith doesn't. There is no common currency for any exchange.
Now if the creationist also happens to like Miles Davis and wants to go to a club - I'm there and we can yarn about blues all night. Likewise, if the creationist has something else interesting - maybe he is an illusionist or a great singer - no problem, we will do fine.
The point? Differences are not what bind people together - a quick look at any history book should disabuse you of that notion. Differences can be interesting and can broaden the outlook when engaged with, but they can also divide and force people into narrow defensive stances.

next

so if you don't believe beliefs are personal, then how did you come to believe in what you did?

This arises because you were attempting to chop logic with me. You setup a scenario where belief=personal therefore to express belief in public is hypocrisy.It is a nonsense argument which I did not feel like spending time on, so I merely pointed out that you had defined the terms, not I. If you really want to push this then 30 seconds thought should be enough to see how ridiculous the argument is, and if you really can't see it then seek council with wiser heads.

next

well if you are stating you aren't a hypocrite then, then i can come up with a lot of information about you.

Fine, do so. Point out my hypocrisy - I will thank you for it since I am unaware of any and I would therefore be very glad if someone pointed it out to me so I could do something about it.
next

i never said you have religious beliefs. i said flat out that i think your beliefs are ANTI religious beliefs. there is a big differnce there. pay attention to what people write so you don't confuse yourself.

No reply necessary - the words refute themselves. I suggest the lack of concentration isn't with me....go through that para again and you will find the fallacy in the first 2 sentences.

next

Learn that respecting beliefs is both impossible and undesirable

Yes, this is a common tactic in debate known as the selective or partial quote. It is perfectly clear when you read my words in context that they are both correct and actually quite trivially obvious. Given a set of beliefs N, where N(x) is in contradiction with N(y) then there is no way to respect N(x) and N(y) in any meaningful use of the word respect.Thus I do not respect, or even try to respect, the views of bigots. Their views are perfectly legal - if people wish to believe that blacks are inferior, or that women are meant to look after men, then that is their right. It is my right to ignore them or not as I see fit and it is certainly not their right to expect my respect for their views.
I could then develop this and go through a list of beliefs that I find unworthy of respect, but that would just be a waste since the single example illustrates the general case.

and to be honest, my headache is getting no better so I think I will stop at that point. I don't see much in the rest worthy of comment, so I will use the rest of my time this evening in more interesting and stimulating debate.

Nighty night.

zanzibarjones

personally, i think WOMEN are one of the worlds biggest problems. i mean, you can't live with 'm and you can't live without 'm. that promotes a BIG problem in my book!
oh yea, and the struggle for world peace....


Here here!!! On yeah and lack of beer distribution to the rest of the world. Drink a pint, save a life. That's what I always say... ok I don't really say that, I just made it up

anwiii

Here here!!! On yeah and lack of beer distribution to the rest of the world. Drink a pint, save a life. That's what I always say... ok I don't really say that, I just made it up

haha! that's pretty funny bud

bikerman, i know why you are getting a headach. it's because you hate being confronted by someone elses truth besides your own. when it comes to people and understanding them, i am FAR from confused. that's why i entered this topic. i saw what you were doing and thought it was wrong so i decided to dig a little deeper and found out a lot more than i wanted to know from a so-called "teacher". sounds to me you are so wrapped up being a "teacher", you refuse to be taught anything except what you read. to choose not to believe in something specific, IS a belief. you are actually making a choice not to do something according to your own beliefs. i am sorry if that confuses you. i am sorry you don't get it. i am sorry that other people have to listen to your lies and hypocracies and ignorance and stupidity. yes i said it. you are all three. actually, i don't think your stupid, but you sure act it. you are more ignorant about people than anything else. and yes, when i can read several things that you have said in the past that contradict, it makes you a hypocrite.

we protect beliefs by respecting their beliefs even if we don't agree with them. we also should choose to resepect them as individuals. just because over a billion people follow a certain religion doesn't mean they are the same. this is where your ignorance really shines through by telling someone you wrote a cartoon knowing it would cause tention. you not only held no respect for the religion, but you held absolutely no respect to the individual you were talking to. you don't see anything good. you just see something to argue. that is VERY subjective of you. you even admited to chini that is why you are argueing. because you like to argue. you even put a smiley face after your words like this is some kind of joke to you.

so now you create a specific scenario for me to answer about creationism. i will answer it. yes. you respect that belief as much as you respect your freedom of speach you keep preaching about. it's quite simple really. if you believe so strongly in freedom of speach and that act should be respected, then obviously, you should believe is freedom of beliefs whether or not they are put in to words or not. doesn't a belief come before freedom of speach? if you don't believe in anything or have nothing to talk about, then what good would promoting freedom of speach? this is just another example of your hypocracy. you can respect their freedom of speech but not their beliefs? that is contradictory!

why would someone die for a cause? i dunno. are you saying there is nothing in this world dying for? maybe for you there isn't. things may be nonsense to YOU but it may not be nonsense to someone else. personally, i think YOU are the one talking nonsense right now.

well, i am really really glad that you are liking what i am saying right now or you would have walked away a long time ago. is that the case? but btw, i can have power in my words whether you walk away or not. i think people like you are a big problem in society. you think i would stop talking about my own beliefs just because you walk away? you're outta your mind to even assume that. if i believe in something so strong, i will keep talking until i am blue in the face and keep on talking until my face turns another color. you are trying to turn my statement around. instead of speach being a powerfull tool, you are saying an audience is a more powerfull tool. true. as i stated before, the more people listening, the more powerfull speech becomes so it's just a matter of finding an audience even if one man walks away. there will ALWAYS be someone listening unless someone just likes talking to themselves. like right now. if you walked away, it wouldn't give me less power. it would give me MORE power for reasons beyond your understanding. but simply put, i have more ears on me that agree with my point of views than you do.

there is alwaysa chance for domestic violence? why do you say that? because statistics shows that it happens? if you take every couple in the world and compare domestic violence, OFCOURSE there is a chance of it. what is your point???you and your wife have an equal power balance? how is that possible? you already stated it is impossible to respect someone elses beliefs so if you don't respect your wifes beliefs, what makes it equal? she doesn't respect yours? haha! some relationship you have going there. either way i look at it it seems a bit dysfuctional. one thing that makes a marriage a marriage is that two people are joined together to become dependant on one another. when you live dependant on eachother. not just the wives, but the husbands too. if you can't depend on the other person, how is there a marriage?

you talk about students having to listen to you? no buddy. they don't have to. they can choose NOT to listen to you, they can choose to ditch your class, they can choose to daydream or even fall asleep while you are lecturing. they do NOT have to listen to you. any teacher actually paying attention to all his stupids KNOW that what you are saying is not true. students do NOT have to listen. if they don't, it might hold a consequence. maybe it's a good consequence if this is how you talk to your students.

you said you were going to publish a cartoon. obviously if you're going to publish something, it will have it's reader base already or you are just wasting time, money and effort. maybe that's you. i dunno. maybe you will have nobody to see the cartoon. i am not judging that. i hope you don't. that is just my preference but i think it's fair to assume you do and to try to state otherwise is trying to control this conversation with your freedom of speech you look so highly on even when your freedom of speech decieves people. you don't see a problem with your freedom of speech? i do. so do others.

you don't have to answer to me at all. i agree. but you keep answering. yes, i read several threads that you attacked peoples religious views. i sorta enjoyed the banter between you and truefusion. i would even go so far to say that that was more of a healthy debate than anything else. you two are two peas in a pod in my opinion. both subjective and both stubborn. i kinda got a kick outta watching you two go at it while i was just a fly on the wall. and believe me, i read more topics here than you will ever know. just because i don't get involved doesn't mean i am not there. i am EVERYWHERE here but no. attacking peoples believe is not all what you do. that i can say flat out. i respect a lot what you have to offer. and btw- i don't have faulty perceptions. if i did, i must have a faulty perception of anything good you had to offer in other threads. or are my perceptions only faulty when you don't agree with my perceptions? it's funny you can bring up perception because i can probably write a book on it and i will be GLAD to debate you in another thread about perceptions and what people see. your arrogance dictates that if you don't percieve something to be true, it must not be. your a teacher. you can't afford to be wrong and look foolish.....can you. what would people think if your perceptions your own self were not always right? don't talk about my faulty perceptions until you look in the mirror. you're the pot calling the kettle black.

differences are not good? i couldn't even read what you wrote after that haha sorry. i have no time for ignorance. i will tell you this though. you know what makes up a good marriage? where one is weak in one area, the other is strong. this is why i said earlier that a marriage is two people who depend on eachother. their differences are actually their strengths. same goes for non marriage. people living in a society of differences. people picking up the slack where other people are weak in certain areas. actually, i just read what you said. the differences between a creationist and and atheist should be for a whole other topic. not this one. it's too much to say on that subject and if i were to indulge it, we would be getting off topic here. but i can argue that the differences can make the two stronger. not weaker. i can and will argue that if you start a seperate thread on it. i know it's easy to be blind in how two opposite people can actually hold something in common, but i see it as clear as day my friend. the fact that you don't see it doesn't make it NOT true. again....perception. how people see things.....

that wasn't exactly what i said about expressing beliefs, but i am not going to argue with you. it was simple logic. if you didn't understand it, that is your problem. stop trying to falsely represent what i said or it will cause more confusion.

nextFine, do so. Point out my hypocrisy - I will thank you for it since I am unaware of any and I would therefore be very glad if someone pointed it out to me so I could do something about it.

i have pointed out several instances where you were contradictory already. please go back and re-read. you must have skipped those parts. i understand why you may have. nobody likes to look like they don't know what they are talking about.

Yes, this is a common tactic in debate known as the selective or partial quote. It is perfectly clear when you read my words in context that they are both correct and actually quite trivially obvious. Given a set of beliefs N, where N(x) is in contradiction with N(y) then there is no way to respect N(x) and N(y) in any meaningful use of the word respect.

you lost me. let's NOT talk in nerd language. is that how you talk to everyone you know?
some people are biggots. some people are racists some people have not so good qualities in the eyes of others. that does NOT mean their whole belief system is wrong. what i am saying and what i have always said is that all religions or all beliefs systems(in whole) are not just BAD. they hold something good and the hold something that others can learn from. to ignore someone just because you see the bad or something you don't agree with with ultimately limit you in the other things you can see which are GOOD. so when you choose to disassociate yourself, you aren't hurting anyone but your own self. you aren't learning a darn thing because you aren't understanding the whole picture of who a person is. don't go through a list. i was never talking about the individual pieces of a puzzle. i was talking about the whole picture. if we judge a puzzle just by the pieces that we see first, and choose not to see the rest of the pieces, then the puzzle can never be viewed and that is a shame because the puzzle, in effect, is a masterpiece. i know you may hold no patience to understand people. but patience in key to understanding sometimes....especially when some people are very deceptive in who they really are. if you don't hold patience, how can you be a good teacher? you can you judge a whole person my one thing they said or one thing they believe in or one thing they did that you may not agree with? i am sure there is a lot more to people than the fact that other people may disagree with SOME of their choices.

Bikerman

haha! that's pretty funny bud
bikerman, i know why you are getting a headach. it's because you hate being confronted by someone elses truth besides your own. when it comes to people and understanding them, i am FAR from confused. that's why i entered this topic. i saw what you were doing and thought it was wrong so i decided to dig a little deeper and found out a lot more than i wanted to know from a so-called "teacher". sounds to me you are so wrapped up being a "teacher", you refuse to be taught anything except what you read. to choose not to believe in something specific, IS a belief. you are actually making a choice not to do something according to your own beliefs. i am sorry if that confuses you. i am sorry you don't get it. i am sorry that other people have to listen to your lies and hypocracies and ignorance and stupidity. yes i said it. you are all three. actually, i don't think your stupid, but you sure act it. you are more ignorant about people than anything else. and yes, when i can read several things that you have said in the past that contradict, it makes you a hypocrite.


You obviously have a learning difficulty and you also are quite dishonest. Given those two I think it would be inappropriate to debate with you any more since you are incapable of undestanding and will simply carry on lying.
When you say things like

you not only held no respect for the religion, but you held absolutely no respect to the individual you were talking to. you don't see anything good. you just see something to argue.

it is a lie.
When you say things like

how is that possible? you already stated it is impossible to respect someone elses beliefs so if you don't respect your wifes beliefs, what makes it equal? she doesn't respect yours?

You are not only lying but you are lying in a personally offensive way. I have never said that I don't respect ANY beliefs -the trouble is you don't read what is written. I said that the assumption that all beliefs are worthy of respect is wrong and dangerous.

Since you cannot understand what is written without twisting or lying about it then I can only assume that you respect the views of idiots and wish to demonstrate their utility. I would recommend some basic courses in english comprehension but you are too arrogant to take such advice, I suspect.

Some people's view are not worth respecting because they are simply stupid or dishonest. You are in that category.
To show that your freedom of speech has no power is easy. I just walk away from you.

anwiii

Learn that respecting beliefs is both impossible and undesirable - respecting the right to hold them is what you should be doing.


i didn't lie. i didn't say the above quote. YOU did. so i wanted to compare what you said to what i said about your wife's beliefs is she an exception to your beliefs and freedoms of speech? if you aren't the hypocrite, then obviously you don't respect your wife's beliefs according to the quote you wrote above.

i am done with you. i have proven my points over and over and over again and you like to argue about things that don't matter and you like to stray away from the original topic.

but i will STILL take my firm stand by stating again that you and people like you are part of the worlds biggest problems. i have run in to your kind many times. you have no resepct for peoples beliefs. if someone says something, you are SO quick to call them a liar and how the way they word things are wrong. you want people to believe the way YOU believe. you want people to think like YOU. the free speech you promote is only beneficial if it applies to YOU. not the people knocking at your door exercising their free speech. you look down on people if you think you know more than them. your response when someone calls you a hypocrite is to call THEM a hypocrite. you choose to believe that black holes exist over a god even when you can't prove that either exists or even disprove that either exists.

so while you are trying to hide your good qualities, i will try to find them. and i will.....because i am tired of hearing your b.s and the only way to find those hidden good qualities is to dig deeper through your b.s.

now i have given you my proof in how i didn't lie in what you took personally offensive. i am not a liar or dishonest or have some form of learning disability(haha were you trying to teach me something? because right now, *I* am the teacher....BAD student!). there is a difference between dishonesty and being brutally honest and telling people something about them they don't want to hear and don't want others to know about them.

if you came to this forum to argue false logic and insult other peoples beliefs and way of thinking, you came to the wrong place. because in fact, i will ALWAYS support respecting other peoples beliefs in this forum. something a newbie like you refuses to do.

now if you are done now because the truth came out, then walk away. that is your choice. the rest of us can get back on topic. after all you wanted to talk about was religion and beliefs.

Bikerman

i didn't lie. i didn't say the above quote. YOU did. so i wanted to compare what you said to what i said about your wife's beliefs is she an exception to your beliefs and freedoms of speech? if you aren't the hypocrite, then obviously you don't respect your wife's beliefs according to the quote you wrote above.

Something else you might learn - the difference between 'respecting beliefs' - plural as in respecting everyones belief, and respecting an individual belief such that my wife or anyone else might have. It is a bit subtle for you, I know, but if you had read the rest of the posting which you lifted the quote from, then you would understand it. I even illustrated it as a simple expression - but you didn't understand that either. I respect the beliefs of many people on many things. They have one thing in common - they are based on knowledge and expertise rather than faith and waffle.

You are arguing against yourself.
Do you think that paedophile beliefs are worthy of respect? No. Therefore inescapable conclusion - not all beliefs are worthy of respect. And it follows that : the assertion that you should respect everyones belief is a dangerous fallacy.
QED

zanzibarjones

I respect the beliefs of many people on many things. They have one thing in common - they are based on knowledge and expertise rather than faith and waffle.


There are many beliefs systems based on faith. All religions are based on faith. Your belief in science is based on faith.
There are too many uncertainties in this world to have anything based on fact. And I would bet to say that there are more beliefs based on faith then there are beliefs based on facts.

anwiii

And I would bet to say that there are more beliefs based on faith then there are beliefs based on facts.


what would YOU rather believe in? faith, or FACT?

zanzibarjones

what would YOU rather believe in? faith, or FACT?


Hmmmm... good question. Well fact is undeniable. "If I had seen it with my own eyes..."
But having faith allows you to believe at a different level I think. Fact is very concrete, no room for imagination.
Faith is belief based on trust. Fact is belief based on itself.
Man that's a good question....

I think i would rather believe in faith, gut feeling. I guess if I have concrete evidence for something, then I don't need to 'believe in it' it just IS a fact.

Bikerman

There are many beliefs systems based on faith. All religions are based on faith. Your belief in science is based on faith.There are too many uncertainties in this world to have anything based on fact. And I would bet to say that there are more beliefs based on faith then there are beliefs based on facts.

Faith is belief without evidence or in spite of evidence. Science does not rely on faith, it relies on adopting a sensible, rational approach to the evidence and where the evidence is lacking I do not believe.
I don't 'believe' in my house - I know for a reasonably certain fact that it exists. I don't 'believe' in science in the same way.

thenewguy

Extracts from Bikerman's posts:

I am a member of a group which is dedicated to protecting freedom of speech in the UK and supporting anyone who is targetted for expressing themselves...ANYONE who threatens free speech is the target of our group.
Either you support free speech - which means the freedom for those you disagree with, as well as those you agree with, or you don't.

I was discussing the cartoon on another forum (Frih-host) with one of the other members, and a young muslim lad posted a stream of abuse and threats, telling us he would behead us ..and various other sillyness....(I am a moderator at Frih so I had to ban him)


Makes me wonder...

I do not employ double-standards...


Side-note:

If the 'offence' occurred in the UK then you would be tried according to UK laws. If it occurred in Pakistan then Pakistan laws would apply.

Does that mean if Russian person launches a nuclear missile from Russia, destroying half of America, he will be tested according to Russian law?

Bikerman

Extracts from Bikerman's posts:


Makes me wonder...

What makes you wonder?
There is no double standards - users of the Frih system sign up to Terms and Conditions. I said I HAD to ban him, not that I wanted to. He had broken terms and conditions and therefore the decision had to be made (in fact it wasn't really a decision, since there was no way I could have decided otherwise and still been acting properly).

I have not signed up for any terms and conditions on my own websites so I can and will say what I like. That is completely consistent and entirely rational. Forums are not generally entirely free speech. The owners and/or sponsors restrict what users can say and how they can say it. It is then up to the user whether they use the forum or not.

As for Russia - it would depend but yes, that would be the normal position. Obviously firing a nuke is not quite normal so you are not citing a comparable case. If a Russian shot your embassy staff then they would be tried in Russia, even though your embassy is US territory. Likewise if a Russian went to the US to kill someone and was caught, they would be tried in the US.
This is not rocket science - it is just standard application of international and national law.


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