Start Your Garden Inside A Seed Starter Primer for Northern Climes

[pinwillie 0]

I didn't know they had hydroponic set ups for inside homes.

There are many systems out there you can buy for the home hobby people. If you don't have a Hydroponic store near you, look online. The Hydro Shop in my area, is owned by a master gardener. it helps when you are having problems. You can also find plans on the Internet to build your own home system. they work just as good as the ones you can buy in the store, alot more work involved in the beginning. Gathering the supplies and tools needed, then building the system.I have 2 store bought ones, and one I built. No difference in production...

We have a great south facing hill that an earth sheltered greenhouse would be perfect on.

I've seen many different size Greenhouse's for sale on the Internet. I have a neighbor down the street, that built his own, with 2X4's and heavy gauge plastic. He takes it down in the winter and puts it back up in the Spring. I've never been in it, to see how its put together, so it can be set up and taken down quickly though.

How are the hyrdo tomatoes on taste?

You can add ingredients to your nute water, to enhance flavor. More than anything else in the beginning you'll need luck. When I started out doing this 5-6 years ago. one crop would be great, nice flavor and texture. next grow do everything the same, and after pulling the first few Tomatoes/Peppers off the plant they were nasty tasting, cut it down and start over again!!!!

I did try to remove the cap on a couple of the pepper plants, but they were stuck tight and I just broke the tops off and killed 'em anyway. Pretty bummed out over that one. Oh well, maybe next year.

I know the feeling, because I've lost count on how many I've killed, trying to figure out when to try this. I will go see the guys at my local Hydro Shop and ask them what can be done, I have to go up there anyways.....
Hydroponics could be its own sub forum.
Growing Hydroponiclly is a near perfect environment for growing plants.You are less likely to be invaded by Pests, have better disease control, no weeds to compete for the nutes!!!

Hydroponics is nothing more than growing with water, and some kind of substrate, to give the plants roots something to attach to, it does help with supporting the plant, but you also, even with a fan, need to support the plant itself. they sell a clip you can attach a string to, then you just need somewhere above to attach the other end. As the plant grows, just wrap it around the string.

Water alone is not enough, there is a whole array of nutrients to choose from.
Nutes are mixed into the water. They range from chemically derived to organically derived, a combination of the two. There is an array of additives to add also, from growth stimulates, flowering stimulates, flavor enhancing compounds. They to are sold as chemically derived and organically derived, or a combination of the two.
Nutes and additives can be either in concentrated liquid form, or concentrated powder form. Most of the nutes I use are in the liquid form. I do use one that is in powder form.

This a gross overview of hydroponics. Hydroponics is nothing more than a big MAD scientist experiment.
One nice aspect of hydroponics is when you do your water change, you can take that water and use it in your outside growing beds. Mainly you have to find what works for you!!!

If you decide to do an Internet Search on hydroponics, be for warned, you will have to wade through all kinds of sites on hydro, lets just say they deal with something of an illegal aspect, of the hobby!!!!

This really does not even began to cover it.
I find it relaxing to go into my grow room and tend to my plants.
Hope this helps, if not I can try to clear something up for ya, but i'm no expert!!
Edited June 23, 2007 by pinwillie (see edit history)

[sheepdog 10]

Interesting......Very Interesting! Now I've got another project to consider! LOL, just want I needed! If I live to be 103, I probably won't finish all the one's I'm considering now. I do love the internet though, it makes reasearching things like hydroponics a whole lot easier to do. That sounds like a great thing to dig into this comming winter when my yearning for a real tomato kicks in hard. Thanks for the incentive!

[Misanthrope 0]

Hydroponics could be its own sub forum.

Indeed! Why limit the topic of gardening to a mere three months a year? I've googled the subject in the past, and yes - most of the topics do seem to cater to a certain, uhmm...subculture. Guess they figure most people won't bother to go to all the trouble and expense unless the promise of a big, non taxed payoff awaits. They forget about those of us who would highly value a home grown, non-medicinal tasting tomato in the dead of winter.

And even funnier one (well, really not funny if it passes) is the new proposed mandatory spay/neuter law for ALL pets over age 4 months now proposed in California!

Yeah, they always propose something that on the surface sounds quite benign. Admittedly, we have a serious problem with pet overpopulation, but this law (if it becomes one) will not stop scum bags from allowing their pets to run loose and indiscriminately breed, or the assorted scum who breed for dog fights, research labs, etc. As usual, the law abiding citizen will be targeted; in this case, the legitimate breeder and responsible pet owner. Kinda reminds me of the lame gun laws they keep imposing on law abiding citizens, while criminals wreak havoc virtually unchecked. Rather than enforce laws/ordinances/statutes already on the books, they keep looking for ways to eliminate what few rights we have left. And you're dead on regarding the food supply. Thankfully, there's a movement to perpetuate heirloom seeds and all things "slow food."

Funny we were just discusing skunks and of all things, last night about the time I decided it was time to hit the sack, I got a whiff of that old familiar smell,

Ahhh, that old familiar smell.. Don't you just wish you could bottle up that wonderful stench and dish it up for "special" occasions? I've got a pair of pants that have taken on a new, and apparently permanent odor after an unfortunate meeting with a skunk. I admit it was my fault, as I had the little guy cornered after he took the bate for what was meant for a feral cat. We've got a stray cat problem here and I've got a serious soft spot for felines. People like to dump their kitties and they form colonies, so I trap them, get them fixed and release them. If they're young enough, they can be adopted out, but the older ones have to be put back in the environment they came from. Anyway, it's not uncommon for skunks to get caught in the trap, and usually they behave quite well when I use soft, dulcet tones on them. But last time I was in a hurry and the little guy let loose a little spray - not even directly on me, but it was enough to stink me up pretty good. He waddled off and I took off for the shower....a very, very long shower. I must have washed those pants a dozen times and the smell lingers to this day. I guess I've been pretty lucky with them so far, other than this one occasion. Yes, we see a lot of skunk road kill here too. Not sure why it's so hard to avoid hitting them. It's not like they just dart out in front of cars like deer. Some idiot hit a moose last winter. The idiot lived, but poor mama moose died. I was kind of hoping it would have turned out the other way around.

[sheepdog 10]

"As usual, the law abiding citizen will be targeted" Always the way it goes. The majority pays for the stupidity of the minority. Now I have another question for you. When you trap a feral cat, how on earth do you get it out of the trap, to the vet, etc without getting eaten alive? I didn't think you could sweet talk a wild cat. Too bad your probably far away, I am once again catless. I haven't seen our old momma cat for ages, she used to come buy every time I ran out and deliver me another litter. Most of the people with give aways just have little kittens, which wouldn't stand a chance around here. Ya know, you should keep those pants in a plastic bag, and rent them out to people. They would be handy to wear when you had to go someplacy you didn't want to be!

[Misanthrope 0]

Now I have another question for you. When you trap a feral cat, how on earth do you get it out of the trap, to the vet, etc without getting eaten alive?

It's easier to sweet talk a skunk than a tomcat, that's for sure! Thankfully, the trap is small enough to simply pick up and take to the vet. We usually cover it with a blanket to keep the poor little things from stressing anymore than necessary. After being altered the vet will cut a small notch off the ear to identify it as a sterilized feral cat. This is really important. I once made the mistake of bringing in what I thought was an unaltered male to be spayed. This particular vet actually cut into the poor thing to perform the spay surgery before realizing that "she" was actually a he - and he had already been nuetered! Needless to say I felt horrible. At any rate, they've actually coined the phrase, "Trap-Neuter-Return (TNR) to describe the whole process.

Too bad your probably far away, I am once again catless. I haven't seen our old momma cat for ages, she used to come buy every time I ran out and deliver me another litter.

Poor mama cat - they don't live long out in the wild. Hopefully another kitty will grace you with it's presence soon.

Ya know, you should keep those pants in a plastic bag, and rent them out to people. They would be handy to wear when you had to go someplacy you didn't want to be!

Heck! Why didn't I think of that? I'll have to wear them next time I get invited to some tedious affair. Thankfully, that doesn't happen very often as I've pretty much limited my social interaction to family and unseen entities in cyber-space. Must be that whole misanthropic thing....
Are you going to get into doing an earth sheltered greenhouse? Sounds time intensive but the rewards would be great, I'm sure. I'd love to get into that some day. Actually, what I'd really like is some flat property to do some large scale gardening. Our little garden doesn't produce near what I'd like it to.

[sheepdog 10]

The underground green house is another one of those "dreams" though we do have pretty much all the "fixings" A backhoe to dig it out, and eventually we will have a wood heated underground water piping to heat one of the kennel buildings, so it would not be a stretch to run lines to heat a greenhouse too. My better 1/2 is a whiz at fixing/building etc so there's no problem there. It's just getting the time to do it. We have so stinking many projects started/needing to be started, that it's just pretty hopeless. Before I took over the kennel I was very much into self sufficient living and was quite near the point that I no longer needed a "town" job to support the farm. The dogs changed that, they are extremely time consuming, so many other projects went by the wayside. I find myself now gradually going back the other way. With all the food scares and insane government rules and regulations, I think it foolish not to have a back up plan. So maybe I am paranoid, but the TV show Jerico doesn't seem much like sci fi to me. I can see where it could easily enough be a reality show. So can the vet tranq the cat without getting ahold of it? It would have to be a tiny cage to keep a cat from twisting away from a needle injection. The ear notching, that's a good idea though. Poor kitty, double neuter, that's rough. Bet you don't get it back in a trap though! The TNR is a great program. At least it gives some control to the feral cat problem. A big FC population is tough on wildlife, birds, rabbits, and all suffer when cats multiply like rats, and the feral cats do, because they get a little extra help from well meaning people who help feed them. Flat land is a big plus for gardening, but not completely needed. I forgot where it was, but was watching a tv show just the other day that was showing vineyards on a hill so steep I doubt if my clumsy butt could even walk up and down it! I'm serious, it looked almost completely verticule!

[Misanthrope 0]

We have so stinking many projects started/needing to be started, that it's just pretty hopeless

I know what you mean. It's all so overwhelming sometimes I wonder how anything gets accomplished. I don't think people have any idea how much work goes into maintaining a farm and homestead, not to mention the monetary expense. Knowing how much work one dog can be I can't even imagine how much energy the kennel must consume. But as you say, when they control the food supply, they control us. I'd like to putter away the time on more frivolous pursuits, but I know what's coming down the pike, and it ain't pretty. You're not paranoid - your awake!

So can the vet tranq the cat without getting ahold of it?

We ordered our trap from ACES, and it's got a movable panel that allows the vet to restrain the kitty on one end of the trap for sedation. Then kitty can be safely removed from the trap for altering. If you ever think you might be interested in doing this, be sure to find a vet who's willing to do the alterations at a discount and is flexible on receiving feral kitties. Alley Cat Allies is a great rescue group that can point folks wanting to get involved in the right direction.

Flat land is a big plus for gardening, but not completely needed.

Yeah, but terracing is such a chore . Up here they want $65 an hour to do back hoe work. Then the further you dig down, the crappier the soil is. Not like our soil is great to begin with. Like yours, it's mostly rock, and we have lots of clay too so we have to bring in sand to so it actually drains. But here's the funny thing: I've noticed that people who have challenging climate/conditions usually produce the best gardens!

[sheepdog 10]

Ok that makes sense about the trap now. I always wondered about that. Since there arent a surplus of feral kitties here, I don't suppose I need to start a trap line. I suspect sooner or later a few cats will drop by, find a mouse hunting paradise, and take up residence. I have a friend that does work with a lot of different rescues, next time I talk to her I'll see if she knows anyone doing the TNR and at least volunteer as a drop off for fixed ones. And on this trapping subject, do you have a link for the Ace place, or do they have a web site? Or maybe you can tell me, do they make a giant sized live trap? Since we moved the goats, I have one dog (komondor) I can't catch, she comes in for feed, but I can't get withing a 100 yards of her. She has spend her entire life protecting the goat herd, and was not socialized much with humans, and could care less about us. "But here's the funny thing: I've noticed that people who have challenging climate/conditions usually produce the best gardens"Your absolutly right. And the reason for that is people in those type situations WANT the garden more, and work harder at it, pay more attention to the little details, and just in general stay on top of the situation better.

[Misanthrope 0]

As a matter of fact, I do have a link for Aces. Here it is: http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/ They have all manner of traps including large sizes for big dogs like Komondor. I wonder if it's possible at this point in her life to socialize her? So far my only experience with that sort of thing has been with cats, and the dogs I've fostered were domestic to start with. I'm pretty sure we have packs of wild dogs running around these hills, though. We saw one that looked like it was probably a wolf hybrid. Why people continue to breed the hybrids is beyond me, as they really have a hard time adapting to either domestic or wild habitat. I guess some people think it's macho to own a "wolf dog." Usually, the wolf is too much to handle and ends up being put down or if it's lucky, placed at one of the few hybrid sanctuaries around the country.

people in those type situations WANT the garden more

True enough. I haven't seen a Californian or anyone located in prime growing regions chime in on the gardening threads so far. On the contrary, most are either located at higher altitudes or live on gravel pits. Must be our stubborn tenacity!

[sheepdog 10]

Thanks for the link, I'll have to check that out. Raising koms for livestock guard dogs is a delicate art. You don't really want them socialized. They are not supposed to bond with people. You want them just tame enough you can catch them to administer shots, wormings or treatment in case of injuries. They make better guards that way. Unfortunatly, not enough and you end up not being able to catch them, which is the situation I have with this one dog now. She is beyond redemption, which I don't really mind, if I could just catch her and get her moved back to where the goats are now. She would be fine if she was with her own flock. Not all dogs can be pets, there are still some that, like us humans, have a job to do and work for a living.

[Misanthrope 0]

Thanks for the link, I'll have to check that out.

No problem! They have a catalog available too. Unfortunately, their stuff isn't cheap, but the cages do hold up over time. We've had ours for a couple years and keep it out in rain, snow, or shine and it's held up fine. One thing we add is a piece of plywood over the top to ensure the critter stays dry and/or shaded overnight, which is usually when they get trapped. Then we check it every morning, but it's easy to forget. We have to make a conscious effort else the critter end up stranded in the cage any longer than necessary.

Not all dogs can be pets, there are still some that, like us humans, have a job to do and work for a living.

I have to admit that's a concept I'm real familiar with, other than the so-called "working" breed label attached to German Shepherds, Rotts and the like. But I know these breeds definitely need something to do or they go crazy. At least a walk with their owners. I was thinking "Kom" was the dog's name but apparently it's a breed I've never heard of. Where did that breed originate, and how do you train them to herd goats and all that good stuff? In our neck of the woods Australian Shepherds seem pretty popular for that sort of thing. I'm not real crazy about the heel nipping, though.
I almost forgot: did you restart any peppers? Can't go through summer without any peppers!
Edited June 30, 2007 by Misanthrope (see edit history)

[sheepdog 10]

Sorry, shouldn't of abbreviated. It's Komondor. A breed of livestock guard dog. Emphises on GUARD. They do not herd. They simply live in the fields with the sheep/goats. In sheep herds, it's hard to even see the dog, their long corded coat blends in with the rest of the flock. The breed most likely originated in Hungaria. When you think about the breed and the job they do, I find them one of the most amazing creatures man ever developed. The breed is very old, some form of it has been bred for over a thousand years. To develope a breed that would bond to other species and live in harmony with them and actually kill members of their own species is simply mind boggling. Just last week I was watching a whole bunch of baby goats playing king of the mountain on one of my female koms. She just layed there and let them bounce all over her. But I guarantee you if a stray dog or coyote had passed through, it would die quickly. They need no training. All the instincts have been bred into them. They do of course, need to be born and raised right with the goats (or whatever animal you wish them to protect) to make the best guards. They can be a bit odd at times. I thought it was pretty funny, last year we raised a big steer. When the steer came around the goats the dogs would chase him away. BUT, when our steer got out and went to the neighbors cattle herd, the koms followed him, and kept the neighbors cattle run off from our steer. Unfortunatly, our neighbor did not see the humor in his cattle not being able to eat the feed he was putting out, so we had to fix fence and bring our obnoxious beasts home. Unfortunatly, I gave up on growing my own pepper plants. Was too late in the season, and so I just found some Anaheim pepper plants from a swap meet vendor that had some a bit more reasonable than even Wally World. I bought one Cow Horn pepper plant from Walmart, they are supposed to be large, and hot. My better half has been promising to learn to make chili reno's, so I hope the plant does well! We had high hopes of getting a decent garden planted this year, but things just didn't go like we had hoped. I have a really good spot fenced off next door, where I used to raise my market garden, I have worked the soil up over the years and picked rock till I was blue in the face, and planted and tilled in lots of cover crops, so it is a pretty good spot now, even if we don't get to use it much. It's always there and I can always hope!

[Misanthrope 0]

Sounds like you've got your hands full with your Komondor! I've personally never seen one in action, but it must be quite the site. I ended up buying some broccoli starts due to plain laziness on my part. I should have started them around the same time I started the peppers but I kept procrastinating until it was too late, and the plants I bought from the nursery didn't work out at all. They ended up bolting early which makes them pretty useless now, unless someone out there knows a way to salvage bolted brocolli. Still, what meager parts of the plants I was able to harvest tasted heavenly sauteed in olive oil, garlic, and hot pepper flakes. I re-started some watermelon that died to due to me putting it out in the garden too early, but this second batch isn't looking very good either. They're in a new bed with crappy, clay soil that doesn't drain well with lots of rocks and pebbles thrown in for good measure, so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised. Chili reno's, eh? Now you're talking! Don't forget the beer and tequila...

[pinwillie 0]

Yeah, but terracing is such a chore sad.gif . Up here they want $65 an hour to do back hoe work. Then the further you dig down, the crappier the soil is. Not like our soil is great to begin with. Like yours, it's mostly rock, and we have lots of clay too so we have to bring in sand to so it actually drains. But here's the funny thing: I've noticed that people who have challenging climate/conditions usually produce the best gardens!

A word of caution, I'm doing this from memory some things may not be exactly be right, so you should fully research the following, before attempting.

Good soil conditions include: top soil, small stones, clay, sand, and organic matter. Which the experts call Loam.
I also heard it said at one point in time that if you have lots of worms in your soil, you have pretty happy soil


No matter what your soil conditions are you should add organic matter, over a period of time this alone will improve your soil.

Organic Matter:
If you have it enough of it, mix in a 2 inch layer of compost
A couple other ways to add organic matter. When you cut your grass, gather your clippings and use them to linethe area in between your rows, this does 2 things, cuts weed growrth between your rows, less time weeding, and holds water in longer. less waterings....
In the fall when you rake your leaves dump 1 to 2 inches all over garden area. I grind them up with the mower first. then mix it in and let set till spring. Don't pull the plants out either till them in also.
Important note: Limit the amount of oak leaves you add, they are very acidic!!!!
As these items break down, they will add much needed Nitrogen and organic matter to your soil.
A little more on Nitrogen later.

You can add a number of soil amendments to your clay to turn it into a loam. sand for drainage, mix in some top soil, and peat moss. Amendments added this year will do little good till the following year, they need time to break down, time is your friend here, and your rival!!!
Something else you can add, to aid in drainage, unless you already have some, you could also add Pea Stone.
I wish I could remember what percentages of each is needed.
As the Seasons pass you should start to see your conditions change.
Your work has just begun though....



What if after doing all this, something still just doesn't seem right, your soil may still be lacking something, to determine this, you need a soil test.... You can take a soil sample in to be tested, or you can go to your local outdoor garden supply store and purchase a soil tester. All they or you are gonna test is NPK and the PH of your Soil.
N stands for Nitrogen, P stands for Phosphorus, K stands for Potassium, these are the three main Nutrients all plants need to grow and produce. Nitrogen(N) helps with leaf growth and chlorophyll. Phosphorus(P) aids in fruit, flower, and root growth and development. Potassium(K) helps with stem and root growth. These are what they call macro nutrients. there is a multitude of micro nutrients. When you find out what you are lacking in you can add the appropriate amendment to adjust, be warned most amendments are long acting. one other test you are gonna need to run is a PH test, to determine the acidity of your soil, PH of 7 is considered neutral, above is more alkaline, below is acidic. Most plants do best with slightly acidic conditions, say a PH of 6.5 to 6. The test kit I used a few years ago, tested all, NPK and PH.

Another way of thinking about it is....you know them numbers on the bag of fertilizer, that you may or may not know what they mean.
N P K
for example: 10-10-5
10% nitrogen 10% phosphorus 5% potassium