"just When Is A Cartoon Too Offensive?" Tom Toles political cartoon offends many...

[Iriacynthe 0]

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I'm really just caught between this...Tom Toles obviously took this cartoon way too far by dishonoring crippled troops. I don't support this war in any way, but isn't that a bit arrogant? There are so many ways to get your opinion out and your voice heard; I just don't see why some people feel the need to do it at the emotional expense of others. I'm really interested in hearing other people's thoughts about this because it really is a balanced conflict.

[Dragonfly 0]

This is my opinion. I hope you will respect it. This is eastern view on western people. In western countries, people are too free and too liberal that they started saying and doing whatever is in their mind, and sometimes they go beyond the limit. And that causes lots and lots of problems. And the problem with some countries is that they are too conservative (especially in muslim countries) that people cannot voice their opinion properly again. These two extreme are both bad for societies and human race. I wonder when will a very balance world and people will emerge in this world.And the cartoon in question stands for the first argument I've put. This is my frank opinion. This cartoon is somewhat similar to Prophet Mohammed's cartoon that is causing lots of protest in the Muslim world.

[adriantc 0]

I do not like the muslim religion because, as someone said in a blog, it isn't reformed. There was a time when christians where burned just for having a different point of view. But that time has passed. The influence of the church (and religion) in a modern society is very low compared to that time when the church (and religion) ruled everything. Times have changed... western civilizations fought many wars, 2 of them world wars, built empires that, in time, collapsed. But after every such experience the western civilizations learned and prospered, building what we have today... freedom! We can talk about whatever we want without beeing afraid of getting punished... Muslim religion, in my opinion, hasn't changed much since the crusades. I won't put a gun in the hand of someone who is driven by blind faith in something. Faith blinds reason, the only thing that makes the difference between animals and humans...Religion is a very effective political weapon. It has been proven over and over again in history.... Religion is good, don't get me wrong...it gives people hope and a reason to live, but there is more to life then waiting for a presumed God. That is the main difference... Western civilizations have let go that strong connection with God, built empires based on material stuff, money and blood, while the Eastern civilizations refuse to let go, refuse to see the posibility that we may be alone, and that there is no one watching us, refuse to connect to the real world. We make our own destiny... As I see it, for something (a human, an animal or a human civilization) to survive it must adapt. Times have changed. We have conquered space, we are a lot smarter then the cave men waiting for God to give him food. We know better...And that is the reason the newspaper should have published that images... we claim to be better, to have more freedom. But if we have a better civilization shouldn't we have more respect for the ones that don't share our point of view. Isn't the right to belive into whatever you want written in the human rights. Just because they have a 14 century point of view doesn't mean they are they are any less human then us.So, in my opinion, even if I do not agree with the muslim blind faith in God, I strongly disagree with the cartoons. The newspaper should have stoped the photos from beeing printed. We must have respect for the people that are different. Isn't that like the most important thing in our beloved democracy - equality. So are we really that much better if we can't see the big picture?

[Iriacynthe 0]

This is my opinion. I hope you will respect it. This is eastern view on western people. In western countries, people are too free and too liberal that they started saying and doing whatever is in their mind, and sometimes they go beyond the limit. And that causes lots and lots of problems.

 

And the problem with some countries is that they are too conservative (especially in muslim countries) that people cannot voice their opinion properly again. These two extreme are both bad for societies and human race. I wonder when will a very balance world and people will emerge in this world.

 

And the cartoon in question stands for the first argument I've put. This is my frank opinion. This cartoon is somewhat similar to Prophet Mohammed's cartoon that is causing lots of protest in the Muslim world.

 

Western nations aren't, in fact, too liberal. The opposings sides between the conservatives and liberals are often divided equally among different nations. One of the things we value here is the freedom to say whatever you want as long as it isn't threatening someone else. This brings about problems among people, but it isn't so extreme to the point where all hell breaks loose. It is balanced on both sides of the matter.

 

The political cartoon you are talking about is a much different view on the matter. The person who has drawn this cartoon has targetted and stereotyped a group of people. Whereas Tom Tole's cartoon was trying to make a point about our stance in Iraq, Mohammed's cartoon was an example of deliberate misdemeanor.

 

I do not like the muslim religion because, as someone said in a blog, it isn't reformed.

Is a non-reformed religion that bad? Pagan religions, for the most part, aren't reformed, but yet Wicca is the third fastest growing religion in the United States. For thousands of years Pagans where the dominate faith, but it wasn't until Christianity came along, as I recall, until war and problems broke out.

 

Times have changed... western civilizations fought many wars, 2 of them world wars, built empires that, in time, collapsed. But after every such experience the western civilizations learned and prospered, building what we have today... freedom!

What we have today didn't come from Christianity. It came through trial and error...starting with the Greeks, who founded democracy. The World Wars were just that, World Wars - that's including the Eastern Civilizations. Last I checked, China hasn't ever collapsed.

 

Western civilizations have let go that strong connection with God, built empires based on material stuff, money and blood, while the Eastern civilizations refuse to let go, refuse to see the posibility that we may be alone, and that there is no one watching us, refuse to connect to the real world. We make our own destiny... As I see it, for something (a human, an animal or a human civilization) to survive it must adapt. Times have changed. We have conquered space, we are a lot smarter then the cave men waiting for God to give him food. We know better...

Western Civilizations really haven't let go of "that strong connection with God". The dominate religion in society today is still Catholicism which, believe it or not, does still weave its way into politics. "One Nation Under God" is still in the United State's Pledge Of Allegiance...and your belief in the non-God does not void the roots in the Western political system. You've mentioned cavemen, but I don't think it's fair to compare those of Eastern Civilization with a pre-evolved humanoid.

 

Overall, what you did have to say had meaning, and it was a well-supported opinion. However, I don't see it fair to call a faith you don't like because it isn't "reformed" blind. There are many things that Eastern Civilization has accomplished that we could never hope to - and vice versa.

[adriantc 0]

Western nations aren't, in fact, too liberal. The opposings sides between the conservatives and liberals are often divided equally among different nations. One of the things we value here is the freedom to say whatever you want as long as it isn't threatening someone else. This brings about problems among people, but it isn't so extreme to the point where all hell breaks loose. It is balanced on both sides of the matter.

 

The political cartoon you are talking about is a much different view on the matter. The person who has drawn this cartoon has targetted and stereotyped a group of people. Whereas Tom Tole's cartoon was trying to make a point about our stance in Iraq, Mohammed's cartoon was an example of deliberate misdemeanor.

Is a non-reformed religion that bad? Pagan religions, for the most part, aren't reformed, but yet Wicca is the third fastest growing religion in the United States. For thousands of years Pagans where the dominate faith, but it wasn't until Christianity came along, as I recall, until war and problems broke out.

What we have today didn't come from Christianity. It came through trial and error...starting with the Greeks, who founded democracy. The World Wars were just that, World Wars - that's including the Eastern Civilizations. Last I checked, China hasn't ever collapsed.

Western Civilizations really haven't let go of "that strong connection with God". The dominate religion in society today is still Catholicism which, believe it or not, does still weave its way into politics. "One Nation Under God" is still in the United State's Pledge Of Allegiance...and your belief in the non-God does not void the roots in the Western political system. You've mentioned cavemen, but I don't think it's fair to compare those of Eastern Civilization with a pre-evolved humanoid.

 

Overall, what you did have to say had meaning, and it was a well-supported opinion. However, I don't see it fair to call a faith you don't like because it isn't "reformed" blind. There are many things that Eastern Civilization has accomplished that we could never hope to - and vice versa.

 

Well first of all I haven't compared them to the cavemen. I only said that we should not expect the divine intervention sometime soon, because wars still happen, earthquakes still happen... people still die. Religion is hope and hope is good. It helps us in the worst days. But to make religion the base of your life it is just madness. We have to live in the real world and deal with the real world problems like pointless wars, hunger, etc.

And yes there are aspects in these un-reformed religions that are good. Some should be learned... but once again, building your existance on one belive that may or may not be true is not good. Because this kind of passion for religion can build monsters... why would someone blow himself up in the name of religion... that,. in my opinion, is the power of faith without knowlege

I do not agree with you on the fact that western civilizations have let go of that strong connection with God. Simply because I'm asking "What if there is no God?" it is proof that western civilizations have have let go of that strong connection with God. I haven't seen in my life a muslim wondering if his God really exists. Isn't that blind faith. Faith without any kind of proof???

Even the fact that the West is based on money supports that. Money means something you can see and touch, it is the opposite of religion. Money takes people in the opposite direction of where religion takes us. Money makes us selfish, makes us forget who we were and where we came from. And maybe that is why sometimes a little religion is better. But that is, in my opinion, the price of progress...

Edited February 7, 2006 by adriantc (see edit history)

[Iriacynthe 0]

Religion is hope and hope is good. It helps us in the worst days. But to make religion the base of your life it is just madness.

I disagree with you - I think making religion, or some belief of a higher power, is beneficial...and that really contradicts itself. Hope is good, and in order for some people to make it through the day, they need to believe that their higher power is guiding them. Religion drives people to make it through life, the strive for success, and to have good morals. Naturally, no matter what, these morals make their way into government as well. Eastern culture has a different set of morals and beliefs. For instance, they value life and time much, MUCH more than Western culture does. Therefore, their government and the morals and beliefs of the people in charge will directly reflect the politics in that nation.

And yes there are aspects in these un-reformed religions that are good. Some should be learned... but once again, building your existance on one belive that may or may not be true is not good. Because this kind of passion for religion can build monsters... why would someone blow himself up in the name of religion... that,. in my opinion, is the power of faith without knowlege

There are extremists out there that do tend to blur the border between religion and government, but they don't kill themselves for 'God'. They kill themselves because they want to hurt the people that they're against, and they don't care if they die while doing it. Faith wouldn't be faith if it were proved by fact.

Even the fact that the West is based on money supports that. Money means something you can see and touch, it is the opposite of religion. Money takes people in the opposite direction of where religion takes us. Money makes us selfish, makes us forget who we were and where we came from. And maybe that is why sometimes a little religion is better. But that is, in my opinion, the price of progress...

Could you please elaborate on this? It seems to contradict a whole lot of things you've said.

[adriantc 0]

Could you please elaborate on this? It seems to contradict a whole lot of things you've said.

It's pretty simple what I am saying. Western civilizations don't have God as their main way of life. We have money, we have economy. I said money is the exact oposite of faith. And money is the base of the capitalistic world we live in. And living only for the money, for what YOU can do with it is really bad.
The fact that the Eastern world is so agains the cartoons only shows the gap between the civilizations. If a newspaper would have published some pictures with Moses (for example) nobody would have really cared (maybe a small amount of people...only the very religios ones). But in the east you can the scale of the problem... people die for a cartoon... that is not good at all. I'm not saying that the cartoons are nothing, but it sure (for any point of view) it's something worth do die for. And that it what passion in religion leads to... not only to terrorists...

[Iriacynthe 0]

It's pretty simple what I am saying. Western civilizations don't have God as their main way of life. We have money, we have economy. I said money is the exact oposite of faith. And money is the base of the capitalistic world we live in. And living only for the money, for what YOU can do with it is really bad.

The fact that the Eastern world is so agains the cartoons only shows the gap between the civilizations. If a newspaper would have published some pictures with Moses (for example) nobody would have really cared (maybe a small amount of people...only the very religios ones). But in the east you can the scale of the problem... people die for a cartoon... that is not good at all. I'm not saying that the cartoons are nothing, but it sure (for any point of view) it's something worth do die for. And that it what passion in religion leads to... not only to terrorists...

Are you speaking from a point of view in Romania? Over in the United States, we don't make decisions based off of religion. However, most practicing Christians are influenced by their way of life. What I'm trying to say is that different religions will present different pros and different cons in each society they're involved in. Money, in my opinion, is not the exact opposite of faith - fact is. In Western Civilization we live with so much money which blinds us with luxury rather than what is right. We would rather live a life of being lazy enriched with material goods rather than a life of poverty enriched with spiritual enlightenment. That is the gap between the two civilations.

[adriantc 0]

In Western Civilization we live with so much money which blinds us with luxury rather than what is right. We would rather live a life of being lazy enriched with material goods rather than a life of poverty enriched with spiritual enlightenment. That is the gap between the two civilations.

That is exactly what I wanted to point out. You see, both civilizations are in the wrong place. One dowsn't have a spiritual life (I do not mean only God, I mean spiritual in a more general way), while the other has a too spiritual life and they loose contact with the real world... Isn't that the oposite... One has too little the other has too much???

Are you speaking from a point of view in Romania?

Well I didn't say religion is the last on the list, but these days people have other problems then spending Sundays in church. There are people who still do that, but they are old folks, the young do that anymore. And I do not blame them, since I am myself a men of science rather then of faith... Returning to the subject...

Over in the United States, we don't make decisions based off of religion. However, most practicing Christians are influenced by their way of life.

Could you give me examples of decisions based on religion? Because I have a lot of "decisions based off religion". Bush still declares war whenever he wants, he still sends others to die in this pointless was against terrorism... The famous "American Dream" includes money in a much bigger way then it includes God. I'm not saying that the american way is bad, it is (as I already said) the price of progress.

PS: I have seen something really stupid on TV today. With the occasion of a special day for muslims (sorry, but I forgot the name) there were a huge number (1000's) of people hitting themselfs with a stick which has some metal pieces at the end. And they just kept hitting their own backs with it until they were covered in blood. It is a tradition... but that is what I meant when I said that this religion should be reformed. This kind of stuff is not normal since we are in the year 2006. Maybe around 1400s it was a normal thing, but now it seems very cruel. They are free to do whatever they like and we have to respect that, but they should know better then that... I hope that some day they will understand that

[Iriacynthe 0]

Could you give me examples of decisions based on religion? Because I have a lot of "decisions based off religion". Bush still declares war whenever he wants, he still sends others to die in this pointless was against terrorism... The famous "American Dream" includes money in a much bigger way then it includes God. I'm not saying that the american way is bad, it is (as I already said) the price of progress.

George Bush declared war once...although it was based off of fabricated information, he doesn't declare war "whenever he wants." And in no way am I defending George Bush because I am probably one of his worst fans. George Bush declared war on Iraq, not because they were involved in 9-11, but as to hinder or halt any future terrorist plans that Iraqi extremists were planning. Believe it or not, George W. Bush makes most of his decisions based off of religion. He still declines the right for gays to marry and for women to get abortions; he has also talked about cloning in the past which was a major religious topic to get into.

 

PS: I have seen something really stupid on TV today. With the occasion of a special day for muslims (sorry, but I forgot the name) there were a huge number (1000's) of people hitting themselfs with a stick which has some metal pieces at the end. And they just kept hitting their own backs with it until they were covered in blood. It is a tradition... but that is what I meant when I said that this religion should be reformed. This kind of stuff is not normal since we are in the year 2006. Maybe around 1400s it was a normal thing, but now it seems very cruel. They are free to do whatever they like and we have to respect that, but they should know better then that... I hope that some day they will understand that

Again, it is their way of life, and I don't understand why you believe it to be so stupid. Through their religious practices, and their devotion to their faith, they will know much more on the spiritual level...which will help them with how they run their lives.

[adriantc 0]

Again, it is their way of life, and I don't understand why you believe it to be so stupid. Through their religious practices, and their devotion to their faith, they will know much more on the spiritual level...which will help them with how they run their lives.

What I was trying to point out is that there must be a balance in everything. Because even if you have a very very high spiritual life once the oil is over they will have a very very big problem with getting money (=food). So very rich countries have realized that and are now turning their eyes to turism (it's not much you can in a desert like landscape except turism). The best example are Saudi Arabia and The United Arab Emirates. For them oil is going to be over very soon and turism is the way of the future. But how would go in Iraq to get kidnapped or shot. Once the americans withdraw and once the oil will be over they will have a very big problem on their hands and if they want to survive they will have to open up to the West or starve. In nature a species that doesn't adapt to a change in its enviroment is going extinct...

About these traditions I have a very good example from my country. Here in Romania we have a problem with the gipsy minority. Not only that they have a stupid habit of proclaming themselfs 'kings' over the rest of the minority (yeah... someone sais 'I should be king over the gipsys' and over the night he gets a 3kg gold crown and a 100 kg gold throne... and yeah it is in the habit to have the biggest cars - with no usefulness, biggest house - with the most ugly design, biggest jewls - all just because they want to show that they are better then the rest... in 3 words they would be the definiton of unefficiency). That wouldn't be such a big problem, but in their tradition when a girl gets merried she has to be sold (just like a piece of furniture).... give me 30.000$ and I'll give you my daughter. That is not too bad, but the big problem develops now. Since it has been bought by the bridegroom's parents, the bridegroom has to test his wife's skill in bed and since she is anywhere between 10-11 years old (and beeing mother at 12 years old is nothing spectacular for gipsys) and 18 years. Not only we have a moral problem with their tradition but we also have a legal one.
So you see ... you can't cover everything in the name of religion and traditions. And that is exactly what the terrorists are doing!

[Iriacynthe 0]

What I was trying to point out is that there must be a balance in everything. Because even if you have a very very high spiritual life once the oil is over they will have a very very big problem with getting money (=food). So very rich countries have realized that and are now turning their eyes to turism (it's not much you can in a desert like landscape except turism). The best example are Saudi Arabia and The United Arab Emirates. For them oil is going to be over very soon and turism is the way of the future. But how would go in Iraq to get kidnapped or shot. Once the americans withdraw and once the oil will be over they will have a very big problem on their hands and if they want to survive they will have to open up to the West or starve. In nature a species that doesn't adapt to a change in its enviroment is going extinct...
About these traditions I have a very good example from my country. Here in Romania we have a problem with the gipsy minority. Not only that they have a stupid habit of proclaming themselfs 'kings' over the rest of the minority (yeah... someone sais 'I should be king over the gipsys' and over the night he gets a 3kg gold crown and a 100 kg gold throne... and yeah it is in the habit to have the biggest cars - with no usefulness, biggest house - with the most ugly design, biggest jewls - all just because they want to show that they are better then the rest... in 3 words they would be the definiton of unefficiency). That wouldn't be such a big problem, but in their tradition when a girl gets merried she has to be sold (just like a piece of furniture).... give me 30.000$ and I'll give you my daughter. That is not too bad, but the big problem develops now. Since it has been bought by the bridegroom's parents, the bridegroom has to test his wife's skill in bed and since she is anywhere between 10-11 years old (and beeing mother at 12 years old is nothing spectacular for gipsys) and 18 years. Not only we have a moral problem with their tradition but we also have a legal one.
So you see ... you can't cover everything in the name of religion and traditions. And that is exactly what the terrorists are doing!

I'm still not understanding what you're talking about. Religion has nothing to do with oil, and that has nothing to do with getting food. Yet, I still don't see how tourism plays into this...we originally started talking about why you disliked the Muslim religion, and I'm not quite sure where we're at now. Please explain...

[adriantc 0]

I'm still not understanding what you're talking about. Religion has nothing to do with oil, and that has nothing to do with getting food. Yet, I still don't see how tourism plays into this...we originally started talking about why you disliked the Muslim religion, and I'm not quite sure where we're at now. Please explain...

Well, it is pretty easy... Oil, and I'm sure you will agree with me, will not last forever. And once the oil is over many countries will have a problem with getting funds (for example: Iraq, Saudi Arabia and The United Arab Emirates). So you see, when the oil will run out they will have 2 options: find something new to do or starve, because in the desert there is not much you can do... And I told you that my examples Saudi Arabia and The United Arab Emirates have found something to do: turism. They took the american example and make money out of nothing (in our case from sand.... btw do you know they have a sand based theme park ). But you can't do much turism in a country where people would kill themselves in the name of religion. And the conclusion is that they will have to adapt.

we originally started talking about why you disliked the Muslim religion

I haven't said I disliked muslims because they are muslims, I dislike the fact that religion blinds them. I even have a few muslim friends, but they are all not traditional muslims. They don't eat pig not because they religion doesn't permit them, but because they simply don't like it. And they also drink beer and wine. That is what I like... some free spirits who think for themselves what is good and what is wrong, not what someone tells them.
I have seen last month the way 1000 people died at Mecca in the name of religion. That is what I dislike, faith without reason. Once again I do not dislike muslims for the fact that they are muslims I dislike the fact that they are not open to new, that they are fundamentalists.

[lodd 0]

It might surprise most people to know that "fundamentalist" islam is actually an islam that's been highly influenced by culture. Unfortunately, since a majority of muslims come from middle-eastern countries, this version of islam is the one that is widely viewed and percieved.

 

A few posts ago, you mentioned a holiday where some muslims beat themselves with a stick. In actual truth, the original islam forbids any such self-mutilation. The only thing close to self-mutilation is the compulsory circumcision for males and the optional circumcision for females. However, it's widely known that it's extremely hygienic to do this (and i you can do a google on this or juz ask a doctor). Even many non-muslims do it. So this shouldn't be termed self-mutilation.

 

The fact is that when a "cult" of islam happens, the mainstream muslims don't view that as islam anyore. So what you saw was probably a side-cult that claims itself as islam which the majority (im talkin 97% here) dont practice. The majority of muslims from the new generation of muslims are moderate muslims that dont agree with suicide bombing and condemn the September 11th attacks. They love peace and would only agree for violence in self-defence.

 

These moderate, mainstream, majority muslims are the ones trying to rid the extremist influences of culture on their religion. Example, it's actually a cultural thing that disallows men from talking to women in public in pakistan. This cultural influence doesnt exist in Malaysia and Indonesia. However, in Malaysia and Indonesia, there are still leftover hindu cultural influences of people believing in spirit doctors, black magic and genie's that do your bidding. This is a culture that doesnt exist in pakistan.

 

The majority of muslims also believe that capitalism is a must in their religion. Though not capitalism to the extent that you give bad products in exchange for profit. You'd lose business this way anyway. Islam is actually a religion that tells their converts to seek money. Quite a bit surprising actually. All other religions i see ask people to shun material things for spritual things. This is the only one that says satisfying your wife's sexual needs and material needs (they call it fulfilling her rights as a wife) gives more rewards than charity (without fulfilling her rights).

 

Point im trying to make is that Islam doesnt really need to be reformed. If you're talking about women's rights, they were allowed to vote from the first muslim caliph (ruler) after prophet Muhammad. They were allowed to work from then too. Women participated since the first muslim battles to protect their homeland all the way till when they were building their empire.

 

So i'd say that they're pretty much ok reform-wise. But still, muslims do need to reform. Note: I said muslims not Islam. It's the minority of muslims with really loud voices (i.e. the terrorists) that need to be re-educated on what their religion asks of them.

 

Juz for the record, after research, i've decided that the Palestinians are freedom fighters, not terrorists. The Israelis only invaded their land after 1960 something and started calling it Israel. Yeah, it's their holy land in their holy book. But not everyone agrees with the same holy book as they do.

 

My 2 cents...

[Iriacynthe 0]

Thank you! You've managed to get my point across in one post whereas it's taken me 5+ and I still haven't made it...It's hard to get your point across in your second or third language.