Honesty Rocks! truth rules.

Evolution Or God... How were we created?

HOME      >>       Science and Technology

HTML_Guru

Oh boy... I don't even know if I want to attempt to explain my opinion to you (as in anyone looking at this).I will say this: I don't believe in the Human evolution from apes... or anything for that matter. Also, I don't believe in a God RIGHT NOW that grants miracles and gives life and so on and so forth. So you have to wonder, what might my view be on the matter.It's as such: do anyone of you have the capacity to believe that perhaps humans are in charge of themselves. Maybe in the first place there was no evolution, but in the first place SOME supreme being created life. Obviously SOME supreme being would have had to.Through both the views of God and evolution, I think that both were essentially created as they are now to justify some form of illresponsibility.Why couldn't we just be repsonsible? Us, ourselves... not God or evolution.


tluu

i believe in god and in your son..


HTML_Guru

Hmm... I don't have a son. Do you know something I don't?!... B) (Excuse my spam - if it is one; if it's not; this doesn't apply)


Kid Saiyan

O k a y...getting kinda off topic here....err...anyway!I think that Gd does exist since i am a religous person. Thats not the point here anyway..havent you noticed some flaws in the in theory of evolution lately?If we were apes in the beginning, then how did we lose all our abilities to jump from tree to tree in jungles and climb up trees so fast. And also, the apes had to be created in the first place as well for them to actually have evolved into us...Even if i ignore that, there is still the unexplained questions...How did people suddenly appear on the earth when it was created, no matter how it was created in the first place..Answert that...if you can!


webdesignunlimited

I believe that evoloution is true, because we are so alike to other animals such as the ape, for there not to be evoloution. But, I do believe in a God. Not a man with a white beard as such, but something that did actually create the universe and everything in it. Therefore, I think evoloution is Gods way of creating and making new kinds of life.


Logan Deathbringer

Logan, first I would like to say that I am responding to your post because I found it interesting not because I wish to refute everything you say.  I have had so many people automatically assume this and obvious confusion results because they cannot see the validity of the refutations which I am not making.

1064323171[/snapback]


Hey no problem I like having a good discussion, if not a good old fashioned challanging debate.

 

Indoctrination really has very little to do with it.  In our society people make their own choices about what to believe and they change their minds all the time.  What you are really saying here is that you think the rejection of evolution is unreasonable and therefore anyone who does this must be crazy or deluded.  You are wrong.  People can and do believe in just about anything for reasons too numerous to count.  Reason is not a one way street, it is more like an infinity of parallel worlds because it must begin with assumptions, postulates, or first principles.

1064323171[/snapback]


Now I have to STRONGLY disagree with you on this point. First off to make things clear here before people get the wrong idea about what I'm about to say...I live in the U.S.A and am VERY patriotic. My family has a strong and proud military service record, and if ever called upon by my country I would defend my fellow citizens up to my last breath. Although, that does not mean I totally agree with the decisions of our government. That asside I must say that from the day we are born, whether we are americans or from any other country, we are "indoctrinated" from day 1. The extent of it just depends on where your from, both the country and the area you grow up in. Indoctrination is just a part of life, just like religion and science.

 

Religion has only been used as a convenient excuse for war and abuse when that seemed possible, but it has more often been simply ignored because it gets in the way.  I mean get serious, where exactly was religion in the two world wars?  And what about the atrocities committed by the communists in their cultural revolutions in the name of their anti-religious sentiments.  Do you really think the conflict in Palestine is about religion?  The muslims have always been 1000% more tolerant and sympathetic with the Jews than Christians have, until we decided that they had to give up their land for them.  Ok, so what about the crusades?  Religion was a convenient excuse for these barbaric conquerers of the Roman empire to continue their pilliage south, but the victims were often other christians.  So people like to parrot this nonsense about religion being the cause of war, but I think it is time for people to grown up.

1064323171[/snapback]


For the most part I have to agree with you here but at the same time I have to point out a few things. First off more people have been killed in the name of religion then for almost any other reason. Although one must also remember that its not religion itself that calls for murder and war, usually, its those that use religion to control others that do.

 

Well, clearly I am saying that it really must be both, but we really don't want to turn the clock back and mix up science and religion back together again.  In science we have learned that sometime apparently contradictory explaination are required for a real understanding of things (the photon is both a wave and a particle).  But, on the other hand, not everyone can do it, so we need tolerance and even appreciation for people who are different.

1064323171[/snapback]


Too true we do agree for the most part but on the subject of the photon...isn't it a partical thats travel patterin is that of a wave?

DigitalDingo

If we were apes in the beginning, then how did we lose all our abilities to jump from tree to tree in jungles and climb up trees so fast.

Thatâs the whole point in the evolution! You lose abilities and you gain abilities.For some reason the apes (that later would become humans) settled in the savannahs and vast plains instead of in the jungle and the forest. Out here they couldnât use their ability to climb trees, so over time they lost that ability. They didnât practise it, so it was forgotten so to say.
Instead, out in the vast plains it was really useful to be able to see far away. So over time the apes began to walk on the hind legs, but the price was that they couldnât run so fast. But they had gained a very important ability; they could spot enemies from far distances.

And also, the apes had to be created in the first place as well for them to actually have evolved into us...Even if i ignore that, there is still the unexplained questions...How did people suddenly appear on the earth when it was created, no matter how it was created in the first place..Answert that...if you can!

Yes, the apes would have been there in the first place. And before them the dinosaurs. And before them the amphibians. And before them the single celled creatures â and so on. So every creature on Earth has evolved from single celled creatures!
People didnât just appear on Earth like you say. That process took billions of years! It all started out with small bacteria.
Now, nobody knows how life began in the first place. One theory is, has all the fundamental atoms and molecules were on Earth already and just by âan accidentâ some of these molecules formed the first life together.
Another theory is, that life came from space. Microbes or bacteria came travelling on a comet. They would probably âhibernateâ in some water ice in the comets core. When the comet crashed into the Earth the micro organisms were âwakenedâ. If this is true, then weâre actually aliens! Cool! :mellow:
These are just a few theories and there are many more of those.
To me it is seems very logical that we evolved from microbes instead of some supreme power created us.

mitchellmckain

Hey no problem I like having a good discussion, if not a good old fashioned challanging debate.

I on the other hand, do not much care for debate, I prefer discussion, which places a higher priority on respecting different points of view. I was in my high school debate class/club and I think the experience was very valuable in developing my public speaking ability. But debate is too much about arguing for argument's sake, picking at words, intentionally misunderstanding and distorting the other persons point of view, and other meaningless tactics of rhetoric. I find all this a waste of time and tiresome.

Now I have to STRONGLY disagree with you on this point.  That asside I must say that from the day we are born, whether we are americans or from any other country, we are "indoctrinated" from day 1.  The extent of it just depends on where your from, both the country and the area you grow up in.  Indoctrination is just a part of life, just like religion and science.

Oh but I never even implied anything different. But as much as people may try to indoctrinate, after a certain age it doesn't stick. After that it becomes a matter of choice. The active Christians are all converts.

For the most part I have to agree with you here but at the same time I have to point out a few things.  First off more people have been killed in the name of religion then for almost any other reason. 

Oh people certainly like to repeat this. But I challenge this. Prove it.

Six million Jews were killed because of their religion but not in name of any religion. More than twice that number were killed by the communists, and if you call what they had a religion then atheism is the worst religion of them all. Then there is the impressive slaughter by Ghingus Khan. Two world wars. The civil war. How does the example of the crusades and a few wars in Europe during the reformation, with religion as the thinnest excuse, justify this claim of yours?

In fact most of the time when it was about religion, the result was conversion by force rather than slaughter. It was often only afterwards that simple greed brought about the slaughter or enslavement of those which religion had previously converted.

Although one must also remember that its not religion itself that calls for murder and war, usually, its those that use religion to control others that do.Too true we do agree for the most part but on the subject of the photon...isn't it a partical thats travel patterin is that of a wave?

Well the original topic was "Evolution or God: How were we created"
But a photon, my pleasure..
There is no such thing as a photon at rest. So a photon is always a wave which often interacts as though it were a particle. Or if you like M theory (modern string theory) it is a vibrational mode of ten dimensional space-time, which like all forms of matter and energy can only interact in discrete units called quanta.

MajesticTreeFrog

O k a y...getting kinda off topic here....

err...

anyway!

I think that Gd does exist since i am a religous person. Thats not the point here anyway..havent you noticed some flaws in the in theory of evolution lately?

 

If we were apes in the beginning, then how did we lose all our abilities to jump from tree to tree in jungles and climb up trees so fast. And also, the apes had to be created in the first place as well for them to actually have evolved into us...Even if i ignore that, there is still the unexplained questions...How did people suddenly appear on the earth when it was created, no matter how it was created in the first place..

Answert that...if you can!

1064325231[/snapback]


Before you claim there are holes in evolution, be sure you understand evolution. You seem to have a number of misunderstandings.

 

First, Humans did NOT evolve from apes/monkeys as currently seen on earth. People say this only because they don't get it. Humans evolved from the same base species that monkeys/apes did. This means that instead of Apes/Monkeys being our great great...grandparents, they are more like our very distant cousins.

 

Second, there is the general misunderstanding that evolution happens linearly. As in, Species A becomes Species B becomes Species C. This doesn't really cover it. Species A evolves, and perhaps the population splits, and then there is Species B AND Species C, which are very similar to each other and to Species A. Also, Species A may not disappear when this happens. So, from Species A we get Species A, B, and C. That is just an example, and simplified, but hopefully that will clear things up on that point.

 

As for Apes needing to be created to evolve into Humans, as suggested, the above two points should handle most of that misunderstanding.

 

More to the point, no species needs to be 'created', all of them can evolve into increasing complexity. As I explained in a different post, Evolution doesn't just happen, it MUST happen. Attacks on how evolution happen are irrelevant, because in the end, whatever methods are involved, EVOLUTION HAPPENS.

 

You can put things in a lab and watch them evolve. I know, I have done it.


MajesticTreeFrog

Thatâs the whole point in the evolution! You lose abilities and you gain abilities.For some reason the apes (that later would become humans) settled in the savannahs and vast plains instead of in the jungle and the forest. Out here they couldnât use their ability to climb trees, so over time they lost that ability. They didnât practise it, so it was forgotten so to say.
Instead, out in the vast plains it was really useful to be able to see far away. So over time the apes began to walk on the hind legs, but the price was that they couldnât run so fast. But they had gained a very important ability; they could spot enemies from far distances.
Yes, the apes would have been there in the first place. And before them the dinosaurs. And before them the amphibians. And before them the single celled creatures â and so on. So every creature on Earth has evolved from single celled creatures!


This is actually incorrect, this isn't darwinian evolution, but instead Lamarckism, which is incorrect. From a species basis (as opposed to individual basis), there is no such thing as 'use it or lose it'. Species do not forget. And, while you may not realize it since people generally live in cities these days, humans are VERY good tree climbers. Maybe not as good as some monkeys, but pretty damn good in any case.

Similarly, You example of seeing far distance vs. running quickly is flawed. My cat can stand on its hind legs, and it can see far distances, but it is not a biped. There is not an 'ability trade off' in this sense. Realize that in evolution, everything must happen at a genetic level. So, The only time you will have a trade off is when the trade off is necessitated at the genetic level. Basically, if you have a gene that codes for something, it therefore doesn't code for all the other possibilities. Add in control genes and this gets complicated, so I am gonna stop here.

A good example comes from viruses/bacteria in sicknesses. These days, we have antibiotics, so viruses that cannot overcome these generally die. However, being resiliant to drugs is 'genetically costly' in that genes are spent on coding for characterists that help the bug overcome medicine INSTEAD OF coding for things that would make the the bug better at infecting things. Thus, when you remove the presence of antibiotics, the non-resistant bugs out compete the resistent ones, and the 'drug resistence' genes fall out of the gene pool due to natural selection.

Once again, slightly oversimplified, but hopefully this illustrates the principle.

MajesticTreeFrog

Six million Jews were killed because of their religion but not in name of any religion.  More than twice that number were killed by the communists, and if you call what they had a religion then atheism is the worst religion of them all.  Then there is the impressive slaughter by Ghingus Khan.  Two world wars. The civil war.  How does the example of the crusades and a few wars in Europe during the reformation, with religion as the thinnest excuse, justify this claim of yours?

1064326746[/snapback]


Communism is not the same as Atheism, I just want to point that out.

 

Religion has little to do with it I think. Extremism and hate, and envy and greed are the root cause. Sometimes these things stem from religious fervor, or hate of a certain religious group. Sometimes it is 'the glorious future' as said by the communists. In general, the explanation is something abstract and easy to BS to always back your actions. Religion can be very good for this, but so can any ideology.

 

Religious trappings or not, the sources of suffering are the same: Hate, greed, envy, attachment to views, seeing others as different from ourselves, less than human, as things.

 

So, the real test is whether or not the religion/ideology/whatever encourages this, either overtly or passively.


mitchellmckain

Communism is not the same as Atheism, I just want to point that out.

No more than Catholicicsm is the same as Christianity and yet Christians get blamed for everything the Catholics did. So likewise since the communists are a member of the group atheism and if atheism can be considered a religion then atheism is the worst religion of them all.

Religion has little to do with it I think.  Extremism and hate, and envy and greed are the root cause.  Sometimes these things stem from religious fervor, or hate of a certain religious group.  Sometimes it is 'the glorious future' as said by the communists.  In general, the explanation is something abstract and easy to BS to always back your actions.  Religion can be very good for this, but so can any ideology. 
Religious trappings or not, the sources of suffering are the same: Hate, greed, envy, attachment to views, seeing others as different from ourselves, less than human, as things.

So, the real test is whether or not the religion/ideology/whatever encourages this, either overtly or passively.

Couldn't agree with you more. The real culprit is human nature at its worst. And war and murder happen in spite of religion not because of it. Although humans will use any excuse they can find for what they do. But I think that history proves that religion is the hardest and rarest excuse of them all.

MajesticTreeFrog

No more than Catholicicsm is the same as Christianity and yet Christians get blamed for everything the Catholics did.  So likewise since the communists are a member of the group atheism and if atheism can be considered a religion then atheism is the worst religion of them all.

1064326934[/snapback]


No, communists are atheists (usually), but they are not related. Atheism is not a form of Communism, nor is Communism a form of Atheism. One can be an atheist and have nothing to do with Communism, in terms of historical lineage or ideology. Similarly, one can be a Communist and have nothing to do with atheism. That the recent communists were atheists is unfortunate, but not necessarily related.

 

On the other hand, Catholicism IS a form of christianity, and protestant forms of christianity, while not part of catholicism, ARE related, both historically and ideologically.

 

Which is why conclusions get drawn as they are.


hatim

This is something  I have been wondering on what other people think.
Many scientists believe that humans are an evolved form of the ape family, which include gorilla's, orangatangs, etc.

Many religious people believe what the Bible tells us: God created mankind, starting with Adam and Eve.


Well I am a Muslim by relegion. And the notion that Allah (God) created Adam , and then from Adam Eve is common to Judaism , Christianity and Islam.

According to Islam , the world was already there when Adam was created. Creatures and Plants of differnt kinds. And Quran supports evolution...but one thing which is still not clear to me is that if Adam was subjected to all that evolution.

Adam was different from every thing present on earth. The reason Adam looked like and ahs triats like mammals is that its probably the best shape for him to be.

But i just wanted to add to your knowldge that Islam has a very similar position to christianity.

A bizzare (or should i say ...strange) story in islam is of a nation of homesexuals ..which was turned to monkies/apes..may be there is a connection.

Kid Saiyan

Wow...so many different opinions everywhere!Well, recently, a friend of mine gave up his religion. And another person in my class keeps on questionning me about my religion trying to prove it wrong to me...he believes in Evolution all the way. Some things he said to me, made me think pretty hard. I came to question evolution and obviously, he didnt have any answers. I asked him questions like:1) How can a fiery meteor turn into apes?2) How come apes evolved into what we are now?3) How could the earths atmosphere be created from scratch?He had no clue. I was hoping, for his sake, if any of you could refresh my memory of evolution and answer me these questions?All i know for now is that there MUST be a GOD. Without God, nothing could exist. Read it and weep! Unless you are willing to challenge my way of thinking?!:)


DigitalDingo

1) How can a fiery meteor turn into apes?

A âfiery meteorâ doesnât turn into apes right away. And just to point it out: life is not believed to have come on a rock â more likely it came in a comet. Comets are also called âdirty snowballsâ which is very appropriate. Comets are a combination of dirt and ice and it is not at all strange to believe that bacteria could have survived in the core of such a comet.At the time when Earth is supposed to have been hit by such a comet there was no atmosphere â it came along with the water! So before there was water there was no atmosphere. As there was no atmosphere the comet didnât evaporate like meteors do nowadays.
The comet would crash down into the Earth and the impact made the ice melt and the bacteria to be released. The bacteria would then multiply and slowly new molecules were made by these bacteria resulting in water. And with the water came the atmosphere. I donât know the exact method used by these bacteria, but many bacteria and algae today make the same process so it is well known. Maybe a wise biologist could explain it⌠:)
It has actually been proposed to send some of these bacteria to Mars and within 100,000 years they would have turned the red planet into a new Earth we could inhabit.
When the water first was created the bacteria began to evolve into single-celled creatures and over time these became more complicated multi-celled creatures. This process continued for many hundred million years and small jellyfishes began to appear. The process went further and created fishes, amphibians, reptiles and in the end mammals. Small mammals evolved into bigger ones ending up with the apes.

2) How come apes evolved into what we are now?

The evolution of apes into humans took a very long time. You should be aware that we donât descend from the apes that live on our planet today. Rather apes and humans have a common ancestor. Both apes and humans have evolved since that time depending on where each species lived.
The apes lived in the jungle. Therefore it was an advantage to have long strong arms. As they rarely would walk on the ground they hadnât much use for running â ergo they didnât develop a good running technique.
The humans on the other hand would live at the steppes and wide open spaces. It was therefore an advantage to stand up straight and in that way be able to see enemies from a longer distance. The price was that we became slow runners.
Humans didnât need long strong arms to climb trees so over time the arms would get smaller.
After several million years the humans and the apes would be so different that they were considered two different species.

3) How could the earths atmosphere be created from scratch?

I think Iâve already answered that question. However youâll need someone else to explain to you the right biological and chemical reactions that happen inside the bacteria. Else Iâm sure you can find the answers somewhere on the internet. Remember Google is your friend! :)

ArmTheMob

This isn't a discussion and you can't have it both ways because that isn't the discussion. You can't say it's a mixture of both because the question isn't that. The question is how we were created. Did we come from god or did we get created from evolution. The notion that Adam was once part of a ribcage and eve was made of dirt is pure nonsense to me. And don't you try to explain it in scientific terms because that is how the bible said it happened. The bible is the only supposed proof of god so to deny its truth denies the existence of god. I posted something in the big bang thread and this theory will make a lot of sense to most of you. Here it is.

I've heard another explanation.  According to Steven Hawkings calculations, when suns explode they create black holes because of the immense gravity the sun has.  The whole universe will slowly turn into a bunch of black holes eating up everything.  Slowly they will all combine into one huge black hole.  The black hole will slowly pull everything into it.  It will have so much gravity nothing will be out of reach.  Then the theories start again.  Some people think this is the cycle of the universe.  After the whole universe gets pulled in the black hole will explode or implode creating the big bang and everything will start over again.
Makes sense huh?


Personally that combined with evolution seems A LOT more plausible than ribcage dirt theories. Half of it is based on actual calculations made by Steven Hawkings.

Another thing I want to point out to people who believe in god is the fact that he is the biggest mass murderer in history. He has the power to do anything he wants but he chooses to kill innocent people. What happened to his own commandments? If you don't believe me think about the great flood. Think of how many innocent people were killed. How many babies and children included. He had the power to only kill the evil but chose to kill everyone. If you can't accept that maybe you don't believe in god because the bible is the only supposed proof of him. To deny the truth of the bible denies the existence of god.

Well that's my honest view on everything. Kind of harsh toward religion but that's what I think and Iâm not going to beat around the bush or lie.

miCRoSCoPiC^eaRthLinG

Guys guys - have you all forgotten our dear friend Mr. Stork ?? Let me tell you - let me assure you, the first of the humankind was brought to this planet by a Giant Stork from Outer Space. Probably pirched here for a short break, but got shooed off by that comet, thus leaving adam behind. That, my friend, is the pure 100% unadulterated truth :) Now that you know, go home and let this ever-fuming debate rest in peace... he he.. :)


twitch

Guys guys - have you all forgotten our dear friend Mr. Stork ?? Let me tell you - let me assure you, the first of the humankind was brought to this planet by a Giant Stork from Outer Space. Probably pirched here for a short break, but got shooed off by that comet leaving adam behind. That, my friend, is the pure 100% unadulterated truth :) Now that you know, go home and let this ever-fuming debate rest in peace... he he.. :)

1064327667[/snapback]

:) Back 2 seconds and already stirring the cauldron. Lol.

 

I actually believe it was an army of micro-camels that will return one day and destroy the Earth. But hey. That is my copyright.

 

In all honesty, I think we evolved from a pool of amino acids formed from the secretion of single-celled amoebas. Or, as Stargate depicts, we may have been planted here by some intefering race.


scherzi

computerjoe ,

 

>of course god can exist .. just not as a being which some disillusioned biblical people may think . It can exist in any form imaginable  ... even Michio Kaku ( revered and famous scientitist )  has his thoughts on the mind of God . We have to think outside the box sometimes or else how can we call ourselves explorers , Stephen Hawking is a metaphysicist and even he reaches out to the divine in attempt to glorify the cosmos in some grandious meaning .

 

>But the big bang may be plausible if the higgs-field is proven true .. I have once thought the idea of a multi-verse but now I'm reflecting back on the subject of HOW it is possible for something , our universe ,  to be created out of apparently nothing .

 

>also ... Don't confuse creationism with religion .. although it may correlate with some facets of religion , much of the arguments supplied by creationists have made disassociative efforts in distancing religions involvement with all this , most of the well known creationists are actually scientists , mathematicians etc ...

 

as far as the implication of introducing intelligent design theory ,, then who knows  , conspiracy theorists are always ready to jump at such things .

1064318421[/snapback]


I agree about the possibility of God existence. Why not.

 

The key is that the Universe nature can be different of our mind structure in some way. In that case, we are not able to know its rules. Maybe our minds make us think that for every effect there is a cause, but perhaps that's not the way it has to be.