Are Some Christians Pushing For A New Crusade? Please, only logical discussion, no ranting

[KainRacure 0]

I study Medieval history because it amuses me and I have always been interested in it. In the years past the 9/11 attack on the twin towers I have noticed a very scary trend in the USA. I have seen this trend mirrored in history before, namely in The Crusades.

For those of you who do not know about The Crusades I will give you a short history lesson.

In the late 11th century Byzantine Emperor Alexius I called for help to defend his Christian empire (which included Jerusalem, the Christian holy city) against invading Turks (who were Muslims). The Pope of that time, Pope Urban II, called for all Christians to rally and help reclaim the holy land from the Muslims, who were considered evil and godless. In return he told them all that if they died in the service of God their sins would be expunged and in short they would be honored and go straight to Heaven.

That was the start of the First Crusade. (There were many others and it ended up with petty Crusades for pure political reasons)

During the Crusades, Christians did many things in the name of God that you would not think should be done in the name of anything. They would besiege whole cities and force people to convert, if they refused the Crusaders would attack the city killing, torturing and raping all who were not Christian. There are accounts of streets literally running with blood. All this, remember, is in the name of God and to spread Christianity to the godless.

Now, how do you ask is all of this relevant to today?

Well ever since 9/11 our Christian ruler George W Bush has pushed for us to go over to other countries and "liberate" them, or to find WMDs. (I still wonder how that just kinda dropped out of the whole equation) He has used his Christian background to publicly promote it as doing the right thing.

Also MANY Christian groups are springing up with ideas to force others to believe in their way of thinking (like creationism in schools) and they are supporting this war in which we are targeting mainly Muslim nations.

Also there is some form of mis information that makes people believe that Muslims are all terrorists and wish to kill all Americans (a mainly Christian Country). So much so that there are actually children's books that have been published that teach them not to fear everyone in a turban or robes.

The way that SOME Christians are pushing for war looks to be headed down the same road that the Crusades went down.

Then we look at things like the Abu Ghraib prison where American soldiers tortured prisoners and the recent issues of "waterboarding" prisoners of war. (Waterboarding is a practice where a person is strapped to a board and a cloth is placed over his face and water is poured over the cloth. This makes a person feel like he is drowning which is a VERY scary feeling.)

This quote is from Ameen Saeed Al-Sheik, a prisoner in Abu Ghraib

'Do you pray to Allah?' one asked. I said yes. They said, '[Expletive] you. And [expletive] him.' One of them said, 'You are not getting out of here health[y], you are getting out of here handicapped. And he said to me, 'Are you married?' I said, 'Yes.' They said, 'If your wife saw you like this, she will be disappointed.' One of them said, 'But if I saw her now she would not be disappointed now because I would rape her.' " [...] "They ordered me to thank Jesus that I'm alive." [...] "I said to him, 'I believe in Allah.' So he said, 'But I believe in torture and I will torture you.'

Torture and ordering him to convert to Christianity...

So what happens when we are called to kill in the name of God? Is this what God wants? Is this what America wants? Is it right for us to go into another country and attack them, torture them and force our religion on them as was done in the Crusades? Is this America's Crusade?

[truefusion 3]

I'd say this is another one of those "blame the religion, for the followers are doing [this]" topics but no where in your post do you blame any religion.

Torture and ordering him to convert to Christianity...

The way you spoke before and after this implied that you were limiting things to the USA. And although they said they were going to torture the poor fellow, they didn't command him to convert; they commanded him to thank Jesus, but that's not commanding him to convert.

[1]So what happens when we are called to kill in the name of God? [2]Is this what God wants? [3]Is this what America wants? [4]Is it right for us to go into another country and attack them, torture them and force our religion on them as was done in the Crusades? [5]Is this America's Crusade?

[1]If that ever happens, we'll find out, won't we?
[2]Why, all answers to this question are relative. You really can't attribute anything to God that He Himself hasn't.

[3]It may depend on how the media plays a role in the ordeal, if America were to be called to kill in the name of God, that is. But we'll see if it happens.

[4]Assuming this is asked in general: No for everything after "attack them"—so long as this country we would be attacking is doing what the Nazi's did, and similar things.

Outside the assumption that this is asked in general: You're assuming such would be the case; that is, you're, in my opinion, exagerrating.

[5]What? What's going on now? Why, from what i've seen and heard, America has never dove into a war that didn't have a self-centered reason.

[Saint_Michael 3]

Well the thing with the thing with the Crusades that it was all politcal, well at least the 3rd one was political since the first two was mostly religious and political. Of course if you were a Da Vinci Code fan then you could say their was a conspiracy theory behind the crusades as well, but either way to make that connection with today's events is somewhat bias. Due to the fact there is more to the whole 9/11 then just religion, and trust me no political leader in the US will ever drop that phrase when going to war because every religious sect will riot since religion and government are supposed to be separate states of leadership/followers.Heck if we knew what god wanted we wouldn't be going to church because that would destroy the foundation men based on what they perceived what "God" wants. As for America wants it well that is difficult to ask since most American's are kept out of the loop, and are being withheld secrets for our best interest and what not. Although in this case America wants out of Iraq, but the American government wants to stay there for 100 more years, give or take another Bush in 2009.If we are attacking for religious purposes then the answer would be no because them we will be branded two face liars, surprised that no government drop that out doors yet. Of course all wars have religious implications with them and thats including political, and money making implications as well.Nah its more like Bush's Crusade since he is the beginning, middle, and although he will be leaving the White House it will never end until we leave the Middle east and finally give up on oil.

[tobias7 0]

I'm a Christian and I'd like to comment on what you said. First, I'll say that you have everything backwards. There is another version of the Crusades happening, but it's not SOME Christians, it's SOME Muslims. These Muslims are called jihadists, and if you wikipedia it, you'll find that it basically is another version of the Crusades. We are attacking not out of some desire to Christianize the Middle East, but out of a desire to defend ourselves against this new version of the Crusades. Here are some points about your article.1. The Crusades: If you examine them, there is a striking parallel between them and the Jews of Jesus' day: both were looking to earthly politics for answers. Many Jews denied Jesus as Christ because they were expecting the Messiah to be a great political leader, and not someone to save them from their sins. Likewise, the Crusades seem to be about reclaiming God's land on earth through political means. Both seem to be good ideas of what a Christian should not do. There have been times when God 'crusaded' for the Jews and the focus was on political battles, such as in the books of Joshua and Judges. During these times, the emphasis was on the Jews' survival, and God Himself made known that that was His plan through many miracles, even speaking directly to many of Israel's leaders.2. Creationism in schools: I am sick and tired of having evolution crammed down my throat. It is a controversial hypothesis that has NOT been proven, and it is anathema to me that many schools teach it as a scientific fact, as definitive as gravity. That being said, I admit it is the leading scientific theory, and I have no problems with it being taught in schools. I just wish that science books would mention the hypothesis of Creationism, even just as a side note, that some people do not believe humans evolved from microorganisms, and they are not idiots merely because they go against the scientific norm. I would even be happy if schools would simply teach that there are some big unresolved issues with evolution and that it has not been proven, whereas most science books instead have a line that says something to the extent of: Evolution is a changing theory, and it is not definitive, but the basic principles have been scientifically proven and it's just the details that we are not sure about. This is a lie!3. The war in Iraq: I'm guessing you've forgotten about a time when the United States was attacked, with no provoking. We were hit hard, our economy was sent reeling, and many people of our nation were killed, while they were doing nothing more than working at their jobs. Then, a little later, we hear that more of our enemies have possession of nuclear weapons. Immediately we start fearing that another attack, 1000 times worse than 9-11, could happen, an attack that could turn our country, the most powerful country in the world, into a third world county overnight. What do we do? Anything we can to survive. I'm not saying it was the right thing to do, I'm not even saying Iraq was related in any way to 9-11. What I am saying is that we started the war because we were scared for our lives, not because Bush wanted oil, money, and power, and not because he wanted to Christianize the region.4. The idea of Christians against Muslims: The reason this war is being fought mainly against Muslims is not SOME Christians, but SOME Muslims. Some Muslims interpret the Koran to mean that anyone who is not a Muslim and who will not convert should be killed. This is one of the main reasons we we've been under fire from Islamic countries such as Iran and Iraq, and terrorists such as those who did 9-11. These 'jihadists' have their own versions of the Crusades going, and this Christian nation is only attacking out of defense.

[KainRacure 0]

Bush HAS said he is doing gods work. He HAS claimed that god is on our side and that we are doing the right thing thus muddling the line between religion and politics (just as it was during the crusades)Also I know that SOME Muslims (not the Muslims as in the whole group) have declared a holy war on the USA not on Christians.Umm what do Jews have anything to do with this? However I am pointing out that some Christians are looking at this war (and Bush's leadership) as a form of holy retribution for acts that were done to us.And I admit that I haven't been in school in a long time but when I was in high school I know that my biology teacher taught us that evolution was a theory and not fact but that PARTS of it were proven to be right (like the passing of genes to the next generation) He also taught us that a theory is NOT fact but merely an educated guess that has been tested over and over and holds weight. But you have to remember that creationism, the big bang theory and every other theory out there are just that. Also it is actually CALLED the Theory of Evolution (not the fact or just plain evolution (at least not in science books, which rarely shorten it to evolution without first pointing out that it is called the theory of evolution)) and any teacher who skips over that fact is not doing his job correctly. I did not forget 9/11 HOWEVER I do point out that the USA's response was totally wrong. Yes citizens WERE afraid of the idea of WMDs however our government mislead us and in staid of properly protecting us and doing the nation as a whole some good and going after the one who actually did this they either intentionally or ignorantly used the air of fear and confusion to attack a wholly different target that had nothing to do with the attack on us. It is a kin to you getting robbed at gunpoint and seeing the guy run off to a house 3 doors down and you go and have your neighbor arrested because he is a jerk and has a gun and you are afraid he will shoot you with it. (only it turns out your neighbor tho being a jerk and who probably deserves to be punished for something has no gun and never was going to hurt you personally)The response to 9/11 was riddled with statements like god is with us and the whole air of George W Bush being a godly man who is out to save the christian country from the Muslim terrorists.I agree that some Muslims are doing the EXACT SAME THING. But there are Christians who I have personally seen pushing for war on religious grounds.

[Joshua 0]

I study Medieval history because it amuses me and I have always been interested in it. In the years past the 9/11 attack on the twin towers I have noticed a very scary trend in the USA. I have seen this trend mirrored in history before, namely in The Crusades.
For those of you who do not know about The Crusades I will give you a short history lesson.

In the late 11th century Byzantine Emperor Alexius I called for help to defend his Christian empire (which included Jerusalem, the Christian holy city) against invading Turks (who were Muslims). The Pope of that time, Pope Urban II, called for all Christians to rally and help reclaim the holy land from the Muslims, who were considered evil and godless. In return he told them all that if they died in the service of God their sins would be expunged and in short they would be honored and go straight to Heaven.

That was the start of the First Crusade. (There were many others and it ended up with petty Crusades for pure political reasons)

During the Crusades, Christians did many things in the name of God that you would not think should be done in the name of anything. They would besiege whole cities and force people to convert, if they refused the Crusaders would attack the city killing, torturing and raping all who were not Christian. There are accounts of streets literally running with blood. All this, remember, is in the name of God and to spread Christianity to the godless.

Now, how do you ask is all of this relevant to today?

Well ever since 9/11 our Christian ruler George W Bush has pushed for us to go over to other countries and "liberate" them, or to find WMDs. (I still wonder how that just kinda dropped out of the whole equation) He has used his Christian background to publicly promote it as doing the right thing.

Also MANY Christian groups are springing up with ideas to force others to believe in their way of thinking (like creationism in schools) and they are supporting this war in which we are targeting mainly Muslim nations.

Also there is some form of mis information that makes people believe that Muslims are all terrorists and wish to kill all Americans (a mainly Christian Country). So much so that there are actually children's books that have been published that teach them not to fear everyone in a turban or robes.

The way that SOME Christians are pushing for war looks to be headed down the same road that the Crusades went down.

Then we look at things like the Abu Ghraib prison where American soldiers tortured prisoners and the recent issues of "waterboarding" prisoners of war. (Waterboarding is a practice where a person is strapped to a board and a cloth is placed over his face and water is poured over the cloth. This makes a person feel like he is drowning which is a VERY scary feeling.)

This quote is from Ameen Saeed Al-Sheik, a prisoner in Abu Ghraib
Torture and ordering him to convert to Christianity...

So what happens when we are called to kill in the name of God? Is this what God wants? Is this what America wants? Is it right for us to go into another country and attack them, torture them and force our religion on them as was done in the Crusades? Is this America's Crusade?

I'm a Christian, and I have to say... I agree with pretty much everything you said.

It is disturbing that people constantly use the Bible and Christianity as props for their agendas. It's disturbing the politicization of Christianity and the Bible, but even more importantly involving sides of issues that shouldn't even be Christian!

As a Christian, I really dislike seeing the same Jesus who told us to love our neighbors and return good for evil and spoke against "eye for an eye" thinking is used by politicians to support warmongering and "eye for an eye" justice.

I did not support Bush in 2004 (or Kerry) but voted for a 3rd party candidate. I don't think we had any business being in Iraq, I don't agree with the Death Penalty, and I don't see why universal health care is a bad thing. I don't believe in demonizing illegal immigrants.

I can't understand why many make it the "Christian" view to say the opposite of such things.

Catholics and some Protestant groups like the Puritans made the same error I think of saying they could harm others and judge others according to the Old Testament Law. But we are called to love our neighbors, overcome evil with good, and forgive others with the same mercy God has shown us.

A Christianity without grace is a dead and worthless Christianity with the potential to be more evil than anything else in this world.

[Erdemir 0]

In the late 11th century Byzantine Emperor Alexius I called for help to defend his Christian empire (which included Jerusalem, the Christian holy city) against invading Turks (who were Muslims).

This sounds like a honor for me as a Turk. Yes, they have invaded our lands lots of times. By the way the things like gunpowder has passed to the Europeans while they were invading Turkish lands. Edited June 18, 2008 by Erdemir (see edit history)

[Janissary 0]

3. The war in Iraq: I'm guessing you've forgotten about a time when the United States was attacked, with no provoking. We were hit hard, our economy was sent reeling, and many people of our nation were killed, while they were doing nothing more than working at their jobs. Then, a little later, we hear that more of our enemies have possession of nuclear weapons. Immediately we start fearing that another attack, 1000 times worse than 9-11, could happen, an attack that could turn our country, the most powerful country in the world, into a third world county overnight. What do we do? Anything we can to survive. I'm not saying it was the right thing to do, I'm not even saying Iraq was related in any way to 9-11. What I am saying is that we started the war because we were scared for our lives, not because Bush wanted oil, money, and power, and not because he wanted to Christianize the region.

Yes, people were scared and cant think properly so polticians, power centers, religious nutjobs etc used people's fear to lead them to a unjust war. The invasion of Iraq helped nothing for the security of USA even worsing it as 2nd Gulf War provided a training and recuitment place for terorrists.

 

By the way, I (as a muslim and a Truk) have no hard feelings to western world becasue of the crusades. After all, it was age of empires... But I condem them for the war crimes the crusaders commited.