I would say that the initial question is a bad question. I think nobody here can answer the question "does god exist".The real question, and each one of us can answer it, is "do you believe in God ?". And of course, once the answer is "yes", the second step must be "do you think that this god is unique ?".Some religions have several gods (one of war, one for love, one for rain, etc..)Some other religions think that God is a unique being, although you might name Him in several ways (Yahve, Jehovah, Vishnou), he il all by himself, auto-sufficient. And of course he has te be allmighty, being everywhere at the same moment, albe to ear each of us but we should not disturb him too often for neglectible questions.I don't know why Science is systematically opposed to religion. Maybe because science is unable to prove existence or non-existence of any Divinity. Being unable to prove the non-existence of God does not prove that he exists. This simply proves that they belong to separate existence plans.
I do belive in god because if u read the bible it was stated that they would have a major diease and that is hiv and the wars that he said would is happing and people dying everyday sometimes he dosent answer my prayers but somedays he does and he bleesed me with two wonderful chirlden that i love and they love me.But i think one this world will end as was predicted in the bible hope not in my lifetime.
In this post, I will not offer anything towards the existence of God, nor towards the opposite case.
However, it should be noted that many of the arguments used in this topic are prime examples of circular reasoning.
You can not use theology or any books of theology (i.e., Bible, Qur'an, etc.) to prove the existence of God. Theology presupposes the existence of God. How can you have a branch of reasoning devoted to the study of God if there isn't one? You can't; therefore, God must exist in order for theology to be useful and true. That being said, it should be clear why theology can not be used in proofs for God's existence -- if you were to use theology, obviously you'd of already had to prove God exists, or assumed it. Any series of deductions based on even a single assumption is completely unreliable.
Some may also want to quip Anselm's ontological arguement for the existance of God. He describes there are being two possible cases:
God doesn't exist and He is only imaginary
God exists and He is also imaginary (that is, that He is in our imagination as well as His real existence)
Anselm goes on to define God as a "being than which nothing greater can be conceived". That is, that there is nothing better or even thinkable than God. So the question is thus: which is greater of the two former cases? (For sake of clarity, consider the imaginary case as A, imaginary alone, and the case of the actuality as A+B, imaginary and actual. A + B is obviously greater in value than A.) Basic deduction would lead you to say that God existing both actually and mentally is greater, which is true.
But this is not a proof of God's existence. Rather, this is a logical trap -- another circular arguement. This proof of God's existence presupposes that God exists. If God didn't exist, the definition of what God is would not apply and we would never have gotten stuck in this trap. The reason this is an invalid arguement is that you can never enter it. The two arguements chase each others' tails in a circle, with no end, and no beginning.
If we were to jump into this arguement simply because it works, we could jump into all sorts of lies. Consider:
Why should we drive on the right side of the road?
Because that is the law. And the law is the law.
But people also drive on the left side of the roads, because that is the law where they are from. An argument with the basic structure of "A is A because A is A" should be laughed and scorned at, not taken to heart in one of life's most perennial questions.
Moving on to personal case studies, that is, personal experiences, these are also unreliable. Sensation and perception can not be relied on. The stove didn't seem hot before you put your hand on it. And the straw doesn't really bend when it's submerged underwater. There isn't really toast burning, you're just in deeeeeeeeep trouble. Things don't really shrink when you walk away from them. Hot peppers aren't actually hot. Sensation can be distorted by thousands of every day things.
While it is true that sensation is used in scientific discovery, it is used alongside of tools. If there were a scientific way to prove the existence of God, I would be all for it. Saying; however, that you can sense or feel God's [insert random chosen adjective here] or presence is completely ridiculous. Can you also feel the number I have in my head? Or see what colour my aura is? Probably not. And don't ever bring the word "feel" into a rational argument.
The best way I have seen to prove the existence of God is Aquinas' theory of medieval synthesis [The most famous quote of this is "since therefore grace does not destroy nature, but perfects it." Here, grace is theology, and nature is philosophy. Aquinas reasoned that philosophy could not aquire divine knowledge -- and it's true. Or at least I've yet to encounter any perfect arguements for the divine. To compensate for philosophy's ineptness, Aquinas reasoned that we must also apply theology, or take Divine Revelation by faith, in order to learn of the divine. Problem : you can not use theology as a way to argue the existence of God!!
In respect to the other proofs offered by Aquinas (namely, from the first article of the first question), from what I have read of his Summa (only the first question -- it's dull stuff and insanely long. That one page is 1/10 of one of the questions. Aquinas compiled 99 questions plus two appendices, basically questions, into the Summa Theologiae) they seem to be mostly cop-outs. For example, the arguement of efficient cause states that something had to cause the existence of things. That must be God. There's a bit of a jump there, considering nothing ties the required spark of existence to God besides folklore (though those who believe in God have no trouble believing that there is nothing that sparked His existence), and, furthermore, it assigns a role to God before proving that He exists. In the end, we are to infer that God exists because he does a plethora of things like that. Again, a circular argument.
No more Bible. No more Qur'an. No more stories of internal experiences. They aren't reliable.
And besides, you don't read the Bible or the Qur'an. They simply no longer exist, especially the Bible. There have been so many alterations of the original text that there is no way to tell what the original said. For example, the Bible says, on homosexuality, that if man does unto man as man does unto women it's a horrible sin. The original text was ambigious. A more accurate translation could have been "if man do unto people as man do unto person" (i.e., orgy). And anyone who can quip the King James Bible as the Word of God has got the be kidding. The Bible wasn't written in English. I do not know much about the Qur'an, but I assume there are those who would quote English translations (and transliterations, due to errors) as Divine Word.
Unless you can find a manuscript, you most likely are not reading His words. Are you familiar with telephone tag?
Use cold hard reason and facts.
And on the subject of proving that something does not exist, how do you do that if science and reason have thus far proved unsuccessful?
Do we agree that something either exists or doesn't, or is there a shared quality defining things that neither exist nor not exist?
Surely, in disproving the existance of something, you are proving that it doesn't exist.
I personally don't believe in God, but I think it's a good thing that many people believe in something. I do believe that thinking positively will get your positive things for your life. Same goes for negative thoughts.So that's what I see good about religion, you're thinking good positive stuff, which in the end will bring you good things to your life. Plus, you believe in a God that is somehow protecting you and that you can pray for stuff you want. If you have a sick child or relative, you pray to God and have faith that your loved one will get better. While there might not be a "God" taking care of your loved one, I'm certain that your prayers to "God" will translate into positive thoughts and therefore good things, like your loved one getting better, and when a lot of people do the same, that's a lot of positive thinking.Why don't I believe in God? maybe because I need to see things before I believe it, I'm a man of facts, I don't believe the earth was created in seven days, I believe in evolution, that makes the most sense, again, for me, a man of facts.How would religion explain the bad things happening to the world if God only wants good things to us? Oh yeah, that's why they invented the devil too. It's all a well-made story put together in ancient times. But don't get me wrong, if you believe in God (and you should) then it's ok. For you, God exists and you're happy. For me, God doesn't exists and I'm happy too.
God existed. look at the places around u... Look at the universe...look at the world's nature... do u tink it all happened cz of BIG BANG??GOD DID IT!!Enaf proof d.
Yes, GOD exists. How come we people have a very perfect brain if we originated on monkeys(Evolution stuff). Where did the sun came from? the galaxy? and the earth if GOD do not exist.
This is one of my favourite topics to debate about, so I'm really glad it's been brought up. Here we go, .One of my first, and main points is the following. Some of the first main Gods were those of the Greeks (e.g. Zeus, Athena, Ares, etc.). They "ruled" for several hundred years, and many myths and legends were made up. However, once the Romans took power, the gods 'changed' - different names (Jupiter, Artemis, Mars) but basically the same Gods. Now, for nearly a thousand years, these Deities "existed", exacting worship and prayer from millions of people. However, all of a sudden, Jesus Christ appears in 0 A.D, and a whole new God is suddenly created, who supposedly made the entire Universe? Then, when the Emperor Constantine came around (Somewhere in the late 300's) the Pagan gods simply... disappeared! The Christian God suddenly became the ruling being of Earth (or at least Europe). I don't believe that Gods which held power for thousands of years could suddenly vanish, and some newbie pops up and takes over completely. Beliefs that had been around for ages were worthless, and the new ones, about events that happened BILLIONS of years before suddenly comes up? It sounds a bit suspicious to me. My second point is this: There are billions of Christians on Earth (Yes, this is the religion I'm focusing on), yet "God" lets tens of thousands die every day? Young children, babies even, who have never had a chance in life simply don't deserve to live. Yet rich "Christians" in North America and Europe live in enormous houses and are "good Christians" because they go to Church once a week, and donate $100 at Christmas. I don't see how anyone can call them self a true Christian while they still have a single penny, and aren't wearing rags. It sickens me how many people I see who are rich and do nothing to help the others in their world, while believing they're strong followers of ANY religion.Now, my third point. God sends disasters upon man kind to "punish them for their sins". To me, any true god would not let any people die, no matter what they had done. No matter what someone does, no one truly DESERVES death before their time. Any real god would never allow war, hunger, disaster, or sickness to happen at all! They had the power to create universes, why can't they stop a war from happening on one measly planet? My fourth point: The papacy. It absolutely SICKENS me when I see how the Pope, and other high Bishops of the Papal Government live. They have extravagant vehicles, clothes, and food. The Pope is supposedly the closest person to Christ on Earth, yet how could he be so unlike Jesus and be so close? Jesus gave all he had for others, and even if he wasn't the son of god, he truly was a great man. The Pope and other Bishops on the other hand live like Kings, while millions of others are starving and dying of sickness. If all of the billions of dollars that the Church has went to the poor, the world would be a much better place, and the Pope would be more of a true Christian. Also, all of the buildings that have been made through the centuries - yes, they are all very beautiful, but if I was a God, I would not care the least about it. I would prefer that it instead is sold to make money for the needy. After all, isn't that what it says in the Bible?My fifth and final point of this "mini essay" is: All of the other modern Gods. There are probably over a dozen Religions in the world at this time, and all of them believe in different Gods. I don't understand how all different Gods could have all created the same universe, when each religion claims "their" god did it? There are billions of Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Jews, and millions of others in the world, yet they all believe that their ideas are true. If someone can logically explain to me how the Ancient Gods simply disappeared, and the others "sprang up", I may very well become religious (yes I am an Athiest).That's my two cents .
Ok I hope no one takes this personally, this is my point of view about religion.Hey Maxfelgar, I agree with you with some on your statements. But I must say, I do NOT believe in God as they try to describe it.Some say he's the Creator of all things, he brings miracles and hope to the people.Let me tell you what I think.I recently watched this movie "The Secret", that is (obviously) about a secret, that was well hidden from regular people, and only important people we know nowadays have been linked somehow to the knowledge of that secret. Basically the secret is about "thinking" positive stuff, always positive, and you will get good stuff. For example, if you want a car, you should always think of the car, but not just that, also thinking that you WILL OWN it, or that you actually own it, and those thoughts are sent to the universe and they come back as positive stuff.At first I was skeptical about that idea, but now that I think of it, it all now makes sense. Religion and the secret. What is religion all about? at least I can tell from a Christian Point of view (I was one). They always make you think positively, that a God up there is watching over you, and that you should pray to him and never commit sins and whatever. All that stuff leads to thinking positively, which would translate (according to "the secret") into good stuff sent from the universe. So to sum it up, religions are there to make you use "the secret" without actually being aware of it.I will say this once more, I do not believe in God as they portray it, like the father of Jesus or something, the "Creator" or anything of that sort. I don't believe that "God" (image of a man) created earth and life as we know it. I, as a scientist man, believe in actual facts, like evolution. I also believe in the Big Bang Theory, which tells that a huge explosion took place in the universe that created planets and stuff. If you want to call that energy that caused the big bang "god" then OK, that might be your God, but not a "man" or something that is in the sky or something.I also don't believe in church. Probably because in most christian religions (that I know of), they ask you for money and most of the time you don't know where that money is going to. Yeah because, being a "Father", is a job like any other, and you need to receive your monthly payment. I get it.But there's this one thing I must say about religion, part good part very wrong. For example, if it wasn't because of religion, stealing/killing or other sins will be OK, or at least a killer or a thief will not feel bad when performing such acts, because they do feel bad when they think of God after what they did. So if it wasn't for religion, they wouldn't feel bad at all. But that same thing is also very very wrong. Why? Because, Religion is what have caused War in the World. While Religion tells you about peace, and brotherhood, love, they together do the exact opposite. One Religion doesn't come along too good with other religions, and if there weren't any, I think terrorism wouldn't exist.And also for me, that "God or Devil" stuff is just crazy. I mean, if a miracle happens, they all say "thank god!", but if something happens they inmediately blame the devil. There is where balance takes place. I guess you all are familiar with the ying yang, good/bad, black/white, etc etc. Not everything that happens in the world is good, because there are bad things too that religion couldn't explain, so they also created a devil figure, to blame for all the things that go wrong. And it's logical, because people always need someone to ask favors to, like God, and someone to blame for bad things that happen, like the Devil. Now, imagine that you are in a dark alley, and suddenly you see a man with a gun or weapon running towards you. What would you do? I'll tell you what I would do; pray to God. And I don't believe in God! but why? because that's the good thing about religion, you can always have someone inside you to ask for favors or to simply talk to. You have 'God' there with you, if it wasn't for God, then what else could I have done to protect myself? I'm not saying that by praying to God that man would have just walked by (might happen), but at least praying to God in such situation gives you HOPE, and you are the one who choose to have faith in God or not. I choose not, but I'll pray to God anyways if something bad is about to happen, just because we, people, need someone to ask for help.So I'm sorry if I'm hurting anyone's feeling, it's just my opinion. I do respect those who choose to be religious or to believe in God. Believing in God is a good thing, you'll probably be happier than me, but now that I understand things, now that I see the big picture, I can be happy knowing that God does not exist, for me. I'll say this once more, Religion is a good thing, believing in god is a good thing, and everyone should believe in God, because the day we choose not to, that will be the end of life.
You made me think of another point, Mike. If there was no religion in the world at all, there would have been virtually NO wars *ever*. Think about it: The Crusades, World War 1 and 2, and in some ways the Korean/Vietnam War all were influenced by religion. If there hadn't been any there would hardly be any reason to fight.
I do not believe god exists. I was raised as a Presbyterian (Christian), however, as I became a teenager, and learned more about Science, I started believing ideas related closer to Darwinism and believing less about God. Also, since many other things in the Bible hads been proven wrong I had no reason to believe any of it. However, when people relate to God as a form of energy, I could find somewhat of an understanding in that.
Coming from both a Catholic (ex) and biological background, I can say I've seen and read deeply into both areas. As I am a biologist, I firmly hold the belief that there is no god and that our creation is down to simple genetics and evolution. I just find it too difficult to accept that an idea (which is outdated) to be true. Religion was a powerful tool in the dark ages, which was able to guide the weak and teach leanings to the masses of uneducated people everywhere. It gave them hope in an otherwise hopeless world. Since then, things have changed. As a race, I believe we need to concentrate on each other and not our separate religions. If not, I believe we will eventually tear ourselves apart. We can, as a race, develop space travel, surgery, physics, technology etc.... but we can't let go of a belief in a god? That, I'll never understand.
Some people believe that god exists and some do not. It's a difficult question though.
Every creation has a creator, the world didn't just pop out of nowhere. Energy can be transformed not created. So there had to be something that started the world. There are many theories about how the world started. The most common one is the big bang which says that every thing was inside a small sphere with infinite desnsity which exploded and created everything. Where did the sphere come from?Also people researching the big bang theory say that if any thing was a bit different, whether it was the mass released or timing or speed of the moving matter , the world wouldn't have been created. If the mass was slower everything would have collapsed back to the sphere. If it were faster , planets and galaxies would not have been created.Thats the world, as for life , i don't know any chemical or scientific explanation that says X + Y--->Life I am not discussing any certain religiousity here, I am just saying that God existing makes sense, cuz if God didn't exist, where did we come from?Some might say where did God come from? well i can't anwser that. Because if i said God came from X, then X would become God because X can take back God the same way it brought it. Thats why there are religions, to explain what we can't understand and to give many of us a reason to wake up everyday (belief in a better place after death). If there were no religiousities or believes in God. Every one who approaches age of death would either freak out and go on a killing spree or lock him self up and live in sadness. A little of topic here:)Any way, i believe God exists because of both religious believes and scientific explanations.
There are a number of influential God-people out there, those who venture out to hard situations in Faith, who testify that God gets them through situation after situation. Apparently being with them is pretty evident... but it would require something of Faith to put yourself in a situation to find out. It's almost like God is saying, "try me and see, but don't expect me to show you evidence if you're only interested in the safe seat. I don't go by your rules."I remember a number of years back when I took up a Flatmate (kind of a "good deed" when flats were hard to find after I'd landed this one in difficult times) who turned out to be an alcoholic... not a hardened one by any means. He never threw up anywhere but would occasionally comatize himself or have police knocking on my door at 3am to drop him off. Needless to say there were issues in trying to get board payments out of him etc. I was a bit young at heart then and couldn't bring myself to kick him out.When I tried to reason with him about payments etc, he got abusive. He attacked my church-going manner along with everything else. He said religion was fake, and too authoritarian which meant it contradicted any loving God. I didn't have an answer for him. Frankly it felt like God was hiding when I needed Him to step in. I went away "to do the washing" but was fuming. There were a few expletives (I really don't think God minds swearing btw) and up in the laundry I got this... kind of a vision. It was these words that just appeared in my mind. I couldn't shake them out. All they said was "ROMANS 13". Eventually I pulled my bible out of my back pocket and was surprised by what that chapter read.To cut it briefly, the chapter directly contradicted, piece by piece and very clearly what my flatmate had been saying against me. I was stunned by the relevance of it. I raced down the street and there he was smoking away... I asked if he minded me reading the passage... he did not. When I finished, he dropped something in front of me. "What's this?" I asked."There ya go..." he replied "my first down payment."Now, I won't say that was the end of all problems or anything, but the same as above. It sure reconfirmed a God-reality to me when I needed it. And if I hadn't put myself out in the first place, getting the flatmate in, and then trying to live out the faith... I guess I wouldn't be any the wiser.
What scientific explanations? If science could prove god, wouldn't we all believe in it? That's why I'm an atheist!!! There is no scientific explanations! lol
Any way, i believe God exists because of both religious believes and scientific explanations.
Let me first start by saying yes I believe God is real and created everyone and everything.Now I comes down to this, what seems more probable? That the entire universe was once a hot ball of matter and then one day desided to blow up aka the big bang theory and then every thing was tossed across the universe and turned into planets and suns and the planets developed a atmosphere where gasess could be contained. So far it sounds pretty unlikely to happen but wait it gets more unlikely. Then after all the planets were in place life appeared some how as single cells and then magically turned into fish over millions of years. Then those fish grew legs and started breathing air. Now we'll skip ahead a bit because I don't want to ramble on and on. A big ball of fire hits the earth and kills a lot of the animals allowing the mamals to take over the world and turn from apes to humans.OrThat there is a God that alway is and aways will be that created the entire universe the way it is. This way sound a lot less complicated doesn't it?Eirther way there is something that has been around for ever. Which was it the universe or God. Most people don't understand the God is out side of time because he created time. Science doesn't aply to Him. He made science He made everything. The universe just doesn't make itself. So now your probably saying if God is real why can't I hear/see/feel Him. First off people did see Him when he came down to earth to teach people the word and then died for your sins. Well he could have been a normal person. Does a normal person come back from the dead three days after everyone saw Him die? Back to the why can't I hear/see/feel Him, you can you just aren't tring hard enough or the devil has your ears covered from God's word. That can be fixed by comiting your life to Jesus. Only then, after you hear His voice, can you answer the question is God real.God is real.
What sounds more plausible:Maths, physics, geology, biology - all are quantifiable and well established in our society. We take what actual, physical evidence we have (fossil record, genetics, geology etc.) and work on theories which again, are based on scientific / quantifiable evidence. Evolution is very much at the centre of everything and is driving us onwards all the time. There is no belief or faith, nor any assumptions that this is life and it was made for us. I personally feel it is just ignorant to think that we're the centre of the universe. Like I said, 500 years ago, when we had little understanding of science, the prospect of an omnipotent god what had all the answers to our questions would have been welcomed by many. Now we have a higher understanding of ourselves and science, we can throw away the simple notions of creationism and embrace the universe as it really is. orGod, angels, devil etc - are really in control of this planet (and the universe - which we are the centre of) and that 4000 thousand years ago (forgetting the dinosaurs - they're just a trick by god) he created the earth in 7 days (1,000,000 + species). He's omnipotent and infallible and all knowing of everything. If we live by his old, outdated rules, we go to his magical place called heaven. There, we live for eternity in peace and harmony. If we're bad, we go to hell and meet the devil, who will punish us for an eternity in hell fire. Don't worry though, god still loves us (Oh yeah, there was some guy called Jesus also - but that is another story).I know which is just a good story and which is real. Will people, 1000's of years in the future find a Harry Potter book and start believing in that too? I can't tell the difference if I'm completely honest.
It seems much more probable that God created everything than it does that everything just fell the way it is and life just appeared one day and turned into humans. God lives outside of science because he created it, he created time and everything else. Jesus was killed in front of tons of people and then tons of people saw him alive three days later, explain that.
Hello everyone,I am a believer. And I think God is completely a big fact no one can deny. Why ? Only 1 reason to say there is a God is (for me) 1) The existence of PI . Pi is an unknown number. As you know about Pi. Its in everywhere.. All our technology is based on pi. And we still do not know what pi is. Pi is the factor of God. I think God is telling us that 'you slaves has nothing but what I let you know'. And he is not letting us know. the others are .. 2) There is no proof of nonexistence (or absence). It is a very well known scientific rule that nothing on earth is completely destroyed nor created. So human can not create, can not destroy . Both creating and destroying are the powers that are subject to GOD. Forming any thing from the world or changing the form of an object is not creating or destroying. 3) Absence itself is not a thing. It's a think of mind. Maybe just like GOD. If you think there is an absence than you have to accept there might be a GOD. Accepting that everything is created by nothing and nothing is existed is such a silly thing. I think thinking of a GOD who created all the things and all the worlds are much more reasonable. 4) Our GOD (I mean of Islam) is not like your way of thinking GOD of yourself (I mean to the un-islamic people). Our God is only one and only. Our god is powerful and full of wisdom. My God is the Lord of the Science and Math and Technology. Nothing in technology or science is against my God or my religion. Islam is very badly known in the world but the real Islam is far from the bad things you see hear or learn. My God created the PI, the math and the sciences. Its a very very long story.. I wish I could tell all I know.. But briefly Trust me there are so many signs to the Existence of GOD.. 5) Everybody knows that Computer Technology is based on Zero's and One's 0 , 1 . and everybody knows that if it is possible to make it 0,1,2 the technology will be tripled by speed. But there is no chance of doing it now. And There will not be a chance.. Do you know why ? Because God shows us that the technology is based on his knowledge.. O(zero) stands for NONEXISTENCE and 1(one) Stands for creation. Both of them are the powers that God Has.. You may have another explanations for Zero's and One's but my way of thinking is this.. Because.. In Islam there will be the judgment day. And before that day there will be a total destroy of everything but god.. and After that Destroy there will only be GOD and the NONEXISTENCE. Zero and ONE . After that God will create everything back.. That moment is an incredible time.. zero and one is nothing but numbers but its incredible.. Everyone who knows about math will accept that Zero and ONE are the most problematic numbers. They are extremely basic but extremely complex. Zero divided by one and one divided by zero are complex. and there are many many things about one and zero. As you know Zero is the last number found.. Because Zero is nothing.. and there is nothing to prove that Zero exists. and so on.. If anyone is interested in this subject and my words he/she can mail me.. Thank you all, for reading the words I typed..
I do come from a very catholic and muslim religious country and in many ways, influences me and my being a person. Yes, now that I am also an agnostic, part of me still has fears of dying. Though I already have kids, I give them the independence of choosing their beliefs. There is nothing wrong about religion and beleiving or disbeleiving God. The only point of its existence is because people need some sort of a barrier to keep them reminded about social norms which prevents them from being insane or lawless like other animals.
Probably in my later years, I will searching for a religion which will comfort me on my last hours. It would be painfull but, as what Darwin "I am not in the least afraid to die."