Is God Is One

[udayvedanthuman 0]

This question always arises in my mind, whenever I am thinking about God. That what a beautiful world he has created...so beautiful, complicated, infinite. We can’t see the start and end point of his creation.One more doubt always arises in me whenever I used to read spiritual books. In every spiritual book it has been mentioned that God is one. I question myself that who the one is...what is his form is...how does he look like...?That world is divided into so many countries and different religions came into existence. Whatever the enlightened ones that we have experienced...are they are the only ones or are we having someone more supreme. The one who has the control of the whole Universe. I don't have any answer for this.All around people are killing each other in the name of religions. But we are forgetting that we are one, created by someone beyond our knowledge and he is one. Then why are we ignorant of these facts. If he is the one, then why are we killing each other...why can’t we spread peace and harmony message in the society. Why we are not bothered about these things?I don’t know how long this hurdle will go on in this world and when we can see a peaceful world, where the presence of our loved and dear ones will always be on a safe side.

Edited May 5, 2012 by moderator (see edit history)

[Bikerman 2]

Not only can you not see the start and end of 'creation', you can't imagine how big that creation is. We can use metrics, and I can tell you that the observable universe is about 100 billion light years in diameter, but actually getting a mental handle on that is, I think, beyond us. Think of the smallest, most insignificant 'spec' that you can, and you are still nowhere near it.Does it not strike you as odd that a creator so concerned with humanity would create a universe in which humanity is an infinitessimal mote? Maybe he thought we might get bored?

Edited May 5, 2012 by moderator (see edit history)

[udayvedanthuman 0]

I agree with you that actually getting a mental handle about creation is beyond us. Who is the creator, that is also a puzzle? What we read in books about creation, our knowledge is restricted to that only...we are not able to see the real picture. Until and unless you find an enlighten one and sit with him to get a clear picture.Then only we can understand clearly what is creation or who is the creator. There is so many religions all over and every religion teaches you one thing that God is one. But the question is who is the one. Hope you agree with me.

[Bikerman 2]

Sensible people don't have books on creation. Those are for people who can't or won't read proper science books.There is no creator and therefore no such mystery. It goes like this:nothing ->quantum fluctuation -> spacetime, energy matter and gravity (which adds up to nothing since gravity cancels with energy and matter).So, we start with nothing and we still are nothing - just arranged interestingly. No need nor room for a deity - that would overly complicate a wonderfully elegant system which works fine without some sky-fairy twiddling nobs.

[udayvedanthuman 0]

Thanks for the reply. Few things I want to ask you...if science is the source of our existence. From where science came...there was an era where no one was aware of how to write and read. The moment we learned reading and writing, then only this things got created. There was life before we became literates. Only after becoming literates, we developed a subject called science, which is trying to define creation. Even the person who wrote everything about science is a human being. My question is, that do you think human being has succeeded in defining creation in an appropriate way. The age of science is very less compared to the age of world or the stage when the first human being came to this world. Even it's a mystery that who is the first guy, who came to the world. We read so many fantasy stories regarding it. Science has discovered only nine planets. But these nine planets cover only 1% of the whole Universe. If science has taken so many years to discover only 1% of the Universe. Then how much time it will take to discover the complete Universe. Why one person is a king and another person is seen begging on the road? How does science define all those things? Global warming, what is science doing about it and who is responsible about it. Does science has any prove that whatever it is saying is true. The things created by human brains is responsible for our downfall. Many people are dying by plane crash, bus accidents, train accidents, suicide attempts hanging on to the fan or pouring some inflammable substance on them and getting burnt, gas catching fire. Even in companies, many incidents happen and people die. One nuclear bomb was dropped at Japan and they have suffered for 25 years. Our creation has been responsible for our downfall. World war 1 and world war 2 and many wars continued after that...the twin tower incident. Everywhere the common thing you see is suffering and negativity. We say modernization, what it really is...we say we are civilized people? Are we really civilized? Around you, you are surrounded by maximum wrong people. How will science define that...? In the present world, money rules the world, not human beings. How will science define that...? You will find 80% people in the world are spiritual and religious. How will science define that...? Science assumes that it has defined everything in this world. I don't think so...it is lagging far behind and there are many questions which need to be answered. Sorry if somewhere I went wrong. This where some questions, regarding which I wanted an answer.

Edited May 5, 2012 by moderator (see edit history)

[Bikerman 2]

Science is not the source of anything. Science is a method. it is a way of examining the universe and working out how it works.
The scientific model of creation is far from perfect and there is much we don't yet understand. it is, however, vastly superior to anything that religion has come up with - I mean, talking serpents? A universe in 6 days? Sheer nonsense.
Also, beware ad-populum. By that I mean - the fact that 80% of the world population is religious (if indeed that is true) means precisely nothing.
A couple of thousand years ago nearly the entire population of the world believed that it was flat. Does that tell you ANYTHING about the real shape of the world?

Global warming, what is science doing about it and who is responsible about it. Does science has any prove that whatever it is saying is true. The things created by human brains is responsible for our downfall.

That is so wrong I hardly know where to start. Yes, science is interested in truth - that is why scientific statements must be testable. Science is the reason that you are alive. Without it your ancestors would have starved to death before you were born. Science is the reason you don't die when you get ill. Science has increased your life expectancy from 20 to 60-80 (depending on where you live) - in other words you can thank science for the fact that you will live many times longer than your ancestors, are many times healthier, and not die from trivial infection.I find your attitude a little ungrateful.If the world was left to religion then none of this would have happened, People had to fight religion - with many of them dying - in order to get to where we are now. Religion has tried to stop science at every stage, from Galileo onwards. It is a parasitic belief system that requires ignorance in order to survive.

I think Christopher Hitchens (rest in peace) put it very well when he said that religion was our first attempt to understand the world. We have now developed science which is a much better tool for doing that, which means that religion is really obsolete. Some people try to say that 'science tells us how and religion tells us why'. But that is not correct. Science tells us how, for sure. Increasingly, however, it also tells us why. The relatively new field of neuroscience is making big strides into our understanding of the brain and how 'mind' works. We are even beginning to understand why people have religious beliefs. Ultimately I believe that most, if not all, of the universe will be explained by science. Some people think that is bad, that it removes some 'beauty' from the world if we understand it. I think they are mad. I think Richard Feynman said it best:

http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/
Edited May 5, 2012 by Bikerman (see edit history)

[udayvedanthuman 0]

Science is the method, I accept it. It is examining the universe, fine that is good. Not every people in this world believe in science. Every one as there own methods of defining creation. Things are not restricted to know the size of a planet only. We have spent years to know only the shape of earth and to discover nine planets. While the nine planets covers only small part of Universe. Science is taking too much time to define Universe. One part of religion speaks that Universe is created in 6 days. But if you read all the other religious books, then you might get a different picture of creation. What is your opinion about Enlightenment? About births, re-birth, death, suffering, negativity, positivity, light, dark, day, night, sunlight, breathing, heart-beat,soul. This are the things we are connected to...Science believes in truth, I accept it. Doctors has there own importance in the society. They has there own weightage. About my ancestors...they were all spiritual people. They had a sound mind and fit body. I have seen my grandparents, my parents. They lived a good life and it is rare that I have seen them taking medicines or going to doctor. They live a good healthy life. Even that things applies to my brothers also. About me I would like to share somethings with you...the last time I went to a doctor was nine years back...that was in 2003. Still now I have never been to a doctor or taken a medicine. For me my gift is my thought process and spirituality. I work everyday to be in that spiritual world. Spirituality is a infinite world, where you can find peace, love, joy and happiness. There is no other way of finding peace, love, joy and happiness. The most important thing is to understand what spirituality is... Methods created by human beings never helps, that is my opinion. Only things which are natural, are more effective and has greater impact then anything else in this world. Can you just tell me the age of science? Human beings were there before science was born. They never died the moment they were born because they were ill. There is always a solution for every problem in creation. That is the beauty of nature. It always helps you. In the past life expectancy was very good. I have seen my grandparents living upto the age of 90 years. It doesn't mean that I found them sick every moment, they were fit and lead a healthy life. Now life expectancy is falling down. Living at the age of 60 years is a big thing.If I am wrong somewhere I am sorry for that...i don't mean to define any thing in a wrong way or prove any point. I am just trying to express my things in an appropriate way. I am not talking about different religions. Even I don't believe in this religions. But at one point, you realize something about life, i.e. living, nature, breathing, heart beat, thought process and your presence as a human being. Everyone has there own method of defining things. But at the end we must ask ourselves, that are we going in the right direction or missing our direction.

[Ananya 0]

[As said by Bikerman] If the world was left to religion then none of this would have happened

Science is just the law of nature. This nature has been created by the creator in this form that's why we see things in that form.We see things going down by the pull of gravitation and we call it as theory of gravitation. You said science has increased our life expectancy.Well it has indeed done so.No question of ignoring that.But that is a gradual progression of our own ignorance to our own development of mind.When our ancestors were nomads they used to know nothing. But then gradually they observed the nature around them carefully and stated to make things work accordingly.Now I cite you 1 simple instance the computer we use everyday. At the core of it are the silicon chips that are used there. Silicon is an element gifted to us by our mother nature. If you look at the structure of silicon,it has got no free outer electrons to move between atoms so it isn't a good conductor of electricity.But by changing its nature a little bit through doping i.e by adding a little bit of foreign atoms we make p-type or n-type semiconductors and we successfully change its electrical conductivity property.So you see we are transforming the very things we got from nature.We aren't creating it from scratch.Science is just transforming the nature gifted elements by utilization the very law of nature itself. Just because we have understood so many facts of nature doesn't really make us stood above religion and God.

Religion has tried to stop science at every stage, from Galileo onwards. It is a parasitic belief system that requires ignorance in order to survive.

Pardon me Sir but religion hasn't stopped the progress of science.Religion just makes us follow the path of righteousness. Religion isn't what some ignorant people belonging to a church or temple has preached just to fulfill their own selfish interest of making people believe in the nonsense statements put up by them so as to maintain their own autonomy. Like Brahmins in our Hindu society used to say that foreign travel over the sea is a serious kind of sin.Because they never wanted people of our country to travel overseas and witness the progress happening all around the world like The industrial revolution in 17th century after invention of steam engine.They are people who don't like to see truth because truth shakes the very position they have made in the society.

[Bikerman 2]

Not every people in this world believe in science. Every one as there own methods of defining creation.

Then they are simply wrong, it is that simple. Reality is not democratic - reality doesn't change just because you think it does or want it to. What we measure is real. The predictions and achievements of science are REAL. If someone believes that science is wrong then let them show THEIR model and I am willing to bet a large amount that it will be demolished.People somehow seem to think that their opinion is important in science, or with regard to what is true. It is a phenomenon sometimes called Post Modernism or relativism and it is advanced by moral idiots and scientific ignoramuses.
Science is not 'just the laws of nature'. Science is the philosophy, the method we use to find out and investigate those laws. The scientific method is what science is.

But that is a gradual progression of our own ignorance to our own development of mind.

No it isn't. Our brains have been this big for tens or hundreds of thousands of years. We barely developed at all for a huge part of that. Then the Greeks took civilisation to a height and the Church knocked it down and kept it down for 1500 years so that by the 16th century we knew less about the universe than the Greeks did in 400 BCE,What do we call the period when the church had absolute rule in Europe - say 1st Century CE to 1500CE? We call it the DARK AGES. What do we call the arrival of critical thinking and the resulting exposion in the arts, philosophy, literature? We call it the Enlightenment. The more religion retreats the better. The most ethical countries in the world are the most secular - the Nordic countries for example. The most morally bankrupt places on earth are highly religious. Just about any islamic state can be used as an example. Living standards have risen with the march of science and the retreat of primitive superstitions. Look around the world. Who is killing and why? Religion everywhere you look. What is modern 'civilised' Western religion doing? Telling Africans that condoms will give them AIDS and that it is better to die of AIDS than burn in hell for using a condom. Meanwhile many of it's clergy raped young boys in their care and their bishops were busy telling people not to tell the parents or the police on pain of excommunication, with the current Pope - Ratzinger - busy writing to Bishops telling them that they could not talk to anyone except the Vatican about the matter, again on pain of excommunication. Yet people kiss his ring and cry-out his name in reverence instead of putting him in a cell where he belongs.

Rghteousness? Don't make me laugh.
.
Show me a moderate Muslim and I'll show you someone who was screaming for people to be murdered for writing a book or drawing a cartoon. Even that most genteel and civilised religion - so laid back it can scarecely be called a religion, (The Church of England) with priests who are openly atheists, what are they doing? Debating if their bigotry towards homosexuals will continue for a few more decades. Deciding whether it is finally time to end the inherent sexism of the institution. Proposing that britian might need to consider Sharia Law to appease Muslims. In the most technologically advanced society in the world over half the population have been persuaded that the world is a few thousand years old, that evolution is 'just a theory', that the world will end in the next 30 years or so, that they will rise into the sky and watch the destruction of all the non-Christians. They BELIEVE THIS CRAP. That is what religion does, it turns what should be modern intelligent people into bronze-age morons.

Righteousness? I'm tempted to think you must be having a joke.
A pox on all religion.

Progress has come with science and because of science. That is the reason pure and simple.

Silicon is an element gifted to us by our mother nature. If you look at the structure of silicon,it has got no free outer electrons to move between atoms so it isn't a good conductor of electricity.But by changing its nature a little bit through doping i.e by adding a little bit of foreign atoms we make p-type or n-type semiconductors and we successfully change its electrical conductivity property.So you see we are transforming the very things we got from nature.

I know a fair amount about doping thanks and it requires no God. You keep asserting that Nature created this and nature created that as if Nature is a 'thing'. Nature is just the laws of physics. We have silicon because it is one of the elements that form in stars under high compression and temperature. No God required. Silicon has it's particular conduction propeties because of the electron structure which is understood and predicted by quantum mechanics - no God required. Doping creates and fills charge 'holes' and causes quantum tunnelling - no God required.We have stars because our universe eventually cooled from an initial state and matter condensed. No God required. The only role for any possible creator would be in starting the big bang. Everything else is better explained by science without introducing sky-fairies. And now we have scientific models for the 'start' which make even the role of Big bang 'starter' un-necessary - no God required.
As science has moved on, the space for God has shrunk until he now clings on by a divine fingernail. it is time, for the sanity of the species, that he let go.

Pardon me Sir but religion hasn't stopped the progress of science.Religion just makes us follow the path of righteousness.

If you really believe that then you really need to read some history. You have heard of Galileo I take it? Would you like a list of early thinkers that the church murdered, the books they banned? the discussions they ruled to be out of order or heretical? Edited May 7, 2012 by Bikerman (see edit history)

[udayvedanthuman 0]

You believe that there is no God, fine. You again say that Nature is the law of physics, okay? We don't have the right to say anything about a community or a religion. The truth is that human being came first and then religion. Lets talk about human being first. The world is created and later on it was divided into many countries and religions. Science says that the Universe was created from a big bang. Now the question is where does this bang happened. What is the source behind that...Big bang is just an assumption and we don't have a constructive prove about it. The start of life on Earth. How will science define this things? Science is trying to define creation or evolution with his own methods. But it really don't have an answer for so many questions. Greeks were intelligent and they were genius. It is hard to say if Greeks might have given complete freedom, they would have explored the complete Universe. Science has its own limitations, people believe in it as a methodology to define creation. People from science field are struggling to define creation, the answer they have is only for a small part of Universe and not for the entire creation. I don't believe that science is responsible to increase our life expectancy. My ancestors never survived because of science. They survived because of spirituality and thought process and India is purely a spiritual country. Hinduism is the oldest religion in the world and Lord Mahavira, followed by Lord Gautam Buddha were the first ones to reach enlightenment. Buddhism is the third popular religion, where we see maximum followers after Christianity and Muslim. Sanskrit is the mother of all languages. There are many things I can show you with prove, but showing something from the internet doesn't make any sense. It will be an issue, that is why I am not opening much... If you don't believe in Lord Jesus Christ, then fine. Lord Jesus Christ went beyond pain and suffering and reached to the stage of enlightenment. It is very important to understand what enlightenment really is...it is a not a word that can be used anywhere. The power of thoughts, inner soul...this is an infinite world. Your ignorance towards spirituality and your respect towards science is fine. Spirituality rules the world and it will rule the world but before that it is important to understand what spirituality is...As long as we are inclined towards spirituality, it is fine. Everything is going to run very smoothly in this world. Otherwise the moment we stop being spiritual, the world is going to end at that point and there is no methodology that is going to save our planet.

[Bikerman 2]

We don't have the right to say anything about a community or a religion.

Err , yes I damn well do - we call it freedom of expression. I know you might not like it, but it doesn't matter whether you do or do not.Theists like to pull this trick all the time. 'Oh you mustn't criticise people's sincere beliefs' they say. Well that is rubbish. Nobody says that I must not criticise people's political choices so what is special about their religious choice? Nothing, that's what. I can't blame you for trying - this tactic worked for centuries after all. It doesn't work now, though, so get used to it.
When theists make ridiculous claims then people like me will stand up and call them on it. That is how it now is and I think it is about time.

Science says that the Universe was created from a big bang. Now the question is where does this bang happened. What is the source behind that...

Quantum fluctuation - they happen all the time and don't need a cause.But the truth is that you don't really understand the question so you won't understand the answer. What makes you feel that you are qualified to make statements about physics? Are you a physicist? Or is this stuff you just read about?
Would you go into an operating theatre and tell the surgeon how to make the incisions and what to do afterwards? Probably not, eh? Because you would KNOW that you don't have sufficient knowledge to say anything useful on the matter. When it comes to equally complex matters of physics, however, you suddenly feel qualified to give an opinion and apparently you expect it to be taken seriously....I wonder why?

Big bang is just an assumption and we don't have a constructive prove about it. The start of life on Earth. How will science define this things? Science is trying to define creation or evolution with his own methods. But it really don't have an answer for so many questions.

No, you are confusing YOU for WE. YOU don't understand the science therefore YOU don't understand the answers. You do not speak for me and you do not speak for science in general. The evidence for the BB is overwhelming but YOU don't understand it.At least try to be honest.

There are many things I can show you with prove

I simply do not believe you and until you do what you say you can do then I will continue to believe you are simply lying or deluded. Evidence my friend, evidence.

I don't believe that science is responsible to increase our life expectancy. My ancestors never survived because of science.

Ahh, at last a statement we can TEST.You say your ancestors survived - I presume you mean they survived to an age similar to that we enjoy today?
I say you are lying, but it is easy to check.
Edited May 9, 2012 by Bikerman (see edit history)

[Bikerman 2]

Since you are from Mumbai I checked the stats for india,

2 generations ago (1960) your 'ancestors' lived 42.3 years on average. Today it is 66.5 on average. That is ENTIRELY due to science - it cannot be due to religion unless you think religion has suddenly gone shooting up. So in just half a century your life expectancy has increased by more than 50%....Point proven, case closed.

Source - http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/

I wonder now if you will have the honesty to admit you are wrong? My experience of theists tells me that you won't and will simply look for some other way to justify your nonsense. It is ironic that theists who run around telling people to follow commandments that include 'Do not bear false witness' seem to think it somehow doesn't apply to them, and that they can come out with any old nonsense, as long as they are defending their irrational belief system. You should be ashamed but I'll bet you are not.

Actually, I should thank you. You have provided an almost perfect example of the way theists spread their nonsense. You start by making lots of claims that cannot be checked, and accusing critics of being 'ignorant' about spirituality, Then occasionally you slip-up and make a statement that CAN be checked. And as soon as it IS checked it turns out that it is a lie. This is how, for example, Christianity has functioned in the west for 2000 years. As soon as it is possible to CHECK their pronouncements - whether it is the size of the earth, the position, the shape, the movement - you name it - then we find out that the religious 'truth' is garbage. And do these Christians apologise for lying to everyone? Do they hell, they simply claim that they knew all along, and go on to invent some other nonsense.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Bikerman (see edit history)

[udayvedanthuman 0]

Freedom of expression does not mean that you start abusing people. Freedom of expression means that you have to say your things in an appropriate way. Criticism must be a healthy one. There must not be any kind of hatred or personal opinion in it. This wrong criticism is spoiling the environment all over the world and everywhere we see negativity and suffering and we gave it a dignified name called freedom of expression.

 

Religion and spirituality are two different things. First it must be understood...

 

If theist makes many claims, then at the same time Atheist also doing the same thing. The argument between theist and Atheist is going on for many years. I am not here to say that my I am Atheist, so everyone must be Atheist. I am just saying my things.

 

"Quantum fluctuations may have been very important in the origin of the structure of the universe:"

 

If you read this line, then you can make out that they are not sure that Quantum fluctuations might be responsible for the origin of the universe. How sad? They say Quantum fluctuations and they are still not sure about it.

 

I am a physics graduate from Mumbai University. I don't have to be physicist to express my things.

 

I am not a doctor and if I have to go to an operation theatre, then first I will become a doctor and then only I will enter the operation theatre.

 

You checked the stats from India, just wanted to know that who the designer of the tool is...

 

First thing I would like to ask you that how much you know about India. If you say my ancestors, then it goes 100 years back...they all lived up to 90 years. For evidence I have to take you to my place or put a source for it. Your source doesn't say anything about my ancestors living 100 years back.

 

People like you cover 10% of population all over the world. 80% people believe in spirituality, to prove your point, you are saying that 80% of the people are wrong. So you have a strong hatred for Christianity.

 

Again I am sorry...I don't have any evidence for it.

 

Apart from Mumbai, what are the places you are aware of in India?

 

Evidence I will give you, but let the conversation continue.

 

Later on it will be proved about me being honest or liar and how much truth I am speaking. Have patience...

[Bikerman 2]

Freedom of expression does not mean that you start abusing people. Freedom of expression means that you have to say your things in an appropriate way.

Yes it does mean you can abuse people....that's the whole point really. Once you start imposing limits - like it must be 'appropriate' - then you have de-facto imposed a censor. Freedom of expression means the freedom to offend and if you really don't see that then I don't think you've understood the basic concept.

I am a physics graduate from Mumbai University. I don't have to be physicist to express my things.

Sorry but I'm not prepared to simply accept someone's word that they are a physics grad, expecially when they don't understand basic qm.

First thing I would like to ask you that how much you know about India. If you say my ancestors, then it goes 100 years back...they all lived up to 90 years. For evidence I have to take you to my place or put a source for it. Your source doesn't say anything about my ancestors living 100 years back.

And I think that clinches it. Any real physics graduate who made such an idiotic statement would be locked-up by the physics police. If you really don't understand the difference between anecdote and statistical data then Mumbai university sucks. You said that science is not responsible for people living longer. I demonstrated conclusively that it is. Of course you can cherry pick individual cases that have lived long lives just like I can show you many smokers who lived to 100 - it doesn't mean that smoking is good for you and it doesn't disprove the FACT that science has increased the life expectancy in India by over 50% in as many years.

People like you cover 10% of population all over the world. 80% people believe in spirituality, to prove your point, you are saying that 80% of the people are wrong. So you have a strong hatred for Christianity.

Ahh so now we move on to the next fallacy - the ad-populum fallacy. Good example of it here - most people believe x therefore x must be true. It takes a certain sort of idiot to believe this is valid. Anyone with an ounce of sense would test the rule by seeing how it works over history. Let's see....let's try it with:The majority of people think that electrons look like ping-pong balls, only smaller. Therefore - THEY ARE! or
The majority of people in 1200CE thought the sun moved around the earth - so IT DID!
Physics graduate? I really don't think so.
I don't have a 'strong hatred' for Christianity. I regard it as a wrong-headed idea which is dangerous and needs to be challenged. I don't particularly want to live in a society where irrationality is praised, and I certainly don't want people with such irrational beliefs in positions of power. Being someone committed to democracy that means that I speak out against it, in the fine traditions of democracy.

I wonder now if you will have the honesty to admit you are wrong? My experience of theists tells me that you won't and will simply look for some other way to justify your nonsense.

Right again it seems..... Edited May 10, 2012 by Bikerman (see edit history)

[Bikerman 2]

PS -

I don't have to be physicist to express my things.

You need to know basic physics if you want to talk intelligently about the Big bang. Of course you can 'express your things' without such basic knowledge, but I can't imagine why you would expect anyone to take such 'things' seriously since they are self-admittedly based on ignorance.
And just in case you can't see why your 'ad populum' argument is idiotic you might like to consider that about 2 billion people believe that jesus was God. A lot more people believe he wasn't. Using your own dodgy logic that 'proves' that Jesus was not god.
Edited May 10, 2012 by Bikerman (see edit history)