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What Else?


truefusion

To satisfy the needs of individuals, i have decided to form a topic that will determine whether or not a revision or an addition of the current enforcing of the rules is required, and if so, how.

 

First off, what are our current ways in enforcing the rules?*

 

1. Directing users to the rules.

 

What are the means?*

Introduction forum

Shoutbox

Directions when attempting to sign up for a hosting account.

Denial of hosting application

Personal Messages (PMs)

Notes

What is or are the drawbacks of each mean?

Introduction forum: user attention. If a user does not take the time to read and consider the posts in their or someone else's topic, then the posters posted in vain; however, that is not to say that there wasn't any enforcing of the rules. Another one would be that all users don't introduce themselves.

Shoutbox: time of informative shout being within the vision and time of the new user; that is, if the user is not present during the time that the informative shout was given, then the informative shout may be over powered by regular shouts before the user has any time to see it. Another one would be the user's care to click on the Xisto Readme link or to copy and paste any URLs that is directed to the Readme or rules into the address bar of their browser in order to navigate there.

Directions when attempting to sign up for a hosting account: the user's care to read the rules before filling out the hosting application and submitting it.

Denial of hosting application: there is really no significant drawback to this one. I see it to be common sense for one to see why their hosting application was denied. Also, some, after being denied hosting, leave and move on to other locations. If anything, it falls back on the user's care, mostly with those who apply with zero posts, as i would assume that some with zero posts just read the first sentence, contribute, and then hope to be accepted the next time around.

Personal Messages: the only thing i can think of is the user not viewing their PMs for whatever reason.

Notes: if the user does not go back into the topic and read the note, then the user is not informed.

2. Addressing violations of the rules.

 

What are the means?*

Notes

Denial of hosting application

Personal Messages (PMs)

Warnings (literal)

What is or are the drawbacks of each mean?

Notes: same as previous.

Denial of hosting application: same as previous.

Personal Messages: same as previous.

Warnings: if it doesn't affect their credits or hosting or ability to post, it may not matter to them.

Other Comments

 

By stating the drawbacks of the current methods, i am in no way implying that these methods should be taken down or done away with. But by stating the drawbacks we can help identify where it is that they can be improved on. Currently, i see no way that the ones i've mentioned could be improved without taking a deeper and parental relationship with users, as following the rules is dependent on the person; that is, they have to care to some extent in order to follow the rules; and even then, they may only follow a few rules or just see a need to follow the rule(s) that they were caught violating.

 

Previous Suggestions

 

Grammar Patrol Insignia

 

A suggestion by Misanthrope, that was inspired by Velma's statement, was to add another insignia specifying "Grammar Patrol." What is the purpose of insignias? Do you require an insignia in order to report posts? Do you require an insignia to fill in signature or banner requests? So what do insignias mean? They basically mean that the one bearing the insignia has been found working in that area more than others (or at least that's how i see it). Peronsally, i see that the "Spam Patrol" insignia statisfies the suggestion for a "Grammar Patrol" insignia. So, do we need a "Grammar Patrol" insignia?

 

Educating the masses.

 

That is, taking the users through school again. Tikiprincess, being an English teacher herself, has started a tutorial on grammar, and has promised more. We could include the first tutorial in the Xisto Readme (assuming this tutorial will later link to the series).

 

Enforce the rules

 

The only way to enforce the rules more than it is already enforced is to do it to a bigger degree. This may include (but is not limited to) doing away with verbal warnings, place a link to the rules everywhere, motivating even more users to direct people to the rules, etc.

 

BuffaloHELP has set up an announcement which is viewable throughout each forum, that links to the Xisto Readme. To continue adding more links to the rules would be a bit exaggerating or a bit extreme, in my opinion.

 

Verbal warnings should not be done away with; although, you can still keep verbal warnings and enforce the rules to a bigger degree—but to me, that would be changing nothing.

 

The current establishments should be enough of a reason to give motivation to all users. But if we were to try anyway, some might take up the assumption, "Well, if others are doing it, then i may not be needed," and therefore give the impression that our tactic(s) did not work, even though the topic implies that a lot of people are needed. Or they could just say they will, but later on show that they didn't keep true to their words.

 

Additional Thoughts

 

Although apathy towards the rules is usually what gets users to not (fully) follow the rules, there is a punishment for each violation. And then there's apathy towards the punishment(s). But if a user is not going to care, then they don't have to continue being part of the forums.

 

Conclusion

 

So, any of you see or feel the need to add to or modify the current system?

 

[hr=noshade] [/hr]

* If you have any more, kindly add to the list, as this was only an attempt to list them all.


BuffaloHelp

Oh Christ!! I knew this will come one day.I was totally against "Spam Patrol" since everyone should be patrolling for spam anyway. And then one day Albus, Michael and SM decided to form this clan to be more visible in the forum... and now it's leading up to "Grammar Patrol."What gives one person to be so much better, so much intelligent than others that a Grammar Patrol is needed? What, they think they can correct other's writing style just to prove...what I wonder. Are their lives so much dull that they have to infest and infect Xisto internet community as well?I should have kicked all those problem makers in the first place. Had not been for OpaQue's multiple messages to me this forum would have been way much easier to moderate. Don't get me wrong, I am not defensive to any suggestions. How much of micro-managing do we suppose to do around here? Anyone from the outside throws remarks like "moderators should enforce harder" has never managed anything in the real world. Micro managing never works. The trick is to make an individual "want" to enforce and follow a set guideline--not by force and fear.And an intelligent person does not point out someone else's flaws--but guides in a way that is neither embarrassing nor insulting.truefusion, the above does not denote your suggestions in any way. I started this post to vent my side. I have not read your post with calm and composed mind. So give me few hours/days to digest the current situation and allow me to reply. Thanks TF, for your understanding.And you're absolutely right--more rule links equals more confusion. Setting a general guide line and allowing individuals to decipher in accordance to Xisto is the better way.PS please feel free to vent, tell off or go off at me, the forum or whatever--whoever. You know you are among supportive team. Please I need to hear what you all think. Am I being too conservative or just too stubborn to a change?


rvalkass

Introduction forum: user attention. If a user does not take the time to read and consider the posts in their or someone else's topic, then the posters posted in vain; however, that is not to say that there wasn't any enforcing of the rules. Another one would be that all users don't introduce themselves.

I've found that quite a few people do come back to their welcome topics, and a few even post to say thanks and that they will read the rules and readme. Of course, I doubt they all do, but it shows that this method can have an effect. Having said that, I think it's only the people who would have obeyed the rules anyway who will read them.

 

Shoutbox: time of informative shout being within the vision and time of the new user; that is, if the user is not present during the time that the informative shout was given, then the informative shout may be over powered by regular shouts before the user has any time to see it. Another one would be the user's care to click on the Xisto Readme link or to copy and paste any URLs that is directed to the Readme or rules into the address bar of their browser in order to navigate there.

I'm sure it used to be possible to view a sort of shoutbox history. If members could see past shouts then even if they missed the shout telling them about the rules, or giving them some help/advice, then they could easily find it again. That'd be useful not just for alerting members to the rules, but useful for all sorts of other situations.

 

Directions when attempting to sign up for a hosting account: the user's care to read the rules before filling out the hosting application and submitting it.

This relies on a member being here for hosting. Quite a few members are initially here just for the forums and not to get hosted. To those members, the rules are not so much of an issue - if you're not getting hosting then a warning or loss of credits means nothing to you - so they have no reason to find out what the rules are.

 

Denial of hosting application: there is really no significant drawback to this one. I see it to be common sense for one to see why their hosting application was denied. Also, some, after being denied hosting, leave and move on to other locations. If anything, it falls back on the user's care, mostly with those who apply with zero posts, as i would assume that some with zero posts just read the first sentence, contribute, and then hope to be accepted the next time around.

Like you say, no drawbacks. Anyone who applies for hosting is going to want to find out if they were successful or not, and will read the reasons why if they were denied.

 

Personal Messages: the only thing i can think of is the user not viewing their PMs for whatever reason.

I tend to track the PMs I send out about the rules, and most of them get read. Whether people act on them is another matter.

 

Notes: if the user does not go back into the topic and read the note, then the user is not informed.

True. Unless the note is given to the topic starter, or placed in a thread where people are likely to return for an answer/response then there is no reason why people would read a note. However, they do set an example for other people who spot them.

 

[...] following the rules is dependent on the person; that is, they have to care to some extent in order to follow the rules; and even then, they may only follow a few rules or just see a need to follow the rule(s) that they were caught violating.

I agree. There are members who want to behave well in the forums, keep to the rules, and pretty much look after the place. Then there are those that believe the Internet is pretty much lawless and rule-less. I think the problem stems from the fact that, at most forums, the quality of your post is fairly irrelevant. Xisto is special in that a strong emphasis is put on posts being of good quality, longer than a few words, and generally intelligent.

 

I can't imagine this long saga about grammar being made at any single other forum I have ever seen. Why? Because no emphasis is placed upon it in the first place, so people have no expectations. The 'standard' on the Internet is to generally write worse than you would normally! Certain new members expect this forum to be exactly the same, so behave that way.

 

Grammar Patrol Insignia

 

A suggestion by Misanthrope, that was inspired by Velma's statement, was to add another insignia specifying "Grammar Patrol." What is the purpose of insignias? Do you require an insignia in order to report posts? Do you require an insignia to fill in signature or banner requests? So what do insignias mean? They basically mean that the one bearing the insignia has been found working in that area more than others (or at least that's how i see it). Peronsally, i see that the "Spam Patrol" insignia statisfies the suggestion for a "Grammar Patrol" insignia. So, do we need a "Grammar Patrol" insignia?


I personally think a Grammar Patrol would have a very negative impact. People don't associate themselves with producing spam - they generally consider it to be businesses or people creating accounts purely to post spam posts - so normal members do not feel put upon by a Spam Patrol. However, a Grammar Patrol would affect pretty much every single member here, and I do not think there is a big enough problem to warrant this sort of action. Because it would personally affect them, I think many members would see it as rather unfair and going a bit over the top.

 

Educating the masses.

 

That is, taking the users through school again. Tikiprincess, being an English teacher herself, has started a tutorial on grammar, and has promised more. We could include the first tutorial in the Xisto Readme (assuming this tutorial will later link to the series).


The problem here is that it relies on members taking the time to read the rules and readme. Getting people to read the rules and readme is the first step, otherwise adding extra links and advice is futile.

 

Enforce the rules

 

The only way to enforce the rules more than it is already enforced is to do it to a bigger degree. This may include (but is not limited to) doing away with verbal warnings, place a link to the rules everywhere, motivating even more users to direct people to the rules, etc.


More links would just confuse people. Verbal warnings, I think, are useful. Many members only break a rule because they didn't know it existed. A quick prompt and they never do it again.

 

And Buffalo, I think I pretty much agree with you. I would have written something similar but it just didn't seem worth it

 

Two last quick thoughts (got an exam to go to )

Automatic PMs to new members pointing out the introductions forum, the rules, the readme...

Possibly review what is written in the rules. The sanctions listed should certainly be reviewed, or our actions changed, so that they more closely match.



truefusion

I agree with everyone here so far. And BuffaloHELP, i do not see any part of your post as something negative, nor anyones here. And, as you might have guessed, i in no way mean to degrade the current system.

 

However, they do set an example for other people who spot them.

Indeed, notes can provide a glimpse of the rules, if not link to the rules, for users, not just to the one it is directed to.

 

To those members, the rules are not so much of an issue - if you're not getting hosting then a warning or loss of credits means nothing to you - so they have no reason to find out what the rules are.

Mhmm. But many of these users tend to follow the general rules, and are most likely to listen to advice concerning the rules. But, of course, there is still bound to be some users that don't, but i have yet to deal with a user that does not seek hosting and was unreasonable (in the end).

 

The problem here is that it relies on members taking the time to read the rules and readme. Getting people to read the rules and readme is the first step, otherwise adding extra links and advice is futile.

Indeed, and this is the over-all problem with most, if not all, the methods. But i don't see the need to continue working with users that, after some attempts, are still not willing.

 

Two last quick thoughts (got an exam to go to )

Automatic PMs to new members pointing out the introductions forum, the rules, the readme...

Possibly review what is written in the rules. The sanctions listed should certainly be reviewed, or our actions changed, so that they more closely match.

The first one is a good suggestion if not already implemented; i had thought about this suggestion but forgot to mention it. It's been literally years since i last signed up, though, so i can't remember if it's already implemented, or if it was implemented some time afterwards.

 

The second one is good too, but since verbal warnings are optional and allow a more acceptable form of "discipline" toward users, being closer to the rules is dependant on the situation at that time, so sub-suggestions for this cannot be in general (or at least, i would think).

 

And good luck on your exam.

 

[hr=noshade] [/hr]

For some reason, all extra suggestions feel small to me when compared to what is already in place. Anyone else get this feeling?


rvalkass

The first one is a good suggestion if not already implemented; i had thought about this suggestion but forgot to mention it. It's been literally years since i last signed up, though, so i can't remember if it's already implemented, or if it was implemented some time afterwards.

I wondered if it had been implemented (I tend not to sign up too often ) when I first wrote it down. We'd need to work out the key information and key links that a new member would need. At the moment, I can think of the following which would be needed:

Link to the rules

Link to the TOS & AUP

Introduction to how credits work

Introduction on how hosting applications work

The second one is good too, but since verbal warnings are optional and allow a more acceptable form of "discipline" toward users, being closer to the rules is dependant on the situation at that time, so sub-suggestions for this cannot be in general (or at least, i would think).

I think this is mainly where Misanthrope's issue stemmed from. The rules state that a warning would be given for people not writing in decent English, and that wasn't being followed to the letter (how often have you issued a warning for bad English?). Like you say, every situation is different and we all use our own judgment, but this should be made clearer in the rules.

 

Also, I spotted a few things in the TOS that don't appear in the rules. For example, "no referral links" is one of the most commonly broken rules, yet doesn't actually appear on the 'rules' page. It is in fact hidden down as item 20 on the TOS&AUP. The whole readme and rules section needs a clean-up. It's a massive task, but it should really be done.

 

And good luck on your exam.

Thanks I think it went OK, but I won't find out until mid-August.

 

For some reason, all extra suggestions feel small to me when compared to what is already in place. Anyone else get this feeling?

Yes. I think we probably have some of the most comprehensive methods out there for preventing and dealing with rule breaking and other issues.

truefusion

At the moment, I can think of the following which would be needed:

Link to the rules

Link to the TOS & AUP

Introduction to how credits work

Introduction on how hosting applications work

I suppose only a minimal is required, as just reading through these things may lower the user's care for reading everything.

 

The whole readme and rules section needs a clean-up. It's a massive task, but it should really be done.

I think Dooga was given such a task and something about Annex, since he was the one who brought it up. I wonder how it has been going.

BuffaloHelp

Regarding automatic PM to newly registered member:I think it has been brought up but I didn't want to push the issue to OpaQue solely because it's another MOD to be installed in the forum. And while I was trying to convince OpaQue to consider this mod, I had a revelation if a member is asked to read forum TOS and rules, while doing so, a new member can learn to read other topics and learn to search/navigate through out our forum.But, if automatic PM can help the situation by bringing even closer attention to our Xisto Readme then it might be worth pushing this on OpaQue. I will keep you up to date.On other issues, honestly, you guys have too much patience to reply like you did Holy cow! I can't even be that diligent on replying line by line, point by point. I glanced at your discussions and I'm going to tackle one at a time--first being Automatic PM to new members.


Dooga

Hmm I'm sort of embarassed that I don't really understand what this is. Is this a list of ways to deal with different Shoutbox messages? Hah, I guess a fever doesn't make reading things fun


velma

Hmm I'm sort of embarassed that I don't really understand what this is. Is this a list of ways to deal with different Shoutbox messages? Hah, I guess a fever doesn't make reading things fun

Hi Dooga , I think what you are doing is hijacking the thread The staff is discussing a way to enforce the rule of "decent English in posts"

OpaQue is currently searching for an option to send Auto Pms to members, but the only issue about sending an Auto Pm to members the instant they sign up is that we cannot guarantee that they will read the pm.

I mean members who are here either to spam or get their hosting within hour or two might simply delete the Pm the instant they see rules in it.. We cannot deny that

According to me, the present system that is going on is absolutely perfect. This forum to some is a temple, for others a portfolio, to some it is a place where they can chill...

So if you made this place into a school, office where they saw nothing but rules, they might become less interested in the forums. We have to keep in mind that most of the members are children who are trying to either do something new or merely having fun.

I feel that if we started enforcing rules literally, kids are gonna feel that the staff is just a bunch of vultures who envy their happiness and we will be accused of not having a life or not knowing how to have fun .. Don't ask me where I got that line but this is the energy I got from my baby sister.

But she had a point, I would not like to reply to a topic only to be replied by some one saying that I have bad grammar and need to improve this or that.. I would take it in a positive light but it would be embarrassing for me to see some one pointing out my flaws openly.

Imagine a group of people breathing down your neck the instant you join the forum.. It would be uncomfortable and immature.. The Staff is an elite team that handle issues without being seen... In most cases though

If we started forcing members to speak really fluent English, No doubt members who have a good English will improve themselves but people who do not have good English might feel uncomfortable, shy or scared of posting..

To be honest, when I first joined the forum, I too was worried about my English being caught as bad but then when I realized that the staff was not that strict I could happily write my posts without any worry.

I agree that there are a lot of kids who do not respect the language and try to invent new words.. Should remind them that we are not Oxford

I had even mentioned Mermaid's posts once, how they were not helping the forum in anyway but she had posted them in the general section so she was practically following the rules

And If I must speak under oath *Puts one hand up and the other on the heart* I feel that the staff here is doing the very best DAMN job because we hardly see spammers anymore.. Other than the random members we have started getting really good members now..

Dear God!! I am so sorry for hi jacking the thread and exploding it but I was quiet for a very long time and was honestly itching to say this....

Dooga

Ah I see. I definitely agree about the bad grammar and spelling on forums.... those are terrible.However, it is impossible to avoid it, unless you're talking about a highly intelligent academic forum (and even so there exists people who type poorly) and geek sites like digg.comSome people don't find the point in typing properly, even though it really shows how they don't pay attention to respect other people that are reading their posts.Hehe sorry for hijacking



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